What is the best under $400 welder

[chicane]

I am a fabrication newb and I would like to find the best/easiest under $400 welder. I have been looking at some from Lincoln but i need to know what to look for?

[stangkid14]

under 500 would be lincoln weldpack 3200hd

[Weldtool]

I have one that I sell for $325.00. It is Gas and Gasless, 130 Amp Design, High Duty Cycle, Tweeco Gun, Regulator, Wire and all you need to Weld out of the box. This machine was modeled after the Miller 130 which sells for $660.00 at( www.millerwelds.com). I have sold Machines from every MFG over the years and this is the best value deal for a quality machine I have ever seen. The Miller 130, The Hobart Handler (Miller and Hobart are the Same Company now) and the Lincoln model sold by Welding Supply stores are the benchmark machines. (The Weldpak) is Lincolns cheaper version sold to Big box retail stores which is a lessor machine in the packaging of their better machine. It hits the price point for Home Depot but is really less powerful.

[brianpgriset]

If your set on sub-$400 for a NEW welder, then go with a stick machine, like a good ol' tombstone or Miller thunderbolt. Very verstile, easy to use and maintain, and can weld rusty crusty metal to sparkling clean. Every weldor should have a good stick machine in his shop:thumbup:.

[Franz©]

BULLSHIT ARTIST ALERT THIS GUY SQUISHES AS HE WALKS!

I have one that I sell for $325.00. It is Gas and Gasless, 130 Amp Design, High Duty Cycle, Tweeco Gun, Regulator, Wire and all you need to Weld out of the box. This machine was modeled after the Miller 130 which sells for $660.00 at( www.millerwelds.com). I have sold Machines from every MFG over the years and this is the best value deal for a quality machine I have ever seen. The Miller 130, The Hobart Handler (Miller and Hobart are the Same Company now) and the Lincoln model sold by Welding Supply stores are the benchmark machines. (The Weldpak) is Lincolns cheaper version sold to Big box retail stores which is a lessor machine in the packaging of their better machine. It hits the price point for Home Depot but is really less powerful.

^^COMPLETE TOTAL LYING SACK OF SHIT^^
GO SELL YOUR SACK OF CRAP SOMEPLAECE YOU WON'T GET CALLED OUT

[jklingel]

Uhhh..... Franz.... Would you recommend I buy one from this guy then? :headscrat (Kidding). I assume you have some proof of this? Just curious. I don't know either one of you, but like a little hint as to who IS and who AIN'T. Thanks. j

[chicane]

If your set on sub-$400 for a NEW welder, then go with a stick machine, like a good ol' tombstone or Miller thunderbolt. Very verstile, easy to use and maintain, and can weld rusty crusty metal to sparkling clean. Every weldor should have a good stick machine in his shop:thumbup:.

Is this new or used? Where can I find one?

[Stuey]

Uhhh..... Franz.... Would you recommend I buy one from this guy then? :headscrat (Kidding). I assume you have some proof of this? Just curious. I don't know either one of you, but like a little hint as to who IS and who AIN'T. Thanks. j
A good rule of thumb is that you don't buy from first time posters who advertise or try to sell you something.

I know neither of them as well, but seeing as how Franz has been here for almost two years with almost 1K postings, I'd trust his word over a single spam posting new member.

[brianpgriset]

Is this new or used? Where can I find one?

You can get a new Lincoln AC-225 at just about and Home Depot or Lowes for $270 bucks

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=98103-1703-K1170&lpage=none

Millers you'll have to probably go to a welding shop, OR you can get the Hobart version, which is the exact same welder, made on the same production line, at and TSC. Can't remember how much th go for though, but its about the same as the Lincoln I'd bet.

Remember, you can get a very nice 120V MIG used if you do some shopping around, if you have your heart set on MIG.

[Franz©]

The HoFart version is NOT the exact same welder! HoFart uses a plastic wire feed mechanism with limited life for beginners, and the rest of the machine leaves plenty to be desired as well. Miller is the superior ITW brand, but both machines in 120 volt versions leave a hell of a lot to be desired.

120 volt lincolns are made in either Italy or Spain, and are a major pain in the azz if they do not have full current at full 120 volts or above coming to the machine. Lincoln bought the Great American Manufacturer Century to get a larger market share, and refuses to support Century machines.

