A good welder for a beginner to learn on [Archive]

Vicegrip

09-08-2008, 11:33 PM

Which process are you interested in learning?

Learning to weld is something you can't teach yourself; you need to watch others do it. A community college with a good welding program is the best way to go.I will have to disagree on the totality of that statement. I Mig, Tig, Stick, and Gas weld learning all from books and hands on.

Stick is the cheapest and on the surface the simplest of the methods but Mig is easer to get OK results right out of the box. I like Miller machines but all of the big names make good entry level machines. IMO steer clear of the no name machines. They will frustrate you someday. Good used machines come up all the time on Craig's list and the like. A Hobart 180 Mig or there about is a good start. It is a 220 volt machine which is a bit of a pain but can hobby weld thin and thick metals, The MIller 140 Mig is a good 120 Volt machine and can weld 1/4 stock even in amateur hands.

My little pile of transformers and wire.

ericedelman

09-08-2008, 11:35 PM

I'm not a professional welder, but you'd be much further ahead spending your money on a welding class. The 110 mig machines don't use gas, they use flux cored wire. They are messy, smelly, and difficult to get any kind of penetration into the material. You'll also need to spend as much as that little machine costs in protective gear and clamps to do anything, and by the time you figure that out, you'll have outgrown the 110 machine and want something bigger. (Welders are like boats, you can always justify the next size up.)

I've got a Millermatic 180 mig and a Spectrum 375 plasma. These are 220 machines and probably the minimum necessary for even just fooling around at home and actually being able to stick two pieces of metal together.

If you take a class, you'll start with gas and arc welding. Once you learn those, mig and tig aren't so hard.

nissan_crawler

09-08-2008, 11:35 PM

Merkava has a good point, a college class is usually quite cheap and well worth it if you don't know much about it.

Secondly, unless you absolutely, positively, 100% can not get a 220 welder, I wouldn't bother with a 110. They're way too limited, IMHO.

Toolking.com fully rocks for their prices on new and reconditioned Hobarts. I would recommend the Hobart 140 if you MUST go 110, otherwise I would recommend the Hobart 187. I have the older version, the 175. It only has 4 voltage taps, vs. 7 on the 187.

rickairmedic

09-08-2008, 11:41 PM

Look at the hobart welders at your local tractor supply . I would agree a 220 volt welder in the hobart line isnt much more expensive than a 110 version MIG is the process I would suggest if you just want to learn and do a little tinkering around the garage ( you can get a 110 welder that uses shielding gas ). I might get flamed for this but another option is good old harbor freight you can pick up a 110 volt gas or flux core welder there on the cheap to learn on then when you really get into it sell it on craigslist for money towards a 220 volt welder . I had a 110 welder from harbor freight for years finally sold it to a neighbor who wants to learn for not much less than what I paid for it .

Rick

nissan_crawler

09-08-2008, 11:42 PM

I will have to disagree on the totality of that statement. I Mig, Tig, Stick, and Gas weld learning all from books and hands on.

Stick is the cheapest and on the surface the simplest of the methods but Mig is easer to get OK results right out of the box. I like Miller machines but all of the big names make good entry level machines. IMO steer clear of the no name machines. They will frustrate you someday. Good used machines come up all the time on Craig's list and the like. A Hobart 180 Mig or there about is a good start. It is a 220 volt machine which is a bit of a pain but can hobby weld thin and thick metals, The MIller 140 Mig is a good 120 Volt machine.

Eh, that goes both ways. I've seen self-taught that think they know and have no clue, and I've seen taught that think they know and have no clue. In the end, a class is much better to learn by, though.

I was taught to weld at age 8. I took Industrial Tech in high school, the first project was to weld two sections of old grade blade together, which we all did. The teacher then said he was going to "break them apart and check the welds", at which point I laughed. He asked why, and I told him there was no way. He told me there's never been a weld he couldn't break.:confused:

He beat and beat and beat and beat on mine with a sledge...and ended up breaking a 10" wilton vise in two. I got an A.:spit:

I haven't tig'ed, but I can mig/gas/stick weld just fine. All I did for the first 3 years I owned my house was ocy/acetylene welding.

I'm not a professional welder, but you'd be much further ahead spending your money on a welding class. The 110 mig machines don't use gas, they use flux cored wire. They are messy, smelly, and difficult to get any kind of penetration into the material. You'll also need to spend as much as that little machine costs in protective gear and clamps to do anything, and by the time you figure that out, you'll have outgrown the 110 machine and want something bigger. (Welders are like boats, you can always justify the next size up.)

I've got a Millermatic 180 mig and a Spectrum 375 plasma. These are 220 machines and probably the minimum necessary for even just fooling around at home and actually being able to stick two pieces of metal together.

