The Smoke and Mirrors of Tools!

[autoace]

If I hit mega bucks next week, I would own just about the entire Hazet catalog tool collection(out of want only). That being said, I have seen many wrong conclusions about tools in many threads. After the smoke and mirrors are overlooked, the following are the facts.

1)No pro wrencher would stop making a living if truck tool dealers didn't exist.

2)Many Craftsman etc.(plug in Gearwrench,whatever) tools are fine for any pro mechanic...exceptions would be torque wrenches(Precision tools would be a good choice), and specialty offerings, which are usually truck tool re-labels of some sort anyway. A seasoned pro doesn't have to have Snap-on, Cornwell,.....

3)All tools fail if pushed, I have never found truck tool brands to be stronger or much better than anything else. Sure you can compare a high end tool, to some pathetic cheap tool, but that is not a realistic comparison.

4)As a pro, there are times one MUST do unorthodox things to tools to get a job done. I the real world, not everything comes apart easy, and sometimes there is no "proper" tool for the weird circumstances.

5)For all younger guys who have not been bent over by the Snap-on, etc...bug; don't feel you have to spend mega bucks on basic tools. Save it for specialty tools and scanners,etc...

6)Most important, most of the "truck tool companies" are marketing and bling. They do make some items you will want, and treating yourself is fine and affordable, when you choose carefully.

7)When you can afford it, don't overlook the German tool companies. IMHO there is alot less smoke and mirrors, and more real quality in Hazet, and similar type brands than say Snap-on etc...

I have bought more Snap-on tools than say:headscrat70% (estimated) of this board, and all I can say is, thank goodness for the resale value, because I wasted money over the years.

For all you Snappy Happy folks, that is fine. This thread is for the young guys that don't owe the tool truck 150.00 bucks+ a week yet. Don't feel you have to spend it because you are a "pro". You efforts would be better spent becoming the best mechanic you can become, and doing the job 100% correct. TOOL BRAND DON'T MAKE THE MECHANIC!

I would enter an engine building competition with a "handicap" of all Craftsman tools (except torque wrenches, bolt stretch gauges, degree wheels, micrometers etc...). All the other techs, could have Snap-on hand tools, I wouldn't give a hoot, why? Because skills and know how would prevail, not tool bling. enough said, commence with the b.s. and Snap-on worship:bowdown:

[Tarheelgarage]

Well said; I agree.
Most of my tools are CMan with a small scattering of SO and Mac bought used.
Too many young techs get in over their heads and get raped by the tool truck guys without the dealer even offering to lube them first.

[sk farmer]

with you 100% autoace. i have some of almost all brands. i buy for my likes and needs not for the name. i know too many people who have stopped turning wrenches for various reasons and have had to ditch their tools because they could not afford them after that. i suspect some quit because they could not afford the tools they absolutely had to have. a lot of it is just fluff

[paramudduck]

OK my BS, You are totally right.
Dad and I were going through accounts for the sale last night,$68+K In Snap on tools since we had the place. Sixteen times we had tools warrantied with out a hassle. 5k worth of tools disappeared with different dealers who never returned.
Most of the SO stuff is going as part of the sale. Let my cousins fight the company.

[autoace]

OK my BS, You are totally right.
Dad and I were going through accounts for the sale last night,$68+K In Snap on tools since we had the place. Sixteen times we had tools warrantied with out a hassle. 5k worth of tools disappeared with different dealers who never returned.
Most of the SO stuff is going as part of the sale. Let my cousins fight the company.

Snap-on's poor warranty was the final blow for me also. I almost don't own any Snap-on tools anymore. Like I said, at least there is a good re-sale value on the damn things. Good luck!

[Merkava_4]

For me, working on cars with premium truck brand tools is 99.99% of the fun. The thought of having to work on cars with nothing but Craftsman tools is flat out depressing. :(

[autoace]

For me, working on cars with premium truck brand tools is 99.99% of the fun. The thought of having to work on cars with nothing but Craftsman tools is flat out depressing. :(

Not having the right press adaptor, not having scanner coverage, not having the right puller, not having proper torque specs, not having correct quick release tool, not having the proper specialty tool, for the job.

ALL THE ABOVE ARE DEPRESSING

Whether the socket is a Craftsman or a Cornwell, I'm turning the bolt with....no big deal!

[v8garage]

For me, working on cars with premium truck brand tools is 99.99% of the fun. The thought of having to work on cars with nothing but Craftsman tools is flat out depressing. :(

Listening to snap-on worshipers on this board is even more depressing.:lol_hitti

[chammyman]

as autoace said sometimes you have to resort to unorthodox methods to rectify a problem.

Sometimes you have to use that extension as a drift, that screwdriver as a lever, belt the spanner with a sledgehammer, heat up and bend a spanner into a funny shape.

Or relying on a tool to shear to seat some heavy plant machinary out in the field etc

Easy to do thinsg right in the confines of a cosy shop but you can;t drag everything out up a hill into a forest with you.

Doing that with SO etc makes for an expensive 'consumable' list

[Uncle Buck]

Not having the right press adaptor, not having scanner coverage, not having the right puller, not having proper torque specs, not having correct quick release tool, not having the proper specialty tool, for the job.

ALL THE ABOVE ARE DEPRESSING

Whether the socket is a Craftsman or a Cornwell, I'm turning the bolt with....no big deal!

Listening to snap-on worshipers on this board is even more depressing.:lol_hitti

For the most part I am contenting myself with letting you boys fight this battle anymore, I am content to just smile and read! :pimpflash

[autoace]

as autoace said sometimes you have to resort to unorthodox methods to rectify a problem.

Sometimes you have to use that extension as a drift, that screwdriver as a lever, belt the spanner with a sledgehammer, heat up and bend a spanner into a funny shape.

Or relying on a tool to shear to seat some heavy plant machinary out in the field etc

Easy to do thinsg right in the confines of a cosy shop but you can;t drag everything out up a hill into a forest with you.

Doing that with SO etc makes for an expensive 'consumable' list

:lol_hitti
That consumable part is right. I remember being in my mid-twenties, and breaking my first Snap-on tool, with little effort. I said "but it's a Snap-on"...the older mechanic in the next bay laughed, and just shook his head. I was stupid, I mean after all, I couldn't be the only young mechanic at the dealer without designer tools right:wtf:. I always wondered why the "old man" didn't stop working for the tool trucks. He couldn't get anything replaced under warranty either, since he stopped buying tools from the dealer.:confused:

[Moose-LandTran]

Haven't we covered all this already? (multiple times?)

[-B-]

Brand sheep make me sick they have no clue as to what is real quality.

Given all the money, I would need I would buy the best to me/ for me no matter the brand or country of origin. That said I pretty much do as I say already, though sometimes I do have to make concessions due to money. I never buy a tool that I expect to replace with another of better quality.

[autoace]

Haven't we covered all this already? (multiple times?)

Not as much as 80 tooth Snap-on ratchets, and ebay items, and hard handled SO screwdrivers and ratchets.:lol_hitti There were alot of new members threading "Are these tools better/worth it" I don't think they read the archives. I have a small quest to save them some money.

[speed bump]

For me, working on cars with premium truck brand tools is 99.99% of the fun. The thought of having to work on cars with nothing but Craftsman tools is flat out depressing. :(

Having to make do without all of the proper tools because you can't afford them after buying basic expensive hand tools is depressing to me. If I had to buy a brand new set of SO 1/4-13/16" wrenches (or even a used one for that matter) it would cost more than what I have in wrenches from 1/4-1 1/16" and 6-19mm including duplicates and gear wrenches. For me it is much more satisfying to have all the tools to do the job rather than have the tools that look pretty in the tool box.

When I worked at the mine here one day we had a slow day so we went over and BS'd with some of the mechanics. These guys where making about 90-100 grand that year and so you saw 20-30 something year old guys with the most mind blowing collections of Snap-on tools known to man (the cornwell dealer wasn't around at that point and the Mac guy had retired) but the best guy in that shop was in his 40s worked out of a 6' tall 26" SK box with mostly Craftsman or S-K with a few Snap-on tools thrown in and he was the fastest/best mechanic in that shop. Basically he said the brand on your tools doesn't matter how well you use them is all that matters.

[Merkava_4]

Haven't we covered all this already? (multiple times?)

autoace is trying to convince himself that premium truck tool brands are UNnecessary, when deep down inside, he longs for them desperately. It's the oldest self inflicting psychological ploy in the books; a first year psychiatric student could figure that out. :bounce:

[MarkH]

The bad point of this thread is that someone can take it too far the other way. When the money is on the line quality tools are needed. That is why we have a minimum we buy for the farm. As we got nicer tools in the shops a couple other family members were trying to prove that I had a problem. So we ended up with some tool shaped objects. The stuff you have nightmares about.

I had a combine go down and needed an impact, I grabbed the one that I had not bought out of the pickup and fired up the compressor. Thing would not turn anything. So I had the choice of taking off 2 hours of bolts by hand and putting them back vs 15 min each way. A two hour trip to get a good one from the shop. Bad weather coming we lost about $3500 that day. Repeated that 3 times in one year. We set a minimum quality we will buy and no one has messed with it since.

So you do not need all of the highest priced stuff, truck, etc. But it does need to be a quality that it will not 1. hurt you, 2. cost you money. That level is different for me and each of the group here.

[autoace]

autoace is trying to convince himself that premium truck tool brands are UNnecessary, when deep down inside, he longs for them desperately. It's the oldest self inflicting psychological ploy in the books; a first year psychiatric student could figure that out. :bounce:

I clearly stated I would prefer a Hazet huge master set:drool: I am clearly stating needs and reality. Alot of guys think they need these tools to do their job. There are soo many other specialty tools and equipment one truely needs.

If I lived next to you, you would need my Tech2 scanner and OTC slide hammer with axle fork(for starters)are real needs for me. Pretty tools are just a preference, not a true need.

Nice poke attempt:):lol_hitti

[autoace]

case in point:
The first job of the week is a 2005 Volvo XC(timing belt,water pump,etc...). I will need several specialty tools to set up valve timing, and cam sprocket alignment if it needs seals(there are no keys on the cams, for sproket orientation). A high quality torque wrench, and specific tools, and know how skills are needed. Turning the fasteners with Craftsman sockets is fine, Snap-on jewelry is not necessary. I will walk away with a 600.00 dollar profit for monday without the "designer" tools. With no Snap-on bill to pay, I could afford the special tools, and I can keep more of the profit.:bounce:

[Snap on]

Wow, you must really hate your Snap On Dealer.

I have a full set of Snap On tools along with some MAC, Matco and Cornwell as well.

I have dumped all my craftsman stuff from my work box because it was not of the quality needed to make a living with.

How about this a Craftsman 1/2 drive breaker bar busted at the swivel. Welded it in place and kept using for several more years but lost the ability to use the swivel. I tossed it and have a Snap On breaker bar and it is still going strong like new.

If you make a living out of a tool box you can't afford to use Craftsman as your main tool source. I have enough tools in my box that if I break a Snap On product it does not stop me, and I don't have to take my time and go to sears to have it replaced, the tool truck comes to me, I hand them the broken tool and they hand me a new one to replace it.

Over the years I have only had to have maybe three items replaced that were name brand i.e. Snap On, MAC, Matco or Cornwell for that matter.

You get what you pay for, you want to buy that 50 dollar wrench set, expect to break a few wrenches, you want to save some money and buy that 40 dollar socket set from sears, you can nobody is stopping you.

The point is don't try to discourage others from buying top quality tools.

Now having said all that, at home I have Craftsman professional wrenches along with gear wrenches, I also have Northern Tools for my sockets and ratchets. Would I ever think of trying to make a living with those tools? No way. But for home use they work OK, if I break one I am not stuck with down time losing money.

There is a place for the second tier tools like you are buying, in a shop where you depend on your tools every day is not the place for them.

That does not mean that a new guy starting out can't use some of them until he can afford to get the best from Snap On, MAC, Matco or Cornwell.

[Vulturej]

autoace is trying to convince himself that premium truck tool brands are UNnecessary, when deep down inside, he longs for them desperately. It's the oldest self inflicting psychological ploy in the books; a first year psychiatric student could figure that out. :bounce:

Tiring to keep his thread at the top, Man it looks like it might be fatal.:lol_hitti

[Laredo]

For me, working on cars with premium truck brand tools is 99.99% of the fun. The thought of having to work on cars with nothing but Craftsman tools is flat out depressing. :(


Ain't that the truth!! Ditto. :thumbup:

Love those Snap-on, Mac, and Matco tools. Nuthin' but the best for me!

[Snap on]

I like the feel of Snap On wrenches in the hand, MAC's are to thick for my liking, Matco does not feel as balanced I do not have any Cornwell wrenches but suspect they would be like Matco from their design.

Quality costs money, there is no changing that fact.

[autoace]

Having to make do without all of the proper tools because you can't afford them after buying basic expensive hand tools is depressing to me. If I had to buy a brand new set of SO 1/4-13/16" wrenches (or even a used one for that matter) it would cost more than what I have in wrenches from 1/4-1 1/16" and 6-19mm including duplicates and gear wrenches. For me it is much more satisfying to have all the tools to do the job rather than have the tools that look pretty in the tool box.

When I worked at the mine here one day we had a slow day so we went over and BS'd with some of the mechanics. These guys where making about 90-100 grand that year and so you saw 20-30 something year old guys with the most mind blowing collections of Snap-on tools known to man (the cornwell dealer wasn't around at that point and the Mac guy had retired) but the best guy in that shop was in his 40s worked out of a 6' tall 26" SK box with mostly Craftsman or S-K with a few Snap-on tools thrown in and he was the fastest/best mechanic in that shop. Basically he said the brand on your tools doesn't matter how well you use them is all that matters.

Sounds about right. A true master mechanic, that is conscientious about his work is the real deal. An idiot with alot of designer tools, is just that.

[Snap on]

Sounds about right. A true master mechanic, that is conscientious about his work is the real deal. An idiot with alot of designer tools, is just that.

So because someone takes pride in their tools and makes the investment in quality brands like Snap On, MAC, Matco or Cornwell they are an idiot?

If you ever did own Snap On, then you would know that they are a great value after all you claim that you sold your Snap On tools for great prices and have replaced them with second tier tools. I guess you came out ahead of the game.

Try doing that with your new second tier tools you now own. You won't get more then 25 cents on the dollar for them.

I guess I will just continue to be an idiot and use and purchase Snap On tools.

Then again I don't want to spend my off time running to sears replacing all the tools I would be breaking using second tier tools while trying to make a living.

Something tells me there is more to the story about your Snap On man then you are telling. :pimpflash

[A_Pmech]

Speed Bump said something that reminded me of a funny experience which I think may add a dimension to this discussion.

WARNING: Long post ahead.



I started at the very bottom. I began the long slog of a 7-year apprenticeship as an aircraft mechanic at the age of 11. I did it partly out of the drive for knowledge, partly out of necessity. I knew where I wanted to go and I knew how I was going to get there.

