What is going on with S-K Tools?

[Blacknwhitepit]

Problems with the Union, Protests at Sears?

Are their workers/union trying to kill the goose that lays the golden egg, or is the goose terminally ill and the employees feel they have nothing to lose?

Aren't they Employee owned? (From the breakaway with FACOM?)

Are they getting ready to go under?

-BWP

[olds88]

I hope not. While I agree they they got the shaft... they should still be glad they have jobs these days.

[sk farmer]

just a quick run down of what i know. former facom employees bought sk. sk has come upon hard times as all have. sk's insurance company drops its health coverage for employees. sk has not found another company to pick up policy or can't afford new rates. union tells employees to go on strike. sk has big problem getting bigger. i do not know who is to blame or how to solve. that is it in a nutshell. rusty has a more complete story on the darkside in political or off topic.i do not remember wich.

[Joe Mamma]

Damn, everytime I hear about this, it makes me sad. I love S-K tools. I hope this company doesn't go under . . .

Joe Mamma

[KraftwerkMk1Jetta]

Sounds like going on strike is going to make things worse for everyone.

[Merkava_4]

http://www.fightbacknews.org/2009/09/images/sk-sears-banner.jpg

http://www.fightbacknews.org/2009/09/images/sk-banner.jpg

[bry@n]

wasn't much of a fan to begin with. I think the union guys should look at the bigger picture. I also understand their situation and the company should have tried to be upfront.

[T56 Impala]

They are cutting their own throats..... good bye to another US made tool.

[Chief]

They are cutting their own throats..... good bye to another US made tool.

Yup ,

What he said

[Merkava_4]

The Chinese would be more than happy to make SK tools over on their turf ... and they don't care about benefits either.

[krusty the clown]

the sad part is it's being caused by the rising cost of healthcare but ya'll will still blame the union instead of correctly identifying the issue.

[Skyline]

They are cutting their own throats..... good bye to another US made tool.

They've been cutting their own throats for years with their pricing structure. They charge list prices almost as high as Snap-on or MAC, yet everyone knows you can buy for 40% less on on the Internet. Why do you think retail outlets for their tools have dried up? They have invested a huge amount on a nice web site, but you have to be an idiot to pay those prices.

I would guess French ownership is NOT a good thing for any US company. The French, in general, do not seem to get the concept of operating a business in the US.

[Merkava_4]

If SK wasn't so bent on competing with the likes of GearWrench and others, they could charge a descent price for their tools and get the employees what they want.

But at the same time, the Germans have socialized healthcare and they still charge good money for their tools. :D

[HandyManny]

They are cutting their own throats..... good bye to another US made tool.


Yup, it's really unfortunate :( Hopefully things get better for them.

[tube_guy]

If SK wasn't so bent on competing with the likes of GearWrench and others, they could charge a descent price for their tools and get the employees what they want.


Merk, you've really gotten to the root of the problem. For SK to be competitive, they need to improve their quality and increase their prices. In order for Americans to cost compete with Chinese labor, the standard of living there has to increase or the standard of living in this country has to decrease. Most likely both. I really wish I had the money to buy the whole company instead of just watching it all go down the tubes.

[sk farmer]

krusty, i respectfully ask you. if sk has no health insurance. how are they going to get it when the company is out of business? no job or no insurance. i pick job. if the union wanted to help the employees they would say. get your a-- to work and make sure you have an employer when we figure out how to get you covered. trash the company and then think someone will buy from them later. that kind of thinking does irrreparable damage to the reputation of the company. will those same emplyees go back out and say buy sk if they get covered? no, they will have to be at work. those people have a right to be upset and should be, but they are putting the gun to their head and may as well pull the trigger. a bad reputation is almost impossible to overcome.

[Stick Figure]

The Chinese would be more than happy to make SK tools over on their turf ... and they don't care about benefits either.

I would be that there are plenty of people in america right now that would be more than willing to take on the job even w/ out the benefits. I'm sure it pays more than unemployment.

[krusty the clown]

sk.......i see both sides of the problem. my comment was an observation of the ROOT cause of the issue. people tend to place blame in the wrong places. i have no opinion of whether the strike is justified or not since i don't know all of the facts AND most importantly i'm not a member of either party involved.



edit: i tried to stop the union bashing in another sk/strike thread but it seems everyone (at least one) wants to do it........the union debate is nothing more than politics but since we want to rehash it over and over we should ask ourselves..............hellman's or miricle whip!

[chadster1]

The largest wholesale distributor to the mobile tool business recently quit handling SK tools as well. They are also not handing any of the SK warranties anymore.

[sk farmer]

other than being a fan of their stuff i have no party to their problem either. i just see that rather than being a moderator to the problem the union is being an antagoniser and that is a most destructive position to take in this time in our economy. that whole mentality is hard to break. the flare nut wrench thread is a fine example. someone got scared to buy ans sk wrench set because thy may go out of business. how many wrenchs get warrentied anyway. i have maybe hundreds of wrenches and have had maybe none replaced. a couple broken cheapies but no good wrenches. most people other than us nutjobs only buy a set or two of standard and metric wrenches. they lose that sale and they probably never get it back. at many times in life you get one oppurtunity to make a good choice. if you screw it up you may never get back to that point again. i fear sk is at that point in their life again and someone has made a bad choice.

[krusty the clown]

i fear sk is at that point in their life again and someone has made a bad choice.

i think ALL the parties (including the insurance compay) have made bad choices, not just one.

but sadly people are just blaming one (and it's based in thier political belief's).

[HandyManny]

i think ALL the parties (including the insurance compay) have made bad choices, not just one.

but sadly people are just blaming one (and it's based in thier political belief's).


I believe you are correct.

Another problem with companies like S-K is that they have virtually abandoned a certain nitch of the market. If you want to sell tools you need to make them easily available in stores. Some Sears stores used to have an okay selection of S-K tools. Tools like S-K, Proto, and New Britain used to be available in places like Western Auto, NAPA, and other good auto parts stores. No longer, and New Britain doesn't even exists anymore. People can say bad stuff about GearWrench all they want, but Gearwrench has done a good job of filling a void left by a lot of good tools companies who have abondoned the consumer. There are lots of passionate car enthusiasts who wrench on the side and would be more than happy to have a readily available supply of good quality tools, even if they have to pay a bit more for them.

[sk farmer]

great point krusty. i am sure all parties have fault. i just don't think standing in front of sears helps their problem. the cure to making bad choices is to quit making them.just because everyone else does it does not make it right. i would sure like to help you drink some of those cheap light beers and talk about it some time if you weren't so darn far away.

[Skyline]

i think ALL the parties (including the insurance compay) have made bad choices, not just one.

but sadly people are just blaming one (and it's based in thier political belief's).

While it is likely that both the union and management share some responsibility for this issue...I guarantee that the insurer is NOT the culprit.

Health insurance costs are rising at a pretty alarming rate. The health insurance business is pretty much a "cost-plus" business, and profit margins are quite low for insurance companies, (national average LESS than 5%). The ONLY four reasons an insurer would cancel a client;
---Non-payment of premium
---Overall discontinuence of a particular product, or product line
---Inadequate participation (they must get the good with the bad)
---Poor claim experience (sometimes a carrier just can't charge enough to offset a sour claim situation)

It is simply a business decision, there is very little that an insurer will do if the situation is not right for them.

And in my experience, there's always another carrier that's willing to write the business as long as the participation issue is addressed.

But union vs. management negotiations on this topic can be uterly unrealistic at times...I've sat at these discussions enough to say it is a screwed up process.

[rhastings80]

Not sure I get the sign they are holding up saying "Don't Buy SK Handtools sold at Sears"

At the Sears in MN I have seen one 1/4 SK ratchet and that's the only SK thing in the whole store. I thought Danaher made all of the Craftsman stuff. Do the employees not even know where the tools they make are sold or am I missing something?

[sk farmer]

who added the political part in manny's quote of krusty? i assume manny as i did not see that krusty edited. noone else has mentioned political beleif. i am not being political or anti union. i am just stating imop that the union and the employees are pulling a stupid pr stunt that will not make insurance magicly appear. it's only benifit is to smear the company and damage it's reputation. not a very good way to prop up an ailing company in a fragile economy. again, my opinion.[sorry i mentioned you manny, i misread the quotes when i quickly checked in please accept my apology]

[krusty the clown]

While it is likely that both the union and management share some responsibility for this issue...I guarantee that the insurer is NOT the culprit.

Health insurance costs are rising at a pretty alarming rate. The health insurance business is pretty much a "cost-plus" business, and profit margins are quite low for insurance companies, (national average LESS than 5%). The ONLY four reasons an insurer would cancel a client;
---Non-payment of premium
---Overall discontinuence of a particular product, or product line
---Inadequate participation (they must get the good with the bad)
---Poor claim experience (sometimes a carrier just can't charge enough to offset a sour claim situation)

It is simply a business decision, there is very little that an insurer will do if the situation is not right for them.