If you take a class, you'll start with gas and arc welding. Once you learn those, mig and tig aren't so hard.

Some good points, but the 110 being flux is wrong. SOME are only flux, but not that many. Likewise, you can run flux core in a 210 welder, also. The flux core actually gets better penetration than gas.

I do agree with a 110 welder being a poor choice if you have the electrical for a 220 welder.

Vicegrip

09-09-2008, 12:22 AM

The 110 mig machines don't use gas, they use flux cored wire. They are messy, smelly, and difficult to get any kind of penetration into the material.

I've got a Millermatic 180 mig and a Spectrum 375 plasma. These are 220 machines and probably the minimum necessary for even just fooling around at home and actually being able to stick two pieces of metal together.

If you take a class, you'll start with gas and arc welding. Once you learn those, mig and tig aren't so hard.That is 100% not true about 120 volt machines both being flux only and worthless. There are plenty of good 120 volt Mig (Metal Inert Gas) welding machines. 120 volt welders are good for lots of home owner welding such as automotive and hobby and fully able to weld up to 1/4 with even basic prep and methods an don't require an expensive 220V outlet to be installed. If/when you "move up" to a machine that is more capable in power or process you will still have the portable 120V for the remote tasks such as Aunt Ruth's gate hinge and the like.
BTW. Flux core has better penetration Watt for Watt than gas shielded wire fed electric welding. It is not a poor mans method. Flux core gets used professionally all the time and in many cases is a preferred method. I use the Miller 130XP with shielding gas all the time for all kinds of things including track car fabrication work. I can easily make welds in many positions that pass the standards and tests used for certification using the MM135. I only go to the MM251 or the Syncrowave when it is called for by the charts or in process. The #15 gun is small and easer to get in and around than the #25 on the 251.

Mig and Tig are miles apart in method skill and execution. They do share the same thing that all welding does. Puddle management. Watch and work the puddle of molten metal. Wear good protective gear and get in and close so you can see the puddle and work it along.

All the welds in the images were made with the MM135 using C25 shielding gas.

Merkava_4

09-09-2008, 12:25 AM

I will have to disagree on the totality of that statement. I Mig, Tig, Stick, and Gas weld learning all from books and hands on.

How much money did you spend on consumables while you were teaching yourself to weld? I'm talking about shielding gas and hard wire for MIG welding and electrodes for SMAW welding. What about the steel to practice on, did that arrive on your doorstep for free? Those consumables are not cheap; I would think that a community college tuition would be a lot less costly. :cool:

Vicegrip

09-09-2008, 12:50 AM

Do you weld? I ask as your question is not on point and you normally are. The consumables are not all that expensive and I priced a single round of CC welding classes. The classes were $1600 plus lab costs and you would still not have al your process certs. Wire is about $3 to $4 a pound and you can make welds all day with a pound or two. A fill on a C25 80CF tank is $35 to $55 depending on where you go and who you know and far less if you use CO2. At the normal flow rates a 80 CF tank will run for 4 hours of gun on welding. Try and spend 4 hours of trigger time in a day. Metal cost while learning is nothing or close to. Get some junk yard scrap of various thickness and cut it up. Read the book that comes with the welder and weld then break your welds. Then read library sourced books and weld some more. The more you weld the more the stuff in the books will make sense. Miller has a great website with forums and tons of free or cheap printed training materials that pertain to all methods and machines not just the blue ones. $25 will get you a box of books charts and guides.

I am not in any way discounting taking classes. I have taken many Community college classes and earn a living from the knowledge learned in the HVAC program. I am only dispelling some commonly held but incorrect beliefs about welding and welders such as what a 120V MIG can do or not do. There are some hard truths but those are in the books or inside the door. ;) (Most MIG welders have a quick lookup chart inside the door.)

Merkava_4

09-09-2008, 01:16 AM

Do you weld? I ask as your question is not on point and you normally are. The consumables are not all that expensive and I priced a single round of CC welding classes. The classes were $1600 plus lab costs and you would still not have al your process certs.

