Open Letter to the the Apathetic Taiwanese tool buyer

[Blacknwhitepit]

The value of tools.

For every professed buyer of tools who want to buy tools that are made in the USA only, or perhaps made in USA, Canada and Western Europe; there are an equal if not greater amount of people on this board who seem not to care where a tool is made "as long as it works"

Perhaps some American's view of how long tools should last is unrealistic.

I for one, believe that a "hard-line" tool should last a lifetime or at least be guaranteed for one, this is the standard by which I have grown up all my life.

While Europeans may pay less for quality tools which have no lifetime replacement, this does not reinforce the value and ensure goodwill of the product name. The Lifetime guarantee ensures a continued high value of that particular brand of tool. Consider this.

Off the top of your head what is a broken Snap on 10mm wrench worth on Ebay?

A Craftsman

A Bonney

An Elora


Now, lets say that it is a Taiwanese made tool.

Taiwanese only have value that is given to them if they have a truck brand label.

Look at your flea market.

Why are the USA made tools always more expensive than the Taiwanese/Chinese made tools?

Look at the bucket of sockets for sale there, which look better, perform better, and are worth more than their newer Asian counterparts after 20, 30 or 40 years of service?


There is a difference in quality depending on who produced it.

Just like Wall Street USA, Main Street USA knows the value of these products up to the second.


-BWP

[Lyaec350]

Huh? I look for a reasonable level of quality at a reasonable price. I can afford to buy all Snap-On, but don't because I don't feel that the difference in quality is worth the difference in price for most items when a carefully selected Craftsman Pro, S&K, GearWrench, Facom, or other tool is very comparable at a fraction the price. I would rather spend my money elsewhere or save it.

Additionally, I would almost rather a tool not have an unconditional, no questions asked guarantee because that just builds the cost of all the idiots using screwdrivers as prybars and chisels, chrome sockets in impacts, etc in to the cost of my tool. Ease of warranty replacement (Sat. or Sun. afternoon vs waiting for the 1/week truck stop, or even worse, the mail) is also very important to me.

[wilbilt]

I own many tools that have outlasted the lifetimes of my elders, and will outlast mine.

They were made with the blood and sweat of our forebears, in the factories that provided them the American Dream and fed their families.

These tools are all proudly stamped "USA".

Now those processes and know-how have been sold off for profit around the world. The good names of those companies built on the backs of hard-working Americans have been WHORED to Asia in efforts to turn a good quarter profit or pay the bonus of a departing CEO.

It is utterly disgusting to me what has been allowed to happen to American manufacturing. Although I don't really feel like feeding a Taiwanese or Chinese family with my earnings, I have bought items made there.

The saddest part of it all is that they are not proud enough of their stolen accomplishments to stamp their country's name on them. They choose to hide it on the package, in microscopic print on the back.

How can I possibly respect that? What does that say to me about their company or the quality of their products?

It tells me they are ashamed of who they are and what they have done.

[reversegear]

The saddest part of it all is that they are not proud enough of their stolen accomplishments to stamp their country's name on them. They choose to hide it on the package, in microscopic print on the back.

That's just ridiculous. The TW manufacturers stamp and package their products exactly the way the American companies tell them to. They are all ODM OEM manufacturers (with the exception of Toptul and a few others), and they have to follow what the marketing people for the big U.S. brands want.

[wantedabiggergarage]

The value of tools.

Perhaps some American's view of how long tools should last is unrealistic.

I for one, believe that a "hard-line" tool should last a lifetime or at least be guaranteed for one, this is the standard by which I have grown up all my life.


Off the top of your head what is a broken Snap on 10mm wrench worth on Ebay?

A Craftsman

A Bonney

An Elora


Now, lets say that it is a Taiwanese made tool.

Taiwanese only have value that is given to them if they have a truck brand label.

Look at your flea market.

Why are the USA made tools always more expensive than the Taiwanese/Chinese made tools?



