Backfeeding panel with generator power

[trackwelder]

With the recent ice storm in the northeast I have begun to think of how to power my house incase the power goes out. I am not an electrician by any means but can change an outlet or wire a plug. My neighbor states that I can trip the main breaker off any run a lead to my dryer plug to backfeed the panel and run my furnace and fridge. Just looking for opinions or experiences with doing this. I plan on having a new panel installed this spring and will add a transfer switch also.

[Junkman]

If you back feed the power from a generator without the proper disconnect switch, you are doing an illegal act. I know that in CT, if Connecticut Light and Power find you back feeding without the proper disconnect switch, they will cut the lines to your home. They will not reconnect them until you properly upgrade the service. They are very forceful about this, since some linemen have been injured/killed as a result.

[IHI]

Trackwelder, that is how i do my house, luckily only had to do it a few times though. JUST BE SURE YOU SHUT OFF THE MAIN BREAKER!!!!!!!! This cannot be stressed enough, it is a very concious thing that has to take place or you could possibly kill a man trying to fix the situation!!!!!

That being said, i just have a 10/3 wire drop i put a twist lock end on to plug into the 220V side of my generator, and i just feed that wire through my dryer vent from outside the house and disconnect a elbow so i can pull it through and plug the other end i put a dry outlet compatible plug on into the dryer outlet. I only have a 1200swft house but can power everything off the 6500W generator like nothing special. I dont let the wife to laundry obviously, but other than that, the entire house is fully functional heating or cooling wise.

but shutting off the main breaker is a priority, guy have been killed from this, and yes, if your going to upgrade service figure in a transfer switch and be done. When we get ready to add onto the house i have to move the service to the side of the house so that is when i'll have my sparkey put the transfer switch in.

[trackwelder]

I definitely don't want to hurt anybody or risk losing my connection to the grid. Its just a pain running several cords. My uncle is an electrician maybe I can get him to rig something up.

[Junkman]

Northern Tool has a 200 amp disconnect switch that is reasonably priced. I have the same switch in my home, but I got it from the electrical supply house. They had a pallet of them and were selling them for $100 each. I only wish that I had bought more of them at the time.. This was about 4 years ago..

[trackwelder]

Thanks Junk now I just have to research that tommorow. Northern has a great selection to chose from, and I like the 30 amp waterproof twistlock outlet.

[Junkman]

For inexpensive twist lock plugs and recepticles, watch ebay. I have found great deals on name brands such as Hubbel and Bryant. A lot of what I have is going to be converted to twist lock plugs. That way, people will stop asking to borrow my battery charger.... :lol_hitti

[trackwelder]

For inexpensive twist lock plugs and recepticles, watch ebay. I have found great deals on name brands such as Hubbel and Bryant. A lot of what I have is going to be converted to twist lock plugs. That way, people will stop asking to borrow my battery charger.... :lol_hitti

Thats a good thought, I might run with that.

[larry4406]

There was a thread on here recently, where a bolt on metal plate is applied to the service panel - it locks out the main breaker while the generator back feed breaker is enabled - prevents having both breakers engaged at the same time. This interlock/cover modification turned your existing service into a transfer switch and you did not have to install a new panel and move your circuits over - very clever.

I have a 50A 220V exterior mounted weatherproof outlet and a 50A matching breaker in my service panel. I took two 50A 4 wire range cords and bonded them together - so yes I have a cord with 2 males on it. When the power goes out, kill the main and all the breakers, connect the generator to the outlet with my cord, start the generator. Then I engage its 50A breaker, and then one by one bring on critical circuits like fridge, lights, etc. Works sweet.

[Torque1st]

This plate?

http://imgcash1.imageshack.us/Himg206/scaled.php?server=206&filename=lockoutsqdwm5.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=480

There was a big thread a little while ago on this very subject. The subject probably comes up every time there is an ice storm or some other disaster anywhere in the country.

[Tscott]

Not to beat a dead horse. Oh who am I kidding :deadhorse beat away.

Sorry, but this is a very important thing to let people know. As stated above if you do not cut the main breaker you will energize the transformer and a large portion of the high voltage grid. So it is not just isolated to your transformer, and could easily kill a careless lineman miles away.