Where are you getting the $1600 from? When I attended the program at Fresno City Community College the tuition was $11 per unit and the cert tests were $40 per test. One class plus a couple of cert tests would only run me $146 per semester.

nissan_crawler

09-09-2008, 01:17 AM

That is 100% not true about 120 volt machines both being flux only and worthless. There are plenty of good 120 volt Mig (Metal Inert Gas) welding machines. 120 volt welders are good for lots of home owner welding such as automotive and hobby and fully able to weld up to 1/4 with even basic prep and methods an don't require an expensive 220V outlet to be installed. If/when you "move up" to a machine that is more capable in power or process you will still have the portable 120V for the remote tasks such as Aunt Ruth's gate hinge and the like.
BTW. Flux core has better penetration Watt for Watt than gas shielded wire fed electric welding. It is not a poor mans method. Flux core gets used professionally all the time and in many cases is a preferred method. I use the Miller 130XP with shielding gas all the time for all kinds of things including track car fabrication work. I can easily make welds in many positions that pass the standards and tests used for certification using the MM135. I only go to the MM251 or the Syncrowave when it is called for by the charts or in process. The #15 gun is small and easer to get in and around than the #25 on the 251.

Mig and Tig are miles apart in method skill and execution. They do share the same thing that all welding does. Puddle management. Watch and work the puddle of molten metal. Wear good protective gear and get in and close so you can see the puddle and work it along.

All the welds in the images were made with the MM135 using C25 shielding gas.

I STRONGLY disagree with making a 1/4" weld with a 110 machine. Even on my 175 amp welder, it needs to be fully cranked for proper penetration. Besides, a hh187 is just as portable as an hh140.

Do you weld? I ask as your question is not on point and you normally are. The consumables are not all that expensive and I priced a single round of CC welding classes. The classes were $1600 plus lab costs and you would still not have al your process certs. Wire is about $3 to $4 a pound and you can make welds all day with a pound or two. A fill on a C25 80CF tank is $35 to $55 depending on where you go and who you know and far less if you use CO2. At the normal flow rates a 80 CF tank will run for 4 hours of gun on welding. Try and spend 4 hours of trigger time in a day. Metal cost while learning is nothing or close to. Get some junk yard scrap of various thickness and cut it up. Read the book that comes with the welder and weld then break your welds. Then read library sourced books and weld some more. The more you weld the more the stuff in the books will make sense. Miller has a great website with forums and tons of free or cheap printed training materials that pertain to all methods and machines not just the blue ones. $25 will get you a box of books charts and guides.

I am not in any way discounting taking classes. I have taken many Community college classes and earn a living from the knowledge learned in the HVAC program. I am only dispelling some commonly held but incorrect beliefs about welding and welders such as what a 120V MIG can do or not do. There are some hard truths but those are in the books or inside the door. ;) (Most MIG welders have a quick lookup chart inside the door.)

Consumables aren't expensive? The last spool of wire I bought sure wasn't cheap. As for the course costs you're quoting, holy shit! Most places you can take a class for $75-200.

Nealcrenshaw

09-09-2008, 02:12 AM

eschoendorff

09-09-2008, 05:06 AM

PAToyota

09-09-2008, 09:01 AM

Eh, that goes both ways. I've seen self-taught that think they know and have no clue, and I've seen taught that think they know and have no clue. In the end, a class is much better to learn by, though.

I agree totally. I started out trying to teach myself decades ago and thought I was doing pretty well. Then I took a class to improve my skill. I learned more in the first week than I had in futzing around for a year. I've also run into others that took the course and then felt that they were the most expert of welders and nobody could teach them anything more... :rolleyes:

The other thing that the class really showed me was the difference that a good welding machine made over the little consumer models they sell at the big box stores. A good weldor can make any machine work, but a good machine, set up properly, can make a heck of a difference in getting a beginner off on the right foot without having to also learn how to overcome the inadequacies of the machine right off the bat.

We had a couple older guys in the class (older than me at the time) that came in thinking that they knew quite a bit. But they had to admit that they were doing a number of things that they were doing that they never really thought about the consequences of - just the way that they had "always done it" without really thinking about it.

For me, the final thing was that I got to really experiment in class. At the time there was no way that I could afford to have oxy-acetylene, stick, MIG, TIG, plasma, and everything else that I tried out in those months of the class. It really let me see what I could do with all those machines and plan my "wish list" accordingly.

The class through my local community college was $275, but that was years ago. I was actually a bit surprised when I looked up the Fall 2008 course catalog a moment ago and found that the basic course was only $400 and the MIG and TIG class was $350. For the access to the equipment, consumables, and instruction I'd still say that is a heck of a bargain.

rickairmedic

09-09-2008, 09:08 AM

I personally like Hobart for a hobby welder and you can pick up a 187 for 600 - 700 bucks . I have seen them for less refurbished . I personally am not a fan of the smaller lincoln machines hobart and miller are made by the same company Miller in my opinion is more of a profesional class welder if you can affordone great but for a hobby welder who is just playing in his shop a hobart is plenty of welder and will most likely last a lifetime for most of us who are not using it to make a living . I will also recomend craigslist as a good place to find a lightly used welder also if you have 220 available go ahead and get a 220 welder if not a 110 is a good starting point for a beginner just understand that if you get into it you are going to want to upgrade at some point .