120 volt MIG machines simply leave too much to be desired. I can make them weld under decent circumstances, a beginner ain't got a hope in hell.
90% of all 120 volt machines sold wind up collecting dust on a shelf because the owner got tired of trying. Consumables for those machines will quickly pay for a real 175+ class machine in the premium you pay for wire in 2# spools and contact tips.

[rickairmedic]

Ok before I get ripped :D I would suggest harbor freight for a starter mig in the 120 volt class true as Franz says 120 volt machines are not going to let you build a car but you can do some ornamental work with them and I have had a 120 volt harbor freight mig for 5 years I do own a larger miller and a HUGE miller dialarc stick welder but for just general work I will most often use the little harbor freight machine . I have made alot of stuff with 1" and 1/2 " box tubing with this little machine and as far as I am concerned its the best bang for the buck .


Rick

[chicane]

You can get a new Lincoln AC-225 at just about and Home Depot or Lowes for $270 bucks

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=98103-1703-K1170&lpage=none

Millers you'll have to probably go to a welding shop, OR you can get the Hobart version, which is the exact same welder, made on the same production line, at and TSC. Can't remember how much th go for though, but its about the same as the Lincoln I'd bet.

Remember, you can get a very nice 120V MIG used if you do some shopping around, if you have your heart set on MIG.

So this Lincoln is a good welder? What thickness/gauge steel can this weld? is this a 120v or 240v?

[chicane]

The HoFart version is NOT the exact same welder! HoFart uses a plastic wire feed mechanism with limited life for beginners, and the rest of the machine leaves plenty to be desired as well. Miller is the superior ITW brand, but both machines in 120 volt versions leave a hell of a lot to be desired.

120 volt lincolns are made in either Italy or Spain, and are a major pain in the azz if they do not have full current at full 120 volts or above coming to the machine. Lincoln bought the Great American Manufacturer Century to get a larger market share, and refuses to support Century machines.

120 volt MIG machines simply leave too much to be desired. I can make them weld under decent circumstances, a beginner ain't got a hope in hell.
90% of all 120 volt machines sold wind up collecting dust on a shelf because the owner got tired of trying. Consumables for those machines will quickly pay for a real 175+ class machine in the premium you pay for wire in 2# spools and contact tips.


So you are saying don't even bother with the 120v machines, 240v only?
P.S.
I like your signature.

[jklingel]

Ok before I get ripped :D
Rick •• yes, i see that one must be careful about what one says on here.

[brianpgriset]

The HoFart version is NOT the exact same welder!

Excuse me, I was referring to the stick welders, the Thunderbolt and the LX-235.

[brianpgriset]

So this Lincoln is a good welder? What thickness/gauge steel can this weld? is this a 120v or 240v?

Stick welders are very difficult to use on anything under around 14 gauge steel. There is no limit to the thickness a stick welder can weld, with multiple passes. The AC-225 is a 240V machine, I believe it has a 20% duty cycle, good enough for hobbyists.

What are you planning on welding? This will help alot with recommending a welder.

[chicane]

Stick welders are very difficult to use on anything under around 14 gauge steel. There is no limit to the thickness a stick welder can weld, with multiple passes. The AC-225 is a 240V machine, I believe it has a 20% duty cycle, good enough for hobbyists.

What are you planning on welding? This will help alot with recommending a welder.


At least 20 gauge sheet metal and maybe a roll cage.

[markb1]

You're prolly an average guy, not going to be a pro welder , but not going to be a hack either so get the middle of the road welder ,you'll be happy and if you need something better you'll know when the time comes.

Don't go bottom of the line, it's a waste of your time and money.

[Franz©]

At least 20 gauge sheet metal and maybe a roll cage.

Let me be as honest as I can.
You're in a HEAP of trouble Son!

I wouldn't lean on a roll cage "welded" by a beginner with a MIG.
You're chasing the impossible dream looking for a machine under $400- that will do both of those jobs, and you're courting DEATH with any roll cage that isn't properly designed, reenforced and most importantly welded.

