Variations on Chrome [Archive] - The Garage Journal Board

bchee

01-08-2009, 12:35 AM

Interesting topic. I just got a proto wrench that has an amazing 'silver' chrome finish, although my snapon ratchets have a 'brighter' chrome (maybe more mirrorlike).

I have been disappointed with the chrome on the Craftsman sockets - they seem to be more grey and dull.

It's interesting to see how the appearance can vary so much even though they are all 'chromed.'

Bolster

01-08-2009, 12:38 AM

It's interesting to see how the appearance can vary so much even though they are all 'chromed.'

Exactly. And I don't understand why...I know little-to-nothing about chrome, and yet it's a major consideration of mine when purchasing new tools. If I don't like the chrome, it doesn't get purchased...yet I'd have difficulty putting into words what I like or am looking for...

Fedwrench

01-08-2009, 12:39 AM

School me about tool chrome:

1. I like Snap on chrome the best because, it doesn't seem to age. It's bright and shiney after exposure to automotive chemicals, time, and abuse. It still looks great years after purchase. I define good chrome as resilient. It's ability to stand up to whatever the user throws at it day in and day out.

2. Craftsman. Newer items have chrome peel and separation sitting on the store shelf. Craftsman chrome also seems to scratch easier than other brands and dulls significantly with age.

3. I think the luster on today's tools is much higher than before. Some of the older chrome tools I've seen had more of a buffed stainless finish than today's chrome.

On a side note, I like my chrome tools to show the scars of battle with today's vehicles. No display models. Everything gets used and abused. No polishing, just a wipe down and maybe a Cuda bath if greasey.:beer:

Merkava_4

01-08-2009, 12:40 AM

I'm more concerned about what's beneath the chrome.

wrenchr

01-08-2009, 04:15 AM

School me about tool chrome:

(1) What tool mfgr's chrome do you like best? Why do you like it? What makes good chrome "good"?

(2) Ever had a particular brand (not item, but an entire brand) that consistently gave you "chrome problems?"

(3) Why does the chrome on modern tools look so different from older tools?

#3 the metal is more polished so the chrome is brighter. When is the last time you have seen machine marks and or forge lines on a snap on tool?

CatfishXpress

01-08-2009, 10:19 AM

2. Craftsman. Newer items have chrome peel and separation sitting on the store shelf. Craftsman chrome also seems to scratch easier than other brands and dulls significantly with age.

I was wondering if anybody else was noticing this, I saw some Craftsman sockets on the shelf this week with really bad chrome separation. I left without purchasing anything.

Stuey

01-08-2009, 10:27 AM

I'm more concerned about what's beneath the chrome.
Agreed. You cannot have a good chrome layer without good surface preparation.
School me about tool chrome:

(1) What tool mfgr's chrome do you like best? Why do you like it? What makes good chrome "good"?

(2) Ever had a particular brand (not item, but an entire brand) that consistently gave you "chrome problems?"

(3) Why does the chrome on modern tools look so different from older tools?
I'll do some digging to see if I can answer 3) sufficiently.

krusty the clown

01-08-2009, 10:36 AM

Agreed. You cannot have a good chrome layer without good surface preparation.

I'll do some digging to see if I can answer 3) sufficiently.

from what i have been told some of the chemicals used in the plating process have been banned because they are environmentally hazardous.

goodfellow

01-08-2009, 10:48 AM

Good chrome is a function of the copper and nickel base. A really deep rich chrome finish is mosly due to the thickness and depth of the nickel that's underneath. That is an expensive process.

Craftsman (Danaher) obviously hasn't used a good nickel base for these products in years. Truck vendors aside, I'm super impressed with Gearwrench -- they have one of the best finishes I've ever seen.

buening

01-08-2009, 10:51 AM

Based on my automotive restoration experience, chrome varies immensely between manufacturers in terms of quality. It is also extremely expensive to do in the states (thanks EPA). I would venture to guess that the chrome on your more expensive brand tools (Snap On, Matco) will be much more durable than the cheaper stuff like Craftsman because they pride themselves on quality and tend to take few shortcuts. I don't beat the crap out of my ratchets, but my Craftsman Pro ratchets don't scratch any easier than my Snappys.