Rick

rsanter

09-09-2008, 09:11 AM

while the MIG is easy enough that you could teach yourself (with the help of books and videos)
I think you would be ahead to to either get toghther with another member that is local (that is a good welder) or take a class

I have a lincolin and a century and both have been good machines. I am sure that the millers and hobarts are good as well.
someone said that the small MIGs use flux core, that is not exactly true. its not really a MIG unless it uses gas. the flux core (while similar to a mig) is really just a modified arc welder and I would not recomend them.

bob

PAToyota

09-09-2008, 09:12 AM

By the way which is better a Hobart,lincoln or Miller?It will be one of the three.

Hobart is Miller's consumer brand, so it is a bit of a step down from Miller and Lincoln. Between the other two, it is generally a matter of features and the "blue vs. red" debate. I've owned both red and blue through the years and haven't had a problem with either. Currently my machines are all blue, but a certain amount of that decision was based primarily on the deals that I got on them. If a red machine had been available in equal condition and for a lower or equal price I would have likely ended up with it.

kf4zht

09-09-2008, 09:18 AM

If you think you cannot teach yourself to weld you are full of shit. I know plenty of people including myself that did it. I have worked with certified welders who said that my welds were done properly, so I think I am good. I have never had a weld break that I didn't plan on breaking (those pot metal hold together long enough for one job welds). Yes the consumables cost something, I got steel for free. Ask your local steel shop about buying drops. It's all you need for practice and will often net you alot of different thicknesses and shapes to try on.

Oh, I would pick up a 220v if you can get the power. It will be more but you will not need to replace it as quickly. Over time I would also get a AC/DC stick and a OA torch for heating and cutting (and welding some things).

My method of learning was simple. First get a good idea what the different problems in welding look like. (Penetration, porosity, contamination, etc) A friend that knows what they are doing could whip you up a set of samples of this. Next weld two pieces together. I would recommend a lap weld or two pieces of square crossed. Look for the problems. Then beat it with a sledge till it breaks. Repeat till they don't break anymore. Then make a non-load bearing project or two. Build a welder cart, a table, or others. THere are plans on millers web site for a number of things. Be a perfectionist with the welds, you have time. Along the way you will learn fit and prep. Finally once you have the welds never breaking and looking good, learn the other positions. Vertical is harder and overhead is even worse.

Remember one thing. You will spend 95% of your time fitting, prepping, cleaning and planning. Welding is only the other 5%. Rusty or painted metal will not be a prefect weld, doesn't matter how good you are.

PAToyota

09-09-2008, 09:45 AM

If you think you cannot teach yourself to weld you are full of shit. I know plenty of people including myself that did it. I have worked with certified welders who said that my welds were done properly, so I think I am good.

[SNIP]

My method of learning was simple. First get a good idea what the different problems in welding look like. (Penetration, porosity, contamination, etc) A friend that knows what they are doing could whip you up a set of samples of this.

Whether it is a friend, co-worker, or class - having someone that knows what they are doing to look over your shoulder makes the difference. Attempting to learn totally by yourself without that outside input is going to make it more difficult for you to judge what is right.

wilbilt

09-09-2008, 09:48 AM

i've never welded before but sure would like to learn.. is there a good 110 volt welder out there to learn on... i don't plan on anything heavy, just brackets and something to just play with....

Probably not this one...

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k37/wilbilt/lincoln.jpg

But seriously, I also have a 110V wirefeed I bought at TSC. It is a terrible welder and I think it would frustrate a beginning welder to no end.

Better to find a 220V machine, IMHO.

a390st

09-09-2008, 09:53 AM

AC SUCKS!!!

If you are going to stick weld anything seriously, try to get an AC/DC welder. I used AC for years, but once I started welding DC, it was over. I finally made a friend bring his junk over to my shop rather than use his AC welder. DC and 220 are just indispensable for my welding uses. Miller makes some good AC/DC boxes. I've spent a lot of hours with the Thunderbolt XL 300/200, and it cost us something like $700. They might be $750-800 now, but for a compact unit, they will last you a long time. I think they make a 225/100 that is somewhat cheaper, but the 300/200 is worth twice the difference in price. There is just about nothing you can't do with that welder. You can probably find one for $500 or less used if you look around. You would be shocked to see how small and how large of things I have welded with that machine.

If you're just welding thin sheet metal, get a Mig machine, as it will be a lot faster and cheaper, but if you're going to end up fabricating or welding up chassis or something, the stick welder is the way to go. I grew up with sticks, and had to deal with so much odd stuff that I had to use a lot of exotic rods, but wire welders are just so good for lighter "normal" jobs.

