Plumbing Air Lines (Q's)

[sca037]

First off, thanks to Luke for this neat forum!

I'm considering my options regarding the plumbing of air lines throughout the garage, and would value some input from my fellow 'junkies'

:bow:

Currently, I have a flexible line suspended below the ceiling that runs from the compressor (behind some jun, er.....stuff) in the left rear to a 50' coil ceiling-mounted near the post on the right. That allows me to reach all points with air, but I want to make a multi-port system so I'm not reeling lots of hose out all the time. If I plumb a system using hard lines, is it better to surface mount them over the drywall, or is it safe to bury it within the walls and ceiling and terminate the ports at the surface? I would hate to have to fix a problem in a buried system, but wonder what the likelihood of a problem really is down the road?
I've seen both metal and plastic tubing used for this, but what is the best for a personal (probably never over 150psi) garage and why?

Many thanks in advance,
Brian

[gb387]

Well I am not to sure whats better but... My father used copper water line in his garage, in fact he is in the middle of installing it as I type this. He has yst to try it but a plumber told him it would be adequate and it all will be behind the dry wall or in the celling.

Now where I work we use black pipe to run air lines and I have worked for this company for 10 years and never seen a problem with that method.

I like the "clean" look in a garage so I like to keep things hidden behind dry wall this includes air lines. My thought is no plastic behind drywall, if you pound a nail in it or drive a screw in it to hand something you will have a leak.

Another thing not to for get is on the lowest parts of the pipe I would put a valve to drain water out that collects in the pipes.

I found this post has some good info in it, a big no to PVC a yes to copper or black pipe: Read this (http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tools/msg110643407036.html)

[dodgecharger-fan]

Personal preference? Run it on the surface.
Stuff happens and it's so mouch easier to deal with if you can get at it.

I'm looking into something for my current garage. GaragePak seems interesting enough, but it's spendy.

One of the MOPARStyle members is a dealer or distributor. I'm sure he can set up a discount or group buy.. There was a post there I think - or it may have been a PM. I'll check later today...

[ultgar]

The Garage-Pak piping system (made by Legris-Transair) is a thinwall aluminum tubing which goes together (and comes apart) with simple hand tools. It is a good product but can become a bit pricey plus the Garage-Pak folks cut the piping to 9' lengths (a pain for big jobs...too many couplings needed) for UPS shipping. You can get 20' sections direct from the manufacturer.

http://www.ultimategarage.com/transair-a.jpg

To be honest, most of the professional jobs are done in "L" copper....3/4" loops and 1/2" drops are fine for most home workshops. If you're running big CFM's and multiple users, consider going with 1" or 1 1/4" feeds to your wall drops.

Do not use PVC. Threaded pipe is a bit of a pain with more leakage issues.

[OI812]

I would personally mount on the surface of the wall. When you want to add to it later it will be easier. Mounting behind the wall is cleaner, just less options. If you do it behind the wall, test it before dry-walling so that you don't have to worry about leaks.

I do commercial plumbing for a living, and I have run air in basically three different fashions.
1) Black Pipe, if you don't have access to threading equipment then it can be kind of a PITA
2) Copper Type L or K K is heavier walled but not necessary. This could be done with regular solder-soft solder
3) Copper Type L or K and silver solder. Silver solder is a much stronger joint, but you need a lot of heat. This will also make the copper soft.

I have run air lines for a couple of guys in there shops. When I did it we ran
1-1/4" copper tubing. We ran straight links all the way around the shop. Then they figured out where they wanted the stubs, and I pulled out my T-Drill and drilled them in. With a T-Drill you can actually pull a tee out of the straight pipe. I like doing this the best, but I have the drill. I know you can't rent these either.

I would also put a dirt leg at all stub outs unless you have a filter at the tank.

[sca037]

Thanks for the superb responses guys!
One option that I figured someone would mention is to run the long feeder line(s) in air hose, similar to how I have it now. It's obviously cheap and flexible, and could then be plumbed down to hard ports in the walls. I can envision a large diameter hose for the long (50+ foot) horizontal runs through the ceiling trusses, then a transition to hard pipe for the vertical drops. I think that this scenario would keep the hose portion reasonably safe from puncture or other hazards, and I could easily make the run straight enough that if I ever had to service (or replace over time) the hose it could remain accessible.
Is the downside to this plan the limited availability of large diameter high pressure air hose, connection issues, or ???

Brian

[jstbecauz]

In my shop I used galvanized pipe. That is all I have ever used. I plumbed the complete shop where I am now and did it all with pipe. If you are going to use galvanized make sure that you put unions in, it will help when servicing the lines.

[OI812]

IMO I wouldn't run the hose, yeah safety is the main reason. Your going to spend all this money in your shop and you want to save 100 buck on copper pipe? There are some other issues with it, but IMO you would never notice in a system that small.

[Satatic]

I was wondering why PVC isn't a good idea.

[gb387]

I was wondering why PVC isn't a good idea.


There are many reasons listed on the site below... anything from the the constant changing pressure weakens the PVC to getting oil in the pipe softens the PVC to in cold climates it becomes very brittle and the list goes on all can cause the PVC to burst.... check it out below.

