Oil Spectrogram Analysis

[r6_cannibal]

I'm looking for a recommendation on a company that can do this specifically for oil from gasoline engines.
someone recently posted this kit for aviation...
http://www.avshop.com/product/ITEM5933/20
...but i'm not sure if that'll work with gasoline engines since air planes typically have kerosene in their fuel. I'm not sure if the machines are calibrated based on certain oil types etc.
The more I think about it, the more it seems like it's basically a machine that gives a readout based on what's in the oil regardless of the engine fuel type, but I really have no idea.

My wife has a car where the oil changes are dictated by the computer and run about every 5k miles or so. I'm curious to see how accurate the computer is on dictating the intervals of oil changes so I wanted to send in some oil to get analysed. I have done this before for a car but it wasn't nearly as cheap as that kit, and I can't remember the name of the company that ran the report (still haven't unpacked the box that has the report filed away).

Thanks in advance :beer:

[Hiball]

I'm looking for a recommendation on a company that can do this specifically for oil from gasoline engines.
someone recently posted this kit for aviation...
http://www.avshop.com/product/ITEM5933/20
...but i'm not sure if that'll work with gasoline engines since air planes typically have kerosene in their fuel. I'm not sure if the machines are calibrated based on certain oil types etc.
The more I think about it, the more it seems like it's basically a machine that gives a readout based on what's in the oil regardless of the engine fuel type, but I really have no idea.

My wife has a car where the oil changes are dictated by the computer and run about every 5k miles or so. I'm curious to see how accurate the computer is on dictating the intervals of oil changes so I wanted to send in some oil to get analysed. I have done this before for a car but it wasn't nearly as cheap as that kit, and I can't remember the name of the company that ran the report (still haven't unpacked the box that has the report filed away).

Thanks in advance :beer:

I never use or rely on that oil life feature. Im not saying i dont run upwards to 5000 miles between oil changes but it varies on what kind of driving im doing Highway, Towing, Start and Stop etc. I normally change oil around 3500 miles in my truck.

[r6_cannibal]

I never use or rely on that oil life feature. Im not saying i dont run upwards to 5000 miles between oil changes but it varies on what kind of driving im doing Highway, Towing, Start and Stop etc. I normally change oil around 3500 miles in my truck.

Same here, I do my oil at 3500 for my vehicles. Wife however likes to go by the computer on her car.The topic of the computer on the car telling when the oil needs to be changed is highly debated between her and I. I figured running an analysis report at the next oil change should give us a decent answer. It's about time for the car to get one anyway as it's cresting 50k miles and those reports are good insight to the health of the engine.

[MotoDave]

I've used Blackstone labs a few times: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

At work we use Oil Analysis Labs (http://www.oillab.com/), I think they offer a consumer test kit but they mostly do fleet vehicles.

[HandyManny]

A normally asperated aircraft engine like a Lycoming or a Continental is piston driven and uses 100LL fuel or MOGAS (unleaded fuel). It's a gasoline engine. Only turbine driven engines use Jet fuel (refined kerosene). So the aircraft spectrometers used on piston driven prop aircraft will help with automotive gasoline engines as well.

Spectrogram analysis is really used to determine engine wear and determine where it is occuring before tearing the engine apart. And to determine the wear trend at certain intervals over time. Basically to get an idea of what's failing in the engine first and what needs to be repaired or replaced soon without taking it apart first. Don't bother using spectrograms for determining oil change intervals. Just follow a schedule.

As far as oil changes in an automotive vehicle - I do it religiously every 3000 miles or 6 months, whichever occures first. I never use synthetic unless the engine specifically requires it. Otherwise it's a total waste of money, but that's going to open up a can of worms here.

[r6_cannibal]

HandyManny: Thanks for the insight on the piston aviation engines.
I'm probably wrong in thinking spectrograph for determining the oil change intervals, the report from the company I can't find gave a breakdown of the condition of the oil including detergents and indicated that the oil could have been run longer...but I have no idea what test they ran to determine this.

MotoDave: thanks for the recommendations!