Obviously, I couldn't afford much. I made a solid $2.50 an hour, which went right back into flying lessons. In the early days, most of my tools were auto parts store house brands. Many were bought by my parents, though they tried to buy Craftsman when they could afford it. I had a little 12" three-drawer roll-around cabinet that I kept all my stuff in. It had about as much storage space as three small hand boxes.

One afternoon, my master called the senior apprentice and myself into the office. One of the company planes had mechanical trouble at an airport 350 miles away. We were to collect our tools and fly out to the plane and effect repairs so it could be flown back the next morning. We both spoke with the pilot and formulated a plan of attack before heading out to our boxes and the parts room.

The senior apprentice had a LARGE Snap-On toolbox, costing somewhere around $9,000. Somehow or another, he managed to fill it with SO tools, probably though the miracle of debt. I've never before or since seen so many different types of sockets. Amazing.

Anyway, I pulled out my Air Force tool bag and crammed the majority of my collection into it's various pockets and slung it over my shoulder. As I walked out of the hangar towards the terminal, I heard the senior apprentice yell my name. I turned around and looked in his direction. He was standing there, half the drawers of his box open, dazed look in his eyes, yelling "HOW AM I GOING TO TAKE EVERYTHING WE NEED?!?!?!?"

I shrugged, said some kind of snide remark like "Got a dart board?" and walked up to the terminal. He came packing 20 minutes later, weighed down by two large duffel bags full of crap rattling around inside.

Fast forward two hours later, and we're on the ground at the other airport. The hosts have been kind enough to drag the airplane into their hangar, giving us a little shelter from the gale outside. I pulled out my $2 ratcheting screwdriver and got to work.

By the time the senior apprentice had found the ideal screwdriver for the job, I'd already dropped both cowlings, assessed the situation, and was preparing to get on the phone to send for parts. He gave me a look that could kill, dropped his crap back into one of the duffels, and huffed out the door.

I hung the new parts, buttoned up the cowl, collected my garbage, and walked out the door. The senior apprentice was still in a snit and I heard no end of it on the flight home.

Six months later, the senior apprentice quit. He couldn't pass the knowledge tests to obtain his mechanic's license. I found out later that he couldn't get the job done with the tools supplied by the examiner. He's driving a truck now. The fancy tools? Repo'd by the SO man.

I spent another 5 years there before I was old enough to take the tests and rose up through the ranks of junior apprentice, senior apprentice, to shop foreman. I went to the same examiner the then senior apprentice went to.

At the beginning of the test I was handed a battered old plumber's toolbox filled with well-worn old tools. Many were names I'd never heard of. They were the examiner's father's tools, the tools HE started with. I passed the tests in record time, scoring 100% in every area.

The moral of this story?

Well, if there is one, I'd say: It isn't the tools. ;)

Don't get overwhelmed in the details, like 50 socket sets, specialty tools for every single thing on the planet, etc. Simply DO.

[davestlouis]

I have an observation about what I consider 1st tier tools. SO resale tends to be stronger than any other brand, in my experience, so if you're buying high-end tools NEW, buy SO, because you'll recover more if and when you sell. If you're buying USED, avoid SO like the plague, and buy Cornwell or industrial brands like Proto, pay a lot less for very nice tools. Let the original purchaser take the beating on initial depreciation that way. Buying used is the best of both worlds...top-tier tools, for very little money.

[wantedabiggergarage]

I feel like someone has been reading my signature.

The BEST mechanic I know, could do amazing work with bubble gum and bailing wire.

One of the worst, I know, at least had some good advice. He thinks Snap is the chit, but he also things Plomb/Plumb, started them (thinks they are the same company). His advice, buy the best you can afford. You will find out what breaks and what you need to upgrade.


Then he added the bad advice, after you have done that, then upgrade everything else.

[Steve in SoCal]

I know very little about the current state of hand tools made by companies mentioned however; 30 or so years ago when I started to amass tools, Snap On had a far superior wrench and socket set to all the other American makers. My dad bought me a very nice set of Proto tools as a B-Day present when I was 13 or 14, by the time I was 15 I was adding Snap On wrenches and sockets to the mix because they were able to get into tighter spots than the Protos. Craftsmen at the time were perhaps 25% bulkier than the Proto wrenches. I am 49 so this is about 35 years ago.

My business partner had Gear wrenches and they seem to be fine quality but the do have the bulkier box end along with his C-men wrenches, not as bulky as 35 years ago but still more material. He also has Hazet and Stwhile tools, the German allen sockets are supposed to the best, two of them failed horribly and my SO came to the rescue on a couple of cars. I have a number of Mercedes factory tools that are likely made by brand H or S and they are fine quality but are only used when needed. Others have mentioned feel; this is a factor for my preference as well, a smooth, well proportioned tool feels right when pulling on it with your pinky at some gawd awful angle.

I suppose getting some tools for a reasonable price is better than not having any but don't say that Snap On is worthless or has no advantage over lesser cost tools. They do have smaller high strength bodies that can go where other tools can't and I have found the 12 pt broach in their sockets and wrenches to be far more durable. There will usually be stand out product in a given segment to deny the validity of that is naive. Porsche doesn't pretend to compete with KIA but they both make cars. Every one has their own unique situation and; their own needs, making a blanket statement dissing a product as too elitist or superfluous because they are costly in your opinion, is just that your opinion.

Steve

[SteveV]

I agree with your post, Autoace. I think it's good to hear a professional mechanic say you don't need super-expensive tools to do your job. What I can't stand is the attitude of "You're not a professional unless you use the tool truck brand. You wouldn't understand" It's almost like years ago when kids "needed" expensive Air Jordan sneakers to "play their best" and be taken seriously on the basketball court. They were just being suckered by shrewd marketing.

My main problem with brands like Snap On is there is simply no way the retail price of their tools in anywhere near their actual cost to manufacture them. I look at a set of Craftsman Pro wrenches (around 25 wrenches), and a complete set of Metric and SAE cost around $200. It's high-quality, made in the US, and has a lifetime warranty. Sears is obviously making a profit on them. The same set of Snap On would cost around $700-$800. I'll assume the Snap On set is "better", but do you really think it cost Snap On $600 more to manufacture those wrenches compared to Craftsman? There's simply no way, Snap On is just putting a huge markup compared to the store brands. A lot of this is the way the tools are sold, with "free' financing built into the price.

The other line of reasoning that I hear about the expensive tool brands is "They fit the fastener properly the other "lesser" brands don't" What doesn't make sense about this logic is, how is is that only an expensive tool can properly fit an inexpensive 10 cent fastener? It just doesn't make sense. If a nut manufacturer can consistently make a fastener the proper size at such a low price, why can't a tool manufacturer also make a reasonably priced tool that can fit it properly?"

I also own a mixture of the expensive brands, and I do like them and think they're high quality, but I would have to spend around $40k for my tool collection if I only bought brands like Snap On. I'm not willing to make that sort of investment, and I really don't think any person, professional or amateur, needs to put that much money in hand tools to do their job.

[autoace]

So because someone takes pride in their tools and makes the investment in quality brands like Snap On, MAC, Matco or Cornwell they are an idiot?

If you ever did own Snap On, then you would know that they are a great value after all you claim that you sold your Snap On tools for great prices and have replaced them with second tier tools. I guess you came out ahead of the game.

Try doing that with your new second tier tools you now own. You won't get more then 25 cents on the dollar for them.

I guess I will just continue to be an idiot and use and purchase Snap On tools.

Then again I don't want to spend my off time running to sears replacing all the tools I would be breaking using second tier tools while trying to make a living.

Something tells me there is more to the story about your Snap On man then you are telling. :pimpflash

Maybe you should learn how to read and comprehend. I posted that in response to another post, that I quoted, hence not quoting you!

I was a big Snap-on advocate for a long time, they are not worth it!

If you want to buy them that is your business, you have been programed to believe the "tier" system. I cannot count the times a Snap-on tool broke and I finished the job with a "second or even third tier tool". You will see...Snap-on bit sockets are the biggest joke for the money.

I wasn't refering to you in the post you are crying about, but if the shoe fits wear it.

Alot of members here know my story, so if you are that interested, dig through the archives, otherwise go make a Snap-on thread or something.

[nissan_crawler]

Wow, you must really hate your Snap On Dealer.

I have a full set of Snap On tools along with some MAC, Matco and Cornwell as well.

I have dumped all my craftsman stuff from my work box because it was not of the quality needed to make a living with.

How about this a Craftsman 1/2 drive breaker bar busted at the swivel. Welded it in place and kept using for several more years but lost the ability to use the swivel. I tossed it and have a Snap On breaker bar and it is still going strong like new.

If you make a living out of a tool box you can't afford to use Craftsman as your main tool source. I have enough tools in my box that if I break a Snap On product it does not stop me, and I don't have to take my time and go to sears to have it replaced, the tool truck comes to me, I hand them the broken tool and they hand me a new one to replace it.

Over the years I have only had to have maybe three items replaced that were name brand i.e. Snap On, MAC, Matco or Cornwell for that matter.

You get what you pay for, you want to buy that 50 dollar wrench set, expect to break a few wrenches, you want to save some money and buy that 40 dollar socket set from sears, you can nobody is stopping you.

The point is don't try to discourage others from buying top quality tools.

Now having said all that, at home I have Craftsman professional wrenches along with gear wrenches, I also have Northern Tools for my sockets and ratchets. Would I ever think of trying to make a living with those tools? No way. But for home use they work OK, if I break one I am not stuck with down time losing money.

There is a place for the second tier tools like you are buying, in a shop where you depend on your tools every day is not the place for them.

That does not mean that a new guy starting out can't use some of them until he can afford to get the best from Snap On, MAC, Matco or Cornwell.

I'm calling BS on this. Use what you want, and you don't need to justify it, but that's a load of crap. I'm going on 7 years of using them, and have no issues or reasons to replace them with Snap-On. I think I've broken 4 Craftsman things in those 7 years, and I've had way more Snap-On get replaced, if we want to be picky.

So because someone takes pride in their tools and makes the investment in quality brands like Snap On, MAC, Matco or Cornwell they are an idiot?

If you ever did own Snap On, then you would know that they are a great value after all you claim that you sold your Snap On tools for great prices and have replaced them with second tier tools. I guess you came out ahead of the game.

Try doing that with your new second tier tools you now own. You won't get more then 25 cents on the dollar for them.

I guess I will just continue to be an idiot and use and purchase Snap On tools.

Then again I don't want to spend my off time running to sears replacing all the tools I would be breaking using second tier tools while trying to make a living.

Something tells me there is more to the story about your Snap On man then you are telling. :pimpflash

A little self-righteous are we? He's not saying somebody with all Snap-On is an idiot, he's saying a good mechanic is a good mechanic. A crappy mechanic with Snap-On will still be a crappy mechanic. I use Craftsman, they work fine, and I've hardly ever broken one. If you keep breaking tools all the time, I suggest you look at how you're using them.

[autoace]

I have an observation about what I consider 1st tier tools. SO resale tends to be stronger than any other brand, in my experience, so if you're buying high-end tools NEW, buy SO, because you'll recover more if and when you sell. If you're buying USED, avoid SO like the plague, and buy Cornwell or industrial brands like Proto, pay a lot less for very nice tools. Let the original purchaser take the beating on initial depreciation that way. Buying used is the best of both worlds...top-tier tools, for very little money.

Proto is one of my non-truck brand favorites, The prices are reasonable, most still USA made. Their bit sockets are much better than SO's brittle ones. Good corporate warranty, no dealer hassle.:thumbup:

[bgott]

1. The last time I started replacing my tools after a theft I was bound and determined that I was going to avoid the trucks. I bought Craftsman sockets and they worked fine. After a while the Craftsman problem reared it's ugly head. You wear out or break a socket and then you carry it back to Sears and they NEVER have the socket you need in stock. You always break the popular sockets, it used to be 1/2" and 9/16", now 13 and 15 mm, and so does everybody else!:mad: So, I buy SO sockets because I know they will be in the driveway every week, around here, anyway, and I have Craftsman wrenches. I don't break either the flat panel or the Pros that I have. I bought a set of K-Mart Benchtop metric end wrenches at the flea market when I re-started buying tools. I swore that I would buy a real set of wrenches when I broke one and didn't break one in 5 years. Doubled up, stomped on, beaten with a big hammer, never broke one. I finally bought a set of Craftsman Pros because the Benchtops are a little short, I still have 'em.

2. I have heard the old saw " tools don't make the mechanic" my whole life. I can just about overhaul an engine on the side of the road with a screwdriver and a pair of pliers. With that said, those mechanics that come through the door with a duffel bag or a tote tray and a " why have you pissed off all that money on all those tools and all those different sets of sockets" attitude are usually the biggest tool bums in the world and also seem to f*ck up everything they touch. I don't have every tool made but I have worked around the same group of guys here and know what they have in their boxes. I have bought stuff they don't have so we mostly come out even on the borrowing. Those tool light genuises usually parachute in, drop turds for 6 monthes or so and then leave a bunch of come backs for others to clean up.

[autoace]

1. The last time I started replacing my tools after a theft I was bound and determined that I was going to avoid the trucks. I bought Craftsman sockets and they worked fine. After a while the Craftsman problem reared it's ugly head. You wear out or break a socket and then you carry it back to Sears and they NEVER have the socket you need in stock. You always break the popular sockets, it used to be 1/2" and 9/16", now 13 and 15 mm, and so does everybody else!:mad: So, I buy SO sockets because I know they will be in the driveway every week, around here, anyway, and I have Craftsman wrenches. I don't break either the flat panel or the Pros that I have. I bought a set of K-Mart Benchtop metric end wrenches at the flea market when I re-started buying tools. I swore that I would buy a real set of wrenches when I broke one and didn't break one in 5 years. Doubled up, stomped on, beaten with a big hammer, never broke one. I finally bought a set of Craftsman Pros because the Benchtops are a little short, I still have 'em.

2. I have heard the old saw " tools don't make the mechanic" my whole life. I can just about overhaul an engine on the side of the road with a screwdriver and a pair of pliers. With that said, those mechanics that come through the door with a duffel bag or a tote tray and a " why have you pissed off all that money on all those tools and all those different sets of sockets" attitude are usually the biggest tool bums in the world and also seem to f*ck up everything they touch. I don't have every tool made but I have worked around the same group of guys here and know what they have in their boxes. I have bought stuff they don't have so we mostly come out even on the borrowing. Those tool light genuises usually parachute in, drop turds for 6 monthes or so and then leave a bunch of come backs for others to clean up.

The Benchtop thing is interesting, I had a set of those, I received as a gift years ago. I threw them in my junkyard crawl box, and low and behold, they have been indestructible,LOL

When I went into business for myself is when I learned a lesson. At a dealership they supply you with a lift,insurance,heat,specialty tools,scanners,etc... Once I needed to supply all those things for myself is when I learned 380.00 buck wrench sets were not the only choice. You cannot make any money without all the shop equipment and special tools, hence my stop of Snap-on hand tools for the most part. I never hired mechanics without tools. I gave all of them a fairly simple interview exam, and was surprised at how little some of the "master" techs knew, with or without tons of tools.:headscrat

[mkdive]

http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[ImportTuner]

http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

+1 ... Please try to keep things civil .. Thanks

[tankboy_taylor]

One thing is for sure a good mechanic is a good regardless of the tools he uses.