It is talked about here (http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/tools/msg110643407036.html)

[SteveL]

I am in the process of running a system in my new addition using 3/4" copper thick wall inside the drywall. I hate the look of everything exposed so I hope that I don't need to rip any drywall out some day. At least I pressurized the system to test for leaks prior to hanging the drywall so everything should be OK. I like the copper as I can come back and add or change things without a lot of work.

I also ran the system into my basement wood working shop at the same time so the compressor can be outside in the garage to cut down noise in the house. Makes the wife a lot happier that way! As soon as I get some pics I will try to post them. Good luck with your project!

[OI812]

PVC and air is a real bad idea--accident waiting to happen.

When you say thick walled copper I assume you mean type K. You really don't need K, L is less expensive and is fine for pressures under 200lbs. The weakest part of your system will be your soldered joints. Is your compressor installed in an area that will be cold? If you have air lines that go from cold to hot you can get moisture in the lines. You may need a moisture filter at your outlets.

[Mr. Stock]

I am interested in having compressed air line in my garage as well.
I saw this in Griot's Garage catalog:
http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?&SKU=10035
Does anybody have any experience with this type of tubing?

[carsguns&chics]

I work everyday installing CPVC for fire sprinkler systems in homes, and like all the fittings say on the box "Not For Use with Compressed Gases or Compressed Air". I have asked one of our suppliers about this warning and he said it was due to pressure difference changes, or known as pressure cycles. So I figured from the ensuing conversation that as long as the pipe is not cycled rapidly over and over from 0 to max in quick succession that there should be negligable problems if the pipe is kept within these parameters. After viewing his setup at his residence I copied it but in a much smaller set-up. He had all of his piping in the walls and ceiling behind sheetrock. And he explained to me that he used the foam insulation wrap around the pipes in the trusses and walls using the proper straps to secure it. And he adapted the plastic to steel about a foot before each drop for a quick disconnect and another 6 inches of pipe below with a valve to drain water trapped. And another thing that I have yet to see other people install on their air line system is a safety release valve set just over the operating pressure of your tools. And Yes it is affected by temperature and by Sunlight, which causes embrittlement, which explains the insulation. :willy_nil

By the way I love the site.

[OI812]

I agree with carsguns&chics on this subject to a certain point. PVC in smaller diamters can take more pressure, larger diameter less pressure. I don't believe the pipe will burst or blow up due to pressure alone. What concerns me is that PVC does not like petroleum products and has a tendency to break down from some of them. Some of the glues are attacked by petroleum products. Yes sunlight does deteriorate PVC, but thats probably not much of a problem in a garage. However I certainly would be thinking about the fact that some of us live in cold climates and PVC becomes extremely brittle in these temps. It doesn't take much to break the pipe in these climates. If your going to use PVC and you have your mind made up then I would look at Sch 80 for it.

Now towards the air lines the Griots Garage, if I looked at it right the price on the pipe was roughly 1 dollar a foot. Copper is about half that price. One elbow was 3.99 one copper elbow is .39. If you notice the pressure was not to exceed 150 psi, copper in Type L is above a 1000 psi. It doesn't take much to solder a joint especially 1/2". Do what you want but if you use PVC be careful. Believe me when I say there are no commercial or industrial buildings putting in PVC for air lines, they either use copper or black. They are always looking to cut cost, and if they could use PVC they would.

[52 M37]

Personally I would use either some type of steel (ie black iron, galvanized) or copper.

Using hose to run the air around to the drop downs won't give you much in the way of volume. I would run ¾" or 1" to the drop downs.

Also make sure in your drop downs to put a drain pet**** at the lowest point of each drop down. This way before each use you can drain the condensation out of the drop down.

I would also put the lines on top of the drywall. You never know what kind of problems might arise. If you want to paint it the same color as the drywall this will make it a little less obvious.

Of course this is just my 2¢
Hope this helps.
Good Luck with your project,
Rich

[Hubjeep]

Hello all,
I used ½" PVC in the garage, which has been in place for the past 4 years with no problems. A mechanic I worked for who is very safety conscious, has been using PVC for a very long time. I keep constant pressure on the lines at all times, turning the power off to the pressure switch when I am not using it (just incase). I used Oatey Pool and Spa cement (blue in color), which is suggested for “fast pressurization”.

Here are some pics below:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/Hubjeep/Garage%20Air/compressor.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/Hubjeep/Garage%20Air/gauge.jpg
Feeding outside:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/Hubjeep/goingout.jpg


-John :cool:

[Hubjeep]

Outside connector
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/Hubjeep/Garage%20Air/outside.jpg
Ceiling outlet (for use with coil hose)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/Hubjeep/Garage%20Air/ceilingoutlet.jpg
Switch:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v222/Hubjeep/Garage%20Air/switch.jpg

-John :cool:

[OI812]

There is no manufacture that recommends PVC for air piping. It is a compressable gas, and water is not. Gas can explode violantly. Plumbing systems although not recommended by the manufacture are sometimes tested with air at 10 feet of head or 4.34 psi. I just want you to look at a system that was tested that way and what happened. Think about it, do you want pvc in your body? Your not saving that much over copper or black iron is it worth the risk? There are plastics that are rated for compressed air, why not use them. Where willing to spend thousands of dollars on our garages and toys. Yet when it comes to a safety factor and our lives we want to save a buck, is it worth it?