[66HertzClone]

One time will tell you very little, the first test will establish a baseline for you, subsequent test will tell you want you want to know. There is tons of information about this here, Bob the Oil guy (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php) Scroll down and you will see several forums that talk about testing.

I'm going to be doing this soon, I drive an 08 535Xi, this engine has twin turbos, and direct fuel injection, the heat beat the hell out of oil, and there is evidence of fuel dilution. The "light" comes on close to 15k miles, far too long. This engine doesn't even have a dipstick, a sensor checks the level and according to the supplied info "tests" the oil quality and changes the interval based on driving habits. I am going to collect a sample,send it off for testing, then collect a second sample when I change it the next time. The opinions and information on the Bob Oil guy forum point to the oil in my engine really taking a beating, the prevailing opinion is that the oils recommended should be changed far more frequently than the light indicates.

[MotoDave]

I have used the Blackstone Labs kits a few times. I have an 03 Subaru WRX, which is also an oil cooled turbo motor, and hard on oil. The factory manual specified a change interval of 3750 miles, and I was curious to see whether my oil had much metal particulate content, and what blackstone thought the oil change interval should be. To my relief my oil looks pretty good after 3750 miles, and blackstone recommended pushing the change interval out. I tried 4000 and then 5250 miles, which was what blackstone recommended without any noticeable change in the measurements. Interesting to find out, but I have since gone back to 3750 miles, I figure it is cheap insurance and peace of mind.

I'll try to see if I can upload one of the reports here if people are interested in what they tell you.

http://www.stormracetech.com/D58842.jpg

[r6_cannibal]

One time will tell you very little, the first test will establish a baseline for you, subsequent test will tell you want you want to know. There is tons of information about this here, Bob the Oil guy (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php) Scroll down and you will see several forums that talk about testing.


Thanks for the link, looks like I've got some reading to do:thumbup:



http://www.stormracetech.com/D58842.jpg

Thanks Dave! I think I'll be going with that same company to start doing tests of the engine. That's pretty cool they give you a summary of what they find as well.

Thanks again for the help :beer:

[Elroy]

Elroy's employer utilizes the services of Analysts, Inc. on a annual basis to monitor the oil condition in their numerous press brakes, turret punches and material handling equipment.

http://www.analystsinc.com

Don't have a report handy, but recall they report on metals, acids and water as well as viscosity

Lead, copper, chrome, iron, tin, bismuth would all register. A report that is high in silicon is typical of "dirt".

The tests and reports are like a $100. Fees associated with multiple samples submitted simultaneously drop rapidly.

A single test would help identify a major issue that you would probably already be aware of. Multiple tests establish trends that a single test won't. As stated previously, history is more valuable than a single snap shot test.

[krismoriah]

on bob is the oil guy go to the "Virgin Oil Analysis - PCMO/HDEO " link. The top thread right now is that a guy sent the same VIRGIN oil to several different labs and got several different reports. Blackstone even restested the same sample and got 2 different reports.

If you spend a couple of weeks on that board you will realize that most any top tier conventional oil (pennzoil, valvoline, castrol etc) will easily go 5000 miles without worry.

If you want to get really serious about your oil changes...read another week or so on oil filters.

If you want to take my word on it, go with Pennzoil and a Purolator Pure One oil filter and be done with it. Pennzoil gives great analysis consistant, and the Pure One is one of the best bang for your buck filters you can buy.

Go 5000 miles with confidence on a $16 oil change.

IF you want to cheap out just a hair..go with the best bang for your buck combo..which is Motorcraft oil (TropArctic/Kendall) and a Walmart Filter for $15

[speed bump]

on bob is the oil guy go to the "Virgin Oil Analysis - PCMO/HDEO " link. The top thread right now is that a guy sent the same VIRGIN oil to several different labs and got several different reports. Blackstone even restested the same sample and got 2 different reports.

If you spend a couple of weeks on that board you will realize that most any top tier conventional oil (pennzoil, valvoline, castrol etc) will easily go 5000 miles without worry.

If you want to get really serious about your oil changes...read another week or so on oil filters.

If you want to take my word on it, go with Pennzoil and a Purolator Pure One oil filter and be done with it. Pennzoil gives great analysis consistant, and the Pure One is one of the best bang for your buck filters you can buy.