-BWP

So many tools have a lifetime warranty, some, like Craftsman, have a satisfaction guarantee, that gets used a LOT more then the warranty (which covered defects in materials and workmanship, NOT wear and tear, or stupidity).
Guess what the satisfaction guarantee covers.............
Stupidity (screwdrivers as chisels, undressed tips, dull dykes, chrome wobbles on impacts, painted and spackled tape measures, etc) and wear and tear.
I have Lots of lifetime warrantied tools, that guess what, they lasted the lifetime of the company, and outlasted them. (Indestro, Durochrome, PowerKraft, Bonney, Challenger, Easco, Kraueter, etc.. Some of these may have merged into other companies, I don't know all (but am told it is expected of me:wtf: )) I also have some that the companies are still around, just different. (SK Wayne, SK, KD, etc)
I also had some JUNK, USA made sockets, from gramps. They were pot metal, and used an allen wrench to turn them. There were some Japanese made 3/4" drive sockets at the shop from the 60's or 70's that were MUCH better made. Today, I stopped by one of our local, junk tools places, that a few years ago, bought out some out of business auto part stores. They still have some old stock, USA made Cal-van, Plews, and KD, as well as some import Perfomance, and a few others. I looked at the Plews and Cal-van break bleeder wrenches, and I have seen stuff from HF that looks better. Probably part of the reason, these companies went to more import tools. Tool companies are international, for the most part (publically traded corporations), their ownership by country or people can change by day to day, and their bottom line is share price.
As to what your wrenches are worth, Snap~on, no warranty, $0.
Craftsman, can be exchanged, but costs are personal (gas, time to go to the store, what you can buy around you, etc.) Average is probably 50% of new.
Bonney, $0, a broken wrench, from an out of business company, might as well be my PowerKraft.
Elora, Don't know A thing about them. Have to check Charles G reference site for an address.

Taiwanese tools................
Gearwrench IS a tawainese tool. It could ALSO be called a foreign made American tool, as it is KD, which is a division of Armstrong, which is a division of Dahaner.
Broken 10mm Gearwrench, worth more then the Snap~on,(unless you have a good dealer or spend lots with one), Bonney, or Elora.

Why are USA made tools more, maybe Gearwrench will chime in here with facts about China's, cheap labor (massive population), lack of environmental, and safety boards (EPA, OSHA, Unions, cost of living, etc). We haven't even covered, the lack of free trade in China, or our deficit to them, etc.

Not a full picture by any means, but not exactly a simple problem either.

[wilbilt]

That's just ridiculous. The TW manufacturers stamp and package their products exactly the way the American companies tell them to. They are all ODM OEM manufacturers (with the exception of Toptul and a few others), and they have to follow what the marketing people for the big U.S. brands want.

They label the products in the way the US companies know they can get away with, and the FTC allows it. The marketers, the manufacturers and agencies such as the FTC are all part of the plan to dismantle America for profit.

As a consumer, I see the labeling practices as an attempt to hide their shame.

I would expect you to have a different point of view, and that is fine with me.

I would not imagine there are many US export products not having "Made in USA" stamped on them.

[Joe B.]

They still make stuff in Taiwan? That has got to be expensive! Most of their electronics industry moved to China about a decade ago. I guess there are still lots of great engineers in Taiwan designing stuff to be built in other countries.

Why is Taiwan so much worse than Canada or Western Europe? They are all fully industrialized countries. It is not like Taiwan is some third world country full of slave labor. I might see a complaint about China with their horrendous human rights record and questionable trade practices. Taiwan even spends a lot of time waving its middle finger at the mainland that still considers Taiwan a possession.

Seems like only the left wing Liberals still think it might be a bad idea to do business with a country that treats their citizens so poorly.

[wantedabiggergarage]

I own many tools that have outlasted the lifetimes of my elders, and will outlast mine.

They were made with the blood and sweat of our forebears, in the factories that provided them the American Dream and fed their families.

These tools are all proudly stamped "USA".

Now those processes and know-how have been sold off for profit around the world. The good names of those companies built on the backs of hard-working Americans have been WHORED to Asia in efforts to turn a good quarter profit or pay the bonus of a departing CEO.