I think the OP is coming from an owner/tech perspective therefore he has alot more overhead hence why the top hand tools arent that important to him.

for alot of us guys working in shops I think its not just having the right tool but also taking pride and accomplishment in building the best possible tool sets that we can. with quality components. plus if you got cash there is some great deals to be had on ebay.

goin into a shop where the techs have nice big Snap On toolboxes is also a good indicator if the shop pays well not too mention SO boxes hold their value

[Vulturej]

http://i725.photobucket.com/albums/ww257/vulturej_2009/Hammer.gif

[wantedabiggergarage]

SO boxes hold their value


Hence all the people looking for cheap used ones via CL.:spit::lol_hitti


OK, so maybe better then the stock market did last year, but not over their lifetime.

[tankboy_taylor]

Hence all the people looking for cheap used ones via CL.:spit::lol_hitti


OK, so maybe better then the stock market did last year, but not over their lifetime.

they hold there value more so than other companies is what I mean

[Snap on]

I have seen the guy come into the shop who had the old wore out craftsman tool box full of cheap tools, never had the tools needed for the more complex jobs, borrowed from everyone else break things and quietly put them back without telling you.

Sorry but I will take the guy who takes some pride in his tools, that same person will also take pride in their work as well. Also if they borrow something when they are done they return it clean and unbroken. More often then not they will also buy the tool they are borrowing because they know they need it.

The original poster is on a crusade against buying from Snap On, MAC, or Matco.

If he wants to build his set of tools from sears no one is stopping him, but to say you are an idiot to buy from Snap On, MAC or Matco is insane.

I have had the open end of Craftsman wrenches spread when putting torque on them with a tough fastener. I have never had that happen with a Snap On wrench.

That is the big difference in buying first tier tools vs buying second tier tools.

The choice is yours, buy what you want.

For me quality is more important then saving a few dollars on an inferior product.

Your statements about Snap On bits being junk is way out of line, I have Snap On Allen bits and Torx bits that are over 20 years old and have never broken or stripped one of them in fact they still look new save the contact area where the bits meet the fastener and original finish is rubbed away from the many years of use.

Try that with your cheap second tier bits.

I bet if you have a tech show up for a position in your shop and one is neat and has a nice set of tools and knows his job and you have a guy who shows up not as neat and has an old beat up box full of a hodge podge of tools but has the same knowledge you would hire the guy with the nice set of tools because it gives your shop a better image with your customers.

Believe it or not if your shop looks like a second tier shop you will get second tier customers, if your shop look professional you will go a long way in getting those first tier customers.

What is a first and second tier customer?

1. A first tier customer is one who has the ability to pay for that big repair when needed and will look for a shop that shows pride in its appearance that more often then not reflects in the quality and pride of the work that comes out of that shop.

2. A second tier customer is one who does not have the ability to pay for that big job and wants you to try to fix it on the cheap. They do not care about the look of the shop or the quality of the techs. That customer is a come back nightmare because they never have the money to fix the problem correctly. They always want you to just make it last with some little repair and when breaks next week they are back with their repair bill whining that their car is broke with the same problem and they just paid you to fix that problem.

There is a difference whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

To the young techs who visit here, you do not have to buy every Snap On, MAC or Matco tool on day one, but over time it will be to your advantage to build your tool inventory with first tier tools as you advance.

It may mean the difference between you getting that job you always wanted at some shop one day.

You can bet that really nice shop will take into account what tools you own and how you present them and take care of them as that reflects in the kind of job will do for that shop.

Two techs with equal knowledge one with a second tier box and tools and one with a first tier box and tools, I can tell you the one with the first tier box and tools that are kept nice and neat will get the nod over the guy with second tier tools 99.99% of the time.

[Snap on]

they hold there value more so than other companies is what I mean

Snap On tools hold an incredible amount of their value compared to other tool brands, face it if you want the best in holding value, you have no other choice then to go with Snap On.

MAC, Matco and Cornwell while great tools do not hold their value as well as Snap On.

Craftsman tools you will be lucky to get from 5% to 10% of their original value if you want to sell them one day. The other no name brands will do no better then

I have seen used Snap On tools go for new price and even some go for more then new price. You do not see that with other brands.

Most Snap On tools will bring in at least 70% of their original value.

[kythri]

I put a Snap-On ratchet on the railroad tracks, and the freight train crushed it, leaving me with a ratchet in pieces.

I put a Craftsman ratchet on the railroad tracks, and it was so tough, the freight train derailed.

Craftsman is clearly superior.

Edited to add: Before anyone accuses my experiment of being unscientific, after the Snap-On ratchet was destroyed, I hopped in my car, and drove really fast to the next railroad crossing 15 miles up, before the train got there, so that I could maintain a control for this experiment, and use the same train.

[kythri]

I have seen used Snap On tools go for new price and even some go for more then new price. You do not see that with other brands.

Yeah. Most other brands don't have that fringe of rabidly insane users/buyers.

[sk farmer]

funny thing snap on. i just had most of my snap on allen bits replaced by the snap on guy. had to leave them at my freinds place of bussiness for a week because i could not find him. my broken sk bit, walked in to my sk dealer and back out in about 2 minutes.wich was easier? you telling us that you have used a bit of any sort for 20 years of hard use and only had the finish worn a little. that is a boatload of bs. and by the way my freind who is a pro mechanic has those same snap on bits and he has them replaced on a regular basis for wear and breakage.

[Joelfke]

I put a Snap-On ratchet on the railroad tracks, and the freight train crushed it, leaving me with a ratchet in pieces.

I put a Craftsman ratchet on the railroad tracks, and it was so tough, the freight train derailed.

Craftsman is clearly superior.

Edited to add: Before anyone accuses my experiment of being unscientific, after the Snap-On ratchet was destroyed, I hopped in my car, and drove really fast to the next railroad crossing 15 miles up, before the train got there, so that I could maintain a control for this experiment, and use the same train.

so you derailed a train...to prove that craftsman is superior? haha nice.

I guess the local police didnt catch you :shocking:

[kythri]

so you derailed a train...to prove that craftsman is superior? haha nice.

I guess the local police didnt catch you :shocking:

They almost did, when I was retrieving the ratchet from the wreckage, but I lost them.

Oh, and I forgot to add - my local Sears warranty replaced that ratchet, because of the slight gouge that the train wheel put in it. No questions asked!

The local Snap-On dealer, on the other hand, refused to warranty the ratchet, claiming that I "abused" it, and there was no proof that I bought it from him. :mad:

[Joelfke]

They almost did, when I was retrieving the ratchet from the wreckage, but I lost them.

Oh, and I forgot to add - my local Sears warranty replaced that ratchet, because of the slight gouge that the train wheel put in it. No questions asked!

The local Snap-On dealer, on the other hand, refused to warranty the ratchet, claiming that I "abused" it, and there was no proof that I bought it from him. :mad:

haha how fast was the train going?

[krusty the clown]

jaysus..........i really wanted to add something important to this thread but i have an urge to go chase down a snap on truck and spend some money. i'll ask him if he has some snap on brand popcorn while i'm there.

[sk farmer]

snap on, what is this first and second tier bs. every customer better be first tier with you or you aren't doing you or them a service. i have had more s--t screwd up by some punk with shiny new box of so tools than i care for. i must be a second tier customer because i get pissed off spending hundreds of dollars or more for a repair only to have it fail immedately. i have never had a failure based on the brand of tool used to maintain it. only the idiot who broke it or failed to repair it correctly!

[kythri]

haha how fast was the train going?

According to my Hot Wheels Radar Gun (Can't get it from Snap-On, but you can get it from Amazon! http://www.amazon.com/Mattel-J2358-Hot-Wheels-Radar/dp/B000EHLB0M), it was going 3200mph on both passes.

[Snap on]

Boy you Snap On haters are really something, according to all you anti Snap On experts it is a wonder Snap On is still in business after those poor quality tools they sell and break the first time you use them.

You want to know the life of these bits, the Allen bits are 29 years old, the Torx bits are 26 years old. Never broken a single one of them.

You have to pay for quality, I learned that early on.

[kythri]

Boy you Snap On haters are really something, according to all you anti Snap On experts it is a wonder Snap On is still in business after those poor quality tools they sell and break the first time you use them.

Dude, where did ANYONE say that, in general, Snap-On is poor quality? The only comment in that regards is that their bits are poor quality, and there's been a LOT of people on this website that have made this claim (or similar claims, such as "there's a lot better bits than Snap-On").

You want to know the life of these bits, the Allen bits are 29 years old, the Torx bits are 26 years old. Never broken a single one of them.

Never used a single one of them, then?

You have to pay for quality, I learned that early on.

Yeah, you do. But with some, you have to pay more. :thumbup:

[steelespeed]

I say spend what you want, but after seeing some of these "tier 1" tools firsthand I would spend my hard earned and ever depreciating dollar a little more cautiously.

That being said, the whole argument of "if a customer sees a dirty box of dirty tools" and "techs better have snap-on boxes full of snap-on tools in mint condition" is a load of crap. first of all, most garages won't even allow the customer into the service area due to insurance policies. second of all, if a customer is so damn aware of what makes a good tool OR a good tech by looking at his tools, seems to me like they would most likely be able to do the repair themselves.

Please.

[e-tek]

What I hate more than this silly argument is the SO "Good-Guy" credit system.
When I was working in a shop I too started owing money. First to the SO truck, second to the food-wagon bitch!! I hated going to work after a while becuase I knew the SO trcuk would come and he'd ask me for a payment, plus throw a shiny new tool at me. It was always: "Pay me later"... They work it like a damn loan-shark. They know where you work, they know when it's payday, they know you owe them money....they keep extending you credit "cause you're a good guy".... When you are 18 or 19 years old it'seasy to get in over your head. Atone point I owed like $2500.00 (25 years ago!) and had to pay with my ENTIRE pay-cheque at one point. I couldn't pay it off with what I was making! I finally did pay it off when I went to the bank and got a "consolidation loan".
That's ONE thing I certainly don't miss!!!

[sk farmer]

snap on, with 10 posts you are not up to speed. i own snap on, mac, matco, proto, sk, cman, diamond, crescent, gearwrench, felo, etc. etc. not in any particular order. defending snap on to the death makes you look foolish. there is a whole world of excellant stuff out there. much of it made by someone other than snap on. if you have a dealer who replaces everthing for you. great! such is not the case for everyone out there. you will have a hard time pulling any bs on the guys on this sight. much of the info put forth by these member is unbiased and truthful. listen to them!!!!!!!!!! you will learn much!!!!!

[Snap on]

Sorry but the information in here is just as biased as any place else.

This is not the holy grail of truth about tools.

This thread is proof of that, what you have in here are mostly back yard mechanics who would never see a tool truck in the first place. That is not an attack on back yard mechanics by the way.

If you only use tools as a hobby now and then or a weekend project you can get away with second tier tools, when you depend on your tools every day then you need first tier tools.

I have worked with to many people who went the second tier tool route you and others on here are suggesting and those techs were always borrowing the other techs good tools, be they Snap On, MAC or Matco.

They would never buy the tools they needed and after a short while they get cut off on the borrowing and soon after they move on to another shop and the cycle repeats itself.

I did not start this thread that is telling people stay away from Snap On, MAC or Matco except for specialty tools which you can't get from second tier suppliers any way.

Are Snap On, MAC and Matco more expensive? Yes but they also come to you, you do not have to go to them.

When has Sears ever came to you? How about NAPA? True Value? Never, who would have thought.

There are different degrees of engineering that go into tools, you can bet the tools being made by Snap On, MAC and Matco have far more thought put into them then Craftsman or many other off brand tools. It is the little things that matter, like a Snap On wrench fitting in a place that a Craftsman would never fit.

It is not just melt some metal and pour it into a mold and splash some chrome on it and it is done so just stamp any name on it.

Snap On open ends are very sturdy and I have never had one spread, while Craftsman are not as sturdy and I have had Craftsman open ends spread, that does me no good when I have to get a job done and tool is not up to the job.

Home use Craftsman is fine, I have some at home, but when your paycheck is dependent on your tools, you need to spend the money and get the best, what is the big deal if you are using them to make a living you can write them off your income tax each year.

So the excuse of they are to expensive just went out the window with that argument.

[Moose-LandTran]

Is anyone else sick of the Snap-on bashing? Seems to me that every other thread is people crying about how Snap-on is too expensive/overpriced/not worth it/etc.

[Snap on]

snap on, with 10 posts you are not up to speed.

LOL lets see if I understand this, you joined in March of 2009 I joined in April of 2009 so that means you are a tool expert and I know nothing about tools?

I guess my 31 years in the business means nothing. My tool box is older than some of the people posting here, LOL.

My tool box is 24 years old (Yep a Snap On) and I have tools that are 31 years old and few that are older then that (Mostly Snap On, some MAC, Matco, Cornwell and even SK and gear wrench).

I passed down a set of SK raised panel wrenches to my son in law that I bought 31 years ago. I replaced then with a set of SK Super Krome wrenches to along with my multiple sets of Snap On wrenches.

I have been through the breaking of Craftsman tools, learned my lesson on tool quality for professional use.

[kythri]

http://www.kythri.net/pictures/Kool-Aid.jpg

DRINK UP, BOYS!

[kythri]

Is anyone else sick of the Snap-on bashing? Seems to me that every other thread is people crying about how Snap-on is too expensive/overpriced/not worth it/etc.

And the other threads are Snap-On fanboys (who join daily, it seems, and can't even come up with an original nick other than the brand they live, breathe, drool and die over) who continually tout Snap-On as the magic tool that fixes cars with no user assistance, saves babies from burning buildings, AND STILL CUTS THROUGH A TOMATO LIKE IT WAS BUTTER!!! BUY NOW FOR ONLY $9999.99!!

[Moose-LandTran]

http://www.kythri.net/pictures/Kool-Aid.jpg

DRINK UP, BOYS!

Tell me, have you ever made a useful contribution? I'm really struggling to see why you waste your time on here, you strike me as a waste of time/space/oxygen.

[Snap on]

And the other threads are Snap-On fanboys (who join daily, it seems, and can't even come up with an original nick other than the brand they live, breathe, drool and die over) who continually tout Snap-On as the magic tool that fixes cars with no user assistance, saves babies from burning buildings, AND STILL CUTS THROUGH A TOMATO LIKE IT WAS BUTTER!!! BUY NOW FOR ONLY $9999.99!!

Let me guess you own Craftsman and you can't see any difference between Craftsman and Snap On?

[kythri]

Tell me, have you ever made a useful contribution? I'm really struggling to see why you waste your time on here, you strike me as a waste of time/space/oxygen.

Right back at you, big boy.

This thread wasn't bashing Snap-On, until the Snap-On Defense Brigade mobilized to come trash it.

[Moose-LandTran]

Right back at you, big boy.