I think you have already made the decision to do it the right way. I think this is best as it is very easy to forget to do something as small as flip the main.

Tom

[Charles (in GA)]

http://www.interlockkit.com/

http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm

Charles

[dipper]

So it is not just isolated to your transformer, and could easily kill a careless lineman miles away.

The careless one would be the homeowner who didnt properly follow NEC codes when "rigging" up his generator cause he's cold or doesn't want his food to spoil....not the linemen who is out doing his job and is unaware.

Bottom line.....get a transfer switch!!!

[sberry]

I go for the eimple transfer switch for most normal homes, put the critical and a convenience circuit on it, helps avoid overloading the genset also. If not that have a set of plug and cord setups ready to go, change the furnace to a cord and plug deal.
I like the transfer panels vs the breaker lockout, helps limit the load.

[walrus]

The main breaker does not interrupt the grounded conductor(neutral). Back feeding a panel can kill an unsuspecting lineman. If you can afford a generator to run your home in an outage, you can afford a transfer switch. Have it installed by a compentent electrician

[trackwelder]

http://www.interlockkit.com/

http://www.generlink.com/about_generlink.cfm

Charles

Any thoughts on the item in the generlink link. I am going to call the power company and see if thats approved by them.

[LoneGunman]

Thank you Walrus, one thing though, breaker interlock devices like the ones someone posted a pic of are a UL listed and acceptable means to feed a panel from a generator, they obviously do not break the grounded conductor either.

For the people who are so sure their main is off and feel good about it, you must not have run into any power crews doing repair work, they will not check to see if your main is off, they will see your illegal backfeed and either cut your drop away or cut your drop away and leave and be sure to tell your neighbors why they are leaving. This is not a rumor, I have seen it first hand here in Florida after the hurricanes a few years ago. I also witnessed two people arrested who thought they were not going to allow anyone on their property to cut their drop. I cut three or four myself.

Once the drop is cut, power is restored EXCEPT for the person with the cut drop, I heard of one guy who was out for two weeks AFTER the power was restored.

[LoneGunman]

Any thoughts on the item in the generlink link. I am going to call the power company and see if thats approved by them.

I've probably installed over 100 of them, I like them, they are a lot less money to install and you have the flexibility to pick and choose what you want on which you canot do with a transfer switch unless you spend big money.

My only gripe is they are so outrageously overpriced, it's a piece of sheet metal and a drill bit, I wish I thought of it. Panel manufacturers are making their own now and they are a lot less money than the interlockkit.com ones

[Red Green]

I have a couple questions how would having the Ground hooked up hurt someone? How would the power company know if you were backfeeding without a switch unless they came into your house?

[LoneGunman]

I have a couple questions how would having the Ground hooked up hurt someone? How would the power company know if you were backfeeding without a switch unless they came into your house?

Nobody mentioned the "ground" the "grounded conductor" was mentioned, the "grounded conductor" is the correct trade term used for "neutral". In many places in Florida the dryer is in the garage, and the garages were usually open, easy to see the generator feeding the dryer receptacle.

In the cases where they had a backfeed they went door to door until they found it or just told whomever was outside gathered around their trucks looking for info, "we'll be back when there is no longer a generator backfeeding our lines" , the residents took care of the problem.

[Red Green]

Ok if the Main breaker doesn't turn off the neutral or "grounded conductor" what about the master disconnect switch that has the 3 main wires from the meter does that cut the neutral or just the hot also?

[larry4406]

Help me out here. The UL listed and approved metal interlock plate prevents the back feed breaker and the main from being enabled at the same time - we all agree on this. When the main is off, Line 1 and Line 2 from the grid to the house are severed - the house ground still goes to the ground rod, and the common from the grid is still connected. Then, when the back feed breaker is enabled, Line 1 and Line 2 from the generator is then routed to the buss bars in the panel, while (in my case), the generator plug's ground and common are always directly connected to the neutral and ground bars in the panel.

Please explain the difference between this and a transfer switch - I don't see any. To my knowledge, and I may be wrong, the transfer switch is only realigning Line 1 and Line 2 from the grid to the generator, just like what is achieved by having the main closed and the generator breaker enabled. In my view, the metal plate and the transfer switch simply provide an interlock to protect people from themselves and ensure that its one or the other (never both), and are the proper Code way of doing things.

