Need Help Solving LA Proto Factory Mystery

[Bolster]

Hello all...I'm a new member who joined after I discovered a lot of you folks were into old tools, like I am!

I live in Los Angeles, and collect Plomb & Proto/Los Angeles tools because (for me) they are local history. I got the idea I'd like to see the location of the old Proto (and maybe Plomb?) factory site in downtown LA. I have a '62 Proto catalog that gives an aerial photo and the address of the factory as: 2209 Santa Fe Avenue, Los Angeles, 90054.

Problem is, the modern online map databases can find no such address...it's gone. Different online maps lead me to different areas. Google Earth locates a possible northern location in the 90054 zipcode, and Mapquest locates a possible southern location (with a different zip code, 90058)...they're separated by several miles, but both are on Santa Fe avenue (which has apparently been renamed South Santa Fe Avenue).

The REALLY ODD thing is, both locations look like they might be possible, from aerial or satellite photos! Both have an "A" shaped lot, and both have railway running along the upper right edge! (In the original photo, those are almost certainly rail box cars at the top center of the image).

The original photo shows deep shadows cast to the rear of the photo, indicating the camera is looking west (if taken in the morning) or looking east (in the evening). In the Northern and Southern possibility locations, the Northern one the camera is looking north, and in the Southern one the camera is looking west. Check out the shadows and see if you can make a connection...remembering that a winter shot can make shadows lie to the north at midday, since the sun is low in the sky even at noon.

Also check out the railway. In the Southern possiblity location, you get the sense for a much better match for the rail, which branches left AND right as well as going straight up.

Does anyone out there have an earlier or later address for Proto or Plomb, in Los Angeles? Any sleuths to help me figure out whether I've found the correct location, and if so, which one?

Thanks!

http://www.cmp-usa.com/interest/proto%20plant%20THREE.jpg

PS: Want to view larger photos of all three?
From Catalog (http://www.cmp-usa.com/interest/Proto%20CATALOG.png)
North Possibility (http://www.cmp-usa.com/interest/proto%20NORTH.png)
South Possibility (http://www.cmp-usa.com/interest/Proto%20SOUTH.png)

[Vinko]

Does anyone out there have an earlier or later address for Proto or Plomb, in Los Angeles? Any sleuths to help me figure out whether I've found the correct location, and if so, which one?



Have you contacted anyone at the LAPL or the Univ. libraries at UCLA/USC? I bet at least one of the librarians at UCLA or USC who specializes in local history will be able to help you find the information.

[MAD]

Maybe you should contact these guys:

http://plombtools.com/CompanyHistory.aspx

[vssjim]

The address I have is for the main office and plant at 2209 Sante Fe Avenue Los Angeles, Ca. 90053 phone 716-589-3311
this was from the sixties Pendelton tool ind. pre I-R days
they also still listed the Jamestown NY and London ontario plants still in this book
I also am a Proto tool guy and collect the tools that say Proto Los Angeles
but I also have some Proto Mexico and Proto Canada stuff also as well as other Proto branded stuff Vlchek, Fleet etc.

[Bolster]

The address I have is for the main office and plant at 2209 Sante Fe Avenue Los Angeles, Ca. 90053 phone 716-589-3311...this was from the sixties Pendelton tool ind...I also am a Proto tool guy and collect the tools that say Proto Los Angeles but I also have some Proto Mexico and Proto Canada stuff also as well as other Proto branded stuff Vlchek, Fleet etc.

90053?!? So that answers a big question...do zip codes change...I guess they do! Between my catalog and yours, the plant goes from 90054 to 90053. If you put your address into Google you get the "northern" location pictured above. If you put it into MapQuest, it "corrects" the address to 90058, and gives the "southern" location pictured above. Huh!

D'ya think that the Plomb headquarters was the same (or nearly the same) address?

I have just now contacted Plombtools.com as suggested...good idea...and no I have not hit up the university librarian yet...another good idea!

[vssjim]

Yes i'm sure that this was the address for many years. As you have said zip codes and area codes change often due to population levels.

[Fedwrench]

As mentioned, you can probably find a series of aerial photographs that document the changes to the area over time at a local college, university, museum, city planning department, or possibly the chamber of commerce.

[eschoendorff]

Whoa... cool dilemma...

