I had a outdoor GFI outlet completly burn up.

[davidcalhoun]

For a few weeks we had a 2 rooms in our partially finished walkout basement that would not funtion because the circuit breaker would kick. House was built in 2004.

So yesterday I decieded to look at all the outlets to see what the problem was. After getting through one whole room, I decided to just walk outside.

It was there that I noticed that one of my plastic GFI covers was all black. Sure enough this was the problem. The back half of the GFI was completly buned up. All charrded and melted through to the inside of it.

Have you guys seen anything like this? This outdoor GFI was under a coverd porch and was in a weatherproof box that code called for in 2004. There was not anything that was plugged into it.

I am glad that the circuit breaker did it's job because the GFI sure did not. Could have been bad. I don't know if the electrican hooked it up wrong or if this particular GFI was faulty from the manufacturer.

[nissan_crawler]

GFI's suck. don't go cheap on them, I go to an electrical wholesaler for them, and ONLY use them where required. I hate the god damn things.

[LoneGunman]

Ummmmm how did the GFCI not do it's job? It cuts power to whatever is plugged in not power to itself.

It's highly unlikely your electrician hooked it up wrong and if he did it would not burn like that, you would just not have GFCI protection. I probably change out a cooked GFCI every other month, it happens.

Nissan, I am an electrician and you will find no GFCI's in my house except for the bathrooms. They are the cause of so many BS service calls, now AFCI's are required also and they are 4 times as bad as GFCI's are in terms of nuisance tripping.

[Aceman]

I don't know if the electrican hooked it up wrong or if this particular GFI was faulty from the manufacturer.

If nothing has been plugged into it, I would assume it was a faulty GFCI.

GFI's suck. don't go cheap on them, I go to an electrical wholesaler for them, and ONLY use them where required. I hate the god damn things.

What's wrong with GFCI's? You don't like the price?

I probably change out a cooked GFCI every other month, it happens.

They are the cause of so many BS service calls

If you changed "GFCI" out in your quote above to "stab in the back receptacles" that would be the norm around here. GFCI's, not so much. Except for the occasional power spike or faulty appliance in the garage that trips the GFCI hidden behind a pile of crap stacked against the wall, I usually don't have much trouble with them.

[davidcalhoun]

LoneGunman,

Ummmm, I am no electrician, that is why I was shocked (pun intened) to see this for the first time. Thanks for explaining that the GFI's "test" and "reset" did not apply in is case.

Is it really that common for this things to burn up like this? This was so bad that I really am surprised that we did not have a fire.

Another question. When you have a short like this and it causes this much damage before the circuit breaker kicks, could this affect/compromised the inside wiring in some way (the wiring that is on the same circuit)? My wife tells me she had smelled what seemed like something burning inside for a couple of weeks.

Thanks,

[nissan_crawler]

What's wrong with GFCI's? You don't like the price?


Failure rate, lost food due to one (fridge). That got ditched. Even the supposedly good ones don't last like they should. GFI in the garage trip when you run a block heater, saw, etc. Everything got tossed except the ones required in the kitchen and bathroom by code.

The freaking things drive me nuts.

I've replaced them in THREE houses, all built by different people, all three lost everything in their deep freeze in the garage. Why? Jackass electricians wiring the freaking downstairs bathroom GFI into the damn garage. Who in the hell thought this was a genius idea, I don't know. In all cases, the GFI crapped and killed the freezer. It took forever on the first one to figure out how in the hell it had lost power, until the guys wife mentioned her hair dryer not working down there a week before.

All in all, I think they just flat suck, and the PITA associated with them is not worth the incredibly rare benefit one might provide.

If you trip one a few times, you might as well chuck it and put a new one in, it's never the same after.

[Kevin54]

Another question. When you have a short like this and it causes this much damage before the circuit breaker kicks, could this affect/compromised the inside wiring in some way (the wiring that is on the same circuit)? My wife tells me she had smelled what seemed like something burning inside for a couple of weeks.

