New for 08: 3-in-1 Smithy - Experience?

[enginerd]

There is a new Smithy unit for 2008, called the Granite 1324 MAX.

I'm seriously considering this. With almost every tooling/accessory you could ever need (from end mills to rotary table), its under $6k shipped.

Anyone see one yet?

I've never been a fan of these machines, but for my use it might work. I had to use an older Smithy as a prototype machining tool to do some race car engineering contract work, and it actually was not bad, but it was nothing like this new unit.

Thoughts?

https://www.smithy.com/product_home.php?cid=1&scid=21&pid=1008

http://www.smithy.com/uploads/GN-1324-MAX-web.jpg

[Detroit Diesel Man]

I would think for 6k you could find an older used Lathe and Mill and be able to do larger work...I hear of people getting nice older machines for cheap...unless room is an issue I'd go for older and independent machines, downside is they would need work to be ready to use...just a thought.


DDM

[mike944]

Damn, for 6K you can buy a nice used bridgeport, and a decent lathe, and still have money left for tooling.

I guess the most important question is.....do you have space for full-size machines?

I haven't used that particular model, but i have used the smithy, and other all-in-one machines before. They're kind of like a futon, Not great at either application, but they're functional as both. You'll spend time changing from lathe to mill, and back. They're not real rigid, and can't take heavy cuts, but it all depends on what you're doing, and how much space you have.

[-lecroix-]

... looks like all the other junky Chinese made 3 in 1 machines ... take your $6K and buy yourself a REAL Bridgeport knee mill and a Southbend lathe.

[Uncle Buck]

Not to rain on your parade but I will add my voice to the seperate mill & lathe opinions already given; with the provision of do you have enough space. If not a 3 in 1 may be the best you have room for. Good Luck

[OldCarGuy]

I’m with the majority on this call. You would be far better off purchasing separate machines for that kind of investment.

[wilbilt]

I just don't see anything smaller than a Buick being worth 6 grand. I also can't see taking a milling cut on a lathe carriage.

I don't have any experience with the multi-machines, so consider it an opinion.

[Uncle Buck]

I just don't see anything smaller than a Buick being worth 6 grand. I also can't see taking a milling cut on a lathe carriage.

I don't have any experience with the multi-machines, so consider it an opinion.

Nor do you want any experience on one; in particular not one that comes at so dear a price!:bounce:

[Darren M.]

Wait a year and buy one off Ebay for half.
Just my 2¢.
<---- Happy Midas 1220 xl owner. (Yes, I am merely a hobbiest with VERY limited working room.)

[Uncle Buck]

Wait a year and buy one off Ebay for half.
Just my 2¢.
<---- Happy Midas 1220 xl owner. (Yes, I am merely a hobbiest with VERY limited working room.)

Proving that there is a place for every machine and it sounds like a satisfied owner, congratulations. :beer:

[Darren M.]

Proving that there is a place for every machine and it sounds like a satisfied owner, congratulations. :beer:

Exactly and thanks! It's all about expectations and what a person is planning on doing w/ their tool. If one expects an 8ounce ball peen hammer to drive a rail road spike in 1 hit, that person better have the expectations of that hammer to be coming in from orbit w/o burning up too.
My rule #1 on decisions like this:
Make sure the tool CAN do the job, when used properly, before you buy it.

If I ever move into a true manufacturing process a new "garage"/shop will grace my premises, as will a dedicated lathe and mill. (If not a CNC flavor of both.) Then again, so will a new garage/shop. :D

[enginerd]

We have more than enough room (hell we could fit an entire CNC facility in here haha), thats not the issue. I don't want nor need a full mill/lathe. If I have serious work I'll go to a friends cnc shop and crank out what I need. This is for hobby/home "quick" use, for bearing cups, spacers, adapters, etc. 80% or more will be aluminum, so it will be high speed and nothing too strenuous.

The machine is $3500, and $2500 for stand/tooling/misc.

I would be doing probably 75% Lathe work if that makes a difference...