I'm going for the southern possibility. Then again, I'm just going on the photos you posted.

BTW, welcome! :beer:


Oh, and I found this in my surfing:

http://www.vannattabros.com/plomb/plombtool.html

Not sure it's too helpful for the immediate issue, but for the Plvmb enthusiaat, this might be a cool resource.

[elect]

In the 62' photo you can clearly see a railyard in the top right ,in the northern photo the light area in same location is this same yard cleared of track,ties,ballast,cleaned up and graded.I've seen this many times at old plant location in the midwest unless developed former location of yard tells the tale!

[idoine in toronto]

I actually lived in one of the buildings shown in the "southern possibility" photo. A group of factory buildings were converted into the Santa Fe art colony around 1988, and I lived in a metal sculpting live/work studio in of them. In fact I was there during the big earth quake of '94. I don't remember a tool manufacturing plant as a neighbor, but at the time I wasn't looking. Both areas are industrial and criss crossed with rail road tracks that supply the plants.

In your southern site photo the right side of the photo is north and Santa Fe Ave is the road with the new overpass. The overpass was not there in '94-95 when I lived there and it was always a major pain to get stuck waiting for a train as they would be traveling very slowly, stopping and backing up.

My opinion is that the northern photo is the same site as the one from your '62 catalogue. Most of the buildings in the southern photo date back to teens through the ‘40s. You should be able to tell once your there and see the buildings in the flesh.
www.santafeartcolony.com

[Moose-LandTran]

From the photos, looks to me like it's the Southern Possibility.

[fourfeathers]

http://maps.live.com/#JnE9eXAuMjIwOStTYW50YStGZStBdmVudWUlMmMrTG9zK0FuZ 2VsZXMrJTdlc3N0LjAlN2VwZy4xJmJiPTU0LjQxODkyOTk2ODY 1ODIlN2UtNjAuNjQ0NTMxMjUlN2UyNi4yNzM3MTQwMjQ0MDY0J TdlLTExNC43ODUxNTYyNQ==

I didn't mess with it at all, but on maps.live.com, you can rotate maps, and I think it beats google earth handily.

[eschoendorff]

http://maps.live.com/#JnE9eXAuMjIwOStTYW50YStGZStBdmVudWUlMmMrTG9zK0FuZ 2VsZXMrJTdlc3N0LjAlN2VwZy4xJmJiPTU0LjQxODkyOTk2ODY 1ODIlN2UtNjAuNjQ0NTMxMjUlN2UyNi4yNzM3MTQwMjQ0MDY0J TdlLTExNC43ODUxNTYyNQ==

I didn't mess with it at all, but on maps.live.com, you can rotate maps, and I think it beats google earth handily.

:headscrat whachyoutalkinbout fourfeathers????

Google earth does all that and more.

[fourfeathers]

:headscrat whachyoutalkinbout fourfeathers????

Google earth does all that and more.

I don't have to DOWNLOAD anything to get maps.live. -Unless you do the fancy one.
Accuracy has been better, it is quicker, and I can actually see 3 people walking around at our shop in it's pic.
And, a lot of people have never used it, so I get to show off that I know about it.
A lot of times, it is a completely different pic than GE.

I like it.

What do you like better about Google Earth?

[eschoendorff]

I don't have to DOWNLOAD anything to get maps.live. -Unless you do the fancy one.
Accuracy has been better, it is quicker, and I can actually see 3 people walking around at our shop in it's pic.
And, a lot of people have never used it, so I get to show off that I know about it.
A lot of times, it is a completely different pic than GE.

I like it.

What do you like better about Google Earth?

Huh. Well, I liked the overall ease of use, and the fact that it worked independent of a browser (maps.live.com doesn't allow access to all features with Firefox). Seems that I need to do a little more investigating... your way seems to have a few tricks up its sleeve that I didn't realize, ie: way more updated pictures (in some cases - the picture of my house is still about 3 years old though, just like google earth). Oh, and Google Earth zooms farther into satellite images than the maps.live.com does...

[Bolster]

I actually lived in one of the buildings shown in the "southern possibility" photo...My opinion is that the northern photo is the same site as the one from your '62 catalogue. Most of the buildings in the southern photo date back to teens through the ‘40s.