Just an example, Stanley, USED to make hand planes here (I own several). Then they made them in England (and the quality suffered, but they still sold and made a profit). Stanley, the COMPANY moved off those processes and know how (not sure there are many people who made handplanes for them still around). Guess who could bring it back, if it was profitable for them? Stanley, the multinational corporation.
I have seen foreign planes stamped India, China just spends less and uses stickers, because they can sell it to 25 different companies, with whatever color handles they want.

[Blacknwhitepit]

As to what your wrenches are worth, Snap~on, no warranty, $0.
Craftsman, can be exchanged, but costs are personal (gas, time to go to the store, what you can buy around you, etc.) Average is probably 50% of new.
Bonney, $0, a broken wrench, from an out of business company, might as well be my PowerKraft.
Elora, Don't know A thing about them. Have to check Charles G reference site for an address.



My question was, What were they worth on EBAY? Which is "The market"

I appreciate your opinion.

I do not mean to insult anyone who buys Taiwanese tools. I am talking about long term value, which has a direct correlation with quality.

I am not waving the flag.

-BWP

[wilbilt]

Value, to me:

I look at a USA tool and think, "This tool helped build my country".

I look at a Taiwanese tool and think "This tool helped destroy my country".

I look at a Taiwanese tool that doesn't say "Taiwan" on it and think, "This tool helped destroy my country and nobody even knew it".

[Joe B.]

You guys must hate to go shopping for power tools. Just about every brands is either made in China or headed that direction. The only US company left seems to have no interest in keeping jobs here. (B&D/DeWalt/Porter-Cable)

[reversegear]

Value, to me:

I look at a USA tool and think, "This tool helped build my country".

I look at a Taiwanese tool and think "This tool helped destroy my country".

I look at a Taiwanese tool that doesn't say "Taiwan" on it and think, "This tool helped destroy my country and nobody even knew it".

Do you feel the same way when you see a German car or a Japanese TV?

Which Asian country is developing battle plans to neutralize the U.S. Pacific fleet? China. Which country is sending its "unauthorized" Christians to labor camps? China. Which country supports North Korea while they develop nuclear weapons? China.

But you think tools from Taiwan are destroying your country?

[Merkava_4]

Why is the broken Snap-on 10mm worth zero dollars? I depends on how it's broken I would think. If it was broken under normal use, I'd say it's worth the value of a new one. If it was broken while being used improperly or abused, then yeah, it's worth zero.

[wilbilt]

Do you feel the same way when you see a German car or a Japanese TV?

Which Asian country is developing battle plans to neutralize the U.S. Pacific fleet? China. Which country is sending its "unauthorized" Christians to labor camps? China. Which country supports North Korea while they develop nuclear weapons? China.

But you think tools from Taiwan are destroying your country?

Regarding the car or the TV, no. They will have the country of manufacture indicated on them, so a potential buyer can make an informed choice. Even a used car or TV will be so marked 99% of the time.

In the case of tools from Taiwan, China or anywhere else yes, if they are not labeled as such.

Brand recognition and perception of value are a big part of it. A consumer buying a Sanyo TV, for example, expects that it is imported. Long after the box is thrown away, he can look at the tag on the back of the set and the country of manufacture will be listed there. It is the law.

Somebody buying a Mercedes or BMW will assume it was made in Germany and can look at the door tag to see where it was built and make an informed choice. That tag is in the same place on every new car. It has to be. The next buyer of that car can look at that federally-mandated tag and receive the same information, as it is not legal to remove or deface that tag under the law.

Now go buy a Craftsman tool, or a Matco tool, or a tool of any other brand you recognize as being US made due to reputation or prior experience. Look for the country of origin on the package (if you can find it on the package, assuming there is a package). Maybe you don't even look, as you know from past experience that brand is domestically produced. Take it home and throw the package away, as nearly everyone does.

Now tell me where it was made. Buy it used somewhere and tell me where it was made.

Why is it that cars and electronics and even underwear are required to be labeled with origin on the product itself, but tools are not?

I say it is to intentionally mislead and deceive consumers, and have not heard any meaningful arguments otherwise.

When the FTC can turn a blind eye to tools stamped "Neiko Tools USA" that are imported, it tells me that it isn't just the manufacturers and marketers that are playing this game.