[OH-MAN]

PVC bad . Do not use it !!!
L copper is what I recomend.
Do it one time and be done with it.

[sca037]

Thanks to everyone for all the valuable information posted here!


Much appreciated ;^>
Brian

[2fuzy]

thought I would add this as no one has the iron pipe is a bad idea if you plan to do any painting a little bit of rust can ruin a whole lot of time and money when it gets in your HoK paint job

[OI812]

Painting shouldn't be a problem if it is preped correctly. The biggest thing with black or threaded pipe is removing the oil, which is usually done with a alcohol or xylol(?) product. Prime the pipe and then paint.

[Big6Dad]

I think 2fuzy was refering to a speck of rust comming out of the line and contaminating the paint that then is applied to the surface being painted....

[js73751]

Please stay away from PVC. Why take the chance? I have witnessed the damage from a pipe that was hit while under pressure. Plastic Shrapnel(sp?)... There are far more cons than pros. I ran all my 3/4 copper lines through the walls. Gives a nice clean look. Don't forget the drains at the lowest points of the runs.
Joe

[OI812]

I think 2fuzy was refering to a speck of rust comming out of the line and contaminating the paint that then is applied to the surface being painted....
I have my reading spectacles on now:lol_hitti I should have take more time to read it. Any way put on an air filter, I believe the one I have is a 5 Micron filter. It is installed along with a moisture filter just before the hose.

[funnone]

I used 1/2 copper easy to install been 6 yrs. No problems just check all of your joints for leaks before you drywall.

[wlhump]

One last word of caution on using PVC for compressed air...NO! I worked in a lumber mill that ran some temp air lines in PVC. After a week, one had a catastrophic failure at ~80 psi. Plastic fragments went everywhere and a large now unsupported end of a run whipped violently about the shop. A very memorable example to not do this.
wlhump

[gb387]

One last word of caution on using PVC for compressed air...NO! I worked in a lumber mill that ran some temp air lines in PVC. After a week, one had a catastrophic failure at ~80 psi. Plastic fragments went everywhere and a large now unsupported end of a run whipped violently about the shop. A very memorable example to not do this.
wlhump

I agree! Even on the box at the home Improvement store the PVC comes in say NOT FOR gas or air lines!

[Roadster]

I second the Garage-Pak system (http://www.garagepak.com), made by Legris-Transair. Great product! I have it installed in my garage.

[tofer76]

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99689
scroll down about 3 or 4 posts and check out the links on pvc
you might want to not use it then

[OI812]

If the pictures of plastic pipe exploded don't discourage you, then by all means please use plastic. If your still alive after using it, an it explodes on you please put up a post and tell us all how great pvc is for air.

By the way many local plumbing codes require DWV(drain, waste and vent) systems to be tested to 10 feet of head. 1 foot of water column is equal to .434 lbs of pressure. 10 time .434 = 4.34 psi. That system that I posted, probably had less then 10 lbs of pressure on it. Think about it.

[OH-MAN]

Hydrocarbons (oil ) and PVC do not mix. If you read the ASTM ratings on the side of the PVC I think sch. 40 is 480 psi at 72 degrees. As the temp goes up the psi rating drops very quickly.
The air temps coming out of a compressor are very high.
I do not have the tables here to show the psi drop with the temp increase but it is like a lead zepplin.
If you are using pvc ( I have seen many systems installed with it), you are pushing the luck envelope very hard.
Please do not do it.

[Double Venom]

PVC is not, "will it burst?", but WHEN!
DV

[Rex Ruby]

PVC is not, "will it burst?", but WHEN!
DV

This is great :eek: I used PVC when I set up my garage. My compressor is in the shed on the side of the garage, the PVC runs under the concrete floor, where it subs up about 2.5' I transistion to galvanized pipe. Should I rerun, which would suck as it would have to be surface or would I be OK with cutting the PVC at the floor and installing a coupling to transition to galvanized? I could even put a metal sleeve over the coupling for protection.

What do you guys recommend?

[OI812]

Gee that is a tough one. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM- At a minimum I would protect the pvc that is exposed. The stuff under the concrete will probably not harm anyone if it fails. Stuff coming through the floor? You don't want to bury galv. or black under ground. Concrete can attack both forms of pipe and eat it up. You also have to think about the moisture at the floor level and what that will do to the iron pipe.

Just curious as to why you ran the air line under the garage floor. You will get temp differentials in the air, which will create moisture in the line. Sooner or later that will fill up your air line. The compressed air will blow it out, but you are blowing moist air through your equipment for whatever.

[Rex Ruby]

Gee that is a tough one. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM- At a minimum I would protect the pvc that is exposed. The stuff under the concrete will probably not harm anyone if it fails. Stuff coming through the floor? You don't want to bury galv. or black under ground. Concrete can attack both forms of pipe and eat it up. You also have to think about the moisture at the floor level and what that will do to the iron pipe.