Rick is right, he can glue ornamental tubing projects together with a 120 volt MIG from Horrible Flotsum. What he hasn't said is he has it connected to power very close to the meter, or has a damn heavy circuit between the meter and the machine. He also hasn't mentioned the wall thickness of the tubing either. Horror Flotsum does from time to time market machines that can produce a weld under ideal conditions. One of their TIG machines ain't bad if you want a small TIG that's DC only. It's even supported by a secondary vendor. Theprice of consumables will damn quickly cost you the upgrade to a real TIG though, and you still got a Horrible FLotsum machine.

A skilled craftsman can do decent work with crap tools, and a semiskilled man can occasionally do decent work with good tools. Production line welding machine operators prove that every day around the world. An unskilled man with crappy tools has a damn long & hard road to travel though trying to make anything with crappy tools. Then again, mediocher is the new American Standard of Excellence. Cheap is good enough.

My only question is; If yo don't have time and tools to do it right the first time, when in hell are you going to be able to repair it, and how?

[rickairmedic]

I have to give Franz props I run my 120 volt Harbor freight machine on its own 20 amp circuit and I wouldntt even think about doing a roll cage with it save some money and look at the hobart 210 class machines probably the cheapest 240 volt 200+ amp welding shop supported machine you can find NEW .

http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay_10551_10001_36331_______14151%7C142 20%7C14238%7C36331?listingPage=true

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hobart-Ironman-210-MIG-Flux-Cored-Welder-500304-BR_W0QQitemZ230214517980QQihZ013QQcategoryZ46413QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/HOBART-HANDLER-210-500526-MIG-WELDER-230V-WELD-NEW_W0QQitemZ360015295582QQihZ023QQcategoryZ113743 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=43550

I think the Ironman is a little bettter machine but have heard plentty good aboutt the new HH210 as well alot of peaple have remarked how nice an arc it has . I know Hobartt is not Miller but for most hobiests it is more machine than they will most likely ever outrun.

I dont swear by everything Harbor freight sells their auto dark hoods are crap.


Rick

[chicane]

Let me be as honest as I can.
You're in a HEAP of trouble Son!

I wouldn't lean on a roll cage "welded" by a beginner with a MIG.

OH NO!!!! :(

[goodfellow]

\
90% of all 120 volt machines sold wind up collecting dust on a shelf because the owner got tired of trying. Consumables for those machines will quickly pay for a real 175+ class machine in the premium you pay for wire in 2# spools and contact tips.

Brother Franz is right. There are about 15 to 20 guys in my car club that started with 120v machines and in almost all cases, they eventually purchased 220v machines. The learning curve on the 120v units was too high and the units were not very versatile. Most all are collecting dust on a shelf somewhere.

[chicane]

Brother Franz is right. There are about 15 to 20 guys in my car club that started with 120v machines and in almost all cases, they eventually purchased 220v machines. The learning curve on the 120v units was too high and the units were not very versatile. Most all are collecting dust on a shelf somewhere.


I want a 220v, I don't remember saying I was looking for a 120v. I asked for machines under $400.

[rickairmedic]

Chicane about the only MIG welder you are gonna find new under $400.00 that is 220 volts is at harbor freight . This is why I said to save a little more money and look at the Hobart 210 class welders which you can get between $800.00 and $1200.00 bucks are they the same quality as a miller no but you I would assume are not going into production you are looking for a hobby welder to do some stuff with.

http://cgi.ebay.com/HOBART-HANDLER-210-500526-MIG-WELDER-230V-WELD-NEW_W0QQitemZ360015295582QQihZ023QQcategoryZ113743 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


The welder I linked to here I have heard nothing but good stuff about and it will do just about anything you can come up with in the home garage . I will also go along with Franz if you havent welded before you need alot of practice before even thinking about welding up a roll cage that is for anything more than SHOW.

Rick

[chicane]

Chicane about the only MIG welder you are gonna find new under $400.00 that is 220 volts is at harbor freight . This is why I said to save a little more money and look at the Hobart 210 class welders which you can get between $800.00 and $1200.00 bucks are they the same quality as a miller no but you I would assume are not going into production you are looking for a hobby welder to do some stuff with.

http://cgi.ebay.com/HOBART-HANDLER-210-500526-MIG-WELDER-230V-WELD-NEW_W0QQitemZ360015295582QQihZ023QQcategoryZ113743 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


The welder I linked to here I have heard nothing but good stuff about and it will do just about anything you can come up with in the home garage . I will also go along with Franz if you havent welded before you need alot of practice before even thinking about welding up a roll cage that is for anything more than SHOW.