I believe this practice is destroying my country, and that has a lot to do with the "value" I place on a tool.

[Merkava_4]

I had to look up "Apathetic" in the dictionary; I learned a new word tonight. :badteeth:

[wrenhandtools]

wow. All this emotion and effort going towards a tool discussion. I would expect this about good beers more so than tools.

I have 20 years of experience on Wall Street and know full well that I personally would like more manufacturing jobs here in the US than exist now because they pay higher wages than most and provide a good life style for the family.

But also I know a poorly run company when I see one, no matter on what continent it is domiciled. You simply can not say that anything is better just because it is made in one country or another. Well I guess you can say it............

Curiously I would like to ask.........now that Budweiser has been bought and paid for by InBev of Belgium.............does this mean that the lot of jingoistic drinkers will now drink Coors instead??

Also don't get me wrong...I love the differing opinions and discussions and don't mind differences of opinion. That is what makes the US so great. Freedom of choice.

By the way long-term value is implied and intrinsic and has very little bearing on what one human will pay another on ebay.

In other words it is perceived and not real when each wrench will turn the nut to the same torque, in the same manner, with the same tactile feel. Just as several different beers will each have the same effect after 10 of 'em.

[wilbilt]

I never drink Budweiser. It is a pathetic excuse for beer.

When I drink beer, I know where it was made, because it says so right on the bottle. Being able to make an informed decision has a value of it's own. :)

[Merkava_4]

You guys must hate to go shopping for power tools. Just about every brands is either made in China or headed that direction.

I saw a beautiful corded Milwaukee 1/2" drill the other day at the local hardware store; Made In China. :cool:

[wrenhandtools]

The beer is made here, but is owned by a foreign company.
It would be what might be termed...an analogy.

So now I'm curious, and trying to change the subject, what is your favorite beer?

[wrenhandtools]

by the way, how old does one have to be to obtain the level of Senior Member with all the attending Merit Badges.

[wilbilt]

The beer is made here, but is owned by a foreign company.
It would be what might be termed...an analogy.

So now I'm curious, and trying to change the subject, what is your favorite beer?

As opposed to a beer owned by a domestic company but brewed elsewhere?

Favorite beer would depend on the occasion. Guinness would rank pretty high for a special occasion for me. Certainly not for pounding down while pushing the lawnmower.

Sierra Nevada brews a few I like, including their Porter and IPA.

Old Rasputin is another I favor on occasion.

Pyramid Hefeweizen as well.

One single favorite? I don't have one. I am partial to ales and lagers for the most part.

[Merkava_4]

by the way, how old does one have to be to obtain the level of Senior Member with all the attending Merit Badges.

You have to have a 100 posts. I'm not a senior member yet either.

[wantedabiggergarage]

by the way, how old does one have to be to obtain the level of Senior Member with all the attending Merit Badges.


Senior member has to do with post count I believe (maybe how long you been on the board as well, if you stayed up all day and posted in EVERY post, would you get to be a Senior member quicker?).

As for beer, I don't drink the stuff. Back when I drank (gave it up as I became the regular designated driver LONG story) I drank Grain mixed with coke or Koolaid ( or a couple other hard liquors). Never could stand the taste of beer (unless a root beer float on a hot day counts, LOL).
Since the buyout, KC now has Missouri's largest brewer in it; Boulevard.

Your example is what I have been talking about with corporations. They can be domestic one day, foreign the next, then another takeover (Say Coors made a hostile bid tomorrow), and back again.

[wilbilt]

You have to have a 100 posts. I'm not a senior member yet either.

That's because you have deleted most of them...:lol_hitti

[wrenhandtools]

Will,

I like those beers as well. Good choices!
When you get a chance, now I'm serious here.....try a couple varieties from Chimay.
Comes from the Trapest (sp) in Belgium.

100 posts huh....maybe I'll just keep typing tonight!

[wilbilt]

Your example is what I have been talking about with corporations. They can be domestic one day, foreign the next, then another takeover (Say Coors made a hostile bid tomorrow), and back again.

Yet when you use their products (beer), you can see the origin labeled right on the package (the bottle). When you throw the package away, you no longer have the origin label, but it does not matter, for you will soon no longer have the product.