Wow, that's incredible...a post from someone who lived there! That blows my mind! Thanks for the dates on the existing building in the southern location.

Something I had not thought of before, is the scale of the photos...they're perhaps not the same. Look at the size of the cars...that helps you figure out the relative size of the plot...I think the southern location is pretty darned big...look how small the cars are in it. Do you think the northern location is more to "scale?"

Also, don't forget the northern location has a consistent zip code, whereas the southern is 4 or 5 off (depending on whether you go with the original zip as 90054 or 90053).

[idoine in toronto]

Yep I was pretty surprised to see your post and recognize from a grainy aerial photo my old neighborhood. To clarify the orientation of your photos the Catalogue photo and the northern photo are oriented with north at the top while the southern photo has been rotated 90 degrees clockwise with north on the right side of the photo. The top of the catalogue and north photos shows the southern end of the Santa Fe rail yard where the tracks split into several parallel tracks to facilitate the loading and switching of the trains, just off to the right is a viaduct, Santa Fe Ave is on the left side and East 6th (now elevated to cross over the rail tracks and viaduct) run horizontally through the center of the images. On the southern photo Santa Fe Ave runs horizontally through the center of the image with a slight bend in it and has also been recently elevated to bridge over the rail tracks (note these tracks are not the same tracks in the first 2 images as they are running east –west) and 25th street is on the left side of the image.

This is an interesting area of Los Angeles and is in a constant state of change. I did a quick look at Goggle earth’s street view and saw my old building as well as what looks like some of the remaining buildings in your catalogue photo. If you do visit the site you should be able to get a good look at things from the elevated portion 6th street. Good luck and let us know what you find.

[Bolster]

Got a chance to see the southern location today. There is a building with the address 2209 S. Santa Fe Avenue in 90058 (instead of the 90054 zip published with plomb/proto literature) and it houses "Design Collection" fabrics.

I walked inside, asked a few questions, and was ushered into the office of the CEO. When I showed him my vintage Proto catalog with photo of the plant, he shook his head in incomprehension. "We have been here for 30 years," he said. "Thirty years?" I asked. "Yes," he said. "Since 1995."

I also found Idoine's Santa Fe art colony...it was real close.

Here's a few photos, the second shot from the imposing overpass that goes over the rails. This would be the left and right side of the building that (if I'm in the correct location) replaced the headquarters building you see in the sketch below with the large PLOMB sign.

Frankly, if this is the former location of Plomb and Proto, I feel rather empty and sad.

I stopped by the northern location briefly and a "bouncer" at the yard gate told me to get lost. Said they were filming on that location. About that time a remarkably attractive woman and a two legged animal pulled up in a big SUV and started talking to me (as if I were the authority), in order to get into the yard. The "bouncer" passed them through. The whole situation did not say "quality hollywood production" to me so I am suspicious it was a B movie or a porno flick. I eventually convinced the "bouncer" I was not paparazzi, and he warmed up. He thought he recognized buildings in the catalog photo that are still there, but the more I talked to him, the more clear it became that he was a few bricks shy. He told me not to take any photos or there'd be trouble...to his credit he told me this in a friendly way.

I took his word for it and moved on...I was on my way to a meeting in a white shirt and tie, and didn't need to arrive roughed up. So, no photos of the northern location today. But I'll be back...

Thanks to Plomb Tools website for the nifty line drawing at the bottom...

http://www.cmp-usa.com/interest/P%20Southern-1383%20sm.JPG

http://www.cmp-usa.com/interest/P%20Southern-1386%20sm.JPG

http://www.cmp-usa.com/interest/Plomb%20factory%20drawing%20sm.jpg

[nordstar]

The photo you posted with the Plomb sign on the building looks to be identical to the building on the 2400 block of E 24th st just down the street and across the bridge from the building 2209 on Santa Fe St. Look at the street view on Google maps here (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=2412%20e%2024th%20st%20los%20angeles%20ca&gbv=2&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=il). (you might have to flip the street view around its looking at the building across the street, but it is there.

I too am a huge plomb/proto collector. My grandfather had a bunch and I have been trying to fill in where he left off.

[Bolster]

I see it...interesting theory ... if that were the building, you'd have to explain (1) how an odd number got to the even side of the street, and (2) where the railways went. Unless you are saying the building was moved! When I go back I'll check it out.