I don't understand the comments about how with the main closed one could back feed the grid. When the power company jerks the meter, you loose Line 1 and Line 2, nothing else. The same as the main being closed.

[Muttly]

That being said, i just have a 10/3 wire drop i put a twist lock end on to plug into the 220V side of my generator, and i just feed that wire through my dryer vent from outside the house and disconnect a elbow so i can pull it through and plug the other end i put a dry outlet compatible plug on into the dryer outlet. I only have a 1200swft house but can power everything off the 6500W generator like nothing special. I dont let the wife to laundry obviously, but other than that, the entire house is fully functional heating or cooling wise.



Posting this on the internet is dangerous, you don't know who will read and use this information in the future.

I don't know what's worse, the energized male plug end or the 10-3 wire off of a 6500 watt generator.

If you are doing this on your own home to get by in an emergency that is one thing, but posting it up in a public forum for who knows to read is bad.

I think of some poor soul reading this and handing their kid the end of the cord to plug in as they fire up the generator.

Or someone tripping over a cord strung thru the house and unplugging a live male cord end that is carrying 220 volts at 30 amps next to the metal washer and dryer.

[MAD]

With a properly wired transfer switch, the human error factor is mostly eliminated. Just because you may know what you are doing, does not mean you should be trusted to break the grid connection before the generator connection is made.

With a Transfer switch everything should theoretically be tested to be foolproof before the permit is signed by the inspector.

[trainer]

Posting this on the internet is dangerous, you don't know who will read and use this information in the future.

I don't know what's worse, the energized male plug end or the 10-3 wire off of a 6500 watt generator.

If you are doing this on your own home to get by in an emergency that is one thing, but posting it up in a public forum for who knows to read is bad.

I think of some poor soul reading this and handing their kid the end of the cord to plug in as they fire up the generator.

Or someone tripping over a cord strung thru the house and unplugging a live male cord end that is carrying 220 volts at 30 amps next to the metal washer and dryer.

The other thing is if you happen to not be at home during an outage and your wife or neighbor or daughter's boyfriend decides to start the generator and doesn't know that the main needs to be switched off.

And good luck in court if a lineman in your neighborhood gets electrocuted, even if it isn't your fault!

[Tscott]

The careless one would be the homeowner who didn't properly follow NEC codes when "rigging" up his generator cause he's cold or doesn't want his food to spoil....not the linemen who is out doing his job and is unaware.

Yes and no. Our linemen have the motto, if it's not grounded, it's not dead. So if they don't ground it and get killed, then yes they were careless. Yes the homeowner is at fault, but the lineman is the one trained to work the power system and they are ultimately responsible for their own safety.

Remember, gloves and grounds are a lineman's best friend.

Tom

[RPH]

Our rule is : It's live until YOU prove otherwise.

[Torque1st]

Larry- Terminology:
When a switch or breaker is CLOSED the conductor path is continuous, -connected, power can flow.

When a switch or breaker is OPEN the conductor path is broken, -NO connection, NO power will flow.

[MAD]

Larry- Terminology:
When a switch or breaker is CLOSED the conductor path is continuous, -connected, power can flow.

When a switch or breaker is OPEN the conductor path is broken, -NO connection, NO power will flow.

I did not notice that bit of confusion when I quickly responded to that post.

To clarify even more:

Open = off

Closed = on

[walrus]

Thank you Walrus, one thing though, breaker interlock devices like the ones someone posted a pic of are a UL listed and acceptable means to feed a panel from a generator, they obviously do not break the grounded conductor either. .

Don't know anything about those interlocks. Never seen one nor would I install one. Transfer switches are the only safe way that I know to use a generator( I guess you could cord and plug everything but...).

[walrus]

Ok if the Main breaker doesn't turn off the neutral or "grounded conductor" what about the master disconnect switch that has the 3 main wires from the meter does that cut the neutral or just the hot also?

Depends on the disconnect but I would assume just the hots. They do make disconnects that will switch the neutral, I doubt they would be used in a residential situation?