Just curious as to why you ran the air line under the garage floor. You will get temp differentials in the air, which will create moisture in the line. Sooner or later that will fill up your air line. The compressed air will blow it out, but you are blowing moist air through your equipment for whatever.

It was easy to rough the line in before concrete. Looks like I didn't get the right answers when I researched this 3 years ago. I do have a water separater at the end of the line.

[GearHead_1]

I just installed overhead copper with 3/4" supply and 1/2" drops in my new project. It's going to be behind the sheet rock. I'm hoping this set up proves durable.

[OI812]

I just installed overhead copper with 3/4" supply, with 1/2" drops in my new project. It's going to be behind the sheet rock. I'm hoping this set up proves durable.


You should have no problems, provided you don't run a screw through the pipe during the sheet rock phase.

[GearHead_1]

You should have no problems, provided you don't run a screw through the pipe during the sheet rock phase.

I ran these down the center of the studs and block mounted the elbows where they come through the sheet rock. The places where screws might be a problem I covered with metal plate.

[OH-MAN]

This is great :eek: I used PVC when I set up my garage. My compressor is in the shed on the side of the garage, the PVC runs under the concrete floor, where it subs up about 2.5' I transistion to galvanized pipe. Should I rerun, which would suck as it would have to be surface or would I be OK with cutting the PVC at the floor and installing a coupling to transition to galvanized? I could even put a metal sleeve over the coupling for protection.

What do you guys recommend?

The underground will not kill you if it blows. Cut it about 3" above the floor then cut a sch 80 PVC nipple in the middle so you have a slip by male thread nipple, Glue the slip end with a coupling to the pipe stubbed out of the floor. Thread your steel or copper adpt onto the sch. 80 nipple thread. Do this on both places where it comes out of the ground. If it blows under the ground you will just have to replace it anyway. The colder underground temps will drop water out of the compressed air so make sure you have some good quality filters above where it comes in to the garage.
Good luck

[js73751]

OI812 hit it dead on. Moisture is the biggest problem in air systems. The entire run should start up high and run downwards towards the last hookup with a water drain at bottom of each drop. If you ever plan on doing any painting, you will always have a moisture problem. If you are just running air tools just make sure you keep them well oiled. With your tank outside please make sure you drain the tank of moisture at the end of the day when in use. Check the diagram below for the basic concept.

www.sharpe1.com/dr-pipe.htm (http://www.sharpe1.com/dr-pipe.htm )
Joe

[Double Venom]

You guys have proven you can teach old dogs new tricks! PVC...if you use it, please have someone around after the fact to take pictures, we want to see them. Now that we have beat PVC into th ground, lets move on. One more note though on PVC, in my old shop I was going to use PVC! I had estimates for over 1,000 feet of the stuff and all the fittings, ball valves to 'drops'. Whn a plumber/friend asked me what I was doing with that much PVC? Immediately after I told him what I had in mind I had to admisinister CPR to the guy! Well not quite but almost. He then showed me some very ugly pictures of what could happen.

So, at this point, and not wanting to do it again, or get someone hurt we used 3/4 black pipe through-out the entire shop including the booth. After ten years of this system without a problem we started getting very small black dots in our "HOK", (all) paint jobs! We tried everything to find out what the heck was gong on right to the point of calling the Dupont Rep. in and giving him a ton of grief about what was going on! Turned out, (as one of the guys mentioned) our black pipe was rusted (scaling) inside and the smallest particles where making it through THREE air/water filters making their way into and on our paint work!

I had no idea that copper was a viable solution! Now I know. Even on the link above to the "SHARPE" site they show copper being used. I suppose I should have known, on all large compressors that I know of every 'feed' tube coming off the compressor head into the tank is copper!

DV...I can do copper!

[Ken Greene]

hidy ho DV,
KG From DVSF III (the guy that gave you the discs of pictures the last day at the air field)
Yup Copper is the olny way to fly. Where i work we have Alomst a mile of Copper carring air everywhere. No specs, easy to add onto, cheap to buy, and fast to install

[OI812]

Sorry DV, I didn't mean to beat it to death. People kept on bringing it up so I thought I would be a little sarcastic. I was just trying to get the point across, I guess maybe I should have said nothing.

[Double Venom]

01812,
Sarcastic!? Did you not note sarcasm in my post? ;) I think this is a good thing! Guys that were, aren't, guys that have, are now having second thoughts! I'm a heck of a preacher myself! I don't want anyone to get hurt... I think, for what that's worth, you did good!

KG, Yes I remember, and thank you! I still have that CD somewhere, and I do have all those pictures here on my computer. I hope you feel the 'Flings' were worth your time and effort. A truly valuable and worthy event. I loved every minute of every year.

DV...retired

[byrdman]

OK, so now that the PVC discussion is over, who can tell me what I need to join Schedule L copper? I've heard you need to use silver solder, and more of a torch than just a Benzomatic.