If your wife has smelled something for a couple of weeks, then most definintly YES you have a problem with other wiring that needs to be checked. Reason being is that the GFCI is outside, and she smelled something inside. You need to check all wiring on that circuit. One way that you could do it is talk to the Fire Department and see if they can check it with a thermal imaging camera. You would have to replace the GFCI with a plain outlet to complete the circuit, the the imaging camera would tell you where the hot spot is that caused it in the first place. Also check to see what all is on that circuit and start tracing from there. Any outlets on that circuit, pull them from the wall and check the wiring. Also if you know how the wiring is ran, check and see if there is any visible wiring that maybe a mouse has chewed, squirrel, rat, etc. Have you recently done any remodeling as to where you may have ran a drywall screw through and maybe pierced a wire? Older Maytag dishwashers had a recall where the soap dispenser underneath was leaking over the top of a circuit board and shorting our causing the potential for fire. It could be something like that and the circuit is tied into the GFCI. If you cannot figure it out call the electrician and they can trace a broken circuit, but I am not sure whether the same piece of equipment can trace on that is shorting out. But anytime that you smell anything electrical burning, you want to check it immediately. As with our house, the GFCI's are wired screwy. I have one in the garage that runs half the kitchen on a far garage wall, the other half of the kitchen is ran with a GFCI that is in the kitchen. Another GFCI in the kitchen is wired back to a bathroom in the hallway. Have you been running any Christmas lights or anything that would / could put an excessive load on a circuit? And with an outdoor outlet, GFCI or standard, small spiders and bugs can get into the outlet box. This could have maybe caused the GFCI to burn up, or may have kept it from working properly. You will want to check that. If you do find that bugs have been in ther, check any other outside outlet that you may have.
With the incident that we had on our dishwasher, my wife told me she smelled something electrical burning. I would come home from work, look around, but not find anything. Next day same thing (she washed the dishes in mid morning) I would come home and nothing. one Saturday I was home, she did the dishes and it popped the GFCI in the kitchen, and I smelled electrical burning. I pulled the dishwasher out and low and behold, the circuit board was fried black. Luckily the GFCI popped and enough soap ran out of the dispenser to keep from starting a fire. About 2 months after that, they started issuing recalls.

[davidcalhoun]

At least I know for sure that the refrigerator/freezer in the garage is on it's own dedicated circuit. I made sure of that.

The 2 inside basement rooms that were affected were a full bath and a guest bedroom/study. All the overhead fixtures in both rooms along with the guest bedroom wall outlets were on this same circuit as the problem outdoor CFCI. There is a wall GFCI outlet in the bathroom but it was not on this circuit. Should the outdoor GFCI have been on the same circuit as the bathroom GFCI instead? Again, I am no electrician.

I had kind of passed off the "smell" thing do to the fact that the odor of the burnt GFCI could have risen up throught the wall and into the floor joist area. But it sounds like I should have an electrician check it out.

[rinny_tin_tin]

GFCIs only protect against ground faults. That is, if it senses current flow from the hot (or neutral) to ground, for example. They are governed by UL 943 and the the residential GFCIs (Class A) are designed to trip from 6 mA to 264 mA - with an inverse current trip time. For instance, a 6 mA ground fault would take about 5 seconds to trip while a 264 mA GF would take about .001 seconds. Class A GFCIs are only designed to offer personnel protection from electric shock - hence why many jurisdictions invoke GFCIs fro wet and damp locations. In general - they work fine, are reliable, and have saved many lives. The 3rd edition of UL 943 corrects many problems inherent in the older GFCIs, namely corrosion and humidity sensitivity, etc., by use of conformal coatings, etc.

GFCIs will not protect against a high impedance arcing fault from the hot to the neutral - nor will it protect a person from shock if that person holds the neutral in one hand, and the hot in the other (unless that person happened to also be grounded). The burn damage you describe is consistent with a pole to neutral arcing fault. It may have been caused by some contaminate (paint, water, dirt, grease, etc) deposited on a conductor in such a way such as to reduce the required spacing between the poles. Once arcing starts, it doesn't take much to keep it going, and the circuit goes into "runaway" as the burning carbonizes the material, and thus the material becomes more conductive, offers the flame front more unburnt fuel (soot), etc.

GFCIs should be liberally used in any damp and wet locations (e.g., garages) I recommend that a breaker type GFCI be used to feed receptacles located in locations that may be prone to contaminants (including high humidity) over receptacles that include an integral GFCI circuit. Also, "in use" covers for such receptacles should also be considered at such locations, and can be retro-fitted very inexpensively.

[sberry]

What brand of breaker panel? Another though is that maybe there is a ground bond problem that didn't allow for a fault? I would be tempted to check the main panel to make sure the bond screw or jumper is in place.

[fotoflojoe]

I replaced a dead outside GFCI last week. Turns out, the weatherproof box that it lived in, wasn't so weatherproof after all. Water got in between box and siding, then killed the outlet. The box's fastening system kinda sucks.

[SCutchins]

All this talk of GFCI's and garage refrigerators has me nervous. I have three outlets in my garage, one is a GFCI that also supports another of the outlets, and then one of the outlets is tied into a GFCI that is in the basement. What the hell is up with that?!

Now you guys have me convinced to remove the basement GFCI and replace it with a regular old outlet (this isn't in a bathroom, its just a random outlet at the bottom of the basement stairs.)

It always scared me that the GFCI would pop and the food would go bad in the garage (I actually open the door every time I'm out there just to check) so this will do away with that.

And don't worry, I know, I really need to run another line for a dedicated outlet.... all in due time.

[tfi racing]

Nothing to get overly excited about here,poor workmanship most likely killed that GFCI,the screw terminals on some brands fool you into thinking you have a solid connection when you don't.Typically the lowest grunt on the residential electrician pole gets to install the receptacles on finishing and they generally don't have the necessary experience.As long as the scorched conductors can be cut back to the undamaged area and are still long enough to install a new GFCI you will be fine.Double check your terminals,it would be a good idea to pull the other GFCI's and check them,I bet the wires will pop out of one as you pull it from the box!