I have experience with the big expensive machines, from bridgeports to Haas. I do not need that type of capability for this application. I need something 'cheap,' Smithy has good support, I've used the a lower end product from them and it was ok, but compared to what this machine has over it, it should be significantly better. I am hoping to get some more first hand experience responses, maybe someone found a common problem, or knows of something that they specifically lack.

Later in life when I have settled down (I'm a youngen) I'll get some Haas toolroom CNC equipment for my home shop, but for now I really just need it to finish a couple projects.

The alternative would be to get a grizzly lathe and mill, like these. Again, this is just for a couple small parts and to have a machine in this shop/garage to do stuff on the spot, purely hobby, nothing big. This combo with a bench, and all the same tooling (also realize its a lot of tooling) would come out to ~$5k.

http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/pics/jpeg500/g/g0602.jpg

http://images.grizzly.com/grizzlycom/pics/jpeg500/g/g0619.jpg

[enginerd]

Note: I also had a $350 bandsaw in that order, so take off $350 off my quotes, sorry about that.

This one from smithy does not have the variable speed, but its $2k.

I think it has all the features I need, so I could deal with changing some gearing for when I have different speed requirements. Recalculated, $4200 including freight, all tooling, band saw, drill bits, vise, table, end mills, clamp kit, Ball nose end mills, edge finder, dial indicator/mag base, quick change tool post kit, etc.

I spoke to a shop I know down in VA that uses this model, and he said its worked great for the small items, like the ones I'll be doing, for Automotive Motorsports applications.

https://www.smithy.com/uploads/MIDAS-1220LTD_LR.jpg

[ar66]

If you're going 3-1, then I'd seriously consider this one (around $3k!):

http://www.shoptask.com/TRI%20POWER%20MACHINE.jpg
Shown here is the Shopmaster Tri Power by Shoptask (http://www.shoptask.com/index.html)

I bought the previous model, the Shopmaster Bridgemill (which was priced at just under $2k and a tad smaller). See "History" on their site.


With your budget, you might not only equip the machine (very) nicely, such as include a (pre-installed) DRO, but perhaps you may even be able to add some of the CNC features (all Shoptask machines are CNC-ready, see their site for details).

I used mine pretty much right away (on my back porch initially).
After only a view experiments, I was able to modify an old v-belt (dual) pulley and convert it into a serpentine belt pulley (absolutely no previous machining experience!):

http://www.madxj.com/MADXJ/technical/technicalfiles/ARyorkPulley/images/Pulley02a_sm.jpg
This is the pulley mounted, ready to be machined (this part came off of a 80s Volvo car. It is a York A/C compressor clutch pulley.)


http://www.madxj.com/MADXJ/technical/technicalfiles/ARyorkPulley/images/Pulley17a_sm.jpg
Here the dual v-belt pulley has been machined to accommodate a serpentine belt (that not all 'ridges' are available isn't critical for this application). An old (cut) serpentine belt has been clamped to the modified pulley for display purposes.


I am very pleased with my 3-in-1. It uses little space compared to three separate machines (which I'd love to have), and I also moved the machine twice half-ways across the nation (did it by myself, by disassembling it to 'movable' components).

A professional machinist (25 years +) later helped me to get better hands-on experiences. He was rather impressed with this machine. He thought of getting one himself! However, since these machines are priced aggressively, it did require some minor adjustments/modifications (to please my machinist!).
If it weren't for those many hours fine-tuning it, I'd consider the larger model myself (taking advantage of Shoptask's buy-back program).

Anyway, perhaps you could even get one of these:
http://www.shoptask.com/PATRIOT%20FRONT%20VIEW.jpg
Shown here is their Patriot model of the Tri Power. It is a fully US-assembled machine (see their site for details under "Patriot").

...and no, I am not associated with Shoptask, but I am glad I got their machine.

:)

Good luck,

AR.