Rick

Isn't that Lincoln a 220v?

[Jared]

What about the HH187 wouldn't that do what he wants?

[rickairmedic]

There are 2 lincoln welderes thtat are 220 volt on Homie depots site the AC only for $269.00

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100041326

And the AC/DC version of the toombstone which is $389.00

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100053881

I wouldnt recomend these to a hobiest as stick as far as I am concerned is harder to learn than Mig one of the reasons they call it Stick welding is until you figure out how to use it the thing you will do most often is STICK the electrode to whattever you are trying to weld .

TThe Lincoln 3200HD is a 120 volt machine and if you are going to buy a first welder in the 120 volt range I still say Harbor freight is the best bang for the buck.

The HH187 which Jarod pointed out is a decent 220 volt sttarter machine but it will only go up to 185 amps and has a 30% duty cycle at 130 amps.

http://cgi.ebay.com/HOBART-HANDLER-187-MIG-WELDER-500525-NEW_W0QQitemZ140200134165QQihZ004QQcategoryZ113743 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


The HH210 isnt much more than the HH187 and is alott more welder for the money and a Hobbiest would not likely ever need more welder then the 210 which will go up to 210 amps and has a duty cycle of 30% at 150 amps.

http://cgi.ebay.com/HOBART-HANDLER-210-MIG-WELDER-500526_W0QQitemZ140200172139QQihZ004QQcategoryZ113 743QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The Hobart ironman210 is an even better machine than the HH210 for a little more money has a 40% duty cycle at 150 amps and is probably as close as you can get tto a Miller welder without buying the Miller welder .

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hobart-Ironman-210-MIG-Flux-Cored-Welder-500304-BR_W0QQitemZ230216897456QQihZ013QQcategoryZ46413QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Now none of these are going to match up to a Miller 212 machine which has a 60% duty cycle att 160 amps but as I said for a hobby machine and not a production machine I think they would do a hobbiestt just fine at thalf the costt or less than the Miller 212.


http://cgi.ebay.com/MILLER-MILLERMATIC-212-907324-MIG-WELDER-230-VOLT-NEW_W0QQitemZ260205604139QQihZ016QQcategoryZ113743 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Rick

[chicane]

There are 2 lincoln welderes thtat are 220 volt on Homie depots site the AC only for $269.00

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100041326

And the AC/DC version of the toombstone which is $389.00

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100053881

I wouldnt recomend these to a hobiest as stick as far as I am concerned is harder to learn than Mig one of the reasons they call it Stick welding is until you figure out how to use it the thing you will do most often is STICK the electrode to whattever you are trying to weld .

TThe Lincoln 3200HD is a 120 volt machine and if you are going to buy a first welder in the 120 volt range I still say Harbor freight is the best bang for the buck.

The HH187 which Jarod pointed out is a decent 220 volt sttarter machine but it will only go up to 185 amps and has a 30% duty cycle at 130 amps.

http://cgi.ebay.com/HOBART-HANDLER-187-MIG-WELDER-500525-NEW_W0QQitemZ140200134165QQihZ004QQcategoryZ113743 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


The HH210 isnt much more than the HH187 and is alott more welder for the money and a Hobbiest would not likely ever need more welder then the 210 which will go up to 210 amps and has a duty cycle of 30% at 150 amps.

http://cgi.ebay.com/HOBART-HANDLER-210-MIG-WELDER-500526_W0QQitemZ140200172139QQihZ004QQcategoryZ113 743QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The Hobart ironman210 is an even better machine than the HH210 for a little more money has a 40% duty cycle at 150 amps and is probably as close as you can get tto a Miller welder without buying the Miller welder .

http://cgi.ebay.com/Hobart-Ironman-210-MIG-Flux-Cored-Welder-500304-BR_W0QQitemZ230216897456QQihZ013QQcategoryZ46413QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Now none of these are going to match up to a Miller 212 machine which has a 60% duty cycle att 160 amps but as I said for a hobby machine and not a production machine I think they would do a hobbiestt just fine at thalf the costt or less than the Miller 212.


http://cgi.ebay.com/MILLER-MILLERMATIC-212-907324-MIG-WELDER-230-VOLT-NEW_W0QQitemZ260205604139QQihZ016QQcategoryZ113743 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Rick

NONE of these except the first two were under $400.