I'd also be interested in the GaragePak system that Roadster mentioned, but I'm just guessing it's much more expensive than copper? Their website gives no estimates on cost. Roadster, any comments? Or pictures!? :D

[OI812]

No need for silver solder unless you are going to extremely high PSI. Under 200 psi I believe regular solder would be just fine. I do commercial and industrial piping all week long and some jobs they require silver solder,and some require regular solder. It all comes down to how much money the Engineer wants to put in his pocket.

Silver solder requires temps in the 1500 to 1700 range. Regular solder is in the 500-750 range. Personally for an air line I would use regular solder. Silver soldering takes the temper out of the copper, and the copper becomes soft and bendable. I don't think you really want that. Don't quote me on this, but I believe silver solder is like $70/lb. A silver solder joint is stronger, but for your applications you don't need that much additonal strength. When you silver solder you have to heat the copper until it is cherry red, and let me tell you that is hot. You would need a turbo torch or an oxy-act. torch. Silver soldering is not like regular soldering either, it is a different animal. In the end stay with regular solder.

[Ken Greene]

use standard solder but let me recomend MAP gas instead of propane. Its hot, its fast and makes doing 3/4 pipe a brease. unless you have access to and acetalene plumbers torch MAP is the way to go.

[byrdman]

No need for silver solder unless you are going to extremely high PSI. Under 200 psi I believe regular solder would be just fine.

Where can I find out for sure if regular solder is enough for 175psi? Also, is schedule "K"(regular water pipe copper) enough for 175psi or do I have to use "L"? I'm planning to run 3/4".

Ken, how does map gas come? I mean, does it come in those small cylinders like for use with the little brass benzomatic torch, or is it something you need an oxy-acet rig for? I've heard of it, but I've never used it.

[Ken Greene]

yup MAP comes in small cylinders like propane. Bernzomatic makes a nice kit that comes witht the tank (yellow tank) and an auto lighter/torch head. You can find it at all theh big box lumber yards

[OI812]

byrdman

I will start working on your question of the ratings.

For your information Type L is a thinner wall then type K, L should be fine.

MAPP gas is hotter then propane, and is much better then propane. It can be used with benzomatic(sp?) torches. I'm not sure what you mean by little torches.

[byrdman]

OI812, I was thinking schedule "K" was regular old water pipe. I guess that must be "M". Got it backwards I guess.
Whatever schedule it is, is regular water pipe copper enough for 175psi compressed air, or do I have to run "L"?

Do you know where I can find out for sure if regular solder is rated for 175 psi?

Thanks to you and Ken also for the map info.

[OI812]

I took care of you, I asked the question from the experts--The copper institute. I can tell you this on one of the tables it has a listing of what tubing is good for. Type L was the last one to be listed for compressed air. As soon as I get the e-mail back from them I will post it. Hope this helps.

[OH-MAN]

OI812, I was thinking schedule "K" was regular old water pipe. I guess that must be "M". Got it backwards I guess.
Whatever schedule it is, is regular water pipe copper enough for 175psi compressed air, or do I have to run "L"?

Do you know where I can find out for sure if regular solder is rated for 175 psi?

Thanks to you and Ken also for the map info.

L is fine. Any solder will handle the pressure. What are you running that needs 175 psi?

[byrdman]

175 is the max psi of the compressor I want. I realize most tools don't require that much pressure, but it seemed to make sense to plan for it.

Looking forward to hearing back from the copper folks, OI812.

[OI812]

I e-mailed the Copper Development Association and asked the following questions and got the following answers.

Your question was: I am looking at installing a compressed air system in a garage with Type L copper (3/4") and lead-free solder. The system pressure would be 175 psi. What would be the burst pressure on the copper tube, and is regular lead free solder safe for the system. What would be the maximum safe working pressure for this system?

Response: FOR SOFT TEMPER,BURST PRESSURE IS 2935 PSI AND MAX SAFE W.P. IS 582PSI.FOR DRAWN TEMPER,THESE VALUES ARE 9300 PSI AND 1002 PSI.

Your question was: So for Type L drawn temper, and lead free solder would I be safe at installing this system? The system is compressed air at 175 psi.

Response: this should be satisfactory.

I figured you would be safe, I was sure the copper was rated for the PSI. Wasn't sure on the solder strength, but I was also sure that would be fine. So now you have it from the higher ups. Just make sure you don't use Type M. That is the thin wall copper. Thickness in copper from thinnest to thickest is M, L, K. There are some other grades, but you probably won't run across those. Hope this helps. If you want to know more about copper go to Copper Development Association (http://www.copper.org/homepage.html)

I just stopped by Canfield's site. They are a manufacture of lead free solder. Here is some info from there site that might be helpful on lead free solder.

Temperature Range - 440° - 660°
Purity - 99+%
Shear Strength - 10,000 PSI (Room Temperature); 6,000 PSI (at 250°)
Tensile Strength - 8,000 PSI (Room Temperature); 5,000 PSI (at 250°)
Density - 0.265 Pounds Per Cubic Inch

[byrdman]

wow! Now that's service. Thanks a million for the legwork there.

I have to say, I kinda wondered who copper.org was to be answering these questions. So, in looking around on their website, I found this under the "Mission" statement:

4. CDA represents the U.S. copper and brass industry as a central authoritative source of technical data and information on the selection, fabrication and use of copper and its alloys.