This thread wasn't bashing Snap-On, until the Snap-On Defense Brigade mobilized to come trash it.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/chrismca/smooch.gif

[krusty the clown]

well, i just got back from meeting the snap on guy. sadly he didn't have any SO brand popcorn or kool aid, but............i did buy a pair of snap on socks for $99.95 and a comforter for my bed $219.95. i tried to buy a snap on weed eater but they were back ordered.......

jeez guy's enough already. this is worse than ford/chevy.........

i'll keep buying snap on........you buy what you want. i won't tell you you are stupid, just don't tell me i am. hell.......if you want a set of metrinch and a gator grip it's OK by me.

[kythri]

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/chrismca/smooch.gif

I'll try to express myself more monosyllabically in the future, so that you can keep up.

[Snap on]

well, i just got back from meeting the snap on guy. sadly he didn't have any SO brand popcorn or kool aid, but............i did buy a pair of snap on socks for $99.95 and a comforter for my bed $219.95. i tried to buy a snap on weed eater but they were back ordered.......

jeez guy's enough already. this is worse than ford/chevy.........

i'll keep buying snap on........you buy what you want. i won't tell you you are stupid, just don't tell me i am. hell.......if you want a set of metrinch and a gator grip it's OK by me.

Have you seen the Snap On Hand Towles yet? Wow, they are only 149.99 each, but man the Snap On logo makes it dry your hands so much better.
:bounce::beer:

[bgott]

http://houston.craigslist.org/tls/1115264792.html

Not mine.

For that price they ought to refill themselves with your favorite booze.:lol_hitti

[Joelfke]

snap on, with 10 posts you are not up to speed. i own snap on, mac, matco, proto, sk, cman, diamond, crescent, gearwrench, felo, etc. etc. not in any particular order. defending snap on to the death makes you look foolish. there is a whole world of excellant stuff out there. much of it made by someone other than snap on. if you have a dealer who replaces everthing for you. great! such is not the case for everyone out there. you will have a hard time pulling any bs on the guys on this sight. much of the info put forth by these member is unbiased and truthful. listen to them!!!!!!!!!! you will learn much!!!!!

agreed. my very few posts have gotten me loads of information on new tool companies as well as dealing with the ones im familiar with...these people know their s**t :thumbup:

[sk farmer]

just got off the phone. my mechanic just spent 600 dollars for me on parts i didn't need. now he says he has to split the tractor to fix something else.he works in a tier one shop with tier one tools. i'm a po'd second tier customer. glad he has a big box of so quality to get the job done right. i should have insisted on the old guy in the corner with the mismatched tool chest and tools. oh by the way this second tier customer usually pays on the spot. maybe if i pay on credit i will get better service.

[sk farmer]

at 10 posts i did not know jack s--t. at 269 posts i still don't know much. but you have much to learn about this sight and these people. i also have some 30 plus year old tools. so what? if you know so much let me see that 30 plus year old gear wrench you claim to have. good luck with that!!!!

[Skyline]

Snap On tools hold an incredible amount of their value compared to other tool brands, face it if you want the best in holding value, you have no other choice then to go with Snap On.

MAC, Matco and Cornwell while great tools do not hold their value as well as Snap On.

Craftsman tools you will be lucky to get from 5% to 10% of their original value if you want to sell them one day. The other no name brands will do no better then

I have seen used Snap On tools go for new price and even some go for more then new price. You do not see that with other brands.

Most Snap On tools will bring in at least 70% of their original value.

I agree that Snap-on and other Tool truck brands hold their value well, but you are dreaming if you think they will be worth 70%. Take it from me, I sell at least 100 high end tools a month on eBay, and if you do the listings yourself, and know what you're doing, you might net between 35% to 50% (depending on condition) for used Snap-on tools. Sure, there are occasional exceptions, (green dead blow hammers come to mind,) but if you had to sell your whole working collection, (not talking special collectors items here), and the tools were well used, (well cared for but not 100% pristine), you'd be lucky to get half of your 70% estimate. If you what to sell as a complete collection in one shot, count on about 10% to 15% less. And another 10% less for the Snap-on toolboxes.

I do agree with the figure quoted for Craftsman; it has almost no resale value used. I must generally sell Craftsman stuff in bulk lots.

Also, for you fans of MAC, Matco, and Cornwell, I am sorry to say that they do not hold their value as well as Snap-on. Perhaps they sell at about 10% less (as a percentage of new price as compared to S-O). I think this is due to S-O's larger market share which means many more buyers and sellers on eBay. The German tools also do quite well on eBay.

[autoace]

All customers are equal, and deserve the same quality/value as any other. I will always hire the mechanic with the best ability and experience, and so will all other shops. No one cares what we use, provided the job is 100%

The major point of this thread was to save some young mechanics some money. I clearly stated specialty tools and quality measurement tools are needed, and that is where a tech should spend his money.

New member Snap-on has 31 years experience, so you are about 49 years old? I doubt it. You have alot to learn about the business and how customers should be classified, according to your posts.

As a former Snap-on advocate, I understand your brand passion, but knowledge, ability, and honesty will make one a great mechanic, not the brand they choose for tools. Some of you miss the point with your Snap-on euphoria.

[autoace]

Tell me, have you ever made a useful contribution? I'm really struggling to see why you waste your time on here, you strike me as a waste of time/space/oxygen.

Now Moose that wasn't nice, a bit too personal over tools, wouldn't you say?:confused:

[Uncle Buck]

Jeez what a thread! I counld not even muster the strength to read all the posts. This topic is too boring for me. I have been in too many of these pissers since 2005, you guys can have it!

[Snap on]

at 10 posts i did not know jack s--t. at 269 posts i still don't know much. but you have much to learn about this sight and these people. i also have some 30 plus year old tools. so what? if you know so much let me see that 30 plus year old gear wrench you claim to have. good luck with that!!!!


I never said I had 30 year old gear wrenches. The tools I own that are 30 plus years old I have owned them that long, sorry to disappoint you but I am no new guy buying tools for the first time.


As for your tractor story, if this shop is screwing you why are not down there challenging them if you know they just did you wrong?

You can own all the second tier tools you want, I don't really care, but for you and your buddies to start threads bashing Snap On, MAC and Matco is very juvenile at best.

To say a dime store tool is as good as a Snap On is not being honest as well.

Face it you don't want to spend the money on Snap On, MAC or Matco, OK, why do you have to bash those that do, trying to convince them that they are making a mistake.

There are a lot things that go into the design and manufacture of a tool, those selling at low ball prices have skimped somewhere along the line.

I would not give you ten cents for a Kobalt wrench today.

They took a step backwards when they dropped their contract they had with Snap On and it shows in the reduced quality of the wrenches. They don't look good nor do they feel good.

Yes I know the same company that makes Matco wrenches makes the Kobalt and Craftsman wrenches, however they are all made to different specs.

I think some of you are just trying to justify your choice of buying second tier tools and want someone to tell you its alright.

Well it is alright, you can buy second tier tools and for the light user of tools they will last you a life time and when they do break you can drive down to the store you bought them from and get them replaced.

Me I will stick with the big three they have served far better then my second tier tools did many years ago when I started. In fact I have zero craftsman in my work box.

You can justify all you want your decision to by second tier tools, I don't need any justification for buying first tier tools from the big three, I am assured they will stand behind their product and the few times I have broke a Snap On or MAC tool they were fixed, I have not broken any Matco tools but I don't own that many Matco tools.

I threw away the broken Craftsman stuff because I did not want to drive to sears. Each broken Craftsman tool has been replaced with a tool from Snap On or MAC and works fine to this day. Thankfully that has been years ago.

No one who owns Snap On, MAC or Matco has tried to get you to stop buying your second tier tools, it seems it is you second tier tool guys who are trying to convince everyone that buying Snap On, MAC or Matco is a waste of money.

[Snap on]

New member Snap-on has 31 years experience, so you are about 49 years old? I doubt it. You have alot to learn about the business and how customers should be classified, according to your posts.

I am 48 years old, I will be 49 this year, I started out working at a Dodge dealer, moved on to servicing trucks, got tired of the bull work working on trucks and went back to dealerships.

But you seem to think you know more about me then I do.

[walrus]

I wonder what tool one would pick if they absolutely had to get a nut or a bolt off. Lets say you had a 5/16 nut or bolt that was rusted heavily. You have to get it loose or die. All you get is an open end wrench!. What brand are you picking??

[HandyManny]

I fully agree Autoace.:thumbup: After several years of wrenching and tool using my assesment has been the same as yours, especially the part about learning how to do the job 100% correct. I'm sure glad someone here has the balls to just come out and say it. Good advice!!

[sk farmer]

i am not bashing any ones tools. if you read, i own those brands and like them. you seem to be bashing nearly every other brand. i will have a talk with my dealer, i am also in daily contact with the service manager. i don't see how chewing some a-s at this time will get my tractor fixed sooner, better or cheaper at this point. do you perform better after an a-s chewing? i will calmly deal with these issues after a complete and proper repair is made. lastly sir, you lumped gear wrench in with your list of long owned tools, not me

[Moose-LandTran]

Now Moose that wasn't nice, a bit too personal over tools, wouldn't you say?:confused:

Well, actually no. It was based on all his posts i've read. (in this thread + others.)

Anyway, i'll go look after my nephew and leave y'all to decide the future of Snap-on's small GJ-based customer group.

[Hawk321]

Give a pro tech a set of hazet...then compare the time with using a set of Snap-On....there are a difference.

Try to work with a flare nut wrench from Hazet or Snap-On...SO will win.
Spend yout money in good tools from different brands, not only in one brand!

[Bo Heck]

I wonder what tool one would pick if they absolutely had to get a nut or a bolt off. Lets say you had a 5/16 nut or bolt that was rusted heavily. You have to get it loose or die. All you get is an open end wrench!. What brand are you picking??

Where do you work???

I'm sorry, this thread is just too funny to take seriously after the first few posts, Autoace is giving some excellent advice to his target audience, new mechanics, and some guys are getting their panties in a wad that remind me of Barney Frank's responses when he feels he's been attacked.

[Snap on]

I wonder what tool one would pick if they absolutely had to get a nut or a bolt off. Lets say you had a 5/16 nut or bolt that was rusted heavily. You have to get it loose or die. All you get is an open end wrench!. What brand are you picking??

I would choose Snap On first, MAC second, I would not even try with my SK.

My home Craftsman would stay right at home.

[Snap on]

Where do you work???

I'm sorry, this thread is just too funny to take seriously after the first few posts, Autoace is giving some excellent advice to his target audience, new mechanics, and some guys are getting their panties in a wad that remind me of Barney Frank's responses when he feels he's been attacked.

Is it really good advice or is it a cheap way to start out that will end up costing more in the long run?

[Snap on]

Give a pro tech a set of hazet...then compare the time with using a set of Snap-On....there are a difference.

Try to work with a flare nut wrench from Hazet or Snap-On...SO will win.
Spend yout money in good tools from different brands, not only in one brand!

Now this is good advice, I have Snap On, MAC, Matco and Cornwell in my box, oh yeah I also has two sets of SK wrenches one in SAE and one in Metric.

I have a set of Craftsman flair nut wrenches at home, they do not compare to my Snap On or MAC flair nut wrenches.

I am looking for a set of MAC metric flair nut wrenches for my home box now, I will pick them up on ebay as they are for home use.

The Craftsman flair nut wrenches I will hand down to my son in-law.

[walrus]

Where do you work???

What difference does that make?. I think my point is pretty obvious, their is a difference in tools.

BTW I understand Autoace's point, tools don't make the man:bounce:

Its obvious that a good mechanic will do better work with crap tools than a moron with Snap on tools.

[Bo Heck]

Is it really good advice or is it a cheap way to start out that will end up costing more in the long run?

It's a way to keep more hard earned money in the new guys pocket. There is a reason there are two other threads titled "tools you would only buy from snap on" and "tools you would never buy from snap on." These are also aimed at helping these guys save money.

You are the Barney Frank character I was talking about though. Too funny.


What difference does that make?. I think my point is pretty obvious, their is a difference in tools.

BTW I understand Autoace's point, tools don't make the man:bounce:

Its obvious that a good mechanic will do better work with crap tools than a moron with Snap on tools.

No one is going to die if they don't get a bolt or nut loose. If you're going to create a scenario and want credibility to prove your point, just state the obvious situation, time is money, if a Snap-on wrench allows you to do more jobs in a day, thus getting paid more, would you choose brand X or Snap On?

Now, there are tons of quality regular combination wrenches out there that will do the same exact job as a Snap On wrench. Tools like that, you can save lot of money buying another brand wrench. But if you do your homework on a site like this and discover that Snap On line wrenches are really the only way to go if you're in the market for line wrenches, well, by all means, spend the money.

[Rolling_Thunder]

I agree!

Last summer I had a Craftsman Mechanic in My garage to do some warranty work to my Lawn Tractor! He looked around the garage and then said: Thank you for putting my son through College! Im a Craftsman Freak!!

[nissan_crawler]

Let me guess you own Craftsman and you can't see any difference between Craftsman and Snap On?

I own both, and I'll claim that. I have some Snap-on combo's, and C-Pro combo's. They both do the same job equally. In fact, if you lay my C-Pro on top of the Snap-On, the open ends are the same size, the beams are the same size, the length is the same, the only difference is the box end is slightly thicker on the the Craftsmans, which may be a good thing, since I've broken a snap-on box end, and the craftsman pulled the rest of the bolts out.

I wonder what tool one would pick if they absolutely had to get a nut or a bolt off. Lets say you had a 5/16 nut or bolt that was rusted heavily. You have to get it loose or die. All you get is an open end wrench!. What brand are you picking??

Whichever was closest. They both spread equally. Besides, an open end isn't the proper application at that point, anyway.

[jay50]

29973


My feelings....

[Moose-LandTran]

29973


My feelings....


[Insert Empathy Here]

[sammerdog]

I've got some Snap On stuff, I've got some Craftsman stuff (no Pro-Line though), I've got some Master Mechanic stuff, I've got some Pittsburg stuff, I've got some Taiwaneese stuff.

It all busts if you work it hard enough.

Bottom line? No one perfect tool manufacturer. If there was, everyone else would be out of business.

[walrus]

Whichever was closest. They both spread equally. Besides, an open end isn't the proper application at that point, anyway.

I realize its not the right tool and spreading hasn't been the same in my experience but all my Craftsman stuff is old raised panels, maybe thats the difference.?

[MarkH]

Gee I have not had to make popcorn for some time.

The good thing is most are talking about decent quality tools. The choice is yours which way to go.

Three things I have learned from where I started. I had mentors who bought junk. It really slowed us down. I had mentors who did not have enough tools and enough specialty items so we were always improvising. Shot the hell out of our time to fix things. I had mentors who were not properly educated, the first thing I realized since I spent time in school learning. That made me much faster.

Putting it all together, I can do things beyond what I ever thought I could at speeds that beat the heck out of a younger me. It is based on fixing all three of those things my mentors did not have. 1. Having the appropriate education and the ability to research and learn from others as well as being able to read a manual. 2. Having the right tools for the job. 3. Having tools that work.

You have to have all three along with a little get up and do it. How you get those three things will be different for all of us. You do have control over all three.

From a person with just about every decent brand in a tool box somewhere. Truck tools are there but a minority of the volume. All bought for a reason. Most of the crap was pitched in a manner similar to a cow pie throwing contest.