In the case of tools that will last for many years, it's a bit different.

[wrenhandtools]

well ok. I HAVE to agree with that statement.....but no more....I'm at my limit.

[wantedabiggergarage]

In the case of tools that will last for many years, it's a bit different.


Tools wasn't the reference there. The corporations was (this can affect how they think/act, and market the company, direction they choose to go, etc).

[wilbilt]

Tools wasn't the reference there. The corporations was (this can affect how they think/act, and market the company, direction they choose to go, etc).

I know they have to answer to the stockholders and change direction as the market dictates. Lately however, it seems that tactics have risen to a new low (so to speak).

[reversegear]

Yet when you use their products (beer), you can see the origin labeled right on the package (the bottle). When you throw the package away, you no longer have the origin label, but it does not matter, for you will soon no longer have the product.

In the case of tools that will last for many years, it's a bit different.

Unless you are overseas and end up drinking a Budweiser that was brewed in China (They have been brewing there for 13 years). No marking on bottle or can to indicate where it was made. I never studied the other packaging, but I doubt that the marking is very obvious, if it is there at all.

[Merkava_4]

This thread is a total mess. :cool:

[bushhawg73]

This thread is a total mess. :cool:

Yes it is. I appreciate a good tool and I think that some of the stuff that is made in the USA is great. On the other hand, give me some German made Knipex pliers and Ill gladley place them in my tool box with the snap on tools.

I think that there is a general attitude that is USA wide and that is do it fast, cheap and now. I take pride in my work and want it to be the best.

TOOO many things are disposable in todays world. That goes for the companies that built them.

Bankrupt as "ALL STAR TOOLS" because we built crap, NO PROBLEM. Change the name and register as a new company. Reset the dies, change the ink on the box and sell sell selll. Untill they realize that were selling CRAP.

Just my 25 cents worth.

:beer:

[Vinko]

I like the real Budweiser, brewed in the Czech Republic. Now that's a beer.

[eschoendorff]

I also had some JUNK, USA made sockets, from gramps. They were pot metal, and used an allen wrench to turn them.

Yup. In my opinion, made in USA is no longer a guarantee of quality. How many crap Craftsman tools have you picked up lately? I would much rather use a Taiwanese GearWrench ratchet than a USA made Craftsman raised panel.

I love my country and am willing to purchase USA made products whenever possible... but for an added cose, they must also have added quality.

[wrenhandtools]

Yes Merkava it is, but it has been fun!!!

[Stuey]

I had to look up "Apathetic" in the dictionary; I learned a new word tonight. :badteeth:

Huh?:wtf: Snap-On makes shiney dictionaries?

[Frank Elson]

If a furriner can make two points please.

1. I live in the former cotton industry area of the UK. We gave it away to countries with cheap labour. We'll never get it back. You should learn from our mistake.

2. Nearly every one of us here has bought a cheap tool at some time or another. Doesn't matter where it was made. It broke. Most of us won't buy another, and shouldn't. We should learn from our mistakes.

oh, and a third point. Lancashire beer beats Coors, Bud and all that other stuff :-)
one mistake we don't make.

[wilbilt]

This thread is a total mess. :cool:

Yes, but you can blame me for it as usual.

The first sentence in the the thread can be interpreted many ways. Value is measured not just by cost, quality, or worth.

[Jononon]

Yorkshire beer beats Coors, Bud and all that other stuff :-)

I spotted a mistake :p

[Blacknwhitepit]

Yes, but you can blame me for it as usual.

The first sentence in the the thread can be interpreted many ways. Value is measured not just by cost, quality, or worth.


That is a great signature quote Wilbilt.

"We were taking a vote when the ground came up and hit us"

From a 28 year old show comes a very relevant quote about indecision and the lack of leadership.

:thumbup:

-BWP

[Thumper]

Well hell............ I drink my USA homebrewed beer while using my "Made in USA" tools to work on my Vintage AMERICAN cars ! :thumbup:

[rhandwor]

I try to buy built in the U.S. but they don't make everything you want. Most of them are run by bean counters and they worry about costs so much they force you to by foreign.