Guess that ought to do!

This is a relief. Using regular solder sounds a heck of a lot easier. Thanks to all who responded.

[sca037]

Great discussion!

Thanks to all the advice here, I've decided to go with 3/4" schedule L copper. Maybe I'll do the drops in 1/2".....or just do it all in 3/4" to simplify the hardware issues, since the co$t difference for my project would be small.
Now, I would really like to utilize the disconnect ports that have a line pressure release (like the Garage-Pak system has)...........where can I find these?

As the originator of this thread, I've gotta say you guys rock :rocker:
Brian

[OH-MAN]

175 is the max psi of the compressor I want. I realize most tools don't require that much pressure, but it seemed to make sense to plan for it.

Looking forward to hearing back from the copper folks, OI812.


After you get everything setup, turn the pressure regulator down to the max pressure you will need. If you only need 80psi do not run the compressor up to 175. This will alow it to make more cfm and recover quicker. Shorter run times make the compressor happier.

[TuckinToyz]

My shop is just about to be built and I'm going with copper lines type L. I work in HVAC and mainly mechanical systems in hospitals. We used copper for all the medical gas lines (oxygen, etc), so it's safe enough for your shop. As for pressure, when I install new equipment at peoples homes, I 'leak test' the soft copper line set with Nitrogen at 350psi and it holds pressure, including the joints. I braze the copper with an oxygen/acetylene torch setup and stick solder-it's melting point is 840 degrees and it is strong if done properly. I do however have a buddy (who does the same work I do) with a 40x60 shop and he used 1" pvc running all around his shop and it seems to work fine. It has been in for several years. Dunno

[OI812]

I do however have a buddy (who does the same work I do) with a 40x60 shop and he used 1" pvc running all around his shop and it seems to work fine. It has been in for several years. Dunno

The PVC issue is dead, there is no reason to discuss it any further. I have posted pictures up of what CAN happen with PVC and compressed air. Most of all you should know being in the trades. I am also in the trade and only work on industrial, commercial buildings. I also know that just because something is done doesn't make it correct. The manufacture doesn't recommend it, the engineers don't recommend it, so who else do we need to contact to prove the point that it is not a good practice.

It might have been in for 2 years, and it might be fine for the next 20 years. Then again he might slip with a hammer in the cold, hit the line and it explodes send little pieces into his body. If he has PVC buried in his body, I bet he won't think the PVC was the way to go then.

I will say it one last time if you want to use PVC go ahead, it's your life.

[TuckinToyz]

My shop is just about to be built and I'm going with copper lines type L.

If you read my post, you see what my choice is. All I did was say I know someone who has done it-you don't have to act like a .... moderator.

[Luckydevil]

Please don't take it personal, he's just looking out for you and your friend with the pvc. A lot of people use pvc for airlines without knowing the risk associated. The last thing any of us want to hear is that someone got hurt by it. Good job doing it the right way and going with copper in your shop.

[Double Venom]

Luke,
Well explained!
DV...

[OI812]

If you read my post, you see what my choice is. All I did was say I know someone who has done it-you don't have to act like a .... moderator.

I apologize for sounding kind of harsh. As Luke said I don't want anyone getting hurt. That is my main goal. I did notice you used the proper material and I applauded you for that.

I actually do have a couple of questions for you. You said you are using and oxy-act. torch. Are you using a rose bud to solder with that? You said the solder you are using melts at 840. Most silver solders melt in excessive of 1000 degrees. Are you using stay silver or bridget solder? I know those solders have a higher melting point, not sure where they are at. Is there a reason you are using those solders? I know those type of solder are about 4 times the cost of regular solder.

[liquidneon]

What about buried lines? Im planning on putting my compressor in the yard tool shed about 100ft away from the garage and running a line underground. Being in michigan Ill have to deal with ground freeze issues. Any recommended depth to bury the line? L or K copper for the line be ok? What about temp change issues???

[GearHead_1]

Having worked in a shop that had buried lines I have an opinion to share. They are a moisture magnet and very difficult to clear the water out of. Sorry, I know that's probably not what you wanted to hear.

[OI812]

Having worked in a shop that had buried lines I have an opinion to share. They are a moisture magnet and very difficult to clear the water out of. Sorry, I know that's probably not what you wanted to hear.


I agree 110% with that. If you are going to bury the lines, you should go below the frost line. If you don't want to do that then you styrofoam over the top and on the sides of the line. In the end moisture will still be a problem.

[Wile1Coyote]

I agree buried lines will give you a moisture headache

[bdaz442]

I was planning using PVC in my new shop. I went to several web sites by typing in compressed air piping on google. these are the web addresses.
http://www.ecompressedair.com/library/piping.shtml
http://www.sharpe1.com/dr-pipe.htm
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Compressed_air_delivery_system.html
IMHO I would not use PVC, I'm using 3/4" copper for my main line with 1/2" drops.

[Luckydevil]

Good links! I'm adding them to my other compressed air resources post.

[OI812]

bdaz442

Great links with good diagrams. This should help a lot of people out.