[autoace]

I am 48 years old, I will be 49 this year, I started out working at a Dodge dealer, moved on to servicing trucks, got tired of the bull work working on trucks and went back to dealerships.

But you seem to think you know more about me then I do.

I only know what you write in your posts:bounce:

I can also see, you won't let something lie, that was intended for young guys in a tough economy, that's who this thread was for, not for veterans of the trade that already invested in their tools.

See there have been alot of threads with questions from new guys asking about Cman pro vs. Matco, and Snap-on vs.whatever...but they didn't have the money really. If you re-read the introduction post, I said start with Cman and add truck tools carefully, that one likes, as they can afford.

Keep on bitching if you like, spend more time reading what the real point was, you will have less to write.

[DHS]

I would love too own all Snap On ... but I know that there is a lot of cheaper options that are still high quality. With Snap On you are paying a lot for the name and then some more for the the quality. Just my $.02

I'm young what the hell do I know. :thumbup:

[krusty the clown]

ok........so it's settled now? :lol_hitti


:deadhorse:drink::locked::spit:

[Paladin]

Yeah, I think autoace was well intentioned and this thread just spiraled into a SO vs. everyone else, as usual. Personally, if you can afford SO and want it, by all means, it is YOUR money! Buy what you like. If I could afford it, there would be a lot more SO in my box, but I can't so there is a pretty limited selection of SO in there. The OP was just trying to help out the young techs by passing on some hard learned advice. Nothing wrong with that. :thumbup:

[south pier garage]

tool haiku


i've got some snap on

i've got some craftsman

i've got some cornwall

i've got some esskay

i've got wright

and i've got hazet

but the one i reach for most of all

is my 10" visegrip

[rhandwor]

One thing I've noticed is SO chrome has a big eye appeal and is more likely to be picked up when your not looking. You also have to be more alert if it is borrowed don't forget who you lent it to.

[GYOGI65]

Boy you Snap On haters are really something, according to all you anti Snap On experts it is a wonder Snap On is still in business after those poor quality tools they sell and break the first time you use them.

You want to know the life of these bits, the Allen bits are 29 years old, the Torx bits are 26 years old. Never broken a single one of them.

You have to pay for quality, I learned that early on.

I have had snap on bits break and send me to the ER to get a hand full of stitches to brittle a good mechanic knows when you can get by with craftsman or another similar brand or need a snap on special tool last snap on i bought was long 9/16 buy the whole set from sears on sale for 30 bucks they both have their place. work in a concrete plant and you will find out your best friend is the torch ,also wont modify a snap on but will cut up cheap wrenches to make special tool keep a set just for that reason last one cut up was 18 mm to put a 3 foot pipe on 22 dollar set from advanced sae and metric

[autoace]

Yeah, I think autoace was well intentioned and this thread just spiraled into a SO vs. everyone else, as usual. Personally, if you can afford SO and want it, by all means, it is YOUR money! Buy what you like. If I could afford it, there would be a lot more SO in my box, but I can't so there is a pretty limited selection of SO in there. The OP was just trying to help out the young techs by passing on some hard learned advice. Nothing wrong with that. :thumbup:

It isn't always easy, I just got off the Cornwell truck at 7 p.m.. I saw alot of things I would like to have, that I don't really need, so I passed on them, made my payment, and remembered I need a new welder and an EVAP smoker, so I need to pay down tech credit for those bigger things. All that nice chrome and what have you, can tempt one to over spend.:lol_hitti

[Uncle Buck]

tool haiku


i've got some snap on

i've got some craftsman

i've got some cornwall

i've got some esskay

i've got wright

and i've got hazet

but the one i reach for most of all

is my 10" visegrip

That is rich! So what are you punishing with that! :lol_hitti

[GYOGI65]

What difference does that make?. I think my point is pretty obvious, their is a difference in tools.

BTW I understand Autoace's point, tools don't make the man:bounce:

Its obvious that a good mechanic will do better work with crap tools than a moron with Snap on tools.

i love the guy with the 9 grand snap on box and nothing but a little bit of junk inside and not enough to fill half the drawers i started with a parts store box with mostly snap on then learned others work resale in upstate ny on snap on is probablt 25 to 30 percent about like my 401k but i plan on dieing with my tools sent my first set of wrenches with my father after about of cancer had tools in his coffinthey were 25 year old par-x that were well used and abused they were my graduation present

[voidifused]

Tell me, have you ever made a useful contribution? I'm really struggling to see why you waste your time on here, you strike me as a waste of time/space/oxygen.

I would have to say, the only thing i have learned from this thread is somthing i already know. How much of a troll kythri is.

Other then that, another thread of bashing and bull shit that taught nothing about what people should buy/want for tools other then not ask about it here:twak:

[GYOGI65]

Boy you Snap On haters are really something, according to all you anti Snap On experts it is a wonder Snap On is still in business after those poor quality tools they sell and break the first time you use them.

You want to know the life of these bits, the Allen bits are 29 years old, the Torx bits are 26 years old. Never broken a single one of them.

You have to pay for quality, I learned that early on.

I have had snap on bits break and send me to the ER to get a hand full of stitches to brittle a good mechanic knows when you can get by with craftsman or another similar brand or need a snap on special tool last snap on i bought was long 9/16 buy the whole set from sears on sale for 30 bucks they both have their place. work in a concrete plant and you will find out your best friend is the torch ,also wont modify a snap on but will cut up cheap wrenches to make special tool keep a set just for that reason last one cut up was 18 mm to put a 3 foot pipe on 22 dollar set from advanced sae and metric

[Vulturej]

I have had snap on bits break and send me to the ER to get a hand full of stitches to brittle a good mechanic knows when you can get by with craftsman or another similar brand or need a snap on special tool last snap on i bought was long 9/16 buy the whole set from sears on sale for 30 bucks they both have their place. work in a concrete plant and you will find out your best friend is the torch ,also wont modify a snap on but will cut up cheap wrenches to make special tool keep a set just for that reason last one cut up was 18 mm to put a 3 foot pipe on 22 dollar set from advanced sae and metric

I have had snap on bits break and send me to the ER to get a hand full of stitches to brittle a good mechanic knows when you can get by with craftsman or another similar brand or need a snap on special tool last snap on i bought was long 9/16 buy the whole set from sears on sale for 30 bucks they both have their place. work in a concrete plant and you will find out your best friend is the torch ,also wont modify a snap on but will cut up cheap wrenches to make special tool keep a set just for that reason last one cut up was 18 mm to put a 3 foot pipe on 22 dollar set from advanced sae and metric

Do we have a stuttering problem? This thread was to express some ones opinion and give advice, not to bash one tool company or another.
:deadhorse

[autoace]

I would have to say, the only thing i have learned from this thread is somthing i already know. How much of a troll kythri is.

Other then that, another thread of bashing and bull shit that taught nothing about what people should buy/want for tools other then not ask about it here:twak:

Also,

http://enigma.dune.net/~eric/Do-not-feed-the-troll.PNG

What is amazing is how one or two members can ruin a well meaning thread. A forum is like a magazine in some ways, every topic is not everyones cup of tea, so pass over what doesn't suit you, why ruin it for the members who might benefit from it? Pictures of trolls and what have you, most people who call troll, are exactly that, with few exceptions. Good thing I'm not a moderator, this board needs some trash taken out! That is it for me and type talking to some of you acting up on this thread. I have a fellow member who needs help fixing his car, so I will PM him instead of wasting my time with some of you green ingrates. At least then something is being accomplished,LATER

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

I put a Snap-On ratchet on the railroad tracks, and the freight train crushed it, leaving me with a ratchet in pieces.

I put a Craftsman ratchet on the railroad tracks, and it was so tough, the freight train derailed.

Craftsman is clearly superior.

Edited to add: Before anyone accuses my experiment of being unscientific, after the Snap-On ratchet was destroyed, I hopped in my car, and drove really fast to the next railroad crossing 15 miles up, before the train got there, so that I could maintain a control for this experiment, and use the same train.

So you're a psychopath who trys to derail trains so you can try and prove a point about snap on?! :headscrat

Nobody is going to accuse you of being unscientific....a friggin nutjob, yeah...unscientific...nope.



Oh, and I forgot to add - my local Sears warranty replaced that ratchet, because of the slight gouge that the train wheel put in it. No questions asked!

The local Snap-On dealer, on the other hand, refused to warranty the ratchet, claiming that I "abused" it, and there was no proof that I bought it from him. :mad:

Of course you abused it you moron...you let it get run over by a train! :wtf:

[Snap on]

Maybe if you had not bashed Snap On by name in your first post and tool truck tools as a follow up, your thread may have gone a little different.

I can cut and past the two bashes you made about Snap On if you like but they are in your first post about item number 6 or 7 that you had numbered.

I disagree with you about someone making their living with tools. You want to ban me go ahead, it won't end my life.

You do realize that more suspect mechanics are running around with no name tools then there are suspect mechanics with top brand tools right?

In my opinion you gave some bad advice to the younger guys.

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

In my opinion you gave some bad advice to the younger guys.


Autoace gave sound, reasonable, advice...that being, don't feel like you need to get thousands of dollars in debt to start your wrenching career by buying all the big name brand expensive tools, esp. Snap on. And you didn't like it.

You joined here yesterday, have made a lot of assumptions about the membership of this board...many of which aren't true, are a total Snap on homer, and we're supposed to give what you have to say more weight than what Autoace, who's been on here a helluva lot longer and has a track record of contributions to the board, has to say?

I'll think I'll listen to Autoace. He makes a lot more sense.

[-B-]

Back on topic will reiterate what I stated earlier for the education on new pros to the ranks of wrenching.
Do not become a brand sheep for no on tool company makes all the perfect tools ( in use or for you)

Do not buy a tool and expect to replace it later with a better one/ brand.

Replacing tool that have failed you with the same ones is not a wise decision find a better one.

Not all tools brake from misuse some break from inferior design / engineering, or out of the mechanics control. ( IE over torqued fasteners from the factory)

Tools in my work I will not stand for 12pt sockets and coarse tooth ratchets .

[MarkH]

Time to lighten up. We all do different work and have different requirements.

It goes like this the statement on the Miller thread about his opinion of adjustables. In his shop for the work he did at that time, I can understand it. In my work do I like them no, can I live without them, no. A big field cultivator just got fixed today with a 24 inch one. No time to go back and get a 3/4 or 1 socket set at the shop 40 miles away. We thought we were going to get a rain break. So advice from one of the great ones did not fit.

So we have our likes and as stubborn ole boys we may never convince each other. So unless it is time for more popcorn. Do a search for that time to do what we have done since then. Agree we are going to disagree and let each person take away their own opinion. Just do not buy tool shaped objects, get enough to do the job, learn how to do your job.

[krusty the clown]

Autoace gave sound, reasonable, advice...that being, don't feel like you need to get thousands of dollars in debt to start your wrenching career by buying all the big name brand expensive tools, esp. Snap on. And you didn't like it.

You joined here yesterday, have made a lot of assumptions about the membership of this board...many of which aren't true, are a total Snap on homer, and we're supposed to give what you have to say more weight than what Autoace, who's been on here a helluva lot longer and has a track record of contributions to the board, has to say?

I'll think I'll listen to Autoace. He makes a lot more sense.

both arguments have merit, and neither is wrong..........


it's all a matter of personal choice. i have made mine as well as everyone involved. as far as guidance to younger tech? the messages have been lost by the tone of the post's.

[Merkava_4]

I just hope autoace doesn't have do use raised panel Craftsman ratchets everyday....that would really suck. :(

[Bo Heck]

One thing I've noticed is SO chrome has a big eye appeal....



I would not give you ten cents for a Kobalt wrench today.

They took a step backwards when they dropped their contract they had with Snap On and it shows in the reduced quality of the wrenches. They don't look good nor do they feel good.


Case and point, a Kobalt wrench will get a bolt off but it doesn't "look good" doing it. "Feel" is up to the end user, I've seen folks on here who say they don't like the feel of SO wrenches, big deal. There are tons of wrenches to choose from based on feel and that still do the same job just as well.


Yes I know the same company that makes Matco wrenches makes the Kobalt and Craftsman wrenches, however they are all made to different specs.
There is absolutely no proof of this, either way.


I think some of you are just trying to justify your choice of buying second tier tools and want someone to tell you its alright.

Well it is alright, you can buy second tier tools and for the light user of tools they will last you a life time and when they do break you can drive down to the store you bought them from and get them replaced.

Me I will stick with the big three they have served far better then my second tier tools did many years ago when I started. In fact I have zero craftsman in my work box.

You've officially turned this thread into your own SO vs Craftsman fued. There are numerous alternatives better than Craftsman, and perform the same, some even better, and cheaper than SO. It seems you've forgotten there is a very broad market for professional tools.


You can justify all you want your decision to by second tier tools, I don't need any justification for buying first tier tools from the big three, I am assured they will stand behind their product and the few times I have broke a Snap On or MAC tool they were fixed, I have not broken any Matco tools but I don't own that many Matco tools.

There are plenty of accounts on this board of bad warranty experiences with SO and tool truck brands. It's all about the individual you're dealing with.


I threw away the broken Craftsman stuff because I did not want to drive to sears. Each broken Craftsman tool has been replaced with a tool from Snap On or MAC and works fine to this day. Thankfully that has been years ago.

No one who owns Snap On, MAC or Matco has tried to get you to stop buying your second tier tools, it seems it is you second tier tool guys who are trying to convince everyone that buying Snap On, MAC or Matco is a waste of money.

The fact that you adamantly object to the OP proves that you disapprove of others buying "second tier" tools and the fact that you feel compelled, and did, make a post stating your objection is an effort to disallow new mechanics from buying "second tier" tools. If these guys that own and utilize "second tier" tools are endorsing them, with experience using truck tools, I'll listen to their experience and advice. I filter out folks who say that Craftsman is all you'll ever need, and also the Snap On fanatics who will only buy Snap On toothpicks because they work so well they don't even to brush their teeth anymore. Autoace gave some advice that was right in the middle. Snap On makes some great tools, they make some crappy tools, they some pretty tools and that's what you'll pay for. Some of them are worth it, like Autoace said, but to a new mechanic, lots of their basic hand tools are not worth going into debt for.

[autoace]

I just hope autoace doesn't have do use raised panel Craftsman ratchets everyday....that would really suck. :(

:lol_hitti I have Proto ratchets, and I like the RHFT Cman ratchets, and the next gens:headscrat go figure, for wrenches Craftsman pros for now, and I use alot of Gearwrench ratcheting wrenches....I passed on the Cornwell etc...ratcheting wrenches because they are all Taiwan sourced,just like the GW, but alot more money for the same thing, and Advanced Auto has an easy warranty for them, I have not needed it yet.

I have some SAE Cman raised panels, they are tough, but...well they are raised panels:lol_hitti

I will get a set of Cornwell long patterns some day, but I don't really NEED them.

talk to you later:beer:

[The Muffin Man]

Is anyone else sick of the Snap-on bashing? Seems to me that every other thread is people crying about how Snap-on is too expensive/overpriced/not worth it/etc.

