Money Matters, But...(long but pithy)

[Paradise Ridge]

Howdy all,

I’ve been searching the archives extensively and lurking here for a while now, but my situation hasn’t come up yet that I can see. Need both heat and A/C and need some design help.

Specifics?
New shop/garage, 28x28, 10 foot sidewalls, 8/12 pitch with 12x28 room upstairs for pool, poker and cool refreshing beverages. 2x6 construction built to existing “Good Sense” and “Energy Star” recommendations. Plans call for blown in insulation, R-19 in the walls, R-30 between the two floors and R-30 between the rafters.

Main area (750 sq’) has 2 9x9 7.4R roll-ups, 1 insulated fiberglass service door and 2 4-0 x 5-0 low-E argon windows. Upstairs (350 sq’) has 2 2-0 x 4-0 low-E argon windows in the dormers and 2 5-0 x 6-8 fiberglass French doors, one on each end which will be opened probably 2 times a year. Upstairs also has ½ bath and small wet bar area.

Temps here in North Idaho (83501) range from 0 in January to 115 (no kidding!) in August. New 200A panel just for the shop, plus Nat Gas is 8 feet away. I plan on working (?) in the shop year around restoring antique tractors, a 65 Lincoln Continental, and lots of woodworking to restore our 1926 house.

I need to heat and cool this bugger! I’m too old to do it twice, HATE window air conditioners, and plan on keeping the shop 55 in the winter and 80 in the summer. I also would like to bump it from 55 to 70 in the winter without waiting ½ hour.

Get to the point? OK. Small town with only 2 HVAC contractors and they are related to each other by marriage. The 2 bids are within 50 bucks of each other (grin). Both recommend 70K 80% Goodman’s mounted it the attic and a 2½ ton Goodman 10.0 SEER A/C units out back on slabs. 6 Supply registers (4 down and 2 up) for the two floors w/ 1 return in each area. Each bid is roughly $6500.00.

Am I getting hosed? Are these systems overkill or adequate for my needs? I had a Reznor ceiling mounted heater in a different shop and loved it but I figure I need ducting for the A/C. I'll post a pic as soon as I figure out how!

ANY opinions or ideas? I’d prefer some advice before I take the plunge!

Scott

[OldCarGuy]

I suggest that you consider an Armstrong MagicPak through the wall ducted HVAC unit. You can get them configured with natural gas or propane heating with electric AC. From 36,000 to 60,000 BTU heating and !2,000 to 30,000 BTU cooling. They also make a heat pump version.

The installation is very simple and needs no chimney vents. Just install a sleeve in the wall, slide in the unit, and add some ducting. I have installed seven of them over the years in my homes and garages by myself and have been extremely happy with no breakdowns. The cost of one unit is about $1500.00.
Armstrong MagicPac (http://www.eccohtg.com/links/Product%20Listing/Heating%20Equipment/Armstrong%20Magic-Pak.pdf)

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c239/OldCarGuy_1955/12110002.jpg

[sboxs]

what does the Magic pak look like from the outside of the building

[CraigFL]

I like OldCarGuy's solution but becuse of energy costs, I still recommend heat pumps for saving $$$ as well as higher SEERs.

[OldCarGuy]

The 29x45” tan grille of the MagicPak can be flush to 3” past the exterior of the garage. Mine are installed with 3” extending giving me more room inside. I have never painted the grilles of units that I installed; but I’m sure that can be done.
.
My north 26x38 garage showing MagicPak grille
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c239/OldCarGuy_1955/12030039.jpg
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My South 26x38 garage
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c239/OldCarGuy_1955/12030040.jpg
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My 30x50 garage addition
http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c239/OldCarGuy_1955/12030027.jpg

CraigFL, MagicPak can also be configured with a heat pump or straight resistant electric heating rather than fossil fuel. The AC SEER rating is 10, not bad considering the overall cost of the unit. In the future I’m sure that Armstrong will improve that number, if they haven’t already.