[oldtools]

I own many tools that have outlasted the lifetimes of my elders, and will outlast mine.

They were made with the blood and sweat of our forebears, in the factories that provided them the American Dream and fed their families.

These tools are all proudly stamped "USA".

Now those processes and know-how have been sold off for profit around the world. The good names of those companies built on the backs of hard-working Americans have been WHORED to Asia in efforts to turn a good quarter profit or pay the bonus of a departing CEO.

It is utterly disgusting to me what has been allowed to happen to American manufacturing. Although I don't really feel like feeding a Taiwanese or Chinese family with my earnings, I have bought items made there.

The saddest part of it all is that they are not proud enough of their stolen accomplishments to stamp their country's name on them. They choose to hide it on the package, in microscopic print on the back.

How can I possibly respect that? What does that say to me about their company or the quality of their products?

It tells me they are ashamed of who they are and what they have done.


Why would they be ashamed to stamp their country on tool made for such reputable company as SO, MAC, Matco, Cornwell, etc. If I was the Asian company (or the Chinese government), I would be dam proud to show the world that my manufacturing capability is world class (so good that SO, MAC, etc selected my company to make tools for them).

The Chinese are not ashamed to stamp "China" on SO, MAC, Cornwell, etc tools. They do what are are told by these American companies. It is these American companies that are being deceitful to the American people. They are concern they may loose customer if "China" is stamped on their tools. They are the one that is ruining America. They approach China to made tools for them not vise versa. Don't blame China for the actions of these decietful and greedy American companies. I would also blame the union for causing these companies to go oversea.

[oldtools]

Value, to me:

I look at a USA tool and think, "This tool helped build my country".

I look at a Taiwanese tool and think "This tool helped destroy my country".

I look at a Taiwanese tool that doesn't say "Taiwan" on it and think, "This tool helped destroy my country and nobody even knew it".

The union destroy your country. It is a two ways street. American buy Taiwanese tools and Taiwanese buy American tools as well. If American companies produce more affordable quality tools, then American wouldn't have to buy quality Taiwanese tools. Taiwanese companies do not force American to buy their tools. It is the Americans that choose to buy Taiwanese tools. If American companies choose not stamp country of origin on their foreign made tools, then these American companies are to blame, not the OEM.

I bet most of what you owned are foreign made.

[wilbilt]

If American companies choose not stamp country of origin on their foreign made tools, then these American companies are to blame, not the OEM.

You are correct in that statement. The US government is also to blame for allowing it to happen.


I bet most of what you owned are foreign made.

You would lose that bet.

[Frank Elson]

I remember in the 1960s there was some fuss in the press about Americans buying up our UK companies.
Then in the 1970s there was a similar fuss about the Japanese buying up UK companies.
Then in the 1980s there was a fuss about Arabs buying up UK companies.
In the 1990s it was quiet for a while.
Now the Chinese and Indians are buying up UK companies.

Learn to live with it guys. We're still here and earning a bit of money.

[trackwelder]

Why would they be ashamed to stamp their country on tool made for such reputable company as SO, MAC, Matco, Cornwell, etc. If I was the Asian company (or the Chinese government), I would be dam proud to show the world that my manufacturing capability is world class (so good that SO, MAC, etc selected my company to make tools for them).

The Chinese are not ashamed to stamp "China" on SO, MAC, Cornwell, etc tools. They do what are are told by these American companies. It is these American companies that are being deceitful to the American people. They are concern they may loose customer if "China" is stamped on their tools. They are the one that is ruining America. They approach China to made tools for them not vise versa. Don't blame China for the actions of these decietful and greedy American companies. I would also blame the union for causing these companies to go oversea.

Can you please post some proof where a union caused a tool
company to go overseas! The problem with company's is pisspoor
management , and greed period.

[autoace]

Why would they be ashamed to stamp their country on tool made for such reputable company as SO, MAC, Matco, Cornwell, etc. If I was the Asian company (or the Chinese government), I would be dam proud to show the world that my manufacturing capability is world class (so good that SO, MAC, etc selected my company to make tools for them).