Have you been living under a rock?

Didn't you know the craze has gone past bashing China and Taiwan!

I only can only wonder what it will be like when they've run out of brands to gripe :headscrat.




Hey Krusty, I think we need a Snap-On popcorn maker instead.

[kythri]

So you're a psychopath who trys to derail trains so you can try and prove a point about snap on?! :headscrat

Nobody is going to accuse you of being unscientific....a friggin nutjob, yeah...unscientific...nope.




Of course you abused it you moron...you let it get run over by a train! :wtf:


If _ANYONE_ believed that, then they need to seriously get their head examined.

As far as being a "troll", the Snap-On fanboys jumped into this thread and started going nuts well before I made a facetious post about the freight train...

If I'm a troll, 90% of the people posting in this thread are trolls as well. autoace started a legitimate, decent post, and YOU folks ruined it, not me.

Deny it all you want, but the pro-Snap-On crowd around here jumps all over posts that dare to say anything but praise about Snap-On, well more than I or anyone has posted in defense of other brands.

[v8garage]

Boy you Snap On haters are really something, according to all you anti Snap On experts it is a wonder Snap On is still in business after those poor quality tools they sell and break the first time you use them.

You want to know the life of these bits, the Allen bits are 29 years old, the Torx bits are 26 years old. Never broken a single one of them.

You have to pay for quality, I learned that early on.

I don't think it is the Snap On tools they hate so much as the condescending attitude of the Snap On worshipers. You come to this board with the preconceived notion that your tools are "first tier" and everyone elses is crap, what kind of reaction did you expect? :confused:

[CAT_serviceman927]

7 pages? Really?........:wtf::headscrat



I try to only post when I feel I have something to contribute or want to pay someone a compliment, but this is crazy. Autoace seemed to be just looking out for any new members or onlookers who might not be familiar with purchasing tools as a professional. Maybe he shouldn't have picked on one brand so much as most of the truck brands are similarly priced and marked up.He even basically said, hey if you like SO, that's cool.

Buy the tools you can afford, use them properly, get the job done right the first time, and go on to the next. Isn't that the name of the game?

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

If _ANYONE_ believed that, then they need to seriously get their head examined.

The derailment...no, didn't believe that. But I could believe you'd put a snap on ratchet on the train tracks given how much you hate Snap On. And I could also believe you'd try and take the pieces back to the dealer, then bitch when he wouldn't warranty it.



As far as being a "troll", the Snap-On fanboys jumped into this thread and started going nuts well before I made a facetious post about the freight train...

If I'm a troll, 90% of the people posting in this thread are trolls as well. autoace started a legitimate, decent post, and YOU folks ruined it, not me.

Deny it all you want, but the pro-Snap-On crowd around here jumps all over posts that dare to say anything but praise about Snap-On, well more than I or anyone has posted in defense of other brands.

And just as bad as the Snap on fanboys, are the ones like you who hate Snap on with a passion and go out of your way to denigrate them every chance you get.

But, going pack to our thread last week...I'm sure you don't have anything against Snap on. :spit:

[Merkava_4]

What gets me, is some of these guys will come on here and say there's no difference between a Craftsman wrench and a Snap-on wrench, when they may turn a wrench 1 or 2 times a year. :cool:

[Joelfke]

What gets me, is some of these guys will come on here and say there's no difference between a Craftsman wrench and a Snap-on wrench, when they may turn a wrench 1 or 2 times a year. :cool:

theres a difference....however i have no problem using a snapon ratchet with CM sockets. its much more cost effective in this economy :)

[krooser]

Do you really need to drive a Posche Boxter when a '67 Ford will get you there? Why live in a $200,000 house when a mobile home will keep the rain off of your head? Why marry Jessica Simpson when Rosie O'Donnell can keep you warm at night?

It's about choices... this is America. Enjoy it while you still can.

[Merkava_4]

theres a difference....however i have no problem using a snapon ratchet with CM sockets. its much more cost effective in this economy :)

I could live with using a Craftsman socket if I had too, but I sure as hell don't want to use a Craftsman ratchet; the icky factor is off the chart. :shocking:

[Joelfke]

Do you really need to drive a Posche Boxter when a '67 Ford will get you there? Why live in a $200,0)0 house when a mobile home will keep the rain off of your head? Why marry Jessica Simpson when Rosie O'Donnell can keep you warm at night?

It's about choices... this is America. Enjoy it while you still can.

haha i would prefer the 67 ford over the boxter any day actually :) i love classics

[Joelfke]

I could live with using a Craftsman socket if I had too, but I sure as hell don't want to use a Craftsman ratchet; the icky factor is off the chart. :shocking:

yea i had used craftsman ratchets forever because thats what my dad had and his dad had...but when i went to school for this stuff i used the school's snapon F80 ratchet....and i went on ebay and got myself one the next day :)

[kythri]

And just as bad as the Snap on fanboys, are the ones like you who hate Snap on with a passion and go out of your way to denigrate them every chance you get.

But, going pack to our thread last week...I'm sure you don't have anything against Snap on. :spit:

And again, you display that reading comprehension is far from your strong suit.

I OWN SNAP-ON TOOLS. I USE SNAP-ON TOOLS.

Snap-On makes good tools. This isn't the first time I've said it.

I don't denigrate Snap-On tools, I just don't buy into the hype, because 90% of what Snap-On is is just that - HYPE.

When someone joins this website and asks a legitimate question about "cheap" tools, he's instantly flocked by people telling him that unless he uses Snap-On, he'll die a horrible death from exploding Craftsman wrenches.

[Paladin]

haha i would prefer the 67 ford over the boxter any day actually :) i love classics

Are you saying "Second Tier" Fords are superior to "First Tier" cars such as Porsches?!? This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!:lol_hitti

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

And again, you display that reading comprehension is far from your strong suit.

I OWN SNAP-ON TOOLS. I USE SNAP-ON TOOLS.

Snap-On makes good tools. This isn't the first time I've said it.

I don't denigrate Snap-On tools, I just don't buy into the hype, because 90% of what Snap-On is is just that - HYPE.

When someone joins this website and asks a legitimate question about "cheap" tools, he's instantly flocked by people telling him that unless he uses Snap-On, he'll die a horrible death from exploding Craftsman wrenches.


Mmmm hmmm. Moose had you pegged. :bounce:

[Joelfke]

Are you saying "Second Tier" Fords are superior to "First Tier" car such as Porsches?!? This is OUTRAGEOUS!!!:lol_hitti:wtf:

hahahahahahha

aside from the pun..

not a chance....but ive always been a "wow that car looks/sounds amazing!" over the "well yea this goes 0-60 in 1.3539258327532553523532 seconds...what now?" kinda guy....so to me...the ford kicks the porsches ass in that category....and im a CHEVY guy...so what does THAT tell you haha

[Vinko]

but the best guy in that shop was in his 40s worked out of a 6' tall 26" SK box with mostly Craftsman or S-K with a few Snap-on tools thrown in and he was the fastest/best mechanic in that shop.

I'm not at all questioning that this was not the case, but why do all these stories always contain this kernel of wisdom. It's always the older, wiser, knowing guy. He has mostly Craftsman, a few tools from the Truck, and he's the best mechanic. It's never: "the best mechanic in the shop, who happened to have a drawer full of SnapOn or Stahlwille...or..." whatever. Rathter, it's almost become this folkloric myth around here. The law of averages has got to have the best mechanic at some point just happen to have all expensive truck tools:bounce: Just saying :beer:

[Vinko]

My main problem with brands like Snap On is there is simply no way the retail price of their tools in anywhere near their actual cost to manufacture them. I look at a set of Craftsman Pro wrenches (around 25 wrenches), and a complete set of Metric and SAE cost around $200. It's high-quality, made in the US, and has a lifetime warranty. Sears is obviously making a profit on them. The same set of Snap On would cost around $700-$800. I'll assume the Snap On set is "better", but do you really think it cost Snap On $600 more to manufacture those wrenches compared to Craftsman? There's simply no way, Snap On is just putting a huge markup compared to the store brands. A lot of this is the way the tools are sold, with "free' financing built into the price

I'm sure that you're right that the "financing" is, to a degree (and maybe it's a large degree as some have argued) built into the price of SO wrenches, for instance. But one thing I know from manufacturing and design is that at the top level, incremental improvements can be exponentially more expensive. Not saying this is the case here. Just throwing that out there.

I just made a prototype product that is about $200 to make. The nearest other version if $100. It's got superior raw materials, and superior machining and other qualities, but I'm asking myself, is it twice as good? Maybe not. I'm not sure. But it has cost twice as much to make. And that's in bulk. Now whether or not people decide that it's worth it is the question :)

[Vinko]

I have had snap on bits break and send me to the ER to get a hand full of stitches to brittle a good mechanic knows when you can get by with craftsman or another similar brand or need a snap on special tool last snap on i bought was long 9/16 buy the whole set from sears on sale for 30 bucks they both have their place. work in a concrete plant and you will find out your best friend is the torch ,also wont modify a snap on but will cut up cheap wrenches to make special tool keep a set just for that reason last one cut up was 18 mm to put a 3 foot pipe on 22 dollar set from advanced sae and metric

What was the exact application you were using the SO bits for? I ask because we've broken SO bits in our shop. A lot of them. And Proto. And Apex (I think I pictured the Apex in another thread). Some of it was abuse. Some of it was we were using SO bits that were meant for auto work and we're doing more "assembly line" types of things. One sized bolt, one after another. We didn't blame SO for it. The dealer didn't get pissed off. We didn't get pissed off. He was glad we found Apex, however :)

[Vinko]

Yes I know the same company that makes Matco wrenches makes the Kobalt and Craftsman wrenches, however they are all made to different specs.


There is absolutely no proof of this, either way.


Bo, correct me if I'm wrong (and I may well be), but aren't there ANSI or ISO "disclosures" or ASTM ratings that might reveal this info? I thought the guy on here who worked for Dahaner/Armstrong mentioned that the info. on what the various specs for the various brands of tools made by Dahaner were out there, it's just a matter of finding them? I'd love to find them:thumbup:

I know from my (limited) experience with foundry work that one foundry can produce all sorts of different levels of quality. Same goes with a lot of manufacturing. There might not be "proof" readily available. But I bet it's available, just not readily :)

[nissan_crawler]

What gets me, is some of these guys will come on here and say there's no difference between a Craftsman wrench and a Snap-on wrench, when they may turn a wrench 1 or 2 times a year. :cool:

I used both, probably 100 times each today, didn't make a difference either way.:p123

I could live with using a Craftsman socket if I had too, but I sure as hell don't want to use a Craftsman ratchet; the icky factor is off the chart. :shocking:

No argument there.

Here's my thoughts on this entire subject:

I have nothing against Snap-On, I have a fair amount of it. However, much of it was preceded by Craftsman, and it got the job done fine. Are the ratchets and screwdrivers better? You bet. Did the Craftsman still get the job done just the same? You bet. Do I see a difference in wrenches and sockets? Not really.

If somebody wants all Snap-On, by all means, get it. Just don't preach it's the only way to go, because it's not. Hell, even if I didn't want Craftsman, I would still be looking at many other brands along with Snap-On.

I don't care if you hand me a Craftsman, proto, mac, matco, williams, bahco, hazet, stahlwille, Snap-On, Bonney, whatever wrench, they'll all take the damn bolt out. In the end, it's the one you're most comfortable with that makes the most difference.

[mkdive]

So far I haven't saw any trolls here?! (and I use that same pic when I have spotted a real troll or spammer on here, I have even on occasion hot linked it LIKE YOU...) so...BAD MKDIVE!

That being said, there is just some difference of opinions here. Its a good thread. Hasn't got to out of hand YET. Just wished everyone could appreciate where everyone else is coming from. We don't all see eye to eye. We all have different uses, wants, and needs for the tools we have & what we will use them for. I like reading about everyone's opinions and where there are coming from. Just try not to get so heated about it.

No?! :headscrat

[walrus]

What is amazing is how one or two members can ruin a well meaning thread. A forum is like a magazine in some ways, every topic is not everyones cup of tea, so pass over what doesn't suit you, why ruin it for the members who might benefit from it? Pictures of trolls and what have you, most people who call troll, are exactly that, with few exceptions. Good thing I'm not a moderator, this board needs some trash taken out! That is it for me and type talking to some of you acting up on this thread. I have a fellow member who needs help fixing his car, so I will PM him instead of wasting my time with some of you green ingrates. At least then something is being accomplished,LATER

I agree, I think this is a great thread. Not sure why folks get so excited about someone elses opinion on a tool(s). I know what I've experienced based on years of tugging on tools. I have lots of different brands, most serve their purpose well. I prefer the feel of SnapOn, my experience is their open wrenches don't spread as easily as the Craftmans I have. I like the feel of Snap On ratchets but I use Craftsman Ratchets also. In fact I've replaced Snap on Ratchets due to failure yet I've never replaced a Craftsman due to failure and I've had them since the mid 70s. All of these comments are strickly my opinion. I don't work on any cars but my own anymore so I don't use tools as much as alot of you guys do. I did at one time though.

[caper]

This whole thing is ridiculous,buy what you can afford,enjoy using it,and if it breaks it's more than likely got a lifetime warranty anyway.My box has everything from Princess Auto brand to Snapon,started out with mastercraft from canadian tire and used it for years till I could afford to replace it with other brands as I wanted or needed.Sometimes it's more want than need,but hey if I don't spend it on tools the wife will spend it on jewelery.I may as well have the bling in my "jewellery box" as hers.;)

[RRmech]

Must be me.....but....I've never had that much breakage?
One ratchet and a screwdriver since the late 60's.....working on trains no less.
I guess that's what breaker bars and pry bars are for?
I own a few Snap-On and MAC tools and appreciate the feel and quality of both.
Can't say that I ever felt "less" of a mechanic, with using more economical choices like Craftsman, Truecraft, & Indestro?

Steve

[Bo Heck]

Bo, correct me if I'm wrong (and I may well be), but aren't there ANSI or ISO "disclosures" or ASTM ratings that might reveal this info? I thought the guy on here who worked for Dahaner/Armstrong mentioned that the info. on what the various specs for the various brands of tools made by Dahaner were out there, it's just a matter of finding them? I'd love to find them:thumbup:

I know from my (limited) experience with foundry work that one foundry can produce all sorts of different levels of quality. Same goes with a lot of manufacturing. There might not be "proof" readily available. But I bet it's available, just not readily :)

You could be absolutely right, my point was that he was throwing around completely unfounded "facts," with nothing to back it up. I don't really care either way, they are all pretty good wrenches and will do the job is my point.

[nightrain00]

WOW, I was really bored to actually read all 8 pages of this this morning. And with no coffee! It all comes down to the tools don't do the work the man using them does. I've been a mechanic proffesionally for over 17 years and have allittle bit of everything from every manufacturer. I can count the amount of stuff I've broken over the years with out taking my shoes off and every single item I broke was my fault not the tools. I've also worked with the guy with the crappy tool box that can fix anything and the guy with the $10,000 Snap-on with $50,000 worth of tools that can't fix a sandwich. buy the best tool you can aford that gets the job done.