[Tscott]

Our rule is : It's live until YOU prove otherwise.

We ground everything we work on. The guys still wear gloves and treat it as hot even when grounded. There is no flashing light or siren before the juice begins to flow, so it is impossible to tell whether it will stay dead.

Tom

[larry4406]

Torgue1st and Mad - Understand on the closed (enabled) vs on open circuit.

All the posts up to then were saying how this was back feeding the grid. Not possible with the main breaker open. So, if one has his wits together, open the main breaker (sever the grid), close the back feed breaker (make the circuit) and let there be light.

[trackwelder]

I've probably installed over 100 of them, I like them, they are a lot less money to install and you have the flexibility to pick and choose what you want on which you canot do with a transfer switch unless you spend big money.

My only gripe is they are so outrageously overpriced, it's a piece of sheet metal and a drill bit, I wish I thought of it. Panel manufacturers are making their own now and they are a lot less money than the interlockkit.com ones

I was wondering about the item that the power company would hook up on the meter. It is in the generlink link and was wondering about. The item mounts outside behind the meter and is not the sheetmetal lockout device.

[tdkkart]

All the posts up to then were saying how this was back feeding the grid.

Not possible with the main breaker open.


So, if one has his wits together, open the main breaker (sever the grid), close the back feed breaker (make the circuit) and let there be light.


Yes, it is possible to feed power to the grid with the main breaker open. All it takes is two wires swapped in your cord and you're feeding 110V onto the grid through the neutral wire, which is NOT disconnected by the main breaker.
Even if you have the interlock plate shown earlier in this thread it does not guarantee a complete disconnect.

Now, theoretically, the neutral should be bonded to ground in the main panel, which is then connected to a ground rod, so it SHOULD trip the breaker on your generator IF the generator is also properly grounded.

BUT, there's alot of IF and ANDS and SHOULDS in this situation, they are all ASSuming a proper installation was done on your original panel.

Make damn sure your's right before you fire up the generator.

[Mr_fixit]

here's the same one...

[larry4406]

Yes, it is possible to feed power to the grid with the main breaker open. All it takes is two wires swapped in your cord and you're feeding 110V onto the grid through the neutral wire, which is NOT disconnected by the main breaker.

This is an installation error. With all wired correctly and no wires swapped, open the main & close the back feed breaker - this is exactly what is achieved with a transfer switch. If someone is not competent enough to wire and keep the legs distinguished and terminated properly, they have no business doing this and need to hire qualified help.

[GSSFC]

This is an installation error. With all wired correctly and no wires swapped, open the main & close the back feed breaker - this is exactly what is achieved with a transfer switch. If someone is not competent enough to wire and keep the legs distinguished and terminated properly, they have no business doing this and need to hire qualified help.

A lot of people do things they aren't qualified to do and often times make mistakes in doing so. The important lesson here would be how to do it correctly, there is more at stake here than your house not "working" right.

Tim

[larry4406]

I agree on doing things correctly. The metal adapter interlock plate or transfer switch only prevent the main and backfeed breaker from both being closed at the same time. Beyond that, its just wiring.

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Anyone on here have the Generlink installed????
What does it cost, in round number??
This is perfect for my situation; House 200 Amp service and garage power pulled from meter location has small panel that runs my well pump. (is not a sub panel of the house)

I have been trying to figure out how to put in a transfer switch and power my well pump. With this I don't have to, just plug in the generator at the meter.

[tdkkart]

Google Generlink, I see a couple utility companies are quoting $625 installed, probably not too bad considering what a regular transfer switch setup will cost you installed.

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Well, very prompt reply from Generlink.com.

MA23-N Generlink, Non-Surge 30amp $650
MA23-S Generlink, Surge 30 amp $725
MA24-N Generlink, Non-Surge 40amp $750
MA24-S Generlink, Surge 40amp $825


The other option is putting in a combination Meter Socket - Transfer switch. This was from our utilities website.
MFG: Durham
Catalog#: SB204DT100B

http://www.durhamcompany.com/Catalog/Durham%20Catalog/pg_0047.htm

:shocking:

[Rickochet]

Well, very prompt reply from Generlink.com.