The best part about the MagicPak is the simple and inexpensive installation. No need for a concrete slab, outdoor disconnect, flue pipes, or running freon lines to and from condenser. They are modular that simplifies repairs or replacements. Two of my seven units I installed nearly 20 years ago and all are still running with No need of any repairs.

Not like Florida, up north heat pumps may not be so practical. Especially if you like to be warm inside when the outside temperature is below zero. My new house was all electric and had a Traine electric heat pump. After I paid to have the gas main extended 1/4 mile to my propery, I converted the resistance heading section to a natural gas leaving the heat pump section intact. The gas isn’t fired up until the outside temperature goes below 32 degrees. Giving me the best of both worlds.

[Paradise Ridge]

OCG,

Thanks for the info!

I went over to their website and printed out some specs this AM and found a dealer in Spokane. He is supposed to get back to me tomorrow.

Can these units be mounted as a downdraft model? Wall space is tight, but if I can mount it up by the ceiling it might just work.

Thanks again for the lead!

Scott

[krooser]

I like OldCarGuy's solution but becuse of energy costs, I still recommend heat pumps for saving $$$ as well as higher SEERs.
The heat pumps won't work in the cold temps UNLESS you go with groundwater units...those are slick...

Since this is a fresh build, I'd go with in-floor radiant on both floors....cozy even at sub-zero temps. My radiant tube heater in my shop works great...I can't imagine using a forced-air system anymore.

[OldCarGuy]

OCG,

Thanks for the info!

I went over to their website and printed out some specs this AM and found a dealer in Spokane. He is supposed to get back to me tomorrow.

Can these units be mounted as a downdraft model? Wall space is tight, but if I can mount it up by the ceiling it might just work.

Thanks again for the lead!

Scott

I would say that the Magicpak is updraft only. However I’d ask the dealer if they make an downdraft model or can be converted. There is no reason why they couldn’t be placed toward the ceiling, as long as there is room for a transition piece and ductwork between the top of the unit and the ceiling. After looking at my installs, I wished that I had mounted mine 8’ off the floor. Sometimes you do things out of habit and never dawned on me to install them higher. Now I could kick myself! The only reason that they should be mounted lower is for serviceability. But as few times as they need attention, I could easily work off a ladder or my scissors truck.

[CraigFL]

The heat pumps won't work in the cold temps UNLESS you go with groundwater units...those are slick.....


Because of the increased effiency of the modern units, you can still get more heat out than electricity you're putting in at temperatures below zero. I had a heat pump( est about 9 SEER) in Minnesota in 1986 that was efficient down to about zero degrees. With SEERs up to 16 the low temp break even point will be much lower.

Of course using the groundwater type will get you much better efficiency over any outside temperature.

[OldCarGuy]

The heat pumps won't work in the cold temps UNLESS you go with groundwater units...those are slick...

I know someone that paid big bucks to have a geothermal heat pump system installed in his new 6,000 square foot house three years ago. After two years of hearing his wife complain that the house was so cold. He had it all ripped out and installed a natural gas heating with an electric AC system. He said it was no fun saving money if you have to freeze your a$$ off and listen to his wife bitch!

When the electric company discontinued their all-electric rates in this area, along with the higher initial costs or heat pumps, I would question if there are any savings.

[CraigFL]

The number one problem some people have with heat pumps is that it is usually is a forced air system and the temperature of the air from the heat exchanger is only 90 degrees or so. Consequently, the system (air) has to run longer because it's at a lower temperature than gas or straight electric heat. Breezes of this cooler air are sometimes felt as little or no heat even though they are warmer than the ambient temperature. The temperature of the gas/electric heat air is typically over 110 degrees. The other problem is that the room temperature doesn't recover as quickly from an influx of cold air or a request for a higher temperature because the air isn't as hot.

Here in NW Florida, a KWH of gas is about the same cost as a KWH of electricity. With a COP(Coefficient Of Performance) approaching 3, this means you would only need 1/3 the cost of electricity that it would cost for gas(or straight electic heat for that matter) all attainable if you use a ground water system. Realistically, half that for the air type. A few good heating seasons would pay for it...