Go 5000 miles with confidence on a $16 oil change.

IF you want to cheap out just a hair..go with the best bang for your buck combo..which is Motorcraft oil (TropArctic/Kendall) and a Walmart Filter for $15

Pennzoil may look good if you send it to some lab but when you open up an engine you can always tell its been running Qwacker state or Pennzoil because of the sludge buildup on the inside of it. I will agree with the Purolator filters though.

[caper]

Most places I've worked sent the oil samples to the local Cat Dealership.They usually have or have access to oil testing equipment.I can't recall the prices but they couldn't have been overly expensive since we used to do it on a yearly basis for alot of equipment.They usually sent back a report showing the amount of contamination and what type of contamination such as antifreeze,water or whatever.We usualy sent gearbox and differential oils yearly.

[Underdog]

Used to do oil analysis on gasoline aircraft engines. Mostly looking for silicon (dirt) air filter, induction leak, or to see if the engine was making metal, ( rings, cylinders, piston pins, bearings). In a diesel mostly looking for dirt, antifreeze, diesel dilution and metal. I always thought the best test of an aircraft engines health was to cut open and inspect the oil filter for metal and carbon deposits which was done at every oil change.

[hydramatic]

wix filter, and 3500 oil and filter intervals last forever...depending on who`s driving...

[Zorro13]

Am always wondering why the US cars need oil changes every 3,000-5,000 miles while European and Asian cars driven require it only every 15,000 some even only every 20,000 miles. The average load profile in Europe should be even harder (rated power on the Autobahn, much more stop'n'go and short trip drives).

The only thing I can imagine is that the US engines still rely on designs from 20-30 years ago where such change-cycles were also common on Asian and European imports. Or because the US customers are used to this habit and are 'trained' to pay for these frequent changes.

Given the fact that a Mobil 1 (or any other quality brand) is the same in the US and in Europe I simply refused to adopt the US carmakers recommendations and stayed on my European change cycles. Had no problems with them so far.

[rhandwor]

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/whatisoilanalysis.htm

[paranoid56]

I have used the Blackstone Labs kits a few times. I have an 03 Subaru WRX, which is also an oil cooled turbo motor, and hard on oil. The factory manual specified a change interval of 3750 miles, and I was curious to see whether my oil had much metal particulate content, and what blackstone thought the oil change interval should be. To my relief my oil looks pretty good after 3750 miles, and blackstone recommended pushing the change interval out. I tried 4000 and then 5250 miles, which was what blackstone recommended without any noticeable change in the measurements. Interesting to find out, but I have since gone back to 3750 miles, I figure it is cheap insurance and peace of mind.

I'll try to see if I can upload one of the reports here if people are interested in what they tell you.

http://www.stormracetech.com/D58842.jpg

i also use blackstone on my STI. great company

[tcianci]

I know most people here will laugh at me but the MOST important thing about motor oil is to have some, cheap, expensive, clean or dirty, it pretty much doesn' amount to a hill of beans..till it's gone, then you have about 30 seconds left on your engine. I have used the oil life monitor on my 2000 GMC for the past 9 years, 180,000 miles and that engine has never burned, leaked or otherwise used a drop of oil, it always looks nice and medium brown when it's changed. The oil life monitor does vary the interval depending on the type of driving I have been doing. It seems to go between 3500 miles to almost 5000.
I think the biggest thing to come down the pike in engine and oil longevity is fuel injection. Since the advent of fuel injection, over rich mixtures, cylinder wall washdown, subsequent oil dilution and the wear associated with these conditions are virtually gone. The oil has a chance to stay intact and do its job. Also todays' detergent oils do a great job of keeping dirt and other particular contaminants in suspension in the oil so they can be removed by the filter.

[nate379]

I have an 03 WRX as well and it's not oil cooled...