And in my experience, there's always another carrier that's willing to write the business as long as the participation issue is addressed.

But union vs. management negotiations on this topic can be uterly unrealistic at times...I've sat at these discussions enough to say it is a screwed up process.

i guess i should have said the healthcare system as a whole.......

[krusty the clown]

great point krusty. i am sure all parties have fault. i just don't think standing in front of sears helps their problem. the cure to making bad choices is to quit making them.just because everyone else does it does not make it right. i would sure like to help you drink some of those cheap light beers and talk about it some time if you weren't so darn far away.

hahaha.......it's budweiser from now on :beer:

[sk farmer]

Not sure I get the sign they are holding up saying "Don't Buy SK Handtools sold at Sears"

At the Sears in MN I have seen one 1/4 SK ratchet and that's the only SK thing in the whole store. I thought Danaher made all of the Craftsman stuff. Do the employees not even know where the tools they make are sold or am I missing something?

sk makes wobble extensions, crowsfeet, palm ratchet, line or flare wrenches and possibly others. they used to make the full polish combo wrenches before danaher. other items are at times available via catalog.

[rhastings80]

sk makes wobble extensions, crowsfeet, palm ratchet, line or flare wrenches and possibly others. they used to make the full polish combo wrenches before danaher. other items are at times available via catalog.

Are these then re badged as Craftsman?

Thanks

[Merkava_4]

Why doesn't the union provide their own health insurance for their members? How much money in union dues are they collecting every month?

[sk farmer]

Are these then re badged as Craftsman?

Thanks yes they are. sears obtains items from many differant places. sk, knipex, and danaher off the top of my head. i am sure others also.

[sk farmer]

Why doesn't the union provide their own health insurance for their members? How much money in union dues are they collecting every month?i do not know but i often wonder what the union does anymore as i really do not know. i know they helped bring about many benificial labor laws that protect the worker , but osha and other agencies make sure those policies are kept up. i really do not know what they have to offer now. i have no idea but i would assume those union dues would go a long way towards helping sk pay to reestblish some type of healthcare. my wife pays part of the cost of our health plan at her job. i do not know why the could not do the same.

[matttys]

A few large national distributors have dropped the SK line because inventory availablility became a big issue.

[krusty the clown]

Why doesn't the union provide their own health insurance for their members? How much money in union dues are they collecting every month?

i'm not sure how thier contact reads and all are different. but usually it is up to the employer to provide the insurance as part of the wage/benefit package that they agreed to pay. the union is not in the insurance business.
typically union dues are $25 per month but it depends on the local.


as far as the strike is concerned it's just a barganing chip to get the employer to hold up thier end. i'm sure that they tried to negotiate before resorting to a strike. no one really wins a strike and both parties know that.

[T56 Impala]

sk.......i see both sides of the problem. my comment was an observation of the ROOT cause of the issue. people tend to place blame in the wrong places. i have no opinion of whether the strike is justified or not since i don't know all of the facts AND most importantly i'm not a member of either party involved.



edit: i tried to stop the union bashing in another sk/strike thread but it seems everyone (at least one) wants to do it........the union debate is nothing more than politics but since we want to rehash it over and over we should ask ourselves..............hellman's or miricle whip!

I wasn't "bashing" anyone. My statement is what it is. BOTH sides are cutting their own throats. Compromise....how about we ALL work together to fix what is wrong and stop blaming the other party?

Look, I pay for my own health insurance. $18,700 a year as a matter of fact. Why? Because the company my wife works for doesn't offer it to "management". Now, right or wrong, we take care of ourselves and don't expect someone else to do it for us. Union or gooberment.

I 'm sure the management of S&K can find other options. Will the two come to a compromise? Who knows. I hope so, but with this crappy global economy, I doubt it will be in time. So, in the end, both sides will lose and they will ALL be out of work.

[Hiball]

i'm not sure how thier contact reads and all are different. but usually it is up to the employer to provide the insurance as part of the wage/benefit package that they agreed to pay. the union is not in the insurance business.
typically union dues are $25 per month but it depends on the local.


as far as the strike is concerned it's just a barganing chip to get the employer to hold up thier end. i'm sure that they tried to negotiate before resorting to a strike. no one really wins a strike and both parties know that.

Lol, My BLET union dues are $120 a month and my portion of the wage benefit package for healthcare is $140 a month, The company was putting out that it costs them $800 bucks a month for every agreement employee to cover there portion of the negotiated benefits. I dont want to get into a pissing match over who's fault it is but if these employees are working under a negotiated contract that provides them health insurance then the company needs to hold of there end of the bargain, Also for the guy who pays $18 grand a year for health care that is REDICULUS.... I have awesome Benefits, NO co-pay, Been to the doctor probably 15 times in the last 12 years and never paid a dime, scripts are 2 and 8 dollars respectively, Definitely some of the best insurance out there. Either you have 15 kids or sounds like you need to shop around. Would like to add im not a big fan of global healthcare for everyone, Where people get off thinking they are owed healthcare i dont know but with that said i think it should be affordable and $18k a year is far from affordable. My fiance is a architect and her father provides her insurance along with his wife and even there insurance is only like $250 a month for 3 adults and its not bad insurance.

[Hiball]

I wasn't "bashing" anyone. My statement is what it is. BOTH sides are cutting their own throats. Compromise....how about we ALL work together to fix what is wrong and stop blaming the other party?



This is true.. In a failing economy where people are not spending money on items such as tools, Automobiles etc there needs to be some give and take with both parties. Where the problem lies is generally, not always Labor will take the brunt of the cutbacks. These corporation will cry and moan about how bad the company is doing yet there will still be corporate bonuses, They will still show up to the meetings in there Leer jets etc. I have no compassion for a company who chooses not to provide contractural healthcare for its employees because of declining sales and wont cut from the top of the food chain. I mean seriously how many VP's do you need?

[sk farmer]

it looks to me that the two owners hold the top four positions at sk according to their website. it does not seem too top heavy to me. do you have more info hiball or are you speculating? i honestly don't know other than what the sight shows.

[Hiball]

it looks to me that the two owners hold the top four positions at sk according to their website. it does not seem too top heavy to me. do you have more info hiball or are you speculating? i honestly don't know other than what the sight shows.

Im just speculating, It should be public knowledge if someone wanted to take the time to look it up. My top heavy comment doesnt just indite the company, Labor organizations are similar except there salary is paid by the union members via dues.

[krusty the clown]

probably more "generalizing" than speculating.

t56 impala, i wasn't refering to you in that comment!

as hiball stated they are contractualy obligated at this point and should do something to fullfill thier obligation. from the outside looking in i hope they do find an agreement.

[Hiball]

After a little research this strike only affects about 70 workers and they have been working without a contract since febuary, The company in May decided to drop the employees healthcare without any prior notice and have refused to negotiate with the union. It is since be handed over to a mediation board.

Here is the company last offer to the employees: “Their last offer was minimum wage and no healthcare insurance,” Mr. Berg said. “That, of course, is untenable.” Nice!! Im sure they are gonna produce some fine tools....


“We are willing to make concessions to save the company,” union steward David Biedrzycki stated, “but we can’t lose our health insurance. They expect us to pay for our health coverage out-of-pocket when they’re also asking for a 20% pay cut – we can’t afford this!” The workers’ wages have been frozen for the last six years

Sounds like the company doesnt want to negotiate at all, Next step Overseas workers who can afford to work for mininum wage without benefits. Its easy to sit back and blame the union for not wanting to negotiate but how would you feel if your job decided to cut your wages 20% and take your healthcare in todays world? And there is a difference when your making 80k a year compared to 24k.

[djd99]

They are cutting their own throats..... good bye to another US made tool.

What a shame nothing like shooting yourself in the foot. lol

[krusty the clown]

link to the article please

[krusty the clown]

here's what i have found...........

As contract negotiations have stalled, SK Hand Tools has also been behind on its payments to the workers’ pension fund. According to Berg, the French-owned company has not made regular payments since February.

In addition to its move to force employees to cover their health insurance out-of-pocket, management is currently bargaining for a 20 percent pay cut for all workers.

“Our wages have already been frozen for six years,” said David Bierdzycki, a union steward for SK Hand Tools. “We are all willing to make concessions to ensure this company survives, but we can’t lose our health insurance; we can’t lose our pensions and continue to operate in an unfair work environment.”

On average, employees now earn $14 per hour. The pay reduction proposed by management includes a loss of $4 per hour in the first six months of a new contract, lowering the company’s average earnings to just above Illinois’ minimum wage.