[89Vette]

I know you said you broke your Shoptask down into parts for the move, but how big/heavy are the parts? How does it arrive initially, broken down into parts or all together? In one big box? I have been thinking of getting one of these for years, but had no idea how I could actually get it in my garage. I do have an engine hoist now, which I am sure would help.

I agree separate machines would be ideal, but I have no metalworking experience and would be afraid to buy used machines fearing I was buying junk. Used Bridgeports in my price range look like junk. I have a large garage, but I don't really want to devote the space for separate dedicated machines.

[Uncle Buck]

[QUOTE=89Vette;145059] I agree separate machines would be ideal, but I have no metalworking experience and would be afraid to buy used machines fearing I was buying junk Used Bridgeports in my price range look like junk. I have a large garage, but I don't really want to devote the space for separate dedicated machines


I will offer my favorite idea for the un-schooled budding machinist. Check into your local community college for night class offerings in machine technology classes (as they are frequently called) and get a semester or two of knowledge and experience for usually no more than about $200-250 bucks a semester. Then you may have gained enough knowledge and asked enough questions to make a knowledgable purchase, not to mention the skills you are aquireing at the same time. I know the guy that teaches our local class has on many occasions accompanied students unpaid to go size up shop equipment before the student buys used equipment! There are still a few old timers like him out there still willing to lend a hand. All you have to lose is the time checking it out. :beer:

[enginerd]

Yep, I've considered the Shop Task. You do get a lot more for the money, twice the power, etc. I'll have to look into it again, thanks. I had my mind set on two separate machines, but recently decided a 3-in-1 would be the way to go for this location/application.

[ar66]

The Shoptask machines arrive (mostly) assembled in a crate that acts as the stand once unpacked. I picked mine up at the closest truck depot and hauled it home using a borrowed (accordingly GVWR'd) trailer. I unloaded it myself using a shop crane and a bit of creativity (the 1 foot of nasty hardened snow made this particularly interesting at the time).

Again, check their site (http://www.shoptask.com/) for the latest. Also, the owner there is great to ask all sorts of questions (before and, yes, also after the purchase!). Support is great, as long as you use the phone and talk to them directly.

If you're new to this, yeah, a shop class or the assistance of a machinist can go a long way...

Like I said, I really am glad I got this machine. I wish they'd still offer the earlier version though, the Bridgemill, since the newer Tri Power would've been (and still is) somewhat out of my price range.

Oh, and don't forget, the initial machine purchase is just the beginning of a seemingly endless spending spree thereafter (to get all the tools you'll need as a new machinist)...

:p

AR.

[-lecroix-]

Guys like myself love it when you guys buy that junk. It makes selling the good machines to you later so much easier. :D

[Danglerb]

You all know I am never in favor of cutting corners on tools, but while I was waiting for my wife to pick me up at HF I was flipping through the special order catalog by the door and looking at the deluxe $649 3:1 as well as the cheaper one. If your shop has two kinds of machine work, send it out and I need it now, why spend a lot for fancy large tool? Fabrication is about making a part to fit, not to spec isn't it?

[enginerd]

As long as its not more headaches than convenient, and as long as it does the job, it will work for me.

Maybe if I was working at a defense contractor I designed stuff for, then I would need a $250k mill, but this is for club racing...i don't need to hold a .0005 tolerance on 250,000 parts.

Unfortunately, I found a couple threads like this in other places: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47033 Kind of turns me off the Shoptask unit, and any 3-in-1 for that matter haha

Thanks for the comments/feedback, especially from the people who actually have one of the machines in question :)

CNCzone has tons of feedback, unfortunately I think they all have high standards because they bash every model out there, from all manufacturers lol

So I guess i'm back to sqaure one...getting separate bench top mill and lathe, like the grizzly.