[rickairmedic]

For those of you's using copper for air lines in your garages wanting too know what type of solder too use I am in the HVAC industry and the standard today in that industry is a product called staybright #8 it is a soft solder and has a low melting temp but is far stronger than standard plumbing type solder .You wont find it in any box stores but if you look in your local yellow pages for HVAC suppliers you should be able too find someone local who sells it . We quit using stick silver years ago due too the impurities on the inside of the pipe that result from the higher temps needed too work with it . The average presure on the high side of a residential HVAC system is between 225 and 250 pounds of pressure although I have seen the little buggers running at 400 too 450 :shocking: . THe new puron systems have a high pressure side reading in the 350 too 450 PSI mark and so far no problems with the staybright#8 with it either .I am getting ready too run air lines in my garage as well and its what I will be using on my copper .MOST important part of soldering copper pipes together is making sure the joints are CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN and tight :bounce:

Rick

[OH-MAN]

Any standard solder will work . No need to braze it
Since it is not for water you can even use 50/50 with the deadly lead in it, if you can find it. Most solders you can get now are of the 95/5 type and they are fine as well .
Just use a good flux and clean the joints before you do it. If you insist on brazing it will oxidize the inside of the pipe and leave a black flakey crap in the pipe. To prevent this you can purge the line with nitrogen or argon. Not worth the trouble.
Just soft solder it.

[rickairmedic]

OH Man the staybright#8 I was refering too is a soft solder it is used primarily in HVAC work where we dont want any crap in the lines and have become too lazy :bounce: too purge with nitrogen


Rick

[bmwpower]

Ok, this info is great!

One question: How do you slope the pipe and still maintain plumb drops? One diagram mentions 4" drop per 50 feet. Can you simply bend the copper pipe to maintain is plumbness? Or do they make angled tees for such an installation?

[OI812]

A tee and one 90 will get you a plumb drop. Tee into main, and pipe over to wall and drop with a 90. The 90 is what will allow it to go plumb again.

[bmwpower]

Ahh. OK, got it now.

[bdaz442]

i have ask about this on other forums. All I can say is I'm using copper. Its got to be better that galvanized, and much easier than Black pipe. Cheaper too. Thats My 2 cents. LOL.

[OH-MAN]

i have ask about this on other forums. All I can say is I'm using copper. Its got to be better that galvanized, and much easier than Black pipe. Cheaper too. Thats My 2 cents. LOL.


:thumbup: :rocker:
My favorite

[kartracer55]

I am in the middle of installing my system as well. What sort of CFM does your compressor put out? If its one of the craftsman portables that puts out liek 5 cfm and your going to be using a nialer with it, no need to be running over 1/2 line. Our new compressor puts out 20CFM, so we ran/are running 3/4 line. We used copper, and no need to silver solder, 95/9 tin antimony solder will hold very well. 50/50 would probably work as well, but I wouldt andvise it. Silver solder is a P-I-T-A and is overkilling it. if your talkin about a compressor that puts out like 25 or better cfm at 90, up to 1 inch. We Ran type L copper. threaded is a pain in the ass if you either A dont work with it for a living, or B dont have the threading tool to make custom lengths.

As far as in the walls or out of the walls, It all depends on which you like better. out side the walls will give it an industrial look, and you wont need to tear anything down to put it up. Also, its a big problem if a sweated joint ever fails. Just remember for a drop, install the T facing UP and loop it out of the top and around. Then t the hose and regulator out of the side, and put a small valve on the bottom of the drop. The t out the top will cause the drop to only pick up dry air. Dont cheap out with a filter either, They will keep your tools going strong for a long time.

Remember to use hydraulic or High pressure braided steel line between the lines and your compressor to eliminate vibrations. Secure the lines frequently to help eliminate the vibration which will cause sweated joints to fail over time.

Any other questions, PM me.

The the quality of SPEEDAIRE filters/regs from grainger seem to be very good, so if you have an account or know somebody who does, I highly recomend them.

Jim

[motorheadjohn]

I can understand the tidiness of running air lines inside the wall. But I moved from Calif to Virginia in late 2003. My air system (3-car garage) was done with L copper and brass unions every 8-12 foot and channel to mount everything. I was able to take that system down in less than 2 hours, including dumping the compressor, disconnecting it, and unbolting it from the floor. You spend a lot of money building your system, would be a shame not to take it with you if you moved. Not everybody is into shops and working on stuff, the next guy may not view it as anything of value when bidding on your home.
:sad:

[bmwpower]

Not everybody is into shops and working on stuff, the next guy may not view it as anything of value when bidding on your home.
:sad:

Then he must be a woman then.

[kartracer55]

Then he must be a woman then.

I think thats about right then isnt it?

Jim

[cunninglinguist]

Hey guys, new member here. I just did my garage with copper lines with 3 outlets. I wanted to ask if I should have 1 hose only for the 3 outlets and move the hose around wherever i needed it or 1 hose per outlet. I'm not sure if 3 hoses will get in the way.