The Chinese are not ashamed to stamp "China" on SO, MAC, Cornwell, etc tools. They do what are are told by these American companies. It is these American companies that are being deceitful to the American people. They are concern they may loose customer if "China" is stamped on their tools. They are the one that is ruining America. They approach China to made tools for them not vise versa. Don't blame China for the actions of these decietful and greedy American companies. I would also blame the union for causing these companies to go oversea.

I've read alot of your posts, If you live in the USA, move to Asia,you are in the wrong country.

[ZRX61]

I remember in the 1960s there was some fuss in the press about Americans buying up our UK companies.
Then in the 1970s there was a similar fuss about the Japanese buying up UK companies.
Then in the 1980s there was a fuss about Arabs buying up UK companies.
In the 1990s it was quiet for a while.
Now the Chinese and Indians are buying up UK companies.

Learn to live with it guys. We're still here and earning a bit of money.

UK is the biggest foreign business owner in the US & HRH Liz is the biggest land owner in Kentucky :)

[ZRX61]

Can you please post some proof where a union caused a tool company to go overseas! The problem with company's is pisspoor management , and greed period.

Cost of business is too expensive with union involvement, so it could be argued that the union is the one suffering from greed..

[RbrtAWhyt]

Can you please post some proof where a union caused a tool
company to go overseas! The problem with company's is pisspoor
management , and greed period.

Its not just tool companies. American union workers demand high wages and benefits. Foreign workers dont. Products can be made cheaper off shore. The union is the downfall of american companies.

[trackwelder]

Its not just tool companies. American union workers demand high wages and benefits. Foreign workers dont. Products can be made cheaper off shore. The union is the downfall of american companies.

Ok you make this statement which companys are affected. You will most likely say ford, gm, chysler etc. These and many other companys complain about union labor all sat down and made the contracts and now want to back out because there profit margins are down. The downfall of american companies is without a doubt mangement that is in it for the quick buck and could care less about the strength and integrity of the company. They do what ever it takes to make the next quarter great to get there huge bonuses and perks and could care less about the workers regardless if they are union or not union.

[SpiderGearsMan]

did not see a mention of the FTC in the bill of rights
too much government , making doing business in america a too hard operation

[RbrtAWhyt]

Ok you make this statement which companys are affected. You will most likely say ford, gm, chysler etc. These and many other companys complain about union labor all sat down and made the contracts and now want to back out because there profit margins are down. The downfall of american companies is without a doubt mangement that is in it for the quick buck and could care less about the strength and integrity of the company. They do what ever it takes to make the next quarter great to get there huge bonuses and perks and could care less about the workers regardless if they are union or not union.

I think you make my point for me...

[krusty the clown]

I think you make my point for me...

uhhh....i don't see that. the cost of labor is small compared to warranty expenses, advertising, and r&d. i'm gonna have to go with trackwelder on this one. there are only three things that can go wrong in a company......managment, managment, and of course there is managment.

[dwilliams35]

uhhh....i don't see that. the cost of labor is small compared to warranty expenses, advertising, and r&d. i'm gonna have to go with trackwelder on this one. there are only three things that can go wrong in a company......managment, managment, and of course there is managment. It's not that small: there's $1500 worth of healthcare in every GM car. Now figure out what the percentage of labor cost is healthcare. The unions have truly priced themselves out of the market: if a guy in a detroit factory is making fifty bucks an hour to drive a forklift, and the same non-union job is for ten or twelve an hour, the difference comes directly out of the profit margin: nowhere else. Multiply that by the number of employees in a plant, and there's no company in the world that could afford to babysit a union and remain competitive with non-union plants. Advertising, R&D, and warranties are fixed expenses: they are there whether it's a union plant or not. The labor, on the other hand, can very easily be the tipping point that sends a company overseas or at the very least to a right-to-work state. It's not management's job to provide work for employees, union or not. It's their job to maximize shareholder wealth. Period. If that can be done in a non-union plant more easily than in a union plant, so be it.

[trackwelder]

I think you make my point for me...