[mkdive]

I've also worked with the guy with the crappy tool box that can fix anything and the guy with the $10,000 Snap-on with $50,000 worth of tools that can't fix a sandwich.

Classic!!!!! http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/images/smilies/nocontrol.gifhttp://www.r1-forum.com/forums/images/smilies/nocontrol.gifhttp://www.r1-forum.com/forums/images/smilies/nocontrol.gifhttp://www.r1-forum.com/forums/images/smilies/nocontrol.gif

[caper]

I've also worked with the guy with the crappy tool box that can fix anything and the guy with the $10,000 Snap-on with $50,000 worth of tools that can't fix a sandwich. buy the best tool you can aford that gets the job done.

It works both ways.I've also seen it the other way around and then the guy with no tools is coming to me looking to borrow gear.At least the idiot WITH gear doesen't come looking for mine.Some mechanics are capable and some mechanics aren't,the tools don't change that.

[carsounds_dan]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Snap-On-ToolBox-StickerDecal (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Snap-On-ToolBox-StickerDecal-Most-Tools-silver-FREE-P-P_W0QQitemZ350186783092QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Garag e_Equipment_Tools_Tool_Boxes_Storage?hash=item3501 86783092&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A4|65%3A7|39%3A1|240%3A1318)
explains the snap-on mentality perfectly in my opinion.

[Moose-LandTran]

Here's my thoughts on this entire subject:

I have nothing against Snap-On, I have a fair amount of it. However, much of it was preceded by Craftsman, and it got the job done fine. Are the ratchets and screwdrivers better? You bet. Did the Craftsman still get the job done just the same? You bet. Do I see a difference in wrenches and sockets? Not really.

If somebody wants all Snap-On, by all means, get it. Just don't preach it's the only way to go, because it's not. Hell, even if I didn't want Craftsman, I would still be looking at many other brands along with Snap-On.

I don't care if you hand me a Craftsman, proto, mac, matco, williams, bahco, hazet, stahlwille, Snap-On, Bonney, whatever wrench, they'll all take the damn bolt out. In the end, it's the one you're most comfortable with that makes the most difference.

Ah, the voice of reason. :) You always have a down-to-earth and sensible take on things. :thumbup: (unlike the rest of us..)

[GYOGI65]

Do we have a stuttering problem? This thread was to express some ones opinion and give advice, not to bash one tool company or another.
:deadhorse

basicly a computer moron hit button more than once not bashing any tool snap on has great tools but i have also found some things that wont do the job there suppose to but other versions will also know when my old dealer retired ,he would warranty any thing no questions the new dealer considered every thing abused or a no warranty issue. the warranty and price is only as good as your local dealer .also i havent found an impact that will beat snap on

[T56 Impala]

Well, I'm not going to read the whole thread. I am only going to comment on the OP's post.

I agree with you with one simple exception. I have built more than a few engines. Basic rebuilds (started at age 9) to big bore, high output ground pounders. My tools? Craftsman (non pro) and a deflection type Thorsen torque wrench. There were a few vintage Wright, Plomb, Bonney and VlChek tools scattered amongst my Dad's tools. Most were "home owner" grade Craftsman.

The only engine that ever failed was the Toyota 8RC that I built at age 9. (And at age 12 and age 15) If any of you are old enough to know this engine, you know why it was rebuilt so many times. The high output Ford and Chevy engines never had a single issue. Its all on how you do the job, not the tools you have.

I agree that the major marketed tool brands are more bling than anything. (Let me show you MY Snap On tools.....every one is damaged or rusted. My Craftsman, of the same vintage, look nearly as good as the day I got them. )

Choose what you like and use what you like. For me, I'll stick to my Craftsman and vintage stuff.

[krusty the clown]

i used a craftsman wrench today..........i feel dirty :lol_hitti

[MXtras]

This thread is great!

Scott

[woody 73]

Hi,snap-on are ok,I have tools from all over the world and this is what I have learned , take good care of them and they will in turn take care of you.All the Best Woody.

[sk farmer]

i still want to see that 30 year old gear wrench.

[voidifused]

nissan_crawler Does always seem to be the voice of reason on here, everything he said is true.

As for the OP, what you feel is trolling and i what i feel is are 2 different things. Do i feel you were trying to help new members, Maybe. Did it work, not really. This is more of a mind F#ck thread for buying tools then anything.
Also OP, tell me this. A story about laying ratchets on the train tracks and then B#tching about how they would not warranty them, this being a fantasy story or not has any relevance here what so ever BESIDES getting people going?
And did you ever think there is a reason you are not a mod? seems like you made that point your self.
Drama Drama Drama.

[Merkava_4]

Also OP, tell me this. A story about laying ratchets on the train tracks and then B#tching about how they would not warranty them, this being a fantasy story or not has any relevance here what so ever BESIDES getting people going?


The train track story belonged to kythri....not the OP autoace.

That's my contribution to this thread for Tuesday. :D

[-B-]

i still want to see that 30 year old gear wrench.


hold breath wait 30 years :bounce:



Yep I break tools and it is not my fault it is the manufacturer of the object hat i have to work on with severely over torqued bolts and nuts will restrictions on what tools will fit in the space I am at their mercy ( or air supply) I also frequently have to use the same tool almost two dozen times a day under the same over torqued conditions.

[TangoFoxTrot]

I enjoy discussions like this as long as it's kept civil, I appreciate all points of view.

One point I keep coming back to is, how often do quality tools really break and need replacement? One point the Snap On/Tool Truck camp keeps coming back to is that they last longer than other brands (which is probably true), hence they're 3-4 times the price. I have mostly Craftsman, with a mixture of all sort of other brands, and I almost never break anything.

Granted, I'm just a shade tree hobbyist that enjoys working on cars, but I've been wrenching a while. Of my entire tool collection, I would say far less than 1% has needed replacement as a result of breaking when they were used properly, and that's even with some Harbor Freight quality tools. I have a good friend that's a full time mechanic, and he has quite a bit of Craftsman, with a smattering of the truck brands. I asked them how the Craftsman hold up and he said it's pretty rare that he ever has to make a return. He doesn't feel the need to step up with the more expensive brands, and he's been a professional wrench for nearly 20 years.

My guess is most people who wrench professionally probably have less than 1% of their tools break when used properly (i.e. no chrome sockets on an impact gun, using a ratchet when you should be using a breaker bar etc.). I would be more than willing to put up with slightly more broken tools and have a complete collection for less than $10k as opposed to having the same collection with Snap On and being $50k in debt.

[voidifused]

The train track story belonged to kythri....not the OP autoace.

That's my contribution to this thread for Tuesday. :D

there page 9 of a thread that should have died at page 2.:willy_nil

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

I would be more than willing to put up with slightly more broken tools and have a complete collection for less than $10k as opposed to having the same collection with Snap On and being $50k in debt.

That was Autoace's original point...which seems to have gotten lost in the many posts since.

The people who break tools all the time are much more likely to be the people who don't use the right tools for the job they're doing...no matter what brand they're using.

[autoace]

there page 9 of a thread that should have died at page 2.:willy_nil

This thread would be shorter if it were not for you Snappy's having a pissing contest. I mentioned Matco, Cornwell(which I buy from),and MAC, but we only get Snap-on b.s....goes to show the brand "sickness". I don't see any other brand owners with the same type of posters. :moon:

[voidifused]

I buy all snap on tool's..because there are no other dealers besides ebay to buy from, that covers it for me :( but i still like my tools and there is good in this thread just a lot of sh#t Covering diamonds.

[fomocoforrester]

From my experience of using tools and watching other people using tools, the vast majority of tool breakage or damage is down to abuse of the tool.

What constitutes abuse? - I would say using a tool outside its design specification. So how do we know what the design specs of the tool are? - not at all easy to find out, even when the manufacturer publishes this information it can still be a very time consuming process to match the individual tool to the applicable part of the specification, time that the vast majority of us simply don't have.

So the only approach we are left with is to rely on instinct, which is derived from a great many contributing factors that can range from knowing a manufacturers reputation, through personal experience, and knowlege of the makers pricing and buiness model, to a "feel" for mechanical things.

My instinct has long told me that Snap On tools - very fine tools that they are - do not represent the best value for money out there, and this view was recently reinforced by someone on this, or some other forum, whose post I cannot find just now, who described what they understood to be one aspect of the Snap On buisness model.

What they were saying basically was that Snap On are not making excess profit, but are attempting to increase their market share by targeting a large market sector with a poor history of relying heavily on credit and subsequently defaulting. They then cover the costs of these bad loans by inflating the price of their products.

I would not be happy buying into this buisness model as it requires people with good credit history to subsidise those with a poor history. However, having heard it from a source of unknown credibility, I would be interested to hear if any one here can comment on whether or not this is the case. :thumbup:

[cruiser808]

Do you really need to drive a Posche Boxter when a '67 Ford will get you there? Why live in a $200,000 house when a mobile home will keep the rain off of your head? Why marry Jessica Simpson when Rosie O'Donnell can keep you warm at night?

It's about choices... this is America. Enjoy it while you still can.

From one Cruiser to another Krooser, that Rosie O'Donnell comparison was just plain sick and twisted. I won't get that out of my head anytime soon. :yikes: :puke: :lol_hitti

[81Seca]

The higher resale value of Snap-On tools has it's downside too I guess. When my neighbor finished high school a few years back, he got a student discount on Snap-On while going to tech school. By the time he was done, his nut with Snap-On was 5 figures. Hell, I was happy, as I now had about any tool I needed at my disposal. My own bastard family of tools looked like well worn dishrags next to his brandy new high polished collection of Snappy's.
Turn the clock ahead 5 years and now my neighbors toolbox is more a mixed bag than my own! Turned out that over time, several of his "friends" took a 5 fingered discount on almost everything labeled Snap-On that he owned. Because that's the name they recognized as "high end". I guess if I was ever in a situation where I had to worry about my tools walking off I'd steer clear of Snap-On. I'd never be foolish enough to doubt that Snap-On made quality products, but their marketing and name recognition is just as good as their tools.

[Joelfke]

The higher resale value of Snap-On tools has it's downside too I guess. When my neighbor finished high school a few years back, he got a student discount on Snap-On while going to tech school. By the time he was done, his nut with Snap-On was 5 figures. Hell, I was happy, as I now had about any tool I needed at my disposal. My own bastard family of tools looked like well worn dishrags next to his brandy new high polished collection of Snappy's.
Turn the clock ahead 5 years and now my neighbors toolbox is more a mixed bag than my own! Turned out that over time, several of his "friends" took a 5 fingered discount on almost everything labeled Snap-On that he owned. Because that's the name they recognized as "high end". I guess if I was ever in a situation where I had to worry about my tools walking off I'd steer clear of Snap-On. I'd never be foolish enough to doubt that Snap-On made quality products, but their marketing and name recognition is just as good as their tools.

if i had a 5 figure bill from snapon and my "friends" took my tools....i would be in jail for murder...

sad part is...im not kidding...:mad:

[Merkava_4]

I got my wheels spinning in my head right now; I wanna come up with a thread that will open a can of worms too. :D

[Paladin]

if i had a 5 figure bill from snapon and my "friends" took my tools....i would be in jail for murder...

sad part is...im not kidding...:mad:

X2. My "friends" would suddenly "disappear" under mysterious circumstances...

[HandyManny]

Look guys, everyone has their preferences of what make of tools they like. I have my favorite too. As far as Snap-On goes, aside from some specialized tools, they are not the end-all be-all in the tool world. Back when Snap-On was just graduating from diapers to training pants and getting a distributor, it was names like JH Williams, Plomb, JP Danielson, Crescent Tool Co, Diamond Calk Tool Co, New Britain, Bonney and many others who were building America. Not Snap-On.

I will say that Snap-On does make some very nice wrenches, ratchets, sockets, and socket accessories for the automotive and aviation repair tech market. But, look around in other industries and you'll find just as good of tools, brands that cater more to other industries.

It's true what one poster said on this thread, something to the effect......it's always the wise old guy in the shop who has mostly Craftsman and a few Snap-On who is the best mechanic. I see a similar thing in the shooting world. Some of the best and most outstanding shooting I've ever seen has been by people with some pretty basic, ugly, beat-up, and well used firearms, not the fancy overpriced big name stuff. It's all in how you use your equipment that counts.

[Vulturej]

From one Cruiser to another Krooser, that Rosie O'Donnell comparison was just plain sick and twisted. I won't get that out of my head anytime soon. :yikes: :puke: :lol_hitti

Man I would rather die of frost bite than wake up next to Rosie O'Donnell. LMAO :lol_hitti

[The Muffin Man]

Wow Merk, you deleted that quick!

[Joelfke]

Look guys, everyone has their preferences of what make of tools they like. I have my favorite too. As far as Snap-On goes, aside from some specialized tools, they are not the end-all be-all in the tool world. Back when Snap-On was just graduating from diapers to training pants and getting a distributor, it was names like JH Williams, Plomb, JP Danielson, Crescent Tool Co, Diamond Calk Tool Co, New Britain, Bonney and many others who were building America. Not Snap-On.

I will say that Snap-On does make some very nice wrenches, ratchets, sockets, and socket accessories for the automotive and aviation repair tech market. But, look around in other industries and you'll find just as good of tools, brands that cater more to other industries.

It's true what one poster said on this thread, something to the effect......it's always the wise old guy in the shop who has mostly Craftsman and a few Snap-On who is the best mechanic. I see a similar thing in the shooting world. Some of the best and most outstanding shooting I've ever seen has been by people with some pretty basic, ugly, beat-up, and well used firearms, not the fancy overpriced big name stuff. It's all in how you use your equipment that counts.

its nice that in a thread of somewhat useless shit...SOME people still have the intelligence to give some good input.

[fomocoforrester]

Wow Merk, you deleted that quick!

Only just caught it myself!:lol_hitti

[Merkava_4]

Wow Merk, you deleted that quick!

I was thinking of Rosanne Barr.

[nissan_crawler]

My guess is most people who wrench professionally probably have less than 1% of their tools break when used properly (i.e. no chrome sockets on an impact gun, using a ratchet when you should be using a breaker bar etc.). I would be more than willing to put up with slightly more broken tools and have a complete collection for less than $10k as opposed to having the same collection with Snap On and being $50k in debt.

I agree fully.

Here's yet another observation of how I see it (and was the OP's original point that got lost). Almost everybody has x amount of money they can afford to spend to buy tools at the beginning (I'm talking professional mechanics).

Let's say that is $10k.

Mechanic #1. Spends the $10k on snap-on box and base tools. Tools are nice when he can do the job, but he doesn't have the tools to do many jobs. Just a basic wrench and socket set with a hammer and a few pliers, and a $4-5k box.

Mechanic 2. Spends $2500 on Craftsman for the same base tools and box. Has $7500 to buy specialty tools so he can do the jobs that the mechanic #1 can't do.

Now, Mechanic #2 can do almost all jobs, while Mechanic #1 loses the training, and the pay. Mechanic #2 gets more jobs, makes more money, and then can slowly start replacing the Craftsman items he wants to with better tools.