[kartracer55]

We acutaly just finished plumbing our garage today. We put all of our drops on the cieling, and used big 3/8 body quick connects, so the hoses wont be in the way when not in use. It all depends on where your drops are really, and how much room you have. If you have your drops on the wall, and can spare some wall space, go right ahead and put in hose reels. If your shop isnt that big, Id get some 25ft coilhoses, and you will be able to simply hang them up. If you could get an overal picture of your shop up so we can see the drop locations, I think we could better help you.

Jim

[cunninglinguist]

We acutaly just finished plumbing our garage today. We put all of our drops on the cieling, and used big 3/8 body quick connects, so the hoses wont be in the way when not in use. It all depends on where your drops are really, and how much room you have. If you have your drops on the wall, and can spare some wall space, go right ahead and put in hose reels. If your shop isnt that big, Id get some 25ft coilhoses, and you will be able to simply hang them up. If you could get an overal picture of your shop up so we can see the drop locations, I think we could better help you.

Jim

Heres my little corner of the world:

http://www.members.shaw.ca/eddietam/83toyota/shop.jpg

Theres an outlet left and right of the scissorlift workbench and 1 right beside the fire extinguisher next of the wooden workbench.

[kartracer55]

Ahh, thanks for the pictures. What I would do, If I were you, is get a big 3/8 BODY coupler and stick it right at the drop over by the workbench there, and get a short coil/memory type hose. Nothin special, but 3/8 Id to run an air tool/ you see to be at a lack of space in that general area, and so being able to store the hose elsewhere would be a BIG plus.

As for the drop on the wall, To the right of the lift, I would get something like this...

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=200310797&R=200310797

In whatever size/style that fits you needs. Id also Do another quick coupler set up on that center post there like over by the workbench.

The other thing I would consider doing is maybe sticking one of these...

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=23151&R=23151

Up high on that center post, probably facing outwards, towards the garage doors, or on the ceiling right by it. Get a 50 footer, and you will be able to use it all over the garage, and have it up high and out of the way when your not using it, and stick a quick coupler on the drop on the wall there, so you have the option of hooking up another hose.

You will be able to get yourself setup with a few big connectors and maybe a handcrank reel and a coilhose or two for about 100, maybe a bit more. The second methodwill probably be closer to 200, if not a little more.

Maybe this will help in you making your decisions. After reading my posts, You might begin to get the idea that I have some sort of fetish with coilhoses, but let me tell you how handy they really are. My regulators have two gauge ports on them, and they give you a plug for the one you dont use. so what I did on the regulator that hangs down int he center of the garage, is connect a 1/4 id coilhose for inflating tires, blowguns and that sort of thing. they are much easier to work with than your usual big hoses for air tools. This is another thing to think about. I would considder installing a permanent little coilhose in the front of the garage for these basic tasks. They are like $10-15 from home desperate.


I didnt notice any filters or regulators on your system. but maybe they just cant be seen in the picture. I can express how important they really are in saving your air tools. Never run unregulated air in an airtool motor, the high PSI will kill them in no time. On the drops, Id also recomend installing little valves at the very bottom to get rid of any other moisture or anything in the lines like that. Ill get you some pictures of what we did.

I think I covered everything I wanted to say, but maybe Ill add a bit more. Feel free to ask me to clarify what I said for you, as it is late and Im tired, so what I write might not be what I want to say lol

Jim

[Ironpile]

Stupid or lucky? I have used pvc shedule 40 3/4 in in 3 different shops with only one problem. I was heating my paint booth with a propane heater on a really cold day and the room got to hot an burst a pipe. Turns out the connection was not cleaned properly when installed. I go overhead ,lot of length,several drops with petcocks below the outlet and a moisture trap. Painted lot of cars with no real issues with water. I do,as a precaution turn off the power when I leave for the nite. I`ve had more problems dropping heavy stuf on my high dollar hoses, Jerry :eyecrazy: :thumbup:

[trovato]

The main issue is that when PVC fails, it does so rather explosively. What you're saying is like telling me you never wear your seat belt and you haven't died yet. Or you smoke two packs a day and you haven't got lung cancer yet. There are lots of things you can get away with for a while. Maybe forever. Doesn't make it a good idea.

[OI812]

The main issue is that when PVC fails, it does so rather explosively. What you're saying is like telling me you never wear your seat belt and you haven't died yet. Or you smoke two packs a day and you haven't got lung cancer yet. There are lots of things you can get away with for a while. Maybe forever. Doesn't make it a good idea.


THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gb387]

The main issue is that when PVC fails, it does so rather explosively. What you're saying is like telling me you never wear your seat belt and you haven't died yet. Or you smoke two packs a day and you haven't got lung cancer yet. There are lots of things you can get away with for a while. Maybe forever. Doesn't make it a good idea.


Well said!

[kartracer55]

Yeah I agree. I dont care if you have been painting cars for longer than Ive been around, and own $500 sata paint guns. The point is, that PVC has been known to fail explosivly. OSHA has a bunch of regs on it as well. Why not do it Right and safely the first time by using metal??? PVC might be cheaper, but really, when your saftey is involved, its not a good idea to cheap out. you wouldnt buy a motorcycle helmet for a set of tires from HF if they sold them would you???

Jim