I have used the Blackstone Labs kits a few times. I have an 03 Subaru WRX, which is also an oil cooled turbo motor, and hard on oil. The factory manual specified a change interval of 3750 miles, and I was curious to see whether my oil had much metal particulate content, and what blackstone thought the oil change interval should be. To my relief my oil looks pretty good after 3750 miles, and blackstone recommended pushing the change interval out. I tried 4000 and then 5250 miles, which was what blackstone recommended without any noticeable change in the measurements. Interesting to find out, but I have since gone back to 3750 miles, I figure it is cheap insurance and peace of mind.

I'll try to see if I can upload one of the reports here if people are interested in what they tell you.

http://www.stormracetech.com/D58842.jpg

[HandyManny]

Am always wondering why the US cars need oil changes every 3,000-5,000 miles while European and Asian cars driven require it only every 15,000 some even only every 20,000 miles. The average load profile in Europe should be even harder (rated power on the Autobahn, much more stop'n'go and short trip drives).

The only thing I can imagine is that the US engines still rely on designs from 20-30 years ago where such change-cycles were also common on Asian and European imports. Or because the US customers are used to this habit and are 'trained' to pay for these frequent changes.

Given the fact that a Mobil 1 (or any other quality brand) is the same in the US and in Europe I simply refused to adopt the US carmakers recommendations and stayed on my European change cycles. Had no problems with them so far.


When using synthetic oil such as Mobile 1, it is possible to go 15,000 miles between oil changes. A lot of European automobiles with high performance engines do require the use of synthetic oil as does many high performance American made cars.

However, your average performance automobile engine, especially most American cars does not require a synthetic oil. Don't get the idea that Americans have been "trained" into paying for frequent oil changes. Those synthetic requiring Euro cars cost a pretty penny to have the oil changed, and if you do it yourself you are still paying more for Mobile 1.

I do all the preventataive manitenence in all our family vehicles every 3000 to 5000 miles. But usually try to stick with 3000 mile intervals. That boils down to two vehicles at the moment. None require synthetic oil. Cost per oil change (oil and filter) for me currently ranges from $15 to $18 per vehicle, depending on what good sales or offeres I'm finding and which one of the vehicles I'm servicing at the moment. The drawback for me is that I put 3000miles on my Grand Cherokee every 2 months. My wife takes 5 to 6 months to reach that in her Toyota.

I only have these requirments:
Oil - Castrol GTX or Valvoline (which ever is on sale) 5W30 & 10W30
Filters - Purolator Premium Plus oil filters. Air filters can be Purolator or Wix.

[MotoDave]

D'oh, you're 100% right. The turbo is Oil lubed, but cooled by coolant.

I have an 03 WRX as well and it's not oil cooled...

I'm a big fan of following manufacturer's maintenance schedules. The engineers that work those up know what they're doing :)

[sberry]

I know most people here will laugh at me but the MOST important thing about motor oil is to have some, cheap, expensive, clean or dirty, it pretty much doesn' amount to a hill of beans..till it's gone, then you have about 30 seconds left on your engine. I have used the oil life monitor on my 2000 GMC for the past 9 years, 180,000 miles and that engine has never burned, leaked or otherwise used a drop of oil, it always looks nice and medium brown when it's changed. The oil life monitor does vary the interval depending on the type of driving I have been doing. It seems to go between 3500 miles to almost 5000.
I think the biggest thing to come down the pike in engine and oil longevity is fuel injection. Since the advent of fuel injection, over rich mixtures, cylinder wall washdown, subsequent oil dilution and the wear associated with these conditions are virtually gone. The oil has a chance to stay intact and do its job. Also todays' detergent oils do a great job of keeping dirt and other particular contaminants in suspension in the oil so they can be removed by the filter.
I quote this whole thing because most of it is right on the button. Many people worry way too much about oil changes. My secretary loses sleep if she runs over 3K, changed it out 50 miles before trading it in, ha. I find that the less they know about cars the more they worry about this one issue, tires flat, several more important issues, air filter clogged, run it till it grinds the rotor off the brakes and cant understand why, after all I changed the oil every 3K. I go with the "we drove the crap out of it" and its already on the rack theory most of the time. Got a couple that run a couple years on a change. I agree about fuel inj, has made all the difference. My benchmark on normal cars anymore is 5K and we live in a dirt hole.
I find stuff all the time where the air filter housings are not installed or missing gaskets, etc. Could never change the oil and it wont amount to a week of that.