I agree that surface prep is key, just like any paint job. Kind of like comparing a professional paint job to a MAACO paint job ;)

64merc

01-08-2009, 11:17 AM

In my opinion, with the exception of the newer Crafsman (Danaher) sockets, most companies are doing a good job on the chrome plating. Even the overseas stuff is pretty nice. I got a 1/2" Duralast ratchet (thrown in on a tool deal) the other day that is beautiful. The chrome job is second to none, as far as I can tell. I'm not sure about long term durability though. The fit and finish is also excellent as well.:shocking:

3 at 8

01-08-2009, 11:39 AM

I've noticed differences in the C-man sockets between different code dates. My V-codes are definatly different than my G,G1,G2 code ones. The V's I have are a little duller which may be from use; but seem to be plated much better/thicker and are all very cosistant. My G,G1,and G2s are shiny but are all over the spectrum with cosistansy some having tints of gold or maybee a dark/smokey apperence. I've never seen peeling chrome on a socket of V-code or earlier. I am hoping the chrome on Toptul is at least as nice as Gearwrench as I just placed my first order. Somewhat related not trying to HJ: Is the satin finish such as that found on Toptul sockets/ratchets done by a plating process similar to chroming? Or something different entirely?

Stuey

01-08-2009, 11:43 AM

from what i have been told some of the chemicals used in the plating process have been banned because they are environmentally hazardous.

That's a good point. A lot of surface/preparation cleaners have been banned for the same reason, but I don't think they would account for such drastic cosmetic differences.

Bolster

01-08-2009, 12:14 PM

T56 Impala

01-08-2009, 01:34 PM

I like the chrome on the Craftsman Pro line wrenches. Its bright yet soft.

The ONLY problems I have ever had with chrome coming off of a tool was with Snap-On. Go figure. 2 of my sockets completely pealed. They were from completely different eras too.

daveblank

01-08-2009, 03:45 PM

School me about tool chrome:

(3) Why does the chrome on modern tools look so different from older tools?

#3 the metal is more polished so the chrome is brighter. When is the last time you have seen machine marks and or forge lines on a snap on tool?

To the best of my knowledge. Many older tools were chrome plated after they were manufactured. This can cause peeling. In some of the newer tools the "chrome" is in the metal then the tool is highly polished resulting in a different appearance than the plated tools.

Bolster

01-08-2009, 04:11 PM

The new tools are not plated ??!!

Just a high chromium steel with polish ??!!

Dog my cats. I had no idea. I'm shocked!!

oldtools

01-08-2009, 04:20 PM

I never have chrome flaking off with any brand (even HF) except for the new cman. I usually order them online (better deal) so I can not inspect them before buying. I recently order their pro line stubby wrench set. The 22 mm has some flaking around the 12 pt. I should have give Toptul a try. HF pro line has pretty good chroming. I thought SK has really good chroming (superchrome).

Stuey

01-08-2009, 04:58 PM

daveblank

01-08-2009, 05:07 PM

Can I ask where you found this information? I'd REALLY hate to have to saw through some of my wrenches to verify or dismiss this idea.

I'd be really surprised if there were tools made of solid chrome, but don't know enough (yet) to support either argument.

I was told that that's the new process most manufacturers are using. At training that's how they said our new wrenches are made.

& no they're not solid chrome.

LoneGunman

01-08-2009, 05:22 PM

To the best of my knowledge. Many older tools were chrome plated after they were manufactured. This can cause peeling. In some of the newer tools the "chrome" is in the metal then the tool is highly polished resulting in a different appearance than the plated tools.