How did I do that. Why don't you make your point, I am waiting. Please enlighten me on how union laborer was the sole reason to go overseas and not greedy management looking to cut costs and boost profit margins to line their own pockets. They manufacture overseas and sell the junk at the same prices and make a killing. Meanwhile we have layed of workers who spent their wages in the town they reside in have no choice but to work at walmart
and in turn have much less to live on and spend in the community.

[trackwelder]

It's not that small: there's $1500 worth of healthcare in every GM car. Now figure out what the percentage of labor cost is healthcare. The unions have truly priced themselves out of the market: if a guy in a detroit factory is making fifty bucks an hour to drive a forklift, and the same non-union job is for ten or twelve an hour, the difference comes directly out of the profit margin: nowhere else. Multiply that by the number of employees in a plant, and there's no company in the world that could afford to babysit a union and remain competitive with non-union plants. Advertising, R&D, and warranties are fixed expenses: they are there whether it's a union plant or not. The labor, on the other hand, can very easily be the tipping point that sends a company overseas or at the very least to a right-to-work state. It's not management's job to provide work for employees, union or not. It's their job to maximize shareholder wealth. Period. If that can be done in a non-union plant more easily than in a union plant, so be it.

Very few union jobs that have been outsourced where making know where near the UAW wages. The wages and healthcare where all hammered out with managements consent. Again these rates are not typical to most unions.

[dwilliams35]

Very few union jobs that have been outsourced where making know where near the UAW wages. The wages and healthcare where all hammered out with managements consent. Again these rates are not typical to most unions.

A) can you rephrase that first sentence: not quite sure what you're saying there.
B) Yes, they were "hammered out with management's consent": With a union gun to their head: give us this or we strike. At that point, it's a simple cost/benefit decision: is it cheaper to pay overpriced labor or to pack up a full size factory and tote it off to Mexico. As the former goes up over time, the latter becomes more attractive to shareholders.
C) The sheer fact that there is a collective bargaining agreement delineating wages means that they are not at the level which the market for such labor would dictate. That being the case, I absolutely guarantee that it's higher, not lower, than that market level. Nature of the beast.

[Alfajuj]

I have to agree with trackwelder on this one. It's not the labor cost which is the deciding factor. Swiss watches are still made in Switzerland with Swiss labor. Those companies can still manage to survive because people are willing to pay more for Swiss quality. Now if the Swiss companies were pathologically greedy (like some tool brands we all know), they would have the watches made in a lower cost country and just slap their brand on there. Then they would simply stop putting the word "Swiss" on the bottom of the watch dial and hope that no one would notice.
I was in the industrial supply house the other day looking at Bosch rotary hammers and there were two items with the same model number and they looked identical but there was a handwritten sign on one of them that said "Made in Germany" I looked at the other one and it had in TINY letters "made in PRC". They were the same price, so I asked the salesman what was the story. What buyer with at least two brain cells to rub together would voluntarily pay the same money for made in PRC as made in Germany? He said no. The made in Germany was the last of his stocks. He only has 5 left. In the future they'll all be made in China. So if I want made in Germany, I had better hurry. I said thanks but no thanks. I'll do without a rotary hammer today...

They have a huge cost savings but the price is the same. Doesn't that make you feel cheated? The same process is happening with handtools.

The big players in tools have a choice. They can choose to produce in the USA. The unions are not forcing their hand. I don't care how they try to justify it, they're just being greedy.
I'll buy Hazet, thank you, untill they stop being made in Germany. If they do, I'll switch to Stahlwille or Elora.

[ZRX61]

Look at the bucket of sockets for sale there, which look better, perform better, and are worth more than their newer Asian counterparts after 20, 30 or 40 years of service?


I have 30 year old asian sockets I use just about every day....

[rhandwor]

I try to buy U S but some occasional use tools I buy foreign. Some U S tool mfg's don't sell.
I'm finding U S only manufacturers are now selling foreign. OTC,Mac, Blue Point and ect.
Some like craftsman use foreign but finish it in the U S so they can say it was made in the U S. The auto Manufacturers are doing away with their customers. Ford, and Chevy people always worked on their cars. They always come up with new type bolts to discourage this and are forcing poor people to buy foreign. They add many more computers than needed.
They are doing away with their customers.