These industrial Hobby Mills look half decent, $2k
http://www.industrialhobbies.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=IH&Product_Code=SQR_Mill&Category_Code=Mills

[enginerd]

Ok, so 3-in-1 is out, just too many reports of poor quality (not a big surprise). What about getting a grizzly like this, well under $3k shipped with table. I used a slightly larger version of this on a race team for 4 years, and it did the job for us, and held a tolerance. We never really had problems with it, and we had thousands of hours of use, it was abused, and took it pretty well imo.

http://www.grizzly.com/images/pics/jpeg500/g/g4002.jpg


The other option is the G0602 which I posted before, the big difference for me is the gear change required for speed changes...but since I mostly do aluminum, its not really that big of a deal. I probably could easily get away with the G0602, and with the G0619 mill, I think thats a great combo, and probably what I'll end up with.

[-lecroix-]

You really don't get it, do you?

[goodfellow]

I have a 3in1 from HF -- the larger version -- HF44142. At the time I was working out of a small one car garage/shop and there was no other option. I could wait to move and get more space and keep farming small jobs out to a local machine shop that was over charging me at every turn, or make a compromise and get an Asian machine.

I chose to do the latter, and I haven't regretted the decision at all. The machine paid for itself within the first year. It has limitations and is frustrating to use at times; such as having to tear down setups when switching form mill to lathe, and the milling head does have some flex along with limited travel. BUT, I've learned to live with these problems and just take my time to get where I need to go.

As most have stated already, seperate machines are much better and will give better performance. Older US equipment is nice, but unless you're experienced and know what to look for, you may wind up with a machine that needs a lot of expensive TLC.

[89Vette]

If I could find a class, you can be sure I would sign up. I did check around here and nothing is offered at this time unfortunately. I used to live in a Detroit suburb and there were never any classes there I could find either, which seems odd, but that was the case. Maybe it is a result of the influence of video games, computers etc. and the newer generations lack of interest in the trades (at least the youngin's in my family are this way).

Believe it or not, my father was a tool & die maker (mostly QC) at Bundy for 44 years and won't show me what he knows. He gave me all his tools, but has zero interest in showing me the ropes. I guess I can understand doing it for that long, but one might think some 'father-son' time would be enough enticement. I have tried several times to talk him into it, but no luck.

That is why I am afraid of used equipment and consider the 3in1's or maybe the Grizzly-type mini-lathe and mill (buying new). If I have to teach myself, at least the investment isn't huge. Plus, there is good support for the mini-stuff on the Yahoo forums. I KNOW THEY AREN'T THE BEST QUALITY, NO SMART ALECK COMMENTS PLEASE.

I am a long time woodworker, so I am familiar with machinery, but metal working seems like a whole different animal with the super tight tolerances necessary. I would never know if an important piece was missing from a machine or not.

[goodfellow]

Believe it or not, my father was a tool & die maker (mostly QC) at Bundy for 44 years and won't show me what he knows. He gave me all his tools, but has zero interest in showing me the ropes. I guess I can understand doing it for that long, but one might think some 'father-son' time would be enough enticement. I have tried several times to talk him into it, but no luck.


I am a long time woodworker, so I am familiar with machinery, but metal working seems like a whole different animal with the super tight tolerances necessary. I would never know if an important piece was missing from a machine or not.


Good points all -- In my part of the country (mid-atlantic) the local community colleges are dropping industrial arts at a rapid rate. So it's hard to find a good machining program unless you're willing top travel a couple of hours. If you find one, most of the time they are CNC oriented (for good reason) and don't offer a traditional option.

Also, it should be noted that most hobby equipment buyers are not out to become fullfledged machinists. I bought my 3in1 to make very simple parts and do basic repairs in support of my real hobby -- cars. I don't want to devote more time to machining than I do my car projects. If I have a very difficult job, I'll go back to the overpriced machine shop. I just wanted to make a few simple parts for my cars and motorcylcles -- and my 3in1 has allowed me to do just that.

[P-51]

I bought a 3 in 1 in Canada for a similar reason as most of you. Cars are my primary hobby, and I just want to make simple parts, experiment, and play with metal that my job as a Mechanical Engineer doesn't really allow me.