No disrespect intended but you are wrong here, Peeling has nothing to do with it being plated after it's been manufactured. Plate enough pieces and you will have plating defects, it's as simple as that. "chrome" as we know it, as applied to wrenches, car bumpers, ETC,ETC,ETC is a very thin plating applied over nickle. Chrome itself has very poor corrosion resistance, the underlying nickle is what provides the corrosion resistance. If that underlying nickle plating is compromised the chrome will peel, if the part was not properly prepped, the chrome will peel, if the bath was not right, the chrome will peel, ETC ETC. There are hundreds of things that can go wrong with a plating process.

If some of the newer tools have "chrome" in the metal then it is not chrome at all.

"I'd be really surprised if there were tools made of solid chrome, but don't know enough (yet) to support either argument. "

It does not exist.

If you really want to learn way too much about the chrome plating process visit Finishing.com, word to the warning, it is not exactly interesting reading.

Variations in the color of chrome are most likely variations in the process which is most likely a patented process.

One reason for a dullish gray looking chrome may be it is not plated with a decorative chrome but it is plated with hard chrome instead. Hard chrome is used mostly in indiustrial applications like building up worn shafts. Thickness depends on immersion time. Hard chrome gets plated directly to the substrate, no copper or nickle.

buening

01-08-2009, 05:49 PM

Have they started making them in black chrome yet? I saw a Husky brand tool set online in black chrome, haven't seen it in person yet. Black chrome looks sweet on car rims, not sure about tools though

Jononon

01-08-2009, 06:05 PM

Not to stir up a hornet's nest, but:

As the better (meaning, more effective and maybe health risky) chroming chemicals keep getting banned in the US (particularly in California :rolleyes: ) do you think we will soon see the day where the best chrome comes from overseas, where they don't have their hands and feet tied by EPA regulations?

Germany's already there. Some plating operations for Wiha are done in Vietnam, other manufacturers are increasingly turning to the Czech republic for operations that won't play at home.

The same arguably applies to lithium ion batteries, almost exclusively manufactured in Japanese owned factories in China, although that's also a result of the intellectual property relating to LiIon largely being owned by Japanese companies.

Bolster

01-08-2009, 06:06 PM

I can shed a little light on the discussion...lots of steels have Chromium in them. The question is, how much chromium. More is not necessarily better, as is documented in the cutlery industry. More chromium means more luster and resistance to corrosion; I forget what the downsides are for tools (brittleness I think?) but for cutlery steel, more chromium means less able to hold an edge.

A "stainless steel" item is merely a steel that has around 12 or 13% chromium in it, which is enough to keep it from rusting in mild environments (will still rust out in the open sea, etc).

(Remember that it is "stain less" not "stain free." If you want stain free steel you need to substitute nitrogen for carbon, and you'd get a steel like H1, which can't rust. But I digress.)

I have always assumed that "chrome vanadium" steel was simply steel with chromium and vanadium added, but not enough chromium that it qualified as "stainless." And I have always assumed that the bright shiny Christmas-tree-ornament tools (like Snap-on sockets, Gearwrench, Toptul, S-K, etc) were chrome plated on top of some type of high quality steel.

I would be shocked, shocked :shocking: to discover that these super bright tools were merely highly polished high-chromium steels.

LoneGunman

01-08-2009, 06:16 PM

Chris Adams

01-08-2009, 06:52 PM

Judging from looks, feel of the chrome, care in the inside of the socket, care on the corners at the drive end, I’m gonna say TopTul first, Matco (older sockets), Gearwrench which on some is nicer than on my Matco’s but then, the Matco’s have been used, and dead last in name brand has got to be Craftsman, with cheap looking chrome, feel ranging from ‘smooth to rough’ where as the TopTul and Matco feel silky. The inside of the Craftsman sockets have flashing residue, looks almost like weld flash but is probably just from the casting.
I’m judging from having about 90 TopTul tools, about 40 Matco, maybe 70 Gearwrench and about 200 Craftsman sockets. Lots of new specimens, except on the Matco, which may be unfair.
Some nice chrome on the new 80 tooth Craftsman ratchets, but nothing like as nice as the TopTul stuff.
My absolute worst socket out of over 400 chrome sockets in the garage is a SnapOn. Pealing like a bad skin disease. It’s a 7/16 swivel that was sprayed with brake cleaner and left on the bench for about three months… Of the four sockets that were treated that way the Snappy is the only one that peeled. I have no idea why.

