Welder in townhouse garage *help*

[STIBuilder]

New member here, I'm looking to get a small welder, Miller140 but I wanted to see if it was going to be possible with the current Panel, looks like ill have to have a sub box installed and split off some other breaker? Anyone shed any light on how to do this without replacing the panel?

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/tokennegro/DSC_2738-set-1.jpg

[bmwpower]

I believe that panel is full. What is the panel rated for?
Is that handwritten "Lighting Garage" actually lighting in the garage, plus outlets or something else?

Doesn't a MM140 run off of 120v?

[JohnK007]

You're full amigo. Not sure I understand why the "Washer" has a dedicated 20 amp circuit going to it. IF your laundry is close to the garage, you might be able to use that circuit for your welder. Just remember not to run both at the same time.

[Mr_fixit]

Range, you don't need no stinkin range.!

Where's the main panel?

[Charles (in GA)]

That is a Siemens panel. They make a breaker that will replace EDITone of those double pole 240v breakers with one unit that has four of the little half width breakers riveted together, the handles on the center two are tied together, and the handles on the outer two are tied together with a horseshoe shaped clip. Its two - double pole - 240v breakers in the size of one normal one. They are called "Quadplex plug in circuit breakers".

This will gain the space you need, Pull two of the existing 240V double pole breakers and replace with one of the quadplex, then install a standard double pole breaker of the size you need for the welder.

They are the bottom item on page 6 of the following PDF file.

http://www.sea.siemens.com/resident/docs/RPBR-S0007-1003.pdf

Below is a list of the ratings of the Inboard/Outboard breakers and the part numbers.

Inside two pole/outside two pole/part number
15A/15A/Q21515CT2
15A/20A/Q22020CT2 ***I think this is a misprint in the catalog, should be Q21520CT2***
20A/30A/Q22030CT2
20A/40A/Q22040CT2
30A/30A/Q23030CT2
30A/40A/Q23040CT2
40A/40A/Q24040CT2
50A/30A/Q25030CT2

Charles

Edit, didn't realize that the welder you intend to use is a 120V. In that case, on the same page of the catalog is a section of Triplex breakers. Its one 240v double pole handle tied in the middle, and two 120V single pole breakers in each outer position. From these two you can come up with whatever combo you want to replace what you have.

Look on that placard on the inside of the door, it will list all of the approved breakers for that panel.

[tfi racing]

Lots of room left.Just replace some of those large breakers with tandems like in space "14".

[Charles (in GA)]

Not sure I understand why the "Washer" has a dedicated 20 amp circuit going to it.

Required by code, thats why.

[STIBuilder]

Wow Charles, thanks for the reply i wasn't sure what i was dealing with, as you can tell i wont be doing the work, but wanted to have an idea when i did hire a electrician to do this. The welder i want to use is only 120v but now you have me thinking, maybe i should go up to a 220v unit.

[JohnK007]

Thanks for the heads up Charles. My house service was installed in 1993 and in looking at my panel I have no dedicated circuit for the washing machine. Things have obviously changed in 15 years.

[Charles (in GA)]

210.52(F) requires "at least one outlet for the laundry area" But I seem to recall some other provision that leads you to a dedicated circuit for this. In any case, it is certainly good practice.

Charles

[Aceman]

210.52(F) requires "at least one outlet for the laundry area" But I seem to recall some other provision that leads you to a dedicated circuit for this.

You're looking for 210.11(C)2.

[Charles (in GA)]

You're looking for 210.11(C)2.

Yes, thank you, I knew I had seen it, but had just a couple of minutes this morning and could not find it.

One 20 amp laundry circuit with no other outlets on the circuit.

Charles

[tfi racing]

26-702(12)(a) and 26-704(7) for the Canadians

[Kevin54]

Am I wrong in thinking that panel looks more like a subpanel than a main panel? Or is that the way they do townhouses. The reason I ask, if that is the main, then where are the main breakers? Anything I have seen in the way of a main, has the main breakers to kill the whole panel. At least that is all I have ever seen around our area.

[mmg440]

I would guess the panel has a main? just not in view on this photo.

[STIBuilder]

I would guess the panel has a main? just not in view on this photo.

No main to be found, maybe outside

[tfi racing]

Its probably fed from a CDP and meter bank.The main will be beside the meter, quite common in multi family construction.

[mmg440]

So basically what STI has for his main panel is a sub panel. It really seems like a short cut on the builders part? It would seem to make code for the building I am guessing because it's all in or on the same building and is not a outbuilding.

[Charles (in GA)]

So basically what STI has for his main panel is a sub panel. It really seems like a short cut on the builders part? It would seem to make code for the building I am guessing because it's all in or on the same building and is not a outbuilding.

What he has is a "main-lug panelboard". Indeed, if you want to get picky, the service disconnect is probably outside, with a gang of meters and disconnects. That, in theory makes the panelboard you are looking at, a "sub"panel, but it is the only panel he has.

This is common in the south, almost everyone requires the service disconnect outside nowdays, as a fire protection measure, as the fire department can pull the service disconnect and kill the power if need be. To save money, many houses I have seen have a main-lug board, with no main breaker in the panel.

This is what I did in my shop. You can stand in the doorway and reach the disconnect on the outside and the panel on the inside at the same time, so I did not bother to get a main breaker panel, adding its cost and bulk of the main breaker didn't make sense.

Charles

[Jbullfrog]

You may want to check your lease and or insurance coverage before getting the welder. I found out that you aren't supposed to have a welder in an attached garage where I live. I'm not sure if it is a fire code, or the bank's insurance.