Don't buy a super cheapie AC junker, or you will give up and hate welding. You will outgrow it before you get started. Welding is like anything else, you can start out right and spend once, or start out cheap and spend twice as much in the end.

JEdA

09-09-2008, 10:49 AM

I just bought one of these yesterday.

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00920569000P

Yes it is not a 220, and I know I will want to step up. I know it's not up to thick stuff, but I have some little stuff around the house I want to do with it and in general it is just something to play with. I would not have considered it except Sears has them for $239.99. You'll have to go into the store and see if they have one in stock and have them check the price. I went in with the model number and made them look it up. They didn't have them on the shelf.

If you want to spend the money everyone seemed to be pointing me towards a Hobart Handler 187 for the best bang for the buck general purpose welder.

Also I took a welding class at the local community college last year. It was around $300 and I easily used that in metal and consumables and would recommend it.

Vicegrip

09-09-2008, 11:25 AM

You guys are lucky in the CC arena. In my metro area the costs are nuts and no one offers just a stand alone basic welding class.

The question is what are you looking to make with the welder? A living or a BBQ? Living? go to school and keep going. BBQ from a 55 gal drum and some 1/8 angle iron? Get a 120v or a 220V welder and have fun. Don't weld anything that will kill you if it fails.

Used welders can be had cheap. I landed my MM251 for a fraction of the new price and it will do 1/2 in one pass. BTW ratings are most often set in one pass. Often times a single pass weld is not the best weld.

All I am trying to do is dispel the 120 V machines are useless myth. 1/4 with a 120 is not single pass. I would also not weld 1/2 to 1/2 in a single pass with my MM251 ether. It is fully rated for it but that would be poor methodology. Like most tools it is often the man not the machine.

PAToyota

09-09-2008, 12:15 PM

You guys are lucky in the CC arena. In my metro area the costs are nuts and no one offers just a stand alone basic welding class.

Check in with the college or vo-tech about your options. My local CC's fee for a three-credit class is $328. Typically they want you to be in the full program, but often the attitude is "money is money" and sometimes they have to cancel classes because not enough people sign up and they are more than willing to add you in as a student.

The question is what are you looking to make with the welder?

The one caveat is that typically people start off small and work their way up. Welding spring perches on a frame may not seem that different from welding handles on a BBQ, but the consequences are higher (as you say). Better to have an understanding from the start and do it correctly no matter what you are welding on.

Used welders can be had cheap.

Amen! Both of my current welders (Miller Syncrowave 250DX and MM250X) were purchased used as was my plasma (Hypertherm PM1100) for significantly less than new machines of lesser capabilities. Yet, I'd again recommend that the classes can help you there by giving you a greater familiarity with various welders so that you can make an informed decision about whether the used machine you are looking at is a diamond in the rough or whether it has been used, abused, and put out to pasture.

Buying a used welder as a first welder with no prior experience and you are not as likely to know what you are looking at or for when you go out to assess a machine. Having that experience under your belt of how to set up a machine and lay a good bead will give you a much better idea of how that machine handles.

gsport

09-09-2008, 12:52 PM

rickairmedic

09-09-2008, 01:00 PM

GS check with your local TSC you should be able to pick up a HH140 there reasonably priced and for hobby use will be plenty to start with.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay_10551_10001_36277_-1______14151|14220|14238|36277?listingPage=true&Special=false

This would make for a good 110 volt beginner machine that you could do alot with you can use it with flux core wire to start and as you progress and have more to spend go back and get a bottle of gas and regular wire . 75/25 is a good starter basic steel gas there are other moxes to do aluminum and stainless with but just the machine and a roll of fluxcore would get you started.

Rick

jhn9840

09-09-2008, 01:52 PM

Man!,I was going to buy me a 110 volt unit,now i must reconsider.I wouldn't mind spend a grand on a hobart 220 volt,because you'll have it for a long time.By the way which is better a Hobart,lincoln or Miller?It will be one of the three.

It's like the Chevy vs Ford argument, everyone has an opinion, I don't believe you can go wrong with any of the big three you mentioned, there are pros and cons to each different brand. My preference is Lincoln but that is because that brand is what my company used and I became comfortable with.

Like just about everything these days if you buy from the big box store you may save a couple of bucks but don't expect any after sales support. Your local welding shop can be a valuable resource to you as a beginner with advise and service to your equipment if you buy through them.

jhn9840
John

chad s

09-09-2008, 02:08 PM

learn to gas weld first and the rest will come easier.