[nordstar]

I see it...interesting theory ... if that were the building, you'd have to explain (1) how an odd number got to the even side of the street, and (2) where the railways went. Unless you are saying the building was moved! When I go back I'll check it out.

The address for Proto on the catalog is 2209 Santa Fe like you said. My catalogs says the same thing. Their tool factory was huge my copy of the 62-63 catalog that was my grandfathers shows on the back cover a highlight of the whole campus(I will scan and post a pic of it tomorrow at work). The address I gave for the building on 24th street is just a reference address for the building on Google street view. The addresses on google street view are a little off(it was just for a location to the building not an exact address to the old brick building.

Like idoine said that area is under constant change. Someone buys a lot splits it up, tears stuff down than rebuilds. No one is more to blame then the city in that area. The original factory grounds where there before the great freeway projects on the 50's. I don't think all of the rail yards served intact for that long. I am going to also scan in the current Google maps overview and layer the pic from the catalog, I can see some buildings and railways that are in same position as the current view. But I will let you decide. Pics from the ground would be great :thumbup:

I also have some saved some real photos of the buildings that where part of an eBay auction that show detail of the buildings, not just an artist sketch. I will post what I can tomorrow as well.

[Bolster]

Can't wait! :bowdown: Thank you!

[wantedabiggergarage]

Proto, I am sure, would have been involved with the war effort in WWII. Since that would be the case, your bound to be able to find something out from your towns historical society.

[nordstar]

Before and during the war it was just Plomb Tool Company. The Proto name came after the war when Plomb made a ball peen hammer and the hammer company Plumb sued them over it. A secetary came up with the new name Proto which was a combination of "PROfessional TOols". Plomb had a pretty good size contract during WWII.

Here are some of the photos I have found from an eBay auction.

http://nordstar.org/images/plomb.01.jpg

http://nordstar.org/images/plomb.02.jpg
The building I posted to on E 24th st is very close to these buildings. I would scout out that whole area and talk photos of the buildings that look pre WWII in design.

http://nordstar.org/images/plomb.03.jpg

http://nordstar.org/images/plomb.04.jpg
The area outlined in white is the campus of Proto from my 1962 catalog. The mailing address might have been on 2209 Santa Fe, but the I doubt all of those buildings would have survived. Good luck on your future scouts. I will post more photos later.

[Bolster]

Well that pretty much solves the mystery of the two locations for me...it can't be the northern location I proposed (see the first post in this thread) because the Los Angeles river is to the right of that image...the "banks" of the river are just visible on the very right side of the image I posted, and you can see the river clearly in a wider shot of the northern location on Google Earth or what-have-you.

The blue image above clearly shows no river to the immediate right side of the administration building/mailing address building, just railroad tracks. AND, some of these tracks are very, very similar in location and "branching" pattern between old and modern photos.

Nordstar, I think you solved the mystery of the two locations. My hat's off to you!

Sooo...the camera direction in my shots above are indicated by yellow arrows on Nordstar's photo.

[Bolster]

After staring at the old "blue" photo and modern satellite photos, there's only one building I can find on the old Plomb/Proto campus that looks like it may be the original. Notice the uneven spacing of the dormers (or vents or whatever they are called) on the roof on the side facing us, and that there are 5 of them visible that more-or-less match in location (the modern building looks like it had the rearmost dormers moved forward. Also the general shape of the building, as well as its location, appear to be a match.

The dormers on the far side of the roof are almost impossible to see in the blue photo, but I can "almost see" six dormers on that side...or should I say, the far-side dormers are not incompatible with six, as we see on the modern photo.

That's the only candidate I can see...can anyone else spot another "original" building? Just put the address in Google and you'll see it all as it is today, and compare to Nordstar's "blue" photo...

[goodfellow]

cudos to all you guys for starting this thread and researching the history of such a fine old company. I'm not a tool history nut, but after reading some of this info, I'm getting there. I love the old manufacturing pics.

Thanks guys !!

[Moose-LandTran]

About that time a remarkably attractive woman and a two legged animal pulled up in a big SUV.

I know this'll sound stupid, but what is a "two legged animal"? :confused:

[64merc]

I know this'll sound stupid, but what is a "two legged animal"? :confused:

I'm guessing some big ass scary dude (bodyguard) ???