[rickairmedic]

Ok did you actually read anything I bothered to write or did you simply click the links and move on the point I was trying to make was . You are not going to find a MIG welder wortth a $hit for less tthan $400.00 but if you save a little more there are several options available that would make good Hobby Mig welders.

Rick

[markb1]

You just can't learn everything by reading. At some point you have to step out and start making mistakes. Then you start to move ahead. Just my NSHO.

[Franz©]

How about if I drive my rig over to your house, bring all the material and rods with me, along with a saw and a drillpress, and you just tell me what you want the finished product to look like. Then when I'm finished you stand there and bitch how much better you could have done because some dimwitt on the internet posted a picture of his welds he made with the under $400- machine he pickeu up at Shythole Freight.

[dstaley]

Franz isn't very nice about how he says things, but he is right.

I bought a Lincoln SP-135T MIG welder and was very happy with how it performed up to its limits, but its limits were not what I ultimately needed. I couldn't weld the frame on my Camaro with it (.120" steel) so I put it up for sale- I had paid $340 plus tax for it, bought some consumables, and sold it to a friend a year and a half later for $350 with all the new consumables thrown in. It was a GREAT welder for sheetmetal, small brackets, and small jobs. It didn't have the juice for pouring heat into a simple 1/8" lap joint (basically 1/4" thick material on one side).

If you're doing bodywork, buy a Hobart, Miller, or Lincoln 110V 135-140A machine. If you're doing structural work like your roll bar, and it's supposed to be functional rather than just for show, buy at least a 180A machine.

I ended up buying a Miller 252 with a spoolgun when I refinanced my house a few weeks ago. It certainly has NO trouble with any welds I ask it to do.

If I need to do thicker stuff and I can live with the appearance that my hobbyist skills will produce, I don't hesitate to fire up my Hobart Stickmate AC/DC stick welder. The best price around for this sub-$400 welder is at Tractor Supply.

Oh, one more thing- watch the Farm King (I think that's the name) web site for refurbished Hobart welders. Once in a while, there are some real bargains to be had. You never know, you might find a 180A MIG that's within reach, but it will be over $400 even refurbished.

[Stanger]

What about the HH187 wouldn't that do what he wants?
Yes. I am running a HH187 with C25 and it is perfect. Franz is right on most things but I think he should look a little closer at the 187 and 210 "Ho-farts". The plastic drive roller doesn't change a thing, I've never heard of anyone having trouble with it. Just something for Miller to brag about IMO. The arc characteristics on the 187 and 210(very similar machines) are very good. If you haven't, you really should try one Franz. It really shines on the top end. A roll cage would be no problem(unless you are a noob, then don't touch it). The 187 will weld everything this guy wants but it is going to be well over $600 for the welder and gas even if he shops around. I have around $900 in my setup and the welder was an A grade refurb(looks and performs like BRAND NEW, I wouldn't hesitate to buy again).
Grant

[Franz©]

Grant, believe me when I tell you there are big differences in the machines made by Indochina Thug Works Miller & HoFart divisions.
I've welded with both manufactures, only been at the craft for over 50 years, so I just might have a little experience. I was also a tester for HoFart products, and since I refused to sign the nondisclosure agreement I do freely speak of their weaknesses.
The former Hobart Bros company has been completely WHORED out by ITW in the intrest of moving units. The plastic wire drive in HoFart machines is inferior to the wire drive mechanism in Miller units, and will over time give even a weekend warrior problems.

From where I sit the biggest problem is most buyers have no damn idea of what a machine should do, so they wind up in deep crap real quick. Then they either shelve the machine or go buy a new machine, after all we are in a throw away society.

The 187 is a good power suply, and in my way of thinking the 187 HoFart is a more desirable power suply than the Blue comparable. Both machines have been optimized at the top of their delivery capability and the bottom end has been sacrificed. It was done in a previoud mine is than yours both Lincoln & ITW revised the 175 amp machines to the top end.