JayL

09-09-2008, 02:15 PM

you mean to say like oxy acetelyne first?

chad s

09-09-2008, 03:00 PM

you mean to say like oxy acetelyne first?

yes, many welding instructors will tell you that. learning heat control and the process of adding filler rod with your other hand will build a lot more skill than using a "squirt gun" (mig).

a390st

09-09-2008, 03:26 PM

An oxy acetelyne torch and a coat hanger...the classic muffler shop standby. Seriously, a torch has a lot of uses, but if you are going to do anything with one, you need to get bigger tanks than the little playthings you see at a lot of the HF type stores. You can't get the volume of gas you need to do much without a full size tank. Again, it all depends on the scale of the work, and I am used to bigger work mostly. I did do some gunsmithing work years ago where we used the little tanks, so they do have a use. You also need to check your local ordinances to determine if it is alright to have bottled gasses in your residence/shop. Some places are restrictive.

Merkava_4

09-09-2008, 03:33 PM

Yeah I think the first month of welding class was all oxy-acetylene welding with filler rod. It's a good way to learn because you can see what's happening in slow motion.

chad s

09-09-2008, 04:50 PM

1320stang

09-09-2008, 05:22 PM

a390st

09-09-2008, 05:50 PM

I weld 1/4" steel with my henrob torch with little 20cc tanks all the time.

For what I was working on, 1/4" steel is what most people would consider foil.

We used to use a torch a lot just to get the parts hot before we started welding.

gsport

09-09-2008, 05:51 PM

man, my head is spinning with all the information i've read over the last two days...(that's a good thing) someone mentioned the great deal he got at sears, i went there today, and they said no such luck on that particular model.. stopped at another tool store that had clarke welders on sale.. model 130EN with cart, helmet, and guages for $429.00... how about that?? a good deal or not??
still looking

goodfellow

09-09-2008, 07:08 PM

I might as well give you my $.02, and get your head spinning even faster. Since you indicated that you're new to welding and have not had any experience to speak of, then you have to take everything that was said in this thread with "a grain of salt".

All the suggestions have merit, but you're unique and what works for one guy won't necessarily work for you.

It's no use asking whether a Clarke, Miller, Hobart, Lincoln, etc, welder is any good. Chances are they all have some merits. You need to get your hands on some of these machines and see which one will work best for you.

Go to a your local welding suppplier and get an education. If they're a good company, they'll let you burn a feet of wire on each machine, and then talk to you about welding various types of metal, and about consumables, safety, etc... Only then will you be able to figure out which machine fits you best.

No matter what anyone else says, without you actually "test driving" these machines, you're just rolling the dice --

Merkava_4

09-09-2008, 07:10 PM

stopped at another tool store that had clarke welders on sale.. model 130EN with cart, helmet, and guages for $429.00... how about that?? a good deal or not??

It would help tremendously if you would tell us which process you want to run and what type and thickness of metal you're going to be welding.

As far as brands go - Lincoln, Miller and Hobart are the only brands I would recommend.

Clark is a P.O.S. Taiwanese machine that will not run right and you'll never be able to find parts for.

If you were enrolled in a class at community college, you would know exactly which welder to get.

rickairmedic

09-09-2008, 07:41 PM

Technically Clark welders are made in iItaly not saying thats any better than Taiwan although they do make some pretty sweet cars in Italy but I would still stick to the big three you can get a hobart 140 at TSC in the same price range as that clark .

Rick

Merkava_4

09-09-2008, 08:02 PM

Technically Clark welders are made in Italy

I'll admit I was assuming they were made in Taiwan considering everything else with the Clark brand is made in Taiwan.

Vicegrip

09-09-2008, 09:40 PM

as vicegrip said..... "it'll be BBQ's" nothing that would hurt me... just something to play with... i'm retired and have alot of free time, maybe if i advance enough i'd move up to a more powerful welder but for now i am thinking of just a 110.. a class does sound like the way to go, i might just look into thatOK now you have set the framework. Caution! Long rambling windbag prattle to follow. I am stuck watching the kids and they are hogging the TV.
Do you have a garage or work place that has 220v power? If so a Hobart 187 or or similar will work well as it can do the thin metals and can burn a nice hole or 3 when you crank it up with little added overall cost. If no 220V get a 120v machine and still learn and weld just fine. My (unpopular) point is simply that a lot of hobby welding is using metals in the 3/16 or lighter range which is in the realm of the 120V machines.
You have time and want to learn something. Welding can be complex and the work critical but it can also be for fun and is not all 100% big man, big job on nuclear power plants or high pressure gas pipelines. Think something up, get some material, cut, grind, clamp and weld. "Look honey, I made you an end table for the lawn chair in the back yard and it only wobbles a little".