BTW, great detective work guys. I found this thread very interesting.

[Bolster]

UPDATE: With additional research, I've been able to determine not only where the old Plomb/Proto plant was, but which buildings remain, and what operations were performed in the various old buildings.

I'll be preparing my research for the folks who run PlombTools.com, and if they decide not to pick it up, then I'll publish my research here at a future date.

Long story short: A few old buildings do exist, mostly in the surrounding area, not many from the old Plomb campus. However, a few are still standing. You'll be able to see those in panorama photos I took.

Maps in the LA public library show Plomb (by name!) at the intersections of Santa Fe and Butte/23rd/24th (which is the southern location), and even go so far as to mention the various operations conducted in the many buildings. I am preparing all that and more for your reading pleasure...taking some time to get it all scanned/photographed/assembled.

Thanks for all your help. Idoine, I got into the artist's colony (stunningly beautiful inside, may I add). It's possible you may have been living in original Proto plant buildings, or possibly the buildings of a basket company next door--still waiting for some overlay maps to come in. I've got librarians working on it.

Thanks all ... Bolster

[eschoendorff]

UPDATE: With additional research, I've been able to determine not only where the old Plomb/Proto plant was, but which buildings remain, and what operations were performed in the various old buildings.

I'll be preparing my research for the folks who run PlombTools.com, and if they decide not to pick it up, then I'll publish my research here at a future date.

Long story short: A few old buildings do exist, mostly in the surrounding area, not many from the old Plomb campus. However, a few are still standing. You'll be able to see those in panorama photos I took.

Maps in the LA public library show Plomb (by name!) at the intersections of Santa Fe and Butte/23rd/24th (which is the southern location), and even go so far as to mention the various operations conducted in the many buildings. I am preparing all that and more for your reading pleasure...taking some time to get it all scanned/photographed/assembled.

Thanks for all your help. Idoine, I got into the artist's colony (stunningly beautiful inside, may I add). It's possible you may have been living in original Proto plant buildings, or possibly the buildings of a basket company next door--still waiting for some overlay maps to come in. I've got librarians working on it.

Thanks all ... Bolster

Please keep us posted... this thread delivers!

[nordstar]

Bolster good work. I can't wait to see what you find, keep on top of those librarians :). It would have been cool if more of the site survived, especially that corner building with the sign. Now we need to find the other sites:

Branch office in Chicago, Illinois located at 627 W. Washington Blvd established 1930

Milwaukie (Portland), Oregon: P & C Hand Forged Tool Company of Milwaukie, Oregon. Acquired in 1941 (Most likely this was what helped them win the WWII contracts, since it doubled the size of the company.)

Jamestown, NY Factory and Eastern Warehouse "J.P. Danielson Company" Acquired in 1947

Proto tools of Canada: London, Ontario


I might get around to photographing my Plomb and early Proto tools this weekend.

[Bolster]

Folks, my adventures finding the old plant are now posted here:

http://plombtools.com/LAFactory.aspx

[old salvage]

Good job.
Nice to see tha tat least some of the buildings are left.
Whoever runs that site is nice to put it up too.
Dont be discouraged by peoples lack of care.
I went to one of the buildings undergoing restoration in the old Brown & Sharpe complex. Asked a guy in the crew if I could have a souvenir and he gave me a brick and permission to look around.

[nordstar]

Great work Bolster and thanks for adding my stuff too. :thumbup:
I sure if we keep looking we can find other great stuff hiding in some library or archive that will have photos of some of the other buildings on the campus, for reference. Those other buildings that you took photos of do look very close the same style and if aren't from the Plomb campus where built from the during the same time frame and might be all we have left to look at.

[idoine in toronto]

Wow! Great work on digging into the past. I guess I was wrong about the Northern location as being the one. You did post a photo of the building that I lived in in the Santa Fe Art Colony. Its 2415 S. Santa Fe, the one story red brick just south of the 2 story red brick structure. I was always told it had been a robe factory at one point. My building dates back to the period your looking for and could have possibly had an earlier life in tool production. Its interesting to tour the area via Google Earth's street view and see many changes to the area even since my departure roughly 14 years ago. I hope you are able to keep connecting the dots and put additional pieces of the puzzle together.