I bought the 3in1, and have been reasonably happy with it. It has actually more than paid for itself selling some real simple parts that I make and sell on the internet. It's just a little niche market, but I've sold about 300 parts at $20 each.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/robertlefebvre/pics/ShockShims.jpg

My crowning achievement was these camber plates I made from scratch, my own design, which I had to come up with because nobody else offered them for my car.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/robertlefebvre/pics/CamberPlate002.jpg

There's a bunch of other parts in assembly under the sheet metal which you can't see.

I'd never attempt to make these for a profit because it takes me several hours per set. But, I only needed to make two, and the machine did the job. I even achieved a reasonable bearing bore for the spherical bearings. I designed these from scratch using a Student Edition of ProE which I bought for $20.

Sure, I'd love to have "real" machines, but I just can't justify the space or money required.

I should also point out, that, I took a high school class to learn the basics, but it's not nearly enough to be proficient. I have made mistakes that would be VERY expensive on a real machine. If you don't have the benefit of proper training, which is hard to find these days, these little machines are good learning tools that are not as likely to kill you as a big one would be.

I don't know if some of the machines really are junk. It sounds like that Shoptask unit is. Mine was branded "Craftex", but I imagine there are others with a different name. It was made at the Yangzouh People's Factory or something like that, the instruction manual is printed on rice paper, and the drive belts are crap. But other than that, it has done exactly what I wanted it to do.

[eschoendorff]

My crowning achievement was these camber plates I made from scratch, my own design, which I had to come up with because nobody else offered them for my car.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/robertlefebvre/pics/CamberPlate002.jpg



What kind of ratchet is that?

[RAYJAY]

Ok, so 3-in-1 is out, just too many reports of poor quality (not a big surprise). What about getting a grizzly like this, well under $3k shipped with table. I used a slightly larger version of this on a race team for 4 years, and it did the job for us, and held a tolerance. We never really had problems with it, and we had thousands of hours of use, it was abused, and took it pretty well imo.

http://www.grizzly.com/images/pics/jpeg500/g/g4002.jpg


The other option is the G0602 which I posted before, the big difference for me is the gear change required for speed changes...but since I mostly do aluminum, its not really that big of a deal. I probably could easily get away with the G0602, and with the G0619 mill, I think thats a great combo, and probably what I'll end up with.



here is a great page on the grizzly/hf/imports, this might be the lathe i will be getting

http://www.bedair.org/9x20comments.html


Jeff

[hotrod66paul]

Does anyone own the 3-1 sold by Woodward Fab ???

[Nosman]

What kind of ratchet is that?

That would be a Mastercraft by Canadian Tire, I have a few of those myself.

[enginerd]

G4002 Seems like the best fit for me. $2700 shipped with stand. This is like the lathe I used on a race team for 4 years, and I know what it can do, definitely will suit my application. Plus, I know the lathe inside/out.

I will rarely do any milling, and if so it'll almost always be alum, so I might just pickup one of the real small ones like this:

http://www.grizzly.com/images/pics/jpeg500/g/g8689.jpg

[P-51]

The Ratchet? Why?

It's a Canadian Tire MasterCraft brand.

[HSS]

I just bought a Granite 1324 and am quite pleased. True, you can't build huge punchpress dies on the mill but it beats a hacksaw and file. I find myself leaving work a little early to go home and spend hours in front of my machine making hot chips. I've seen a lot of complaints on forums about having to tear down setups to go from lathe to mill and back on 3 in 1 machines. Sounds like these people don't have a whole lot of time and are in a great hurry. Personally, I don't mind. Usually something has to be removed from one or the other part of the machine before I can start a project anyway. I bought this machine to have something different to do from what I've been doing for the last 35 years. Burnout ya know? I like my Smithy.

[enginerd]

Just thought I would post what I ended up finally getting, the G0602. I have to get some oil before I can break it in. Other than a bent handle, and missing the 4jaw chuck (both which are already being processed...Grizzly fantastic service, its pretty damn nice for $1k.

The one major drawback is there is no indicator on the carriage...DRO is the future I think, because I kind of need it.

http://jaffster.com/misc/Misc/newtoy.JPG