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Old 12-29-2011, 11:40 AM   #1
Bad Jackson
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Default Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

How old is a Craftsman table saw model # 113 22452? It looks old to me, like 70'sish. Its $200 on craigslist montana. Good deal?
Thanks.
Munsk.
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Old 12-29-2011, 11:47 AM   #2
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

I just looked up that ad you're referring to. I'm no Craftsman table saw expert, but based on the pics, that looks like an outstanding saw for the money.
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Old 12-29-2011, 11:52 AM   #3
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

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Originally Posted by Bad Jackson View Post
How old is a Craftsman table saw model # 113 22452? It looks old to me, like 70'sish. Its $200 on craigslist montana. Good deal?
Thanks.
Munsk.
Munsk,

If you have that