Who do you think the boss likes more?

I work in a shop of 500 mechanics. many of the new guys are Mechanic #1, and they piss me the f@ck off, because they always want to borrow something, and can never get the job done.

They make fun of Mechanic #2 (me) because of the craftsman tools and box, but then want to borrow Mechanic #2's specialty tools all the time, because they have a wrench and socket set, and one hammer for the same money invested, and can't do jack sh!t.

I work with somebody that has been in the industry for 25 years. He has all snap-on. I've been in it for 7 years, have a mix of tools, have 4x the tools he does, and about the same $$ invested.

THAT is the point of this post. If you can buy EVERYTHING you need at Truck brand prices right off the bat, fine. 99% of the people can't, and will be MUCH better served with cheaper base tools and more specialty tools, than a handful of high dollar tools and no specialty ones.

[cruiser808]

This whole thing is ridiculous,buy what you can afford,enjoy using it,and if it breaks it's more than likely got a lifetime warranty anyway.My box has everything from Princess Auto brand to Snapon,started out with mastercraft from canadian tire and used it for years till I could afford to replace it with other brands as I wanted or needed.Sometimes it's more want than need,but hey if I don't spend it on tools the wife will spend it on jewelery.I may as well have the bling in my "jewellery box" as hers.;)


Great call Caper! been there, done that. :thumbup:

[cruiser808]

It works both ways.I've also seen it the other way around and then the guy with no tools is coming to me looking to borrow gear.At least the idiot WITH gear doesen't come looking for mine.Some mechanics are capable and some mechanics aren't,the tools don't change that.

Bingo! Give Caper the prize! :thumbup::bowdown:

[cruiser808]

Ah, the voice of reason. :) You always have a down-to-earth and sensible take on things. :thumbup: (unlike the rest of us..)

And I have to agree. Of all the young Turks on this board, Nissan has influenced me the most. Hell, I'd like to hire him. Yes, he can get a bit passionate in expressing his opinions, but I've tested those and he always comes up on top. I'm am a Nissan fan on GJ because he knows his stuff. And this is coming from a senior professional building, electrical and mechanical code guy that has to know all up to date technical specs all the time, just like aircraft techs. Thumps up to you Nissan. :thumbup:

[cruiser808]

Well, I must be the king of final say on this thread because everyone seems to be scared away by my intellect, or what is more likely, everyone got bored and I was late to the party.

How about letting the tool distributor decide what is best for you as an individual tool user? Each user has his/her own requirements.

[nissan_crawler]

Well, I must be the king of final say on this thread because everyone seems to be scared away by my intellect, or what is more likely, everyone got bored and I was late to the party.

How about letting the tool distributor decide what is best for you as an individual tool user? Each user has his/her own requirements.

Why would you trust a tool distributor to that? The best is the most expensive thing they sell, just ask them.

[Shocker]

I like tools.

[Vinko]

From my experience of using tools and watching other people using tools, the vast majority of tool breakage or damage is down to abuse of the tool.

What constitutes abuse? - I would say using a tool outside its design specification. So how do we know what the design specs of the tool are? - not at all easy to find out, even when the manufacturer publishes this information it can still be a very time consuming process to match the individual tool to the applicable part of the specification, time that the vast majority of us simply don't have.

So the only approach we are left with is to rely on instinct, which is derived from a great many contributing factors that can range from knowing a manufacturers reputation, through personal experience, and knowlege of the makers pricing and buiness model, to a "feel" for mechanical things.

My instinct has long told me that Snap On tools - very fine tools that they are - do not represent the best value for money out there, and this view was recently reinforced by someone on this, or some other forum, whose post I cannot find just now, who described what they understood to be one aspect of the Snap On buisness model.

What they were saying basically was that Snap On are not making excess profit, but are attempting to increase their market share by targeting a large market sector with a poor history of relying heavily on credit and subsequently defaulting. They then cover the costs of these bad loans by inflating the price of their products.

I would not be happy buying into this buisness model as it requires people with good credit history to subsidise those with a poor history. However, having heard it from a source of unknown credibility, I would be interested to hear if any one here can comment on whether or not this is the case. :thumbup:

I'll bring this up again with my SO dealer, who also happens to be a local guy that I've known for a while, before I started buying tools from him. He told me that the old model was that it used to be that it was something like approx. 33% dealer mark up, 33% distributor, and 33% SO. Each took it's share, and you got the tool price.

I for one happen to be enjoying this thread.

BTW: Used some Crafty drivers, a Bonney ratcheting wrench, some proto combos, some proto pin punches, a Harvey Epstein special 32 oz. ball pein today. Took them out of my SO tool box. :)

[sberry]

I make my living with tools too and have a handful of snappy, its nice as any, no doubt fine tools and in a couple cases worth the effrort. It isnt that it isnt good but the cost, especially since the quality of tools in general has sky rocketed. Didnt used to be that way but even junk is good these days.
some the hardest worked tools we have are small endwrenches, about 50 of them,7/16, 1/2 and 9/16, day in and out, 1.50 a piece. I broke a couple over the years and 2 more wheree I was using as a backup for continious impact during demolition job. China or India, some Tiawan, the economics of it cant be beat.

[fomocoforrester]

I'll bring this up again with my SO dealer, who also happens to be a local guy that I've known for a while, before I started buying tools from him. He told me that the old model was that it used to be that it was something like approx. 33% dealer mark up, 33% distributor, and 33% SO. Each took it's share, and you got the tool price.

I for one happen to be enjoying this thread.

BTW: Used some Crafty drivers, a Bonney ratcheting wrench, some proto combos, some proto pin punches, a Harvey Epstein special 32 oz. ball pein today. Took them out of my SO tool box. :)

Thanks for that Vinko, It'll be interesting to hear what he has to say. :thumbup:

I quite enjoyed the thread too. A few people on here tend to take it all a bit too seriously, but that only makes it more entertaining. :)

[Derek1387]

wow... im knda glad i found this thread before i went nuts on the matco/snappy truck. Only have about 500 bux in truck accounts right now, and the rest is craftsman. I think im gunna finish getting my craftsman stuff, and then buy specialty tools thru truck stuff....

and occasonally the snappy/matco hand tool!

[sk farmer]

wow... im knda glad i found this thread before i went nuts on the matco/snappy truck. Only have about 500 bux in truck accounts right now, and the rest is craftsman. I think im gunna finish getting my craftsman stuff, and then buy specialty tools thru truck stuff....

and occasonally the snappy/matco hand tool!

smart move. get as much as you can. then upgrade if necessary.pay your other bills first.

[Joelfke]

wow... im knda glad i found this thread before i went nuts on the matco/snappy truck. Only have about 500 bux in truck accounts right now, and the rest is craftsman. I think im gunna finish getting my craftsman stuff, and then buy specialty tools thru truck stuff....

and occasonally the snappy/matco hand tool!

thats what im doing. I have some high end ratchets like some snapon and MAC ratchets but the majority of my sockets are craftsman until i can afford better and my wrenches are craftsman or gearwrench except for a set of flare nut wrenches which are snapon

[autoace]

wow... im knda glad i found this thread before i went nuts on the matco/snappy truck. Only have about 500 bux in truck accounts right now, and the rest is craftsman. I think im gunna finish getting my craftsman stuff, and then buy specialty tools thru truck stuff....

and occasonally the snappy/matco hand tool!

Glad I saved someone some money/disappointment

true story
I always had fairly cheap impact sockets years ago, then I bought some craftsman ones, both were fine after 10 years of hard service. I "upgraded" to some Snap-on ones, after 1 month of use, the drive end and broached end looked 10x worse than the craftsman or the Taiwan cheapies, it was pathetic...since I only used the 17, 19, and 21 heavy, I sold them immediately, waste of money, no upgrade.......I still have the Taiwan and Cman ones. Cornwell impacts are great, but no better than the ones I already have. Alot of times there is no need to upgrade.

[GDA]

Unbelievable that this thread still has legs.... I ponder the thought of how many cool projects or repairs could have been completed with the time spent reading or posting in this thread. :lol_hitti

[fomocoforrester]

Unbelievable that this thread still has legs.... I ponder the thought of how many cool projects or repairs could have been completed with the time spent reading or posting in this thread. :lol_hitti

Maybe more will be completed with the money saved than could have been with the time spent. :thumbup:

[autoace]

Maybe more will be completed with the money saved than could have been with the time spent. :thumbup:

That's right, If you don't give the tool truck 400 to 600 bucks a month, a guy can afford performance cylinder heads, other car parts for projects, too numerous to list. You can get a pizza for lunch a day a week, have more money for a woman friend.:bounce::thumbup:

[Merkava_4]

My advice to the new guys is don't run up a truck tab......buy 1 or 2 wrenches at a time and pay for them with cash in full each time. :thumbup:

[autoace]

My advice to the new guys is don't run up a truck tab......buy 1 or 2 wrenches at a time and pay for them with cash in full each time. :thumbup:

That is good advice, but hard to follow, especially with all the peer pressure and dealer smoke. Once they give you easy credit, and you see the sparkle on the truck it is hard. The guys want it all, now..........its horrible, and before you know it bang you owe 5 figures, or a constant 4. Good thing for me there is not a Hazet truck around, I might get weak in the knees and derail my own advice, that would be bad for my car projects.:shocking:

[wantedabiggergarage]

Well, I must be the king of final say on this thread because everyone seems to be scared away by my intellect, or what is more likely, everyone got bored and I was late to the party.

How about letting the tool distributor decide what is best for you as an individual tool user? Each user has his/her own requirements.

:spit::spit::lol:

Why would you trust a tool distributor to that? The best is the most expensive thing they sell, just ask them.

Not always! In my case, and I am sure I am not the only one here, I knew more about the tools, and what they carried, then our drivers did. We still had a regional Snap-On location then, and he bothered me more then a few times to become a tool salesman.
I special ordered one item, that I considered a common item. He sold five more the day mine came in, before getting to our shop.

Now, no Snap-On driver, No Matco driver, and the Mac driver is getting much worse (or Mac is, but I doubt that).

[Merkava_4]

That is good advice, but hard to follow, especially with all the peer pressure and dealer smoke. Once they give you easy credit, and you see the sparkle on the truck it is hard.

How about this then: don't walk on the truck......stay on the asphalt like you would with an ice cream truck. :D

[autoace]

How about this then: don't walk on the truck......stay on the asphalt like you would with an ice cream truck. :D

For alot of guys, that would be like having the woman of your dreams, nude & willing in front of you, you give the danish a quick Gene Simmons, and then walk away without full engagement. Don't think that will work for most guys.:headscrat

[Merkava_4]

For alot of guys, that would be like having the woman of your dreams, nude & willing in front of you, you give the danish a quick Gene Simmons, and then walk away without full engagement. Don't think that will work for most guys.:headscrat

The guy tried to get me to come on the truck today......I had none of it!! I stayed on the asphalt. It's all about willpower baby. :D

[-B-]

Peer pressure is for the weak and the weak are not pros.

[autoace]

The guy tried to get me to come on the truck today......I had none of it!! I stayed on the asphalt. It's all about willpower baby. :D

I hear a parody in my head:


Come on in,
don't stay in the street

Got some expensive chrome here,
that can't be beat

Hey hey I'm the Snap-on man
Never know if I'll be around

Cuz I'm too busy takin',
all the mechanics cash in town


I think it was a monkee's song

[Merkava_4]

I hear a parody in my head:


Come on in,
don't stay in the street

Got some expensive chrome here,
that can't be beat

Hey hey I'm the Snap-on man
Never know if I'll be around

Cuz I'm too busy takin',
all the mechanics cash in town


I think it was a monkee's song

And I wanted to squeeze a comfort grip ratchet BAD, but I didn't have any cash in my pocket and I knew I didn't belong on that truck. ;)

[autoace]

And I wanted to squeeze a comfort grip ratchet BAD, but I didn't have any cash in my pocket and I new I didn't belong on that truck. ;)

Buy online then, you won't get the visual overload, or squeeze a Gearwrench, comfort grip ratchet, almost the same thing, damn close.

[Merkava_4]

Buy online then, you won't get the visual overload, or squeeze a Gearwrench, comfort grip ratchet, almost the same thing, damn close.

I have a feeling my first comfort grip experience will be from an eBay ratchet in the privacy of my own home. ;)

[fomocoforrester]

Peer pressure is for the weak and the weak are not pros.

Some of the best young guys in the buisness may not always have the experience to judge independantly what is right for them. So they will look around them to see what the normal practice is, and follow that as part of their best endevour to be "professional".

This is not neccessarily a sign of weakness.

[Merkava_4]

When I worked in a Toyota shop, the guys doing their job with Craftsman tools got alot more respect; sorta like losing one of your gears half way through a NASCAR event and then going on to win the race. :bowdown:

[south pier garage]

in any trade, it's a poor workman who blames his tools . . .

[hetkind]

Last few years I have been buying my speciality pullers from OTC, with pretty good luck. As for Snap-on, most of my snap-on stuff was bought 25 years ago, but I do see various tool guys on my rounds and often will pickup a oddball socket here or there. (rebuilding old stuff, various bearing pullers come in awfully handy:-)

My favorite RECENT snapon story, only a few years ago...my rack of 1/2" drive deep impact sockets, bought used 25 years ago was starting to wear out. So I put the sockets in a paper bag with some other busted Snap on stuff (the T-50 torx drivers die easy) and found the truck at the local motorcycle place. He rummages through the bag, explains that I had an entire worn out set here and snapon didn't warrently wear out.

Then he says, as long as they stay on the air gun they are good, as the 13/16 deep socket flies off the airgun and bounces off the steel toe of my work boot. He replace that ONE socket.

I got an even better story with Northern Tool and a 20 ton press, but that will wait until another day.

Howard

[autoace]

Last few years I have been buying my speciality pullers from OTC, with pretty good luck. As for Snap-on, most of my snap-on stuff was bought 25 years ago, but I do see various tool guys on my rounds and often will pickup a oddball socket here or there. (rebuilding old stuff, various bearing pullers come in awfully handy:-)

My favorite RECENT snapon story, only a few years ago...my rack of 1/2" drive deep impact sockets, bought used 25 years ago was starting to wear out. So I put the sockets in a paper bag with some other busted Snap on stuff (the T-50 torx drivers die easy) and found the truck at the local motorcycle place. He rummages through the bag, explains that I had an entire worn out set here and snapon didn't warrently wear out.

Then he says, as long as they stay on the air gun they are good, as the 13/16 deep socket flies off the airgun and bounces off the steel toe of my work boot. He replace that ONE socket.

I got an even better story with Northern Tool and a 20 ton press, but that will wait until another day.

Howard

So much for easy warranty huh! I had a hard time getting new SO defects replaced under warranty, the tools were not even used, bad from day one. The poor warranty service was the final blow for me. Makes you think before spending mega bucks with them again doesn't it.:(

[Coach James]

I wonder what tool one would pick if they absolutely had to get a nut or a bolt off. Lets say you had a 5/16 nut or bolt that was rusted heavily. You have to get it loose or die. All you get is an open end wrench!. What brand are you picking??


Task Force!!!!:thumbup:

Coach