The thing I find hilarious is how well both manufacturers have been able to market their machines, especially in the box store arena. Why the hell anybody would buy a welder from a box store escapes me, because there sure won't be any support. The only worse way to buy a machine is from one of the slugs that claim to be supliers who are nothing but a computer and a phone operation processing drop ship from factory orders. The few dollars saved in the initial transaction always ends up biting the buyer in the ass, because there is no after sale service. The buyer who needs service the most cheats himself out of any possible help from the LWS by saving a few bucks.

There's one hell of a lot to the welding business that escapes most people, and nobody is going to learn welding from the internet. That may not be nice, but it's reality!

[Coach James]

"Shythole freight"...:bounce:

I own a MM135, but plan to buy a 210 asap. My 135 is fine for light stuff as I have it on a dedicated circuit. I put one in when I realized that it needed every volt to give me the results I wanted.

The man that taught me to weld taught me first on a 135. Actually he taught me gas welding first then mig. After 3 days of using the 135, he had me try his old Miller 200. He then asked me if I noticed any difference. The differences were obvious and now that I want to do heavier work, I want a 210.

I thought about a 175 class, but the increase in performance over the 135 didn't seem enough to justify the extra cost, thus my decision to get a 210.

I would also say that buying from a real welding house is a plus. I bought my 135 from CWIS. I've never had to get it repaired, but they do repairs on site. Even though I'm not a huge customer dollar wise, they treat me like I am. Always take all the time I need to answer a question or find something I want/need. They are 40 miles away, but make deliveries to my welding teachers shop frequently. If I need something, I call them and they send it to his shop where I can pick it up.

A buddy of mine saved a few bucks, up front at least, buying a Lincoln at Lowes. That was two years ago and he regrets it greatly. he might as well have been dropped off in the middle of the desert as far as help and support go. I don't think anyone at our Lowes knows how to even set a welder up much less do good work with one.

FWIW, I know a lot of people say to just buy a mig, practice 3 or 4 hours and you'll be putting down good welds. Maybe I'm a slow learner, but if I had not had someone knowledgeable to teach me, I have no idea how long it would have taken me to put down good welds. And how would I know they were good if I didn't have an experienced welder looking at them and testing them? The guy that taught me has been making his living welding and teaching welding for 40+ years. The knowledge I gained from his teaching was worth every penny it cost me.

Coach

[Stanger]

Franz, I realize you have experience, I am not disputing that. It sounded to me like you gave up on "HoFart" a long time ago so I wasn't sure you were familiar with the 187 and 210. I do not know what a weldor should buy if they are all junk as you claim. A MM210(now 212) was my first choice but it was twice the $$. My 187 refurb was purchased online and I have had great customer service. I had a gas leak I couldn't track down so I assumed the regulator was bad. I called them and they said they would send a replacement out asap if I wanted but suggested that I try cleaning it out first in case it is just a small dirt particle. Bingo, I was back in business. They didn't need to send the part but they were more than willing had I requested it. What would you suggest to buy for a 180A class mig these days? HTP, TA, Esab?
Grant

[Franz©]

Stanger I own 17 machines, and 15 0f them are sitting on this property. I own a Miller MM 200, and I will guarandamntee you I'm not the only person who thinks it's the finest MIG Miller ever made. Of course they made that machine before Miller became an IndoChinaThugworks Company. Next to the MM200 sits a Hobart Bros 400 amp MIG, excellent machine that has laid down miles of weld and burned tons of wire. Made again before Hobart Bros became a ITW company and the name was whored.
I think I own about 8 Lincolns, can't be sure without actually counting, all good machines made when James T Lincoln was running the company, not a bunch of MBA pissants that are running it today. I also own a Thermal Dynamics PAC Plasma, made by the real TD, not the pispuppy company that produces purple crap today in Mainland CHINA and claims to be building the product in the US.

Over the last 15 years I've watched a lot of what I consider pure crap transpire in the welding manufacturing industry. ITW companys with the exception of Smith Torches, are total whores in my book, because of how they do business, including screwing long standing dealers to move more units across the manufacturing floor. ITW and Lincoln been in a petty pissin contest for the homeowner market for 15 years, and both misrepresent hell out of their homeowner line products they push in box stores.