Jononon

01-08-2009, 06:55 PM

I have always assumed that "chrome vanadium" steel was simply steel with chromium and vanadium added, but not enough chromium that it qualified as "stainless."

Typically Chrome vanadium steels have around 1% chrome. They're not highly corrosion resistant, hence the chrome plating.

And I have always assumed that the bright shiny Christmas-tree-ornament tools (like Snap-on sockets, Gearwrench, Toptul, S-K, etc) were chrome plated on top of some type of high quality steel.

I would be shocked, shocked :shocking: to discover that these super bright tools were merely highly polished high-chromium steels.

As goodfellow says, shiny chrome tools (Snap-on, Gearwrench, et al) are copper nickel chrome plated, in the same manner as decorative automotive chrome, with the copper giving a levelling and polishable layer.

High quality dull finish tools, typically German, are direct chromed with 'hard chrome'. This is commonly used in the engineering industry and extremely hard, tenacious, and corrosion resistant but it is less visually appealing.

The environmental problem is that all this involves highly toxic chromium compounds, Erin Brockovich's campaign centred on hexavalent chromium, which is used in the chroming process. RoHS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Substances_Directive) effectively bans hexavalent chromium from most manufacturing uses in Europe, but tools and tooling are currently exempt (as there isn't an adequate alternative.)

Bolster

01-08-2009, 10:00 PM

Very interesting. Thanks.

I have long suspected that some of the old Plomb tools are hard chrome. It is never shiny, not even on smooth surfaces, just matte. And has an almost "white" look to it. Some people think it looks like silver spray paint. Could that be hard chrome?

Also, now I have even one more reason to dislike Erin Brockovich.

davestlouis

01-08-2009, 10:31 PM

I thought Plomb used a cadmium plating process of some sort...although, to be fair, I probably read that somewhere on GJ

davestlouis

01-08-2009, 10:33 PM

Wow, wouldn't that be a kick in the behind if you couldn't get tools, or anything else for that matter, chromed in the US? Made-here diehards would have to settle for an oxide/Parkerized finish of some sort or buy imported items.

Bolster

01-08-2009, 10:33 PM

I thought Plomb used a cadmium plating process of some sort...although, to be fair, I probably read that somewhere on GJ

Ya, during the war mostly, as a stop-gap. Most of their non-wartime tools weren't cad plated however; early were "raw" and later were chromed (although you can find one once in awhile that's a cad-plated non-wartime tool, but not many).

The vast majority of Plomb cad-plated tools say "WF" on them and look "dusty silver." Don't wire brush them, you don't want cad loose in the air where you can breathe it.

Heck, don't wire brush tools, period. There are so many better ways to restore a tool!

(Ducking for cover, here come the wire brushers...)

davestlouis

01-08-2009, 10:35 PM

I have always been nervous about disturbing the finish on my Plomb tools (polishing, etc) for fear of killing myself with cadmium residue, maybe it's not as big a deal as I thought.

Bolster

01-08-2009, 10:39 PM

On ALL your Plombs? No, cad plating is quite distinctive. Look for that "dusty silver" look, and most WF tools are cad plated.

Oh BTW Plomb was not the only one to use cad finish on war era tools. I think a lot of major mfgrs did.

davestlouis

01-08-2009, 10:40 PM

Well, I'm too lazy to dig around in the boxes in the basement tonight...I'll take a look over the weekend and see what they look like.

davestlouis

01-08-2009, 10:41 PM

When I think of cadmium, I think of brake boosters and other GM parts, with multiple colors, goldish/greenish mostly.

LoneGunman

01-08-2009, 11:01 PM

Bolster, that universal I have is a "wf" and has the dusty silver look to it. I also have a 3/8" drive 3/8" socket that's a "wf". If those are what you collect I'll send the socket if we trade the universals, if not shoot me your address and I'll just send you the socket, as you know, I don't collect but I can't not buy them for .10