MA23-N Generlink, Non-Surge 30amp $650
MA23-S Generlink, Surge 30 amp $725
MA24-N Generlink, Non-Surge 40amp $750
MA24-S Generlink, Surge 40amp $825


The other option is putting in a combination Meter Socket - Transfer switch. This was from our utilities website.
MFG: Durham
Catalog#: SB204DT100B

http://www.durhamcompany.com/Catalog/Durham%20Catalog/pg_0047.htm

:shocking:

Do you know what the price ranges are for the combos you shared from Durham?

[Rickochet]

The following print is a very basic illustration of how a transfer switch operates. Use carefully thought out plans when trying to connect a generator. It is not just a line mechanic (we have women who perform line work too) who is at risk when a generator is installed improperly.

Take the time to do it right and you will never be sorry. My motto for many things such as this is:

"It takes less time and money to do the job right than it does to explain why it wasn't."

----especially if you are going to do battle with the legal system......:shocking:




http://www.smps.us/connecting_generator.GIF

[trainer]

So the simplest transfer switch would be a DPDT switch installed between the meter and main breaker?

[tdkkart]

So the simplest transfer switch would be a DPDT switch installed between the meter and main breaker?


This is how my transfer switch is set up.

Power comes in through the meter to the main panel.

Main panel has a 50 amp breaker feeding a subpanel containing essential circuits. Well pump, furnace, frig outlet, family room outlets and few light bulbs.

Leads from the 50 amp breaker go through a DPDT knife switch on their way to the subpanel.

Knife switch gets input from either the 50amp breaker or the generator, output goes to the subpanel.

When the power goes out, plug the generator cord into the twistlock receptacle on the back of the house, fire the generator, pull the knife switch to feed power from the generator to the sub panel.

Simple, effective, and safe.

[Torque1st]

So the simplest transfer switch would be a DPDT switch installed between the meter and main breaker?
The simplest transfer switch would be the breaker interlock mechanism. It takes the least wiring, fewest connections for the fewest trouble spots, and if you look at the function closely it is just a DPDT switch. The cost factor makes it the best option besides it is simplest, effective, and safe.

[Mr_fixit]

The simplest transfer switch would be the breaker interlock mechanism. It takes the least wiring, fewest connections for the fewest trouble spots, and if you look at the function closely it is just a DPDT switch. The cost factor makes it the best option besides it is simplest, effective, and safe.

Here... Here... What I could never understand is that everyone has such a STRONG opinion on what TO do and what NOT to do, but almost no one knows about this inexpensive, simple option. The part itself sells retail for about $70. And a generator inlet might cost you $50.00

The only drawback is that Square D make them for Homeline and Square D QO 100 amp or 200 amp panels. So if you have an older panel or a different brand panel, you HAVE to spend ALOT more money to do things right.

[precisionsc54]

Just get an automatice transfer switch unless you want to risk anothers life.

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Do you know what the price ranges are for the combos you shared from Durham?

I sent in a request to my Electrical supplier and have not got a response yet. I did a quick look online and did not find a supplier.

When I get a response with some $'s I'll post it.

[mmg440]

Just get an automatice transfer switch unless you want to risk anothers life.

:headscrat
Automatic or manual, The transfer switch if the part needed. I don't think a manual positive interlock transfer method is any more or less dangerous the a automatic system. Both prevent generator current from entering the line to the grid. I have a manual generator that won't automatically come on line so the automatic switch would be money spent for equipment unneeded in my situation. However a manual transfer switch or box interlock system would be a wise investment

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

FYI: I finally recieved an email back on the price of the socket transfer switch we discussesd above.

That socket transfer switch I posted on above runs $370 from my electrical supplier. I would have to have it installed.

[tdkkart]

FYI: I finally recieved an email back on the price of the socket transfer switch we discussesd above.
That socket transfer switch I posted on above runs $370 from my electrical supplier. I would have to have it installed.


That's dirt cheap considering that it's a plug-in solution. Requires no additional equipment, no alterations to your present system. Clean and simple, automatic operation.

[NWOhioChevyGuy]

Yep,

Simple!
Utility Approved!
Safe!
Cheap!!!!!!!

All the right words.