I recommend that you get a machine that is more than a cheap no name as it will likely come with better documentation along with working better and longer. Read the booklet and make some welds. Read the book again as after you use the machine some as the instructions will make a lot more sense then. Get the hang of it and make some stuff. Take your time and plan each bead. If it is not coming out right stop and check the settings and other basics. (is the gas on, is the ground clamp even near the work much less clamped to it? ;) ) Start right on the recommended settings but try running the feed rates and heat up and down to see, feel and hear what too much or little of something is like. The more you use the machine the better your work will get. You just might go back and discard or redo your early work once you get proficient. I have seen some good hobby weldors with some butt ugly but usable welding tables. The table was their first project.

Welding machine is but the start. Protective equipment, helmet, gloves, jacket. IMO at least get good welding gloves and a good auto darkhelmet but the jacket can be a heavy cotton work shirt to start. No man made fibers including the shoes! Sparks will go everywhere and anything the arc light can get to will get sunburnt with enough exposure. Tank of shielding gas, 80CF is normally the largest you can purchase without having to pay a monthly rent. At least one 4 inch angle grinder and the more the better. One with a grinding wheel and one with a wire wheel. Good eye protection and use it every time! Ear protection too. Allot of metal work is hard on ears. Something to cut metal with and a hack saw or saws-all will not make it. I use a hand held metal cutting bandsaw all the time for pipe tube angle flat stock. A chop saw can be cheap to purchase. Some clamps, a good hammer and a vice mounted on a table for bending, unbending and testing your welds by breaking them and, when you start to get it, trying to break them, files and an almost endless list of other things you could use at some point. A good well lit place to work and a fire extinguisher are a must in my book. You will start something on fire if you weld long enough. It might be you and you might not notice with the helmet on smoke all around and concentrating on you puddle. Filler wire for steel. Get some flux core too. It has its uses and will extend the range of a smaller welder as it runs hotter machine for machine. I recommend you save the stainless and aluminum for much later.

1. If, no make that when you feel heat coming through your glove, shed it quick as it will get a lot hotter in there before it starts to cool off!

2. You will have friends with busted things at your door at some point. To a non welder all welding required repairs will "Only take a half hour"

a390st

09-09-2008, 10:32 PM

So long as it isn't critical, AC might be alright, but it won't be as uniform or as consistent as DC. I still wouldn't spend $300-400 on a piece of crap AC welder when you could get a pretty good AC/DC for $500.

Now if you're talking a wire welder, that is a different story. As I said, wire is cheaper and faster than rods, so it could definitely be a better option. Also, do yourself a favor and get a Miller or Lincoln. For the price, you aren't going to find anything better.

jay50

09-10-2008, 12:25 AM

I don't know of a community college here in OKC that offers welding, they have Vo-Techs for that, except they won't allow you to take the class unless you plan on becoming certified and becoming a welder for a living, I know, I've asked. Also wanted to take a machinests class and I couldn't do that either. I said, not even if the class isn't full? They said no, you'd be wasting the instructor's time when they could be spending it on students that are intending to take up the career. Bullpucky I say.

Well, you just need to work around the crazy school system to get the training you desire. Sign up for the class. "Yes school counselor, I want to become a certified welder"
After taking said class, just become a college drop-out like about 99% of those new high school grads who are just taking up space in the class room...:beer::thumbup:

nissan_crawler

09-10-2008, 03:31 AM

Personally, I would stick to Lincoln/Miller/Hobart for a welder. There are other brands that are just fine, Century/Hypotherm/etc. come to mind, BUT not many people use them, so if you have trouble, you won't get much help. If you stick to the above three, and you have a welding/welder problem, you will have a much better shot at getting help.

Also, DO NOT WELD WITH FRAYED CLOTHING. Remember how fire likes to start with tinder? Your frayed pant legs ARE the tinder! You will (almost) never get good blue jeans to burn. Ratted out ones will smolder quite well.

Get a good helmet. You don't NEED an auto darkening helmet, but I would highly recommend getting one such as a Miller Elite, Jackson, etc. i love my Miller Elite.

Get a skull cap. Your forehead will thank you for the lack of welding burn, so will the back of your neck. It's a nice bonus when it deflects some red hot splatter, too.

Get long leather welding gloves, mine go almost to my elbow. Yes, they're clunky. Burn the shit out of your arm once, and you'll quickly realize how much you enjoy clunky.

If you don't have prescription safety glasses (or glasses at all), I HIGHLY recommend getting a pair of safety glasses that are comfortable to wear under the helmet.