[rinny_tin_tin]

Your fridge need not be on a GFCI ckt, just a dedicated line as you satte- however, it would not be a bad idea if it was also on a GFCI ckt. If your GFCI is always tripping, it may be for good reason, or it may simply be bad. If you have a ground leakage, it is doing its job -- If its bad, its worthwhile to replace it with new. However, a properly functioning GFCI does not trip without good reason. I use GFCIs liberally, and although I had one or two go bad, all the others work fine and have tripped (luckily) when they should have.

[Mr_fixit]

MAybe this has nothing to do with a GFI and instead is a bad breaker ..Maybe Federal Pacific? or some short before the gfi. Get it checked out. I wouldn't necessarily blame it on the GFI, since there's so many other possibilities.. WAter, bad wiring, wrong size breaker,inadequate wiring size, loose box, screw missing, etc.

[LoneGunman]

"If you changed "GFCI" out in your quote above to "stab in the back receptacles" that would be the norm around here. GFCI's, not so much. Except for the occasional power spike or faulty appliance in the garage that trips the GFCI hidden behind a pile of crap stacked against the wall, I usually don't have much trouble with them."

Yup, we get a good amount of them that fail but not as many calls due to "backstabbing", of course the piece work guys love it, no good electrician who knows better backstabs.

[nissan_crawler]

Yup, we get a good amount of them that fail but not as many calls due to "backstabbing", of course the piece work guys love it, no good electrician who knows better backstabs.

I've never understood how it could seem a good idea to have a little spring and metal tab to hold an electrical connection. It's like having battery charger clamps on your cars battery cables.

Sidenote: Do electricians normally wrap the outlet with electrical tape, or am I just overly anal about it?

[LoneGunman]

I've never understood how it could seem a good idea to have a little spring and metal tab to hold an electrical connection. It's like having battery charger clamps on your cars battery cables.

Sidenote: Do electricians normally wrap the outlet with electrical tape, or am I just overly anal about it?

They really need to delist the backstabbing as an approved termination, of course they won't because they never go against the manufacturers. AFCI's for example, manufacturing reps sit on the board that changes the code, hmmmmmmmm a regular single pole breaker is $5, when an AFCI is $20, yup we need AFCI protection.

Tape wrapping is almost a sure sign of homeowner or handyman, no offense, theres no good reason not to do it, it's just not usually done. I have tape wrapped if the box is filled and the receptacle is going to be a pain in the butt to get back in and I was either too lazy to find the breaker to shut off or I'm working in an area where I can't shut down the circuit without causing a bunch of BS.

[79firebird]

Had a reg plug at my boss's house melt he had a heavy duty fridge pluged into it and the wires where just back stabed in the back. i hate them doing that but its was faster. I my self will wrap it with tape if its in a metal box if i can. if its a plastic one like the new ones i dont. force of habbit i guess. I my self have replaced a gfi outlet meany times in my place tell i got tired of it and put a gfi braker in havent had a prob since.

[Bull]

All the outlets in the downstairs of my barn are GFCI protected...not sure about the upstairs. I feel good having them.

[cdent]

Kind of funny. I bought a GFCI outlet yesterday to replace one that fizzled out. Anyway, the outlet comes out of the box with a disclaimer sticker on it that says it doesn't meet some '08 code for wet or damp locations. I guess it's just for show?

I also think, it's one of those things that they just don't make like they used to.

[Mr_fixit]

[
Sidenote: Do electricians normally wrap the outlet with electrical tape, or am I just overly anal about it?[/QUOTE]

define "electrician"

[bluesman2a]

They really need to delist the backstabbing as an approved termination, of course they won't because they never go against the manufacturers.

When I did my shop, I bought some nice spec grade Pass & Seymour HD 20 Amp outlets (both GFCI and normal), they had a good system for back-stabbing. Essentially there is another clamp INSIDE the outlet, controlled by the screws, so you strip, stick the wire into the slot and crank down the screw and the internal clamp closes over it. Took one apart and the internal clamp for backstabbing gives more surface/contact area than the traditional screw/wrap method would. I wouldn't say as a general approach it's bad, but you have to use the right product (the average outlet is NOT acceptable though).

Also for the GFCI discussion, I highly recommend the P&S 20 AMP spec grade GFCI's...
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj91/bluesman2a/DSCF0504.jpg
(yes, they are mounted upside down, like they do in hospitals, I liked the idea of having the ground plug on top in case something falls against it and it's partially pulled out).

[sberry]

Those are back wired not back stabbed, back wired is good. I did run in to some stabs in a trailer especially listed for 12 wire, despite that I am not a fan they did work well but were not used hard either.

[BigChevy80]

Failure rate, lost food due to one (fridge). That got ditched. Even the supposedly good ones don't last like they should. GFI in the garage trip when you run a block heater, saw, etc. Everything got tossed except the ones required in the kitchen and bathroom by code.

The freaking things drive me nuts.

I'm the same way. The only GFCI's in my house are the bathroom outlets and kitchen counter-level outlets. No way would I ever put a refrigerator or freezer on one.