[nate379]

I run Schaeffer Oil in my stuff and they have free oil sampling. I have almost 20,000 miles on the oil in my truck, still is fine.

I try to the change the oil in my Jeep once a year though, since if I went with 3000 miles it would be at least 3-4 years. This year I put maybe 75 miles on it.

[HandyManny]

I quote this whole thing because most of it is right on the button. Many people worry way too much about oil changes. My secretary loses sleep if she runs over 3K, changed it out 50 miles before trading it in, ha. I find that the less they know about cars the more they worry about this one issue, tires flat, several more important issues, air filter clogged, run it till it grinds the rotor off the brakes and cant understand why, after all I changed the oil every 3K. I go with the "we drove the crap out of it" and its already on the rack theory most of the time. Got a couple that run a couple years on a change. I agree about fuel inj, has made all the difference. My benchmark on normal cars anymore is 5K and we live in a dirt hole.
I find stuff all the time where the air filter housings are not installed or missing gaskets, etc. Could never change the oil and it wont amount to a week of that.

I fully agree. Oil changes are very important, but there are a whole lot of other things that need attention on a vehicle as well. An automobile is a system and many things need to be taken care of on schedule in order for the whole machine to operate properly. I change my oil every 3000 miles. Some times I do go to 5000 miles. A coupel of times I went to 8000 miles, just got lazy I guess. I drive my vehicles until they start costing me per year in maitenence what a new car payment will cost per year for the equivelent vehicle. I've always gotten at the very least 175,000 miles from my vehicles within the last 30 years before that starts to happen. And I drive American:thumbup:

[HandyManny]

I try to the change the oil in my Jeep once a year though, since if I went with 3000 miles it would be at least 3-4 years. This year I put maybe 75 miles on it.

You are so darn lucky. I wish I drove my Jeep this infrequently.:bowdown:

But if I did I'd still wouldn't go beyond a year without changing the oil.

[nate379]

It's street legal but not that streetable. I built it for off roading. Just been super busy and it's pretty easy to stay at home and get stuff done vs burning $50-60 in gas.

[r6_cannibal]

I feel like I took the first step into a larger world. Thanks everyone for your insight and recommendations.

I started reading up on oils and basically how they function along with their variables thanks to bobistheoilguy.com and related texts. I've learned quite a bit on oils but still have a -lot- of reading to do. I learned of an oil that I can use that piqued my interest made by castrol that is fully synthetic, 5w30, and made in germany. (german castrol) I currently use redline but only because that's what most everyone uses at the track. I feel much better after seeing actual used oil analysis as to why people tend to like that brand, Amsoil, and the other top oil brands.

As far as filters I'm guilty of brand recognition. I always went with bosch filters simply because I figured they wouldn't put their name on something that isn't good. I'm still doing a lot of reading on filters as well, but I want to try switching to a Purilator pure one filter after I do the first few oil analysis on the bosch filter to see how the bosch stack up on future reports.

Air filters seem to go hand in hand too with the rest of this stuff from the reading I've done. I've always gone with wix filters because they "were the best" but I had no real scientific data to go on. I feel like I can do my own real world tests now once I incorporate oil analysis into my maintenance schedule

The original oil test I did a few years ago (which i can't find) was $80, way pricey compared to the 22 bucks for the blackstone labs test. I unfortunately just sold that car about a month ago. I always used the OEM suggested filters and oil and would have really liked to do a test with different oil and air filters to see how they would fair against the stock Mann filters to check how good they really are.

Thanks again to everyone for your insight and opinions. I almost feel high with all this new information :beer:

[HandyManny]

Bosch here in the USA is merely just a big expensive brand name. Many Bosch parts products sold in the USA are not even made by Bosch, but are rather a rebranded product made by other established manufacurers. The few times I ever used Bosch oil filters in my vehicles is when I had a buy-one-get-one-free coupon. In Europe, especially Germany, this rebranding is not the same situation there. Bosch tends to produce it's own products over there.