ESAB is a worldwide manufacturer, and well supports their commercial products. The problem with ESAB in the US is their local representation isn't in a lot of markets. My LWS carries ESAB, Miller and a few others, and has a truckload of ESAB boards waiting for ESAB to haul them back. Sure, the LWS warranty replaced the board for the customer, but if you don't have a LWS that will and can do the warranty, where the hell are you with a machine that doesn't run. I can switch from one machine to another to finish a job, but a man with just one machine is screwed till he gets it fixed. Believe me, damn few manufacturers will jump to help a weekend warrior with a machine that costs a few hundred.
I sure wouldn't look hard at any of the current generation of purple machines because I know their business plan for the next 10 years. They are currently getting a new China factory on line, and even now their factory support SUCKS.

The thing that confuses me is why a person who will spend 6 months looking at a car will buy a MIG machine on line to save a few bucks without ever trying the machine. I won't. If I was buying my first MIG i'd stuff my money in my pocket and ride from LWS to LWS and test drive every maching and manufacturer I could. Any LWS that don't want to let you test drive a machine ain't worth spending your money with. If they ain't helpful before your money is in their pocket they damn well ain't gonna help you when they have your money.

Take your own test pieces along, and try the different machines on the work you'll be doing. You might get lucky and find a LWS that will not only sell you a machine they'll also show you how to run it. Those are the people you want to deal with.

People seem to think MIG machines are wondertoys. Weldors call them Hot Glue Guns because most of what people do with MIG is little more than slopping molten metal onto other metal. That ain't welding, it's hot glue, and it will fall apart. I watched a trailer pull the headblock off a hitch the fool "welded" with his mm135 one day. I laughed myself silly. I even helped him by calling the PoPo and informing the nice officer writing the report that the fool had "welded" his own hitch together and done so improperly. I like being helpful that way.

Welding is a funny process, you either get it right or somebody gets hurt or dead down the line.

[Senorpablo]

Welding is a funny process, you either get it right or somebody gets hurt or dead down the line.

Not everything that's welded is destined for earth orbit, various war machines, or life threatening structural assemblies.

I've met a few licensed welders, and they've all been arrogant and dramatic when it comes to welding. As with most things in life, all it takes is a some desire, knowledge, common sense and experience through practice.

I'm grateful that Hobart has a line of less expensive welders which are a tremendous value. Markets change and evolve. Up until about 15 years ago, and left to local welding suppliers with little competition, welders for home use were out of reach.

So what if my Hobart has a plastic drive roller? I'm not welding with it for hours a day. If I have to replace the roller every 10 spools of wire, who cares? Really.

[SDBOB]

I'm approaching 60.I've had Millers since I was 21
1.I,myself prefer to buy from a welding house.When I need help I can talk to someone who knows.
2. Price is important but quality to me is better.
3. I was a contractor for 30+ yrs(qualifying myself I guess)My father taught me that,'You are only going to do it once!' You'll have it.
4. The first AC machine Airco made by Miller.I then bought an AC/DC Miller 220. Then bought a 220 Miller Mig to weld sheet metal ,up to 3/8 plate in one pass.
Then you can believe this if you want I've never had one of these machines ever let me down.I'm not a profeesional but have had schooling. I would tack/fit my cage then get a certified welder to finish the cage so its approved by the sanctioning org.

[Franz©]

Not everything that's welded is destined for earth orbit, various war machines, or life threatening structural assemblies.
The intended use is not relevent, it's either WELDED or it's just stuck. Weldors understand regardless of the original purpose when it leaves the shop it's just a matter of time until somebody misuses the weldment and gets hurt or dead when the weld fails. Guess who is the first to be on the DEFENDANT line when that happens.

I've met a few licensed welders, and they've all been arrogant and dramatic when it comes to welding. As with most things in life, all it takes is a some desire, knowledge, common sense and experience through practice.