I got a red hot splatter in my eye while over head welding on a crossmember that had gravel on top (unknown to me). The gravel exploded, blew the weld out, it hit the creeper, bounced up, hit the inside of the helmet, deflected off the rim of my safety glasses and still got in my f'ing eye. :mad:

You will swear, throw your helmet across the shop, and have the creeper wheels smoking from getting out from under the vehicle so fast. Your dad will wonder what in the hell is going on while you quickly unscrew the cover to the water jug, throw that on the floor, and hold the water jug to your face, dumping water all over you while you prance around like you have to pee. You will scream like a little girl when the eye doctor pulls it out after it's melted to your eye, and scare all the little kids waiting for eye exams, and have several mother's pissed off at you. It's an "eye-opening" experience, let me tell you.

Be careful of touching between the ground clamp and where you're welding, especially if it's a questionable contact. Sometimes you make a better ground. Humans aren't made to weld with their finger tips.

If you don't use the welder much (sounds like you won't) and you're in a humid area, either buy the very small spools of wire, or if you get a big one, build a simple metal box that holds a light bulb and put your wire in there when you're done to keep moisture out. I learned this after having a near new 12 lb spool rust to hell a month after I bought it. Now I have a 40 watt bulb in a metal circular saw case to hold my wire.

Shut the gas off at the bottle when you're done. 95% of gas valves on welders leak.

Get a "welding plier" for taking the tips and such off, they're very handy. I would also get a pencil drill set, handy for cleaning out welding tips, or torch tips. Silver colored pencils or soap stone are your friend, every welding supply store sells them.

Get a hand grinder, you can't weld without one.

Even if you go with MIG (with bottle), keep a small spool of flux core around. When the bottle runs out at 5:05 pm Sunday (assuming you have a Tractor supply around, otherwise, saturday) and you only have 10 minutes left to finish a project, you won't be nearly as pissed off. Throw the flux core in and go.

DON'T KINK THE TORCH. Don't step on it either. Be careful to keep it as straight as possible, with curves as gradual as possible. Liners don't like to be twisted into a figure 8.

I'm sure I missed a lot of tips, but others will chime in.

eschoendorff

09-10-2008, 04:58 AM

I was gonna quote ViseGrip and nissan_crawler, as I agree with much of what they have said. As the owner of HH140, I will attest to the fact that the 110vac welder, while not the most powerful, has done everything I have ever asked it to do.

Also, someone had mentioned that Hobart is Miller's consumer brand. Not sure where this came from, but Hobart has an industrial warranty...

For those of you shopping welders, I would buy a Hobart over a Lincoln. The Hobart (still made in USA) just seems to be a higher quality machine... less flimsy than most red welders.

Oh, and flux core can actually yield some good results. With proper technique, one can learn to keep the spatter to a minimum. And, with flux core, you get the benefit of added penetration.

PAToyota

09-10-2008, 08:28 AM

Personally, I would stick to Lincoln/Miller/Hobart for a welder. There are other brands that are just fine, Century/Hypotherm/etc. come to mind, BUT not many people use them, so if you have trouble, you won't get much help.

Just to clarify, Hypertherm makes plasma cutters - not welders - and have been doing it for forty years out of New Hampshire. My plasma is a Hypertherm and I'd go with them over about any other brand for a plasma cutter.

kf4zht

09-10-2008, 08:45 AM

To add to a few things nissan_crawler said.

Don't weld in sandals. It hurts.

When you are starting out you may see guys welding with short gloves, t-shirt, shorts, etc. I would recommend starting out wearing long pants, full welding gloves, long shirt, etc. Eventually you can predict where the slag will go and while it isn't the safest you can get away without all the gear, but when you are learning it is real distracting getting burned all the time.

Keep the gloves on after you are done. I know too many people who strip the gloves off and then accidently touch something that is still hot. Steel holds heat for a while, this includes the table, clamps, other parts of the piece.

Keep in mind to budget for other tools. You will need a way to cut, grind, clean, clamp. You can get away with an angle grinder for the cutting, grinding and cleaning, but it is not that great for all of them. At the least I would pick up an abrasive chop saw. The HF one works pretty good for the money. A bench grinder with a wheel and a wire brush is very handy but not necessary. Either way you need some way to cut the metal and a hacksaw will make you want to beat your head against the wall. A decent vise is also nice, and you will find that a welding table is a very handy first project.

definetly wear glasses under the hood. I have sparks come under or over it all the time. It is also a good idea when welding anywhere near or above you head to wear earplugs. A bit of slag in the ear makes for a very painful few days.

Keep extra wire on hand, always have some flux core and a small spool of what you usually use can save you when you run the big one out. You tend not to check the spool all the time when it is working right. One day you just run out.

There are alot of other tricks but many just come from experience.