[sk farmer]

thanks for looking into it guys. i just don't seem to have the time or knowledge to go out and find that stuff. i know i have posted often today but it is while i have been in and out of my office. i am sure all parties are at fault but i see it kind of like a marriage or couples problem. when you take the problem and use it to tear the other persons reputation apart, you kind of lose all hope of reconsile. i guess i don't have much more to say than it is just plain sad. krusty, not so big on bud but i do love a tall blonde[miller high life in along neck]. i would make the concession for you though krusty.:beer: do you suppose we will see an sk by gearwrench product?

[krusty the clown]

i guess i don't have much more to say than it is just plain sad. agreed krusty, not so big on bud but i do love a tall blonde[miller high life in along neck]. i would make the concession for you though krusty.:beer: a 12 pack of each then:beer: do you suppose we will see an sk by gearwrench product?
i previously posted a thread about sk sourcing ratchets from danaher so you may be right

[sk farmer]

[QUOTE=krusty the clown;596114]agreed a 12 pack of each then:beer:
okay that will work for me. what are you going to drink?:pimpflash

[Marlin]

I lost all respect for SK when they tried to get into the air tool business by copying Ingersoll Rand model numbers and just sticking a 9 in front of each model. I know this is referring to hand tools but that was pretty sleazy of them.

[philw]

here's what i have found...........

As contract negotiations have stalled, SK Hand Tools has also been behind on its payments to the workers’ pension fund. According to Berg, the French-owned company has not made regular payments since February.

In addition to its move to force employees to cover their health insurance out-of-pocket, management is currently bargaining for a 20 percent pay cut for all workers.

“Our wages have already been frozen for six years,” said David Bierdzycki, a union steward for SK Hand Tools. “We are all willing to make concessions to ensure this company survives, but we can’t lose our health insurance; we can’t lose our pensions and continue to operate in an unfair work environment.”

On average, employees now earn $14 per hour. The pay reduction proposed by management includes a loss of $4 per hour in the first six months of a new contract, lowering the company’s average earnings to just above Illinois’ minimum wage.

SK is done, at least as far as USA production is concerned. The workers are not going to work for $10/hr with no benefits and I can't blame them.

[benjamming]

When they say workers to pay for health coverage out of pocket, are they saying for the employee to pay for it 100% w/o any company contribution?

[krusty the clown]

The workers are not going to work for $10/hr with no benefits and I can't blame them.

i agree. after 7 month of trying to reach a deal they probably have no hope of saving thier jobs anyway. i suspect this may be the company using them as scapegoats for moving production offshore.

[litljay]

20% pay reduction from $14.00 = $2.80 reduction or $11.20 final pay.

Maybe I was reading it incorrectly, but that's no where near Min. wage.

[krusty the clown]

When they say workers to pay for health coverage out of pocket, are they saying for the employee to pay for it 100% w/o any company contribution?

thats what i assume, but i'm sure we don't have all of the facts.

[krusty the clown]

20% pay reduction from $14.00 = $2.80 reduction or $11.20 final pay.

Maybe I was reading it incorrectly, but that's no where near Min. wage.

it stated that the company asked for a reduction to $10 an hour. i'm guessing the write came up with the 20% as a ballpark figure. illinois minimum wage is $8 an hour so it's only $80 per week more than minimum wage.

[litljay]

it stated that the company asked for a reduction to $10 an hour. i'm guessing the write came up with the 20% as a ballpark figure. illinois minimum wage is $8 an hour so it's only $80 per week more than minimum wage.

Thanks for the explanation. I thought there was some pretty fuzzy math going on.

$2/hr for a full time employee equates to about $4,080 of regular time gross pay a year.

[KraftwerkMk1Jetta]

Contractually obligated to provide health insurance or not, the company can't give them what they don't have to give. The union is doing nothing but making the problem worse, and these people have a lot of nerve, considering the unemployment rate these days. I'm so sick of this union garbage. My g/f was teaching middle school and wasn't tenured, she got laid off, now has to pay for her own health insurance while she's working as a subsititue, and doesn't have any whiney union to stand in a picket line with. It's called real life, and these crybabies never do anything to help the situation, only aggravate it more. I have friends that have made temporary pay cuts at their jobs, and it sucks, but they don't have a union to cry to, they've got bills to pay and know you have to tough it out for awhile until the storm clears. As much as I hate companies moving overseas, I can't say I blame them with b.s. like this.

[Hiball]

Contractually obligated to provide health insurance or not, the company can't give them what they don't have to give. The union is doing nothing but making the problem worse, and these people have a lot of nerve, considering the unemployment rate these days. I'm so sick of this union garbage. My g/f was teaching middle school and wasn't tenured, she got laid off, now has to pay for her own health insurance while she's working as a subsititue, and doesn't have any whiney union to stand in a picket line with. It's called real life, and these crybabies never do anything to help the situation, only aggravate it more. I have friends that have made temporary pay cuts at their jobs, and it sucks, but they don't have a union to cry to, they've got bills to pay and know you have to tough it out for awhile until the storm clears. As much as I hate companies moving overseas, I can't say I blame them with b.s. like this.

There is so much uneducated jargin in that statement i should just leave it alone. If your Gf was still teaching and the company dropped her insurance, failed to inform her and in the mean time while she was unaware that her insurance had been dropped she had been seeing the doctor and now had to pay the bill in full, Im sure you would have a different opinion. Im sorry your Gf got laid off and im sorry as a part time employee she doesnt qualify for health insurance. It also sucks to have to take a pay cut to keep your job and your friends im sure can vouch but if you read the facts and the reasoning of this strike its because the "company" doesnt want to talk and the only thing they are proposing is a 20% paycut and NO BENEFITS. The union isnt asking for a pay raise, Unions notoriously yield to hard times and try and work with companies, For instance the UAW which is probably one of the Strongest unions worked together with the Big 3 recently to keep jobs and have the company still make money. Im so sick of the That "Ronald Reagan Unions are bad mentality, Nobody ever see's the good that comes from unions because they all that they can see is $$$$. Give me a break

[KraftwerkMk1Jetta]

There is so much uneducated jargin in that statement i should just leave it alone. If your Gf was still teaching and the company dropped her insurance, failed to inform her and in the mean time while she was unaware that her insurance had been dropped she had been seeing the doctor and now had to pay the bill in full, Im sure you would have a different opinion. Im sorry your Gf got laid off and im sorry as a part time employee she doesnt qualify for health insurance. It also sucks to have to take a pay cut to keep your job and your friends im sure can vouch but if you read the facts and the reasoning of this strike its because the "company" doesnt want to talk and the only thing they are proposing is a 20% paycut and NO BENEFITS. The union isnt asking for a pay raise, Unions notoriously yield to hard times and try and work with companies, For instance the UAW which is probably one of the Strongest unions worked together with the Big 3 recently to keep jobs and have the company still make money. Im so sick of the That "Ronald Reagan Unions are bad mentality, Nobody ever see's the good that comes from unions because they all that they can see is $$$$. Give me a break

It's jargon, not jargin. And I could give two shits if you think that's what my post was full of. There are people out there WITHOUT JOBS and WITHOUT HEALTH INSURANCE who don't have a pansy ass union to back them, those are the people I feel for. The ones that have to do what they have to do to put food on the table. If the unions were so so great, they should support there members and provide health insurance for them and compromise until th e company can get back on its feet, not hang them from a noose. The unions great if your a member, otherwise they're a sham. So sick of this rah rah pro union non-sense.

[HandyManny]

Not sure I get the sign they are holding up saying "Don't Buy SK Handtools sold at Sears"

At the Sears in MN I have seen one 1/4 SK ratchet and that's the only SK thing in the whole store. I thought Danaher made all of the Craftsman stuff. Do the employees not even know where the tools they make are sold or am I missing something?

That's exactly the only thing at my Sears that's SK inthe whole store too.

[krusty the clown]

So sick of this rah rah pro union non-sense.

as we are of the anti-union non-sense.........

we have had a reasonable discussion all day about the facts of THIS case. lets stick with that :thumbup:

[HandyManny]

who added the political part in manny's quote of krusty? i assume manny as i did not see that krusty edited. noone else has mentioned political beleif. i am not being political or anti union. i am just stating imop that the union and the employees are pulling a stupid pr stunt that will not make insurance magicly appear. it's only benifit is to smear the company and damage it's reputation. not a very good way to prop up an ailing company in a fragile economy. again, my opinion.

What?? Nope I added nothing. I didn't even make reference to anything political here. If it was in the quote it was there before I even noticed it. I just hit quote when I responded. I have never been able to manipulate anyones posts here, nor would I. I'm not that good with a PC and keyboard.

[nelstomlinson]

...if you read the facts and the reasoning of this strike its because the "company" doesnt want to talk and the only thing they are proposing is a 20% paycut and NO BENEFITS.

I don't blame folks for being upset. That would upset me, too. With the state of the economy, there is a very real chance that the company's next offer will be a 100% pay cut and no benefits. No company is required to stay in business.

The union isnt asking for a pay raise, Unions notoriously yield to hard times and try and work with companies,...

That's wise; if you don't keep the boss in business, he won't keep you employed. Let's hope the unions work with SK this time. It doesn't sound as if it has happened yet.

I'd surely hate to see another U.S. manufacturer close down.

[Hiball]

It's jargon, not jargin. And I could give two shits if you think that's what my post was full of. There are people out there WITHOUT JOBS and WITHOUT HEALTH INSURANCE who don't have a pansy ass union to back them, those are the people I feel for. The ones that have to do what they have to do to put food on the table. If the unions were so so great, they should support there members and provide health insurance for them and compromise until th e company can get back on its feet, not hang them from a noose. The unions great if your a member, otherwise they're a sham. So sick of this rah rah pro union non-sense.

So, Is it the unions fault for contractrul agreements that require companies to keep jobs local? Or is it the Unions fault because non union employers sent work overseas or Wayy down south? Im fairly sure you think it is the unions fault regardless, Correct? Generally healthcare benefits are negotiated by the union in large discounts then the employer pays a portion and the company picks up the rest, to discontinue a employers healthcare without prior knowledge is unlawful and just plain bad.

[KraftwerkMk1Jetta]

So, Is it the unions fault for contractrul agreements that require companies to keep jobs local? Or is it the Unions fault because non union employers sent work overseas or Wayy down south? Im fairly sure you think it is the unions fault regardless, Correct? Generally healthcare benefits are negotiated by the union in large discounts then the employer pays a portion and the company picks up the rest, to discontinue a employers healthcare without prior knowledge is unlawful and just plain bad.

It very well may be, but like i said, what is it you want them to do? SK as a company is totally in the toilet, they can't give their employees what they want. Would blood or a pound of flesh suffice the picketlines?

[krusty the clown]

countdown to lockdown........one.......two......three......

[Merkava_4]

Do all U.S. hand tool manufacturing employees belong to a labor union of some kind? Proto employees? Armstrong employees?

What about the Knipex dudes over in Germany, do they belong to a labor union?

[krusty the clown]

snap on tools are union made. i'm not sure about the others. i did find that enderes is union as well. i would doubt that any stanley or danaher plants are union since they have closed plants in the industrial belt and moved them to right to work states.

[Hiball]

It very well may be, but like i said, what is it you want them to do? SK as a company is totally in the toilet, they can't give their employees what they want. Would blood or a pound of flesh suffice the picketlines?

What type of Profit line did SK make last year? I cant seem to find the information on the web, but im sure they still made money and this boils down to wanting to make more at the expense of paying someone mininum wage and taking there healthcare. If that information could be found im sure there would be a different outlook on this sitsuation even coming from the anti-union crowd. I would venture that Sk has all the intensions in the world of producing tools overseas and there are using this to get there. You cant tell me that 75 employees making $14 bucks a hour + benefits would break them, It might cost there Pres and VP that new Ferrari though.

[Diesel_Crawler]

countdown to lockdown........one.......two......three......

Agreed

http://mahopa.de/bilder/funny-forum-pictures/no-hope-for-this-thread.jpg

[KraftwerkMk1Jetta]

What type of Profit line did SK make last year? I cant seem to find the information on the web, but im sure they still made money and this boils down to wanting to make more at the expense of paying someone mininum wage and taking there healthcare. If that information could be found im sure there would be a different outlook on this sitsuation even coming from the anti-union crowd. I would venture that Sk has all the intensions in the world of producing tools overseas and there are using this to get there. You cant tell me that 75 employees making $14 bucks a hour + benefits would break them, It might cost there Pres and VP that new Ferrari though.

It might, and I'd believe it if you had some numbers to prove it.

[Hiball]

countdown to lockdown........one.......two......three......

A little constructive debating never hurt anyone, I just wish i could find the Sk earnings report. Do they have a parent company? It says on there website that they have been solo since 2006 or something.

[krusty the clown]

you won't find earnings information on the web for sk. there are only two stockholders. there is no need to issue a earnings report to stockholders if it isn't publicly traded stock.

[Merkava_4]

I'm thinking this is one of the more interesting threads we've had in a long time; too bad it'll get locked soon. :(

[Bolster]

I find it incomprehensible that SK workers (or anyone else for that matter) think they are owed health care!

Nobody pays for my healthcare. I pay for my own. And I'm not walking around with a placard, sitting on my thumbs, boo-hooing to the media, making someone out to be a villain, because they're not paying my health care bills for me.

I pay my own health care, and I do not consider myself to be a victim because of it.

I guess that makes me stranger than a $3 bill in today's USA where everybody has their hand in someone else's pocket.

[paramudduck]

Ok folks read up on the background.

New movement union leaders elected right before the contact ended.

Former union president and the cfo indited for rigging elections.

Company already on ropes from a six month strike in parma ohio asks that new hires come in at 20 percent less pay until economy and buisness improves. Union refuses demands across the board raises and more benefits.

Company flatly states they can't.

Union leader starts misdirection statements tying this into national healthcare debate.

Ses fact that fugar was born in France to make it appear to be evil french company.

If you check on the web most of the news you find is from the workers party or the socialist workers news headlines.

It is a total mess. Oh yeah the gov of the state was quoted as saying health care is everyones right.

[Merkava_4]

I find it incomprehensible that SK workers (or anyone else for that matter) think they are owed health care!

Man.... that's a controversial statement if I've ever heard one. :D

[Bolster]

Oh sure, blame the thread shutdown on me. :D After all, I pay my own healthcare, therefore I'm evil.

[crashbumper]

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a318/crashida/real.jpg

[Merkava_4]

I got y'all beat ... my healthcare plan is paid for by the U.S. Government. :D

[Hiball]

I find it incomprehensible that SK workers (or anyone else for that matter) think they are owed health care!

Nobody pays for my healthcare. I pay for my own. And I'm not walking around with a placard, sitting on my thumbs, boo-hooing to the media, making someone out to be a villain, because they're not paying my health care bills for me.

I pay my own health care, and I do not consider myself to be a victim because of it.

I guess that makes me stranger than a $3 bill in today's USA where everybody has their hand in someone else's pocket.

Man guys... these employees still pay a portion of there healthcare as do most people who have jobs, Just because you pay for your healthcare doesnt mean that your employer isnt kicking in a portion also. The ONLY people who pay 100% of there health care premium are "normally" self employed, People who dont work enough to get coverage or there employer doesnt provide any. I found this article interesting and there may be some truth to it as it relates to this case.

"With the promise on the horizon of a federal government health "option" selling health coverage at subsidized rates to people who have no health insurance through their place of work, I look for many more small businesses with union shops to shed health coverage for workers as union contracts expire in the coming months, in the hope that the federal program will pick up that portion of their operating costs. and put the difference into owners' pockets as profit. While Congressional and Obama administration proponents of health reform legislation with a "public option" continue to insist that the government plan is required to extend coverage to 45 million citizens who don't have health insurance now, opponents have argued that inclusion of a "public option" will force many workers who do have company provided health coverage into the ranks of the uninsured, driving the projected costs to taxpayers well above the currently predicted $900 billion."

[Merkava_4]

Everybody oughta' slug it out in the rice patties for 6 years like I did. ;)

[krusty the clown]

I guess that makes me stranger than a $3 bill in today's USA where everybody has their hand in someone else's pocket.


that hand is NOT in someone else's pocket..........that hand is outstretched on friday acepting the wages and benefits he has earned. it is part of his paycheck.

[Hiball]

And I'm not walking around with a placard, sitting on my thumbs, boo-hooing to the media, making someone out to be a villain, because they're not paying my health care bills for me

.

As i stated earlier how would you feel if you was in there shoes and were provided health care, in which you paid for out of your check and they just decided to drop your health care, Didnt tell you and waited for you to find out on your own? I have no affiliation with these people but they have not had a pay raise in 6 years, working without a contract since Feb and have been unable to negotiate with the company because they soley want 20% pay cut and "0" healthcare coverage. It doesnt sound like to me they have been fleecing there company over the years, even when the economy was better. With what the company is offering would put the employees of SK tool would be making Mininum wage if they had to Pay 100 percent of there current Healthcare and the 20% pay cut. How much does a set of Sk full polish wrenches cost? I bet snap on employees dont make mininum wage...

[sk farmer]

wow, i go out to work for a couple hours and get rained out. i come back and all crap hit the fan. i picked the wrong name i guess. first to handy manny, sorry i misread your post and accused you of saying something. second, lots of stuff in sears made by sk, it just says c-man. now on to hiball. i am damn sure that even if sk made money last year they are not making money this year and mostly either will not or will be out of business as we know it. i am not arguing just stating the obvioous. lots of places made money last year and are either not or gone now. to everyone else, lets keep this civil. it is very interesting and we may even get something out of this but if it is locked it is done. i am sure i missed something else but i think about 2 pages have been posted since i last read. wow!!!!!

[Bolster]

I got y'all beat ... my healthcare plan is paid for by the U.S. Government. :D

Which is to say, it's being paid for by me. Thank you for your service, and you're welcome for the small amount I have contributed toward your health care!

[krusty the clown]

Which is to say, it's being paid for by me. Thank you for your service, and you're welcome for the 'free' health care!

and EARNED through his military service :thumbup:

[Hiball]

now on to hiball. i am damn sure that even if sk made money last year they are not making money this year and mostly either will not or will be out of business as we know it. i am not arguing just stating the obvioous. lots of places made money last year and are either not or gone now. to everyone else, lets keep this civil. it is very interesting and we may even get something out of this but if it is locked it is done. i am sure i missed something else but i think about 2 pages have been posted since i last read. wow!!!!!

Reminds me off State Farm insurance story, Ive been insured thru them for close to 17 years house, automobile and my rates have always stayed fairly consistant, rising a little every year. Now the year 2000 or 01 cant remember but we had a bad ice storm hit Missouri and there was tons of damage to houses, cars etc... Well i get my bill and i see that my annual rate has jumped like 60% and im like WTF so i call state farm and right away the lady starts in about how the state of missouri pays for all its insurance claims with out help from outside offices and "Mr. Coil you know we had that bad ice storm and it costs us alot of money" so i simply asked her what did you do with all the money from the previous years... ... Ah... ah was her response.

[Hiball]

and EARNED through his military service :thumbup:

:+1:[




10 spaces

[Merkava_4]

Now it's my turn to make a controversial statement: :spit:

I'm thinking SK tools aren't worth fussing over ... they've had a lot of quality control issues and their combination wrenches are hideous.

**runs for cover**

[krusty the clown]

Now it's my turn to make a controversial statement: :spit:

I'm thinking SK tools aren't worth fussing over ... they've had a lot of quality control issues and their combination wrenches are hideous.

**runs for cover**

while i agree, i hate to see another US mfr lost. it's not for me to say what others should buy.........unless they ask me :bounce:

[sk farmer]

Reminds me off State Farm insurance story, Ive been insured thru them for close to 17 years house, automobile and my rates have always stayed fairly consistant, rising a little every year. Now the year 2000 or 01 cant remember but we had a bad ice storm hit Missouri and there was tons of damage to houses, cars etc... Well i get my bill and i see that my annual rate has jumped like 60% and im like WTF so i call state farm and right away the lady starts in about how the state of missouri pays for all its insurance claims with out help from outside offices and "Mr. Coil you know we had that bad ice storm and it costs us alot of money" so i simply asked her what did you do with all the money from the previous years... ... Ah... ah was her response.lets talk apples. i understand your insurance woes, but sk as it is now is a new company bought with someones cash from facom. same name, same product, differant company. sk has had many names and owners over the years. i do not know and neither do you who's pocket is full of cash. if i were to guess it is facom and they are out of the picture. noone is making monthly payments to sk like an insurance company so they have no steady source of income. my guess is people paid their insurance and skipped tool purchases. striking employees plus ruined reputation plus warehouse full of tools worth pennies on the dollar equals not many assets for a new company. not talking any politics here nor union bashing just simple truths in life.

[krusty the clown]

lets talk apples. i understand your insurance woes, but sk as it is now is a new company bought with someones cash from facom. same name, same product, differant company. sk has had many names and owners over the years. i do not know and neither do you who's pocket is full of cash. if i were to guess it is facom and they are out of the picture. noone is making monthly payments to sk like an insurance company so they have no steady source of income. my guess is people paid their insurance and skipped tool purchases. striking employees plus ruined reputation plus warehouse full of tools worth pennies on the dollar equals not many assets for a new company. not talking any politics here nor union bashing just simple truths in life.

i think his comments were more toward sk's problems with the insurance company, not with the union.

[sk farmer]

Now it's my turn to make a controversial statement: :spit:

I'm thinking SK tools aren't worth fussing over ... they've had a lot of quality control issues and their combination wrenches are hideous.

**runs for cover**

sounds a lot like snap-on and craftsman if we are going down that road.

[Hiball]

striking employees plus ruined reputation plus warehouse full of tools worth pennies on the dollar equals not many assets for a new company. not talking any politics here nor union bashing just simple truths in life.

Sometimes a company is only as good as its employees, If they cant pay someone more than 10 bucks and no benefits to assemble and build there tools i feel sorry for them and doubt they will be around much longer.

[paramudduck]

OK Company paying what it pays because the union for the past 7 years agreed to it.

Previous strike and discontented workers doing poor products in Parma already had the company on the ropes.

New union leaders in Illinois trying to show their muscle will put the company out of business.

Handy Manny Dad worked for unions all of his life. The insurance was always though the union. Paid by the deductions from his pay checks with a kick in from the company. None of the companies he worked union for furnished the insurance. It was either ALF-CIO or Teamsters.

[BackTracker]

i agree. after 7 month of trying to reach a deal they probably have no hope of saving thier jobs anyway. i suspect this may be the company using them as scapegoats for moving production offshore.

I was just thinking that.... assuming all the info in the thread is correct, thats what it looks like.

[wrenchr]

and EARNED through his military service :thumbup:

My thoughts to:beer:

[Bolster]

Well I checked back in to see who's "winning" this thread. On an internet forum, about all you can do is count posts, so this is what I have so far:

Merkava - 10 posts
SK - 14 posts
Hiball - 13 posts
Krusty - 21 posts, the clear winner! Wow, Krusty, you sure got a lot of time at the podium on this one. Take a bow! That's quite a filibuster. Even though I do not share your pro-union sympathies, I can’t help but admire your tireless computer advocacy on their behalf!

[wrenchr]

Wow Merkava was out posted.................

[sk farmer]

bolster, i have you in at 4. if we run this another day you can get up there to. i am not getting krusty as much pro union as i am pro common sense and reason, he has the ability to express his opinion without being an a--. that my freinds is a trait i admire and wish i had as much of. i may not agree with everything he say but you can understand where he is coming from. some of those other thoughts on this, well,,,,,,,,,,,,,better left unsaid.

[BB26]

Generally healthcare benefits are negotiated by the union in large discounts then the employer pays a portion and the company picks up the rest, to discontinue a employers healthcare without prior knowledge is unlawful and just plain bad.

It may be just plain bad to discontinue insurance coverage, but not unlawful. With an expired contract, SK is only required to follow state and federal employment/wage & hour laws. Thus, they can discontinue every benefit that they offer and pay every employee state minimum wage. Like it or not, this is the truth.

This whole situation is awful for both sides. Employees are trying to maintain insurance, retirement and livable wages, while SK is trying to turn a profit. It appears that these things cannot exist simultaneously right now within SK. Something has got to give, so I guess we will wait and see what happens.

And Merk, QC has been suspect lately, but I like SKs combo wrenches. I'm sure that I am not alone here.

[bowtie3]

snap on tools are union made. i'm not sure about the others. i did find that enderes is union as well. i would doubt that any stanley or danaher plants are union since they have closed plants in the industrial belt and moved them to right to work states.


The Snap-on plant in Elizabethton, TN (makes ratchets, wrenches etc.) is NOT union. I know people that work there and has worked there in the past. That plant has never been union and I predict never will be, otherwise they will shut it down and go somewhere else. They had a plant about 20 miles from this one that was union (made screwdrivers and pry bars) and it has been shut down for around five years. They are phasing out union shops all over the country. If you work for Snap-on and you are a union member you better be looking for a job, cause your gonna need it.

[olds88]

The Snap-on plant in Elizabethton, TN (makes ratchets, wrenches etc.) is NOT union. I know people that work there and has worked there in the past. That plant has never been union and I predict never will be, otherwise they will shut it down and go somewhere else. They had a plant about 20 miles from this one that was union (made screwdrivers and pry bars) and it has been shut down for around five years. They are phasing out union shops all over the country. If you work for Snap-on and you are a union member you better be looking for a job, cause your gonna need it.

I can't argue one way or the other, however I trust that Snap-on compensates its employees very fairly.

[Merkava_4]

Wow Merkava was out posted.................

It's not how many posts you make that counts ... it's how much chit you stir up. :lol:

[Bolster]

he has the ability to express his opinion without being an a--.

I agree 100%. The man has the gift of persuasion.

if we run this another day you can get up there to.

I'll work on it!!

[bowtie3]

I can't argue one way or the other, however I trust that Snap-on compensates its employees very fairly.

I'm not sure how much they make, but I consider anything fair if the employee agrees to come to work for it. I would'nt go to work a co. if I didn't think it was fair.

[Hiball]

It may be just plain bad to discontinue insurance coverage but certainly not unlawful. With an expired contract, SK is only required to follow state and federal employment/wage & hour laws. Thus, they can discontinue every benefit that they offer and pay every employee state minimum wage. Like it or not, this is the truth.

It actually is against the law:

If found in violation of the law, the company would be
required "to restore the status quo" as it was before
the violation and would have to bargain with the union
in good faith, said a board spokeswoman.

When you fail to negotiate a new contract, you have to abide by the previous contract till a new contract can be negotiated. Now there is loopholes where the company or the union can give notice to cancel benefits etc but there is certain timelimits that have to be followed. The National Labor Relation board has already spoke on this matter and noted the unjustly decision of Sk halt benefits with "NO" given notice and now they have intervened to try and get the 2 parties together. If Sk loses the lawsuit and there is a very good chance they will, they will legally have to compensate all employees for all out of pocket expenses relating to healtcare costs.

The above information was from a fellow related Teamster and they are very confident that these "french" owners of SK will have to pay eventually.

[old salvage]

I hope this has a happy ending but as others have said, it probably wont.:(
Sorry if someone already posted this..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLj8xKLRaQQ

[BB26]

It actually is against the law:

If found in violation of the law, the company would be
required "to restore the status quo" as it was before
the violation and would have to bargain with the union
in good faith, said a board spokeswoman.

When you fail to negotiate a new contract, you have to abide by the previous contract till a new contract can be negotiated. Now there is loopholes where the company or the union can give notice to cancel benefits etc but there is certain timelimits that have to be followed. The National Labor Relation board has already spoke on this matter and noted the unjustly decision of Sk halt benefits with "NO" given notice and now they have intervened to try and get the 2 parties together. If Sk loses the lawsuit and there is a very good chance they will, they will legally have to compensate all employees for all out of pocket expenses relating to healtcare costs.

The above information was from a fellow related Teamster and they are very confident that these "french" owners of SK will have to pay eventually.

SK would only be required to restore status quo if they are found guilty of not bargaining in good faith, which is a separate issue. It is customary to abide by the expired contract, but the company is by no means required to do so. Period.

To explain this a little further, the union would need to show that SK purposely strung along the negotiations past the expiration so that they could then take away benefits, wages, etc. In other words, they need to show SK never intended to come to an agreement.

The union may end up nailing SK on not bargaining in good faith, which would result in restoring status quo.

[Merkava_4]

The above information was from a fellow related Teamster and they are very confident that these "french" owners of SK will have to pay eventually.

You mean to tell me that SK is being run by a couple of French dudes? Hell, that explains everything. :spit:

[philw]

I don't think anyone can have a clear understanding without knowing SK's true financial status and we are never going to know that.

Maybe the owners want that new Ferrari and don't want to deal or are using this as an excuse to move labor overseas.

Maybe they are really in severe financial problems and have no options.

If they are really in trouble then a good idea would be to share the financial info with the union and then try to compromise. If the union understands that they are in severe financial difficulty then maybe they can salvage something.

The gov't isn't going to bail out SK. If they go bankrupt there will be 0 jobs.

To many ifs........
Like I said before, I hope they get it fixed.

[Hiball]

SK would only be required to restore status quo if they are found guilty of not bargaining in good faith, which is a separate issue. It is customary to abide by the expired contract, but the company is by no means required to do so. Period.

Well i work for the Railroad and fellow member of the Brotherhood of locomotive and Trainmen and we Merged with the teamsters after a attempt of nasty takeover by the UTU and i know from Personal experience that at least in the Transportation department that When you fail to negotiate a new contract the company MUST abide by the past contract and it is Illegal not to without proper channels being followed and those channels flow right thru labor relations. My Intel is telling me that Labor relations isnt too found of being stepped on and if Sk and the union dont get together quick there will be unfair labor charges brought against them.

[Hiball]

You mean to tell me that SK is being run by a couple of French dudes? Hell, that explains everything. :spit:

That would be correct, They took the company over on somekind of management purchase agreement.

[BB26]

Well i work for the Railroad and fellow member of the Brotherhood of locomotive and Trainmen and we Merged with the teamsters after a attempt of nasty takeover by the UTU and i know from Personal experience that at least in the Transportation department that When you fail to negotiate a new contract the company MUST abide by the past contract and it is Illegal not to without proper channels being followed and those channels flow right thru labor relations. My Intel is telling me that Labor relations isnt too found of being stepped on and if Sk and the union dont get together quick there will be unfair labor charges brought against them.

Read my post again, I added further explaination. I work in Human Resources for a large company with 13 union contracts. I deal with these issues on a daily basis and it is my job to know them very well.

[Fedwrench]

No one but Danaher and Stanley would really win if SK closes its doors. Aside from the SK workers, there are also many independent tool truck dealers that hawk SK as their primary line that may be starting to feel the pinch of inventory drying up. Factor in the techs that use SK as an alternative to the truck brands, votech students with their school kits, industrial users, and even government workers will feel the dominoe affect of SK's demise. I hope that SK can pull through this but, the odds seem stacked against them. I wish them the best. I've had SK tools many years and will continue to pick them up as needed.:beer:

[Hiball]

The union may end up nailing SK on not bargaining in good faith, which would result in restoring status quo.

Like i said the trial between National Labor Relations Board and Sk was suppost to happen on the 2nd of Sept, Per my friend it didnt happen till the 3rd and Labor relations ruled that it was indeed a ULP (Unfair Labor Practice). I expect that is why Labor relations is already mediating between the 2 parties. It normally takes longer than 3 weeks to get a case mediated and i suspect this is to try and convince the 2 parties to negotiate and unofficially inform Sk of there ruling. I hope everything works out between the 2 but from what scuttlebut ive read the company wants nothing more than 8 bucks a hour and NO benefits for its 75 employees, some whom have worked 30 plus years.

[BB26]

Like i said the trial between National Labor Relations Board and Sk was suppost to happen on the 2nd of Sept, Per my friend it didnt happen till the 3rd and Labor relations ruled that it was indeed a ULP (Unfair Labor Practice). I expect that is why Labor relations is already mediating between the 2 parties. It normally takes longer than 3 weeks to get a case mediated and i suspect this is to try and convince the 2 parties to negotiate and unofficially inform Sk of there ruling. I hope everything works out between the 2 but from what scuttlebut ive read the company wants nothing more than 8 bucks a hour and NO benefits for its 75 employees, some whom have worked 30 plus years.

The ULP results from SK not bargaining in good faith. It doesn't result from SK not following an expired contract or taking away benefits specified in an expired contract.

Like any other expired contract, an expired union contract is null and void and does not have to be followed UNLESS SK has intentionally caused the contract to expire in order to take things away from the union members.

Most employers choose to continue following an expired contract to avoid unpopularity and union backlash. And of course to avoid the risk of being accused/found guilty of not bargaining in good faith. From the outside, it appears as though SK will lose this battle.

[Hiball]

The ULP results from SK not bargaining in good faith. It doesn't result from SK not following an expired contract or taking away benefits.

Like any other expired contract, an expired union contract is null and void and does not have to be followed UNLESS SK has intentionally caused the contract to expire in order to take things away from the union members.

Most employers choose to continue following an expired contract to avoid unpopularity and union backlash. And of course to avoid the risk of being accused/found guilty of not bargaining in good faith. From the outside, it appears as though SK will lose this battle.

The ULP is because the company failed to give notice on terminating there health insurance and Pension benefits. That information is readily available on the web, the outcome is per a friend of my local chairman and has not been made public yet. Geez i worked 3 years without a contract when i was a conductor because the union and company couldnt get together, but i also got paid backpay for the 3 years. Anyways i suppose something whether it be good or bad will happen rather quickly, once the goobers at LR get involved it usually speeds up the process.

[nissan_crawler]

Now it's my turn to make a controversial statement: :spit:

I'm thinking SK tools aren't worth fussing over ... they've had a lot of quality control issues and their combination wrenches are hideous.

**runs for cover**

haha:thumbup:

It actually is against the law:

If found in violation of the law, the company would be
required "to restore the status quo" as it was before
the violation and would have to bargain with the union
in good faith, said a board spokeswoman.

When you fail to negotiate a new contract, you have to abide by the previous contract till a new contract can be negotiated. Now there is loopholes where the company or the union can give notice to cancel benefits etc but there is certain timelimits that have to be followed. The National Labor Relation board has already spoke on this matter and noted the unjustly decision of Sk halt benefits with "NO" given notice and now they have intervened to try and get the 2 parties together. If Sk loses the lawsuit and there is a very good chance they will, they will legally have to compensate all employees for all out of pocket expenses relating to healtcare costs.

The above information was from a fellow related Teamster and they are very confident that these "french" owners of SK will have to pay eventually.

Once our contract is up, it's up. there is no following the old one.

That being said, the national labor relations board is crooked as hell, I would be very surprised if they sided against a union.

[BB26]

Geez i worked 3 years without a contract when i was a conductor because the union and company couldnt get together, but i also got paid backpay for the 3 years.

You received retro pay because it was part of the new agreement. Not because your employer did not follow an expired contract. Once an agreement is reached, it is very typical for the contract to include wage increases retroactive to when the previous contract expired. Employees then receive back pay for that duration.

You don't always get the full story from media soundbites and internet quotes. Believe what you want. I am done with this topic and this thread.

[Hiball]

haha:thumbup:



Once our contract is up, it's up. there is no following the old one.

That being said, the national labor relations board is crooked as hell, I would be very surprised if they sided against a union.

Labor Relations isnt known for siding "with" the union very often, Only in cases where blatent unfair labor practice occurs and the media has a strong presense. There favorite position is Neutral.

[Hiball]

You received retro pay because it was part of the new agreement. Not because your employer did not follow an expired contract. Once an agreement is reached, it is very typical for the contract to include wage increases retroactive to when the previous contract expired. Employees then receive back pay for that duration.

You don't always get the full story from media soundbites and internet quotes. Believe what you want. I am done with this topic and this thread.

I never said that wasnt the case and the only reason that is the case in my sitsuation is because they cant hire people off the street to do my job, it takes lots of training and that is mandated by the Government, Im done talking about it also, When the results of the hearing are made public and/or the workers are back working we can continue talking about tools, this union/employer talk is giving me a headache.

[nissan_crawler]

Labor Relations isnt known for siding "with" the union very often, Only in cases where blatent unfair labor practice occurs and the media has a strong presense. There favorite position is Neutral.

95% majority vote to remove union, they said no. Not crooked?

[Merkava_4]

This thread still going on? MC on vacation? :p

[Fedwrench]

This thread still going on? MC on vacation? :p

Wht's up with returning to the Cornwell avatar? No more Merkava pictures? This thread may last longer than SK's future unfortunately.:wtf:

[Merkava_4]

Wht's up with returning to the Cornwell avatar?

I keep scrolling past my posts; I gotta have something up there. I wish I could find an animated Merkava tank like that Abrams one I had.

[pjcforpres2020]

I am surprised this is still going as well...

Personally, I like SK, and have a fair amount of their stuff... good prices, good quality(not the best, but good). I was going to order up a socket set, but my dealer told me to hold off until the dust settles and their future becomes clear. They are a premium dealer of SK, and are still warranty swapping, but they were told by SK that stock level are limited, and orders may take several months to fill until the strike is resolved.

[Danglerb]

the sad part is it's being caused by the rising cost of healthcare but ya'll will still blame the union instead of correctly identifying the issue.

Standing in front of Sears and turning away customers pegs the meter on the stupid scale. Walk in thinking SK, walk out with Craftsman.

[Merkava_4]

I'd advise you guys to forget about SK for awhile and look into Armstrong, Proto, and Williams for non-truck brands. Just sayin'....

[Moose-LandTran]

I keep scrolling past my posts; I gotta have something up there. I wish I could find an animated Merkava tank like that Abrams one I had.

How's this?

http://www.3dcenter.ru/blueprints/tanks/merkava-ii.gif

I like the Cornhole logo better.

[Fedwrench]

I've ordered a few SK items recently online and had no problem getting them in 2-3 days. As for SK stuff in Sears stores, unless you want a 1/4 drive flexhead ratchet, I don't think there is anything else on my store's rack that's branded SK. There may be tools made by SK stamped Craftsman but, most people aren't aware of that. No one knows what the future holds for any tool company (other than a partly rice diet). However, if everyone just stops buying SK tools because we can't look into our crystal ball and see the future, they might as well close up shop and sell off the manufacturing equipment right now. If you need decent tools, get the SK.:wtf:

[danski0224]

Why doesn't the union provide their own health insurance for their members? How much money in union dues are they collecting every month?


In my experience...

Union health insurance is funded through a hourly amount that is in the wage and benefits package.

In order to maintain coverage, the union member must work a minimum number of hours per quarter, and insurance monies are paid in advance (ie: the member must work 90 days before coverage begins).

Members do not receive an equal amount of "credit" or "banked hours" for any time worked over the minimum. So if you work tons of OT one quarter and get laid off, you can lose coverage quickly.

It is easy to see that funding the insurance pool through a number of hours is better for the bottom line of the union compared to the actual cost of the individual policy with a group rate. This is why unions want to bring in cheap apprentices (they work lots of hours, hours = $$$ for the funds)... and those apprentices are usually young and do not need a bunch of health care.

The cost to self pay for health insurance in a union I am familiar with is right at $1000 a month... doesn't matter if you are healthy and single, married with 10 kids or anything inbetween.

Union dues typically fund administrative expenses (BA pay and whatnot).

As an unemployed union member, I have my own health insurance at just over $200 a month because I lost the insurance through the union (no hours worked since the beginning of this year) and I will not pay them $1000 a month.

[danski0224]

Lol, My BLET union dues are $120 a month and my portion of the wage benefit package for healthcare is $140 a month, The company was putting out that it costs them $800 bucks a month for every agreement employee to cover there portion of the negotiated benefits. I dont want to get into a pissing match over who's fault it is but if these employees are working under a negotiated contract that provides them health insurance then the company needs to hold of there end of the bargain, Also for the guy who pays $18 grand a year for health care that is REDICULUS.... I have awesome Benefits, NO co-pay, Been to the doctor probably 15 times in the last 12 years and never paid a dime, scripts are 2 and 8 dollars respectively, Definitely some of the best insurance out there. Either you have 15 kids or sounds like you need to shop around. Would like to add im not a big fan of global healthcare for everyone, Where people get off thinking they are owed healthcare i dont know but with that said i think it should be affordable and $18k a year is far from affordable. My fiance is a architect and her father provides her insurance along with his wife and even there insurance is only like $250 a month for 3 adults and its not bad insurance.

Have you priced out insurance? Tried to buy coverage comparable to the coverage you have through the union?

What is the Health and Welfare portion of your pay and benefits package? Look it up, multiply it by the number of hours worked, and you will see what your employer is paying for your health coverage.

Don't forget workers comp and disability.

The Union buys coverage at group rates, but does not pass the savings along. They gotta make money too, ya know....

[Hiball]

95% majority vote to remove union, they said no. Not crooked?

Thats apples and oranges, Im talking about in relation to contractrual agreement differences etc, where they step in to mediate between union and company.

[Hiball]

Have you priced out insurance? Tried to buy coverage comparable to the coverage you have through the union?

What is the Health and Welfare portion of your pay and benefits package? Look it up, multiply it by the number of hours worked, and you will see what your employer is paying for your health coverage.

Don't forget workers comp and disability.

The Union buys coverage at group rates, but does not pass the savings along. They gotta make money too, ya know....

As i stated in my comment the company already stated what it costs per agreement employee per month and its 800 bucks a month + the my cost of $140 a month. But my future father in law runs a architectural company, employs my fiance and a another girl and currently provides insurance for Himself, His Wife and my finance and it runs him $250 a month and its good insurance Blue Cross blue shield. Yes... INsurance is expensive and this is no secret. As far as Workmans Comp i have no idea what it runs as im covered by the FELA as a Railroader.

[rhandwor]

Just look at the US auto industry health care was a major problem. Look at Medicare health care is breaking them and they only pay 20% of cost.

[danski0224]

As i stated in my comment the company already stated what it costs per agreement employee per month and its 800 bucks a month + the my cost of $140 a month. But my future father in law runs a architectural company, employs my fiance and a another girl and currently provides insurance for Himself, His Wife and my finance and it runs him $250 a month and its good insurance Blue Cross blue shield. Yes... INsurance is expensive and this is no secret. As far as Workmans Comp i have no idea what it runs as im covered by the FELA as a Railroader.

So, the true cost of your insurance is $940 a month, or $11,280.00 a year.

Costs that your employer must pass along to consumers.

Of course, you do not know what your union is paying- could be much less or more than that for your policy, depending on your health and risk factors.

If you add a child or two... maybe a chronic medical condition... smoking... trying to get a policy with a preexisting condition... it would be easy to get to $18k a year.

[Hiball]

If you add a child or two... maybe a chronic medical condition... smoking... trying to get a policy with a preexisting condition... it would be easy to get to $18k a year.

In my experience...

The cost to self pay for health insurance in a union I am familiar with is right at $1000 a month... doesn't matter if you are healthy and single, married with 10 kids or anything inbetween.

.

The 2 above quotes from you confuse me,Im not sure what your asking, or what your trying to explain. Yes Insurance is very expensive everyone in this country is aware of this im sure. Im sure my employer passes the cost of its employees benefits onto its consumers, as do any and all business's and my employer still makes 100's of millions of dollars of profit every year. They wouldnt be in business if they wasn't making money.

[Vinko]

the sad part is it's being caused by the rising cost of healthcare but ya'll will still blame the union instead of correctly identifying the issue.

+1 . . . . . .

[danski0224]

The 2 above quotes from you confuse me,Im not sure what your asking, or what your trying to explain. Yes Insurance is very expensive everyone in this country is aware of this im sure. Im sure my employer passes the cost of its employees benefits onto its consumers, as do any and all business's and my employer still makes 100's of millions of dollars of profit every year. They wouldnt be in business if they wasn't making money.

In one post, you commented something to the effect that $18k for an annual insurance bill was out of line. It is not, as you are near $12k a year in your union "group" plan.

I am making an assumption that your plan is at least based loosely upon a flat fixed monthly cost or a cost based upon a number of hours worked for each member, rather than the true cost of the policy. This way, all members pay the same rate, with the low risk members subsidizing the high risk members... and the union keeps the extra :)

Yes, the employer passes the cost on and still makes money.

The thing is that the employer always wants more money, and if the company is public, so do the investors. In addition to the rising cost of healthcare, which is rooted in the insurance structure, companies want to turn health care expenses into profit by reducing/eliminating coverage. That plan will backfire as the people that need coverage turn to forms of public aid, which is funded by taxpayers... and businesses have all kinds of loopholes that the regular working Joe does not. Regular Joe keeps being outsourced by companies seeking more profit... subsequent jobs pay less... so there is less tax revenue.

Insurance is a big shell game.

The policies the doctors/hospitals must carry are underwritten by the same companies that underwrite Joe Public. As the doctor/hospital policies increase in price... those entities pass the cost to the consumer (patient)... which results in higher costs for services... which necessitates higher payouts for the insurers to the service providers... and results in higher premium costs for the patients.

The insurance companies are making it from both ends, and there appears to be zero checks and balances in place. You want coverage? OK, you pay the going rate. Un/underinsured legal citizens of the USA eventually pay for their hospital stays, unlike illegals that work together to work the system.

The company wants more profit.

Healthcare costs are rising out of control.

None of that is a result of being "union" or not. <<< just making a statement, not directed at you personally.

[trackwelder]

I am making an assumption that your plan is at least based loosely upon a flat fixed monthly cost or a cost based upon a number of hours worked for each member, rather than the true cost of the policy. This way, all members pay the same rate, with the low risk members subsidizing the high risk members... and the union keeps the extra :)


http://www.bmwe.org/News/2009/07JUL/SENATOR_LETTER_HELP.pdf

The Unions do not provide our healthcare. The above link will explain our healthcare if you are interested.

[FastKat]

Any update on S-K Tools situation? I am torn between a set of S-K SuperKrome and Craftsman Pro combination wrenches. I am leaning towards the S-K, but if they're going out of business, returning broken tools in the future will be a problem.

[Merkava_4]

Any update on S-K Tools situation? I am torn between a set of S-K SuperKrome and Craftsman Pro combination wrenches. I am leaning towards the S-K, but if they're going out of business, returning broken tools in the future will be a problem.


That's like being torn between one evil step sister and the other evil step sister. Both have big-ass ugly feet that don't fit in the glass slipper. :spit:

[FastKat]

That's like being torn between one evil step sister and the other evil step sister. Both have big-ass ugly feet that don't fit in the glass slipper. :spit:

If those step sisters can at least cook, well that's better than what I have now! :) I like those high-maintenance pretty sisters a lot (Snap-On) but am not willing to pay their way!

I picked up the vibe off some news website that the S-K strike recently broke - is that true?

[krusty the clown]

If those step sisters can at least cook, well that's better than what I have now! :) I like those high-maintenance pretty sisters a lot (Snap-On) but am not willing to pay their way!

I picked up the vibe off some news website that the S-K strike recently broke - is that true?

the strike has been over for a while now........


the high maintenance step sisters are paying my bills:lol_hitti

[Merkava_4]

If those step sisters can at least cook, well that's better than what I have now! :) I like those high-maintenance pretty sisters a lot (Snap-On) but am not willing to pay their way!

I picked up the vibe off some news website that the S-K strike recently broke - is that true?


The strike is over, but now you have to send in $5 along with each socket to cover the new warranty charges. Send in 5 sockets, you better enclose $25. :D

[kooldino]

The strike is over, but now you have to send in $5 along with each socket to cover the new warranty charges. Send in 5 sockets, you better enclose $25. :D

Seriously?

[Mr.Nutcase]

Seriously?

yes............. read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.sktools.com/Default.aspx?fusemode=8&fusecode=01

Warranty Policy Guidelines and Parameters

Warranty Policy Guidelines and Parameters

Limited Lifetime Warranty

S•K Professional Tools, unless otherwise specified, are unconditionally guaranteed against defects in materials and workmanship for the expected life of the tool. S•K, at its option, will repair or replace any tool that fails to give satisfactory service, on condition that the tool (in S•K’s sole judgement) has not been misused, abused, modified or worn out from use and that it is returned to an authorized warranty station.

Agents of S•K Hand Tool Corporation have no authority to make representations of any sort beyond those contained in this warranty. No S•K employee, distributor or person other than an authorized officer of S•K may extend the S•K Warranty. Any such alteration must be in writing and signed by the authorized officer.

The foregoing limited warranty is in lieu of all other warranties, whether oral, written, expressed, implied or statutory, including, but not limited to, implied warranties of fitness for a particular purpose or merchantability.

Tools returned to SK Hand Tool Corporation for warranty replacement will be assessed a shipping, handling, and processing fee of $5.00 per tool. SK reserves the right to modify the fees at its discretion. When sending tools to SK Hand Tool for warranty replacement include a check, credit card information, or money order for the shipping, handling, and processing fee along with your return address. Allow eight to twelve weeks for warranty replacement processing. Tools should be returned to the following address for warranty return processing:



SK Hand Tool Corporation

Attn: Warranty Department

3535 W. 47th Street

Chicago, IL 60632

[sk farmer]

Seriously?

or just return them to your dealer at no charge. the 5 dollars is for shipping and handling. the dealer will not charge you five dollars and sk won't charge them either.

[dieseldodge01]

But they still send out free rebuild kits for ratchets. They are sending me one sometime within the week. I have a at least two dealers that will warranty my tools, so I'm covered.

[kooldino]

or just return them to your dealer at no charge. the 5 dollars is for shipping and handling. the dealer will not charge you five dollars and sk won't charge them either.

I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

[krusty the clown]

or just return them to your dealer at no charge. the 5 dollars is for shipping and handling. the dealer will not charge you five dollars and sk won't charge them either.

you had better REREAD..........

Tools returned to SK Hand Tool Corporation for warranty replacement will be assessed a shipping, handling, and processing fee of $5.00 per tool.

[Merkava_4]

or just return them to your dealer at no charge.

Where are you finding a walk-in SK dealer? Around here, all the prior SK dealers have replaced their inventory with Performance Tool.

[rhandwor]

Management is a large part of the blame. They pay Hugh salaries to themselves and this makes the employees mad. A lot of this would buy new machines to improve productivity and quality.
I purchased some torx plus bits and they were sent in five UPS shipments which cost more than the bits.

[sk farmer]

Where are you finding a walk-in SK dealer? Around here, all the prior SK dealers have replaced their inventory with Performance Tool.

farm city supply, breckenridge minn. 218-643-8401 approx.15 min drive.
acme electric, fargo,nd 701-476-4600
berg auto supply, fargo nd 701-232-8821 both about 40 minutes away

now why would i bs you merk? i don't make things up. north dakota probably has fewer people living in it than you do within thirty miles of you. you are a smart guy. you can't tell me that you can't find an sk dealer somewhere. the 15 minute drive is the area where i get many of my supplies and where my kids go to school. if i can find a dealer you can to. look!!!!!!!

[sk farmer]

you had better REREAD..........

Tools returned to SK Hand Tool Corporation for warranty replacement will be assessed a shipping, handling, and processing fee of $5.00 per tool.

okay krusty, i will bite. i missed the "and processing" i phoned the company and was assured that no charges would be made to dealer returns or retuns that dealers made. what did i miss? i reread it and see what you mean. i askrd and i was told that it was just 5dollars. i talked to someone high enough up the ladder to have their name in the catalog with a picture. they said that they were part of decision. have you talked to someone farther up the chain?

[Merkava_4]

now why would i bs you merk? i don't make things up.

I never accused you of bs - I just simply asked you where you were finding SK in your area and you answered my question. Thank you. :wtf:

[bry@n]

I have personally never had an issue with a SO dealer saying he wouldn't warranty something. I have personally gotten on a foreign truck, just to see what the response would be.

They all have QC issues but w/ SO it's easier to warranty IMO and now, it will be cheaper to warranty.

[GeorgiaHybrid]

acme electric, fargo,nd 701-476-4600
berg auto supply, fargo nd 701-232-8821

That's amazing !!! In a state with 10 people, 6 of whom live in Fargo and they have two supply stores!!!

Just kidding.... I have a customer with a division there and I always get a kick out of seeing the temps there in the winter. I hate the cold here until I see what you guys put up with. It makes Georgia's mid teens look balmy. :)