I buy Purolator oil filters for a few reasons, one of which is good quality at a reasonable price. The other is that they cost less than MOPAR, yet they make the MOPAR equivelent for my Jeep. They are also readily available through Advance Auto Parts, which happens to have two stores, both a very short drive from my home. I'd still likely drive out of my way if I had to to buy Purolator oil filters. Having said that, I have used Fram, but do try to avoid Fram if I can help it.

My brother has only ever used Fram oil filters in his jeeps, along with Pennzoil, quakerstate, valvoline, whatever convensional oil is the least expensive. He's never had engine trouble or damage due to sludge. Has driven his vehicles well beyond 200,000 miles. He's done all the scheduled maintenace himself, everything, not just oil changes, all on time too. Same goes for whatever repairs were needed. I guess Fram isn't as bad as everyone thinks, neither is Pennzoil for that matter. But, these might be fighting words to some.:shocking:

The important thing is that you do the proper maintenance when needed and replace things when they need replacing.

[r6_cannibal]

I was actually just looking to see if bosch made their own filters or if they had them sourced out. Everything I've seen say Purolator makes their filters, but so far i've only found people on forums saying that, nothing concrete other than hear-say.

I do agree that regular maintenance is one of the best thing you can do to a car.

[tcianci]

Another thing I was thinking about is the 15,000 mile intervals with synthetic oil. If you have a car under warranty, and you exceed the specified oil change intervals, no matter what type of oil you are using and even if God did the work on it himself, you are SOL if you have a problem with that engine.

R6... I'm glad you are happy with all the information you have gathered here but I'm not sure if you caught the main point...the oil testing you are talking about won't tell you anything about the oil or filter, it indirectly tells you about the condition of your engine and equating the condition of your engine to the performance of the lubricant alone is like wearing blinders, you need to evaluate the big picture.
You mentioned the guys at the track, while it may be possible that special oils exhibit some desirable characteristics in a race condition, the take-away here is that (with the exception of 4 cyl. Mopars) you can't wear out or break any modern engine if you just follow the specified maintenance recommendations.

[Merkava_4]

I'm looking for a recommendation on a company that can do this specifically for oil from gasoline engines.


Terry Dyson.

[malibu101]

.......................
.................................................. ......
............................................. You mentioned the guys at the track, while it may be possible that special oils exhibit some desirable characteristics in a race condition, the take-away here is that (with the exception of 4 cyl. Mopars) you can't wear out or break any modern engine if you just follow the specified maintenance recommendations.
I agree with the above. Engine failures or troubles related to oil issues on modern engines are slim, assuming the norm that it is changed at least when recommended and not run low, abused, etc.
My above statement goes out tye window with anything "exotic" like a turbo or such.

[Elroy]

I agree with the above. Engine failures or troubles related to oil issues are slim assuming the norm that it is changed at least when recommended and not run low, abused, etc.

True, Unless you put a garden hose in the hand of a moron:

http://mustangforums.com/forum/5-0l-general-discussion/368307-im-done-with-this-car.html

Can you believe there are such idiots in this world.

[Zorro13]

I was actually just looking to see if bosch made their own filters or if they had them sourced out. Everything I've seen say Purolator makes their filters, but so far i've only found people on forums saying that, nothing concrete other than hear-say.

I do agree that regular maintenance is one of the best thing you can do to a car.

I'm pretty sure Bosch owns Purlator. They bought them a while ago. In fact Bosch filters in the US are the same as in Europe, at least for the European and Asian cars. May be different for the US brands, there they may rebadge Purlators.

[r6_cannibal]

I'm glad you are happy with all the information you have gathered here but I'm not sure if you caught the main point...

Oh I get it, I just get overly excited sometimes and lose track of the point I'm making and get lost in the details. Thanks for the concern though :beer:

Thanks for the recommendation Merk

Elroy: that...just... i don't have the words. I think a little part of me died inside. I did manage to find this picture tho :D
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/ImportsSuk/poster48098102.jpg

Zorro13: Thanks for the information.

[Elroy]

Elroy: that...just... i don't have the words. I think a little part of me died inside. I did manage to find this picture tho :D
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w12/ImportsSuk/poster48098102.jpg

Elroy has just two words for that guy: Dumb Ass