Some are, most aren't. Chances are the arrogant ones you met were the least qualified to push a machine into place. You should have seen the "certified weldors" I've met looking for employment. 80% weren't worthy of hire. Most left when they couldn't pass my test, and generally they left without even attempting

I'm grateful that Hobart has a line of less expensive welders which are a tremendous value. Markets change and evolve. Up until about 15 years ago, and left to local welding suppliers with little competition, welders for home use were out of reach.
Thank you for the testimony to the ITW 80/20 business plan. Have you read what ITW thinks of the homeowner market? Their opinion of that market share is the same as Lincoln's.

So what if my Hobart has a plastic drive roller? I'm not welding with it for hours a day. If I have to replace the roller every 10 spools of wire, who cares? Really.
You'll begin to care when you begin rebuilding the China made Drive Mechanism, and you will. There are many minimizations made in that class of machine because both manufacturers consider the product throwaway devices just like your TV, Stove, etc. Drive rollers and most of the parts of any MIG gun assembly are considered consumables in the industry, and replacement is the norm. Drive mechanisms are NOT consumables.

[Senorpablo]

Franz, I certainly appreciate your point of view though I suspect we're on opposite ends of the welding market. I look forward to learning more about the craft one day when I have some time.

This may not be the proper thread for it, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the American auto industry. Now that's an industry rife with greed, incompetence, and corruption with far greater implications for most folks...

[Weldtool]

Response from WeldTool.

I am sorry that one person took offense to my comment on the MIG Welder I Mentioned. In fact I made no offer to sell the machine on this site. However, I grew up in a family business that has sold all Welder's from All MFG's. USA, UK, Italy, Taiwan, China, etc. Evereytime I offered a Miller or Lincoln or Hobart to a customer they complained about the price. When the Italian Welders came in in the early 90's the were cheaper, great sellers, and worked ok-until you needed service. The Machine I mentoned suprised me because it was so well built compared to the machines I have seen a Harbor Freight or the Local Tool Store. Unfortunately, Lincoln and Miller do and will have competition in the Light Industrial Market. Selection and Technical understanding is best done without anger and supidity.

[Weldtool]

Response from WeldTool.

I am sorry that one person took offense to my comment on the MIG Welder I mentioned. In fact, I made no offer to sell the machine on this site. However, I grew up in a family Welding business that has sold all Welder's from All MFG's. USA, UK, Italy, Taiwan, China, etc. Evereytime I offer a Miller, Lincoln or Hobart to a customer they (the customer) wanted a lower price (at the DIY-Automotive Level). When the Italian Welders came in in the early 90's the were cheaper in cost, great sellers, and worked ok-until you needed service. The Machine - I mentoned suprised me -because it was so well built (MADE IN CHINA) compared to the machines I have seen a Harbor Freight or the Local Tool Stores or anywhere. Unfortunately, Lincoln and Miller do and will have competition in the Light Industrial Market. Selection and Technical understanding is best done without anger and stupidity. Toyota's used to be junk, today they are well liked. Boeing airplanes are hard to knock off in China. Lets worry about the high quality, High value items we make here and leave the simple tools and machines to the next growing economy that will buy ou high tech items. i.e. China.

[Weldtool]

Hey, relax. I do not need to sell anything. BUt I have this Welder for $9.99 if you act now, not sold elsewhere, as seen on TV, but you must have a sense of humor, send your check money order to Richmond 9, Welderville KT. Please wait 12-18 weeks for delivery.

[Weldtool]

Well said. It appear you understand.

[Weldtool]

Can you back pedal without your ego?

[arthur1920]

How about if I drive my rig over to your house, bring all the material and rods with me, along with a saw and a drillpress, and you just tell me what you want the finished product to look like. Then when I'm finished you stand there and bitch how much better you could have done because some dimwitt on the internet posted a picture of his welds he made with the under $400- machine he pickeu up at Shythole Freight.

great idea.
I will draw up something and while you are working on my stuff I will be writing up my complaints. You can bring the beer too. :-))))

[arthur1920]

I am a fabrication newb and I would like to find the best/easiest under $400 welder. I have been looking at some from Lincoln but i need to know what to look for?


While misspending my youth I searched for welders. About the best place to shop was BR Welders. If you are not going to the local store then see their site.

[comp]

great idea.
I will draw up something and while you are working on my stuff I will be writing up my complaints. You can bring the beer too. :-))))

free beer :beer::beer::spit: