please...let go of my nuts

[edl]

trying to find out some good techniques for removing nuts and bolts that have rusted together (or in some other way are fused (as opposed to stripped or counterthreaded) -

- saw this product referenced on another board...http://www.pbblaster.com/store/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=1

- have heard alot about heating/freezing - what is a good example of when, where and how to do this?

- but in a tight spot (like for 13mm nut way under the dash) that is not practical - i have seen some sprays that simple "freeze" - has that been effective for others?

- i have tried brake cleaner - it is certainly more effective than wd40 - but is not a cure all

- i have seen products out there that "eat" rust - Lowes and HFT carry a product called Evaporust - have used it (with some success) for submersing a rusted item - it takes rust off, but leaves a black residue - anyway, has anyone tried spraying this stuff on a rusted bolt/nut scenario as a way of unfreezing them?

AND...what have you tried? - what works? - what doesn't? - some famous grandpa's recipies out there? - thanks and happy first day of 2008!

ed

[bmwpower]

Always heat your nuts up real good before you spray them with something like PB Blaster. Seems to work better as the product tends to seep into the threads either because it's hot or as it cools...not sure which one, but it works. Try it.

[mhoffm911]

WD-40
Liquid Wrench
Hair dryer or heat gun
Canned air will get very cold if you blow it long enough

[PAToyota]

Kroil - www.kanolabs.com

[Uncle Buck]

Always heat your nuts up real good before you spray them with something like PB Blaster. Seems to work better as the product tends to seep into the threads either because it's hot or as it cools...not sure which one, but it works. Try it.

- have heard alot about heating/freezing - what is a good example of when, where and how to do this?

Depending on what you are working on you may need only heat! When working on a chassis component or at the vise, or anywhere you have no concerns about burning stuff up an oxy acetylene torch is all that is ever needed to loosen rusted up fasteners, in fact any flammable fluids that have been applied would in my opinion be a hindrence!

[gotmud13613]

The old candlewax trick has usually worked for me most (95%) of the time, heat the bolt up a little (not cherry red) touch a old candle to it and the heat will melt the wax and suck it into the threads, making it easier to remove.

[Yotaforce]

Canned air holding the can upside down! Don't breath while doing this though, it tastes terrible! Candle wax is also a good one. Hot torch flame, another good one. They all seem to have their own situations though.

[Blacknwhitepit]

trying to find out some good techniques for removing nuts and bolts that have rusted together (or in some other way are fused (as opposed to stripped or counterthreaded) -

- saw this product referenced on another board...http://www.pbblaster.com/store/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=1

- have heard alot about heating/freezing - what is a good example of when, where and how to do this?

- but in a tight spot (like for 13mm nut way under the dash) that is not practical - i have seen some sprays that simple "freeze" - has that been effective for others?

- i have tried brake cleaner - it is certainly more effective than wd40 - but is not a cure all

- i have seen products out there that "eat" rust - Lowes and HFT carry a product called Evaporust - have used it (with some success) for submersing a rusted item - it takes rust off, but leaves a black residue - anyway, has anyone tried spraying this stuff on a rusted bolt/nut scenario as a way of unfreezing them?

AND...what have you tried? - what works? - what doesn't? - some famous grandpa's recipies out there? - thanks and happy first day of 2008!

ed

PB Blaster works great. Sometimes a soak is required. Many claim Kroil or transmission fluid works well too. I have had a great deal of success with PB Blaster.

Be careful how you heat the metal, there is a little "Science" to this.

Simply this: When you heat metal you can anneal it or harden it

Annealing: When you think you will have to drill out a bolt; use this method (Think broken bolt in hole). This method changes the grain structure of the metal and makes it easier to drill.

Use a carburizing flame and leave a thin layer of carbon on the part. Switch to a neutral flame and heat the stud/bolt until the carbon is burned off. Then let the part cool to room temperature,then drill it out.


Hardening: If you still think you can get it out. This is what people think of when they "shock" the metal with something cold.

Heat the Bolt/Stud until it is bright red. Cut your flame, as soon as it goes from red to dull, blast it with water then try to turn the fastener.


NON-HEAT

Since your part is under the dash you might try this spray. It claims to Freeze the part and make it easier to come apart.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w209/blacknwhitepit/crc.jpg

http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|10918|309347&id=724486


Link to Old discussion on lubricants/penetrants (http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=72981)

Lastly, If you ever have a part that you can put the part in a solution (small) you can try electrolysis rust removal. Here is a link to a past discussion

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8586&highlight=sodium

Good luck!

-BWP

[edl]

thx all ... lots of good info here ... will start to apply these and share any learnings!

[MarksM]

+1 for Kroil.

[jay50]

+1 for Kroil.

What stores sell Kroil? I've heard about it, never seen it on shelves.
I'm a PB Blaster user.:)

[PAToyota]

Best of my knowledge is that it is only available through Kano directly - see my link in my post.

[Blacknwhitepit]

Check out Deeze nuts! :bounce:

This guy had an old shovel and used electrolysis to get the rust off. The Nuts and bolts came apart and were still intact!

http://www.davidbradley.net/ERR.html

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w209/blacknwhitepit/deeze.jpg

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w209/blacknwhitepit/deeze1.jpg


-BWP

[edl]

Best of my knowledge is that it is only available through Kano directly - see my link in my post.

have looked around for Kroil and have found a few sources (they come up if you google it) among those: Kano itself (which as far as i can tell is the cheapest); Ebay; and Eastwood.

Called Kano with some tech questions and can pass this along:

- it is petroleum based - so normal precautions re ventilation and skin contact

- its penatrating action is capillary based - tech said he has seen it climb up 8 inches of bolt - make what you want out of that

- said it attacks rust only and not paint or metal - given my research that makes is a "chealating" (sp?) product, that somehow bonds only to oxidized stuff and breaks it up - tech said he had never heard of the term

- there is no difference to efficacy using the aerosol v. bulk - they each perform the same

- if you buy in bulk, don't use a plastic spray bottle unless treated for petroleum use - use a metal one (this looks like it would be good: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=1102)

That's it - I will buy some (1 gal can) just to try it out - I also put a bunch of rusty bolts into Evaporust - it definitely works, but is more for parts off the car - i don't know if it would work in this application - you could spray it on, but it would evaporate and takes several hours (to overnight) to work.

Happy to hear other suggestions and experiences - thanks!! - ed

[JRGSPE73]

+1 for PB Blaster - I love the stuff.

I've found that if you apply Blaster liberally and let it sit for a while (15-20 minutes or so), most of the time the bolt will come out fairly easily. If that doesn't work, heat the nut/bolt up (I use a simple propane torch), douse it in Blaster right after you remove the flame (be careful for any flare up - the stuff is flammable after all), and try to loosen it up at that point - usually works for me.

[engnerdan]

I'm an ATF guy, because it works great, smells good (when burning) is one less aerosol can to store. Learned about it at my first paying job at a frame shop and thats all I have used since. A little heat and some ATF in a pumper can and your good to go.

I have also heard that wax is suppose to work well, with its natural capillary action.


-Dan

[M3Pilot]

You can order Kroil from Brownells.

[Red Green]

If there is room I use some PB blaster and a non-air impact driver. Also know as a knuckel breaker when you miss with the hammer and hit your finger or thumb.

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?P65=&tool=all&item_ID=1711&group_ID=223&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

[D KRAGER]

I work around lots of water and fertilizer...... not a good combo, torch is the only way in most instances for me. Heat the nut and not the bolt. Lot of times you end up cutting it off and installing a new bolt. I know that isn't the answer for everything, but that's usaully what happens around work.

Heat and cool I 've found works well sometimes. You heat it, nothing, get mad, go grab a soda at work, or beer at home. Come back to it later and it will come right off.

I know not everyone has access to a torch either... sorry for your luck.

[Major Ramifications]

Another one for Kroil. I wish they sold it in stores, though.

[bobss396]

Freeze-Off, nothing like winter for freezing your nuts off. I've always been an advocate of the "blue wrench", but not for under dashboard applications. Sometimes a localized Bernzomatic torch will do the trick, I keep old asbestos siding shingles around to use as a shield.

If you have an air chisel, turn it way down and use a punch and give each flat on the nut a rap. This works most of the time.

Bob

[sctattooer]

Kroil is the best! You can buy it at just about any marine store. It's used alot for removing prop retainers on salt water ships, and we all know what salt water can do to steel parts!

[nissan_crawler]

Yet another for kroil. Dad had a part on some farm equipment soaking in a gallon of wd-40 for a weak, it was still frozen solid. He put Kroil in it, and cracked it loose later that day. Our old 8n ford hadn't ran for 15 years, all the valves were frozen, kroil loosened them right up. Kroil is the only thing we use on planes at work. i love the stuff.

[goodfellow]

Kroil works great, but it's expensive.

About five months ago the "Machinist's Workshop" magazine had an article that compared penetrating oils. Kroil and PB blaster were rated as the top two, BUT a home brew mix of ATF and a small amount of acetone was considered to be just as effective as the top commercial products.

[edl]

thanks all - went with the kroil and am very happy with it - it is expensive as an aerosol - but what i did was to buy a refillable aerosl can from hft ($3) and a gallon jug ($30) - this ought to give me 6 cans - the can is filled with shop air to 90psi - it has a hose that goes to the bottom and the air pressure pushes it up - so no shaking - no can empty of air and have throw away some of the fluid - anyway...it is working for me - give it a try! - thanks again...ed

[porcupine73]

I like Kroil too. I later bought several other kanolabs products since they seem to work well. I just buy them all in gallon containers right from kano and then use the harbor freight diy spray cans, the goldenrod oilers from northerntool, and those little mini-precision oilers.

Yes I have learned that heating the fastener/area as much as practicable then applying the kroil and waiting a while if possible does wonders. I had some brake line tube nuts that were siezed up and over the years I had tried to free them up but always started to round off the nuts. Heated it with the yellow (mapp) wrench, sprayed the kroil, waited two days, and wow I could not believe it they all broke loose very easily. Now if I could just get the ball joint pinch bolts out without snapping...

I made up a mixture of a couple types of ATF and some co-solvents but haven't tried it yet.
http://www.porcupine73.com/pics/products/acetone-atf-1-sm.jpg
http://www.porcupine73.com/pics/products/acetone-atf-can-1.jpg
http://www.porcupine73.com/pics/products/kroil1-md.jpg

Oh also I have heard genuine beeswax works very well as a penetrant when the fastener is heated. I've tried it a couple times but not sure how much it worked though the fasetner came loose. I got 5 pounds gneuine beeswax from www.honeygardens.com (http://www.honeygardens.com)
http://www.porcupine73.com/pics/products/beeswax1.jpg

[Dstosh]

Anyone Use a product called Fluid Film? Great Product. Works well as a penetrant as well as a rust inhibitor.

[porcupine73]

Hi Dstosh and http://www.porcupine73.com/graemlins/welcome.gif to the board!

I haven't used fluid film, but I have heard of it, made by Eureka! I believe. Schaefferoil makes something called Penetro-90 but I haven't tried that either.

[Dstosh]

Hi Dstosh and http://www.porcupine73.com/graemlins/welcome.gif to the board!

I haven't used fluid film, but I have heard of it, made by Eureka! I believe. Schaefferoil makes something called Penetro-90 but I haven't tried that either.

Thanks. Im actually not to far north of you in Lockport. Fluid Film Will give you a free mini can if you request one.

[Kevin54]

i have tried brake cleaner - it is certainly more effective than wd40 - but is not a cure all


Kroil is good. PB Blaster is good. WD-40 is not for rusted stuff. WD-40 is a water displacement lubricant and does a great job of cleaning off road tar, but not great for rusted nuts and bolts. Kroil and PB work by capilliary action meaning it will wick back in between stuff. WD does not do a good job of wicking. Also when you go to take a rusted nut off, don't just jump on it and start turning one direction. Try to tighten it a hair, then loosen, then tighten, etc. You will get a lot further. Most people want to just get on it and try to loosen it until it snaps. Use a little heat, a little Kroil or PB and use the tighten, loosen method.

[george4]

I do not have access to the original material but I ran across this post on another forum while looking for something else:

"The April/May 2007 edition of Machinist's Workshop did a test of penetrating oils where they measured the force required to loosen rusty test devices. Buy the issue if you want to see how they did the test. The results reported were interesting. The lower the number of pounds the better. Mighty interesting results for simple acetone and tranny fluid!

Penetrating oil . Average load .. Price per fluid ounce
None ................. 516 pounds .
WD-40 .............. 238 pounds .. $0.25
PB Blaster ......... 214 pounds .. $0.35
Liquid Wrench ... 127 pounds .. $0.21
Kano Kroil ........ 106 pounds .. $0.75
ATF-Acetone mix.. 53 pounds .. $0.10

The ATF-Acetone mix was a 50/50 mix (1 to 1 ratio)."

[arthur1920]

Kroil - www.kanolabs.com

Kroil, spray on fastener then blast with electric heat gun. just get it hot and bubbly-don't ignite it!
Bigger fasteners that you can actuallyget to...Acetylene wrench.

Under the dash has got to be a S. O. B.

[arthur1920]

Freeze-Off, nothing like winter for freezing your nuts off. I've always been an advocate of the "blue wrench", but not for under dashboard applications. Sometimes a localized Bernzomatic torch will do the trick, I keep old asbestos siding shingles around to use as a shield.

If you have an air chisel, turn it way down and use a punch and give each flat on the nut a rap. This works most of the time.

Bob


Freeze off helped me NOT. Although reading the can it sounded very promising. I think CRC was good stuff, as good as kroil but I can't find it anymore. Liquid Wrench was pretty good too, but very smelly and messy.

[arthur1920]

thanks all - went with the kroil and am very happy with it - it is expensive as an aerosol - but what i did was to buy a refillable aerosl can from hft ($3) and a gallon jug ($30) - this ought to give me 6 cans - the can is filled with shop air to 90psi - it has a hose that goes to the bottom and the air pressure pushes it up - so no shaking - no can empty of air and have throw away some of the fluid - anyway...it is working for me - give it a try! - thanks again...ed

where did you find it for 30.$?

[edl]

direct from mfg...www.kanolabs.com...they got 2 specials (you only see them in the flyer that comes with the product) triple play (kroil with silicone) and one for regular kroil - each comes with a gallon, an applicator and something else - just ask the sales rep...good luck

[Moose-LandTran]

after a good coat of WD-40 and sometimes some "canned heat" (oxy-acetylene) i often use a drift to transfer a little "shock" to the fastener i want to remove when it's seized or rusted.

tends to work for me.

[Kevin54]

Watching DIY Network and one of their handy tips for rusted nuts and bolts was to put some hydrogen peroxide on it, let it set for a few minutes, and wha-la!!! Never heard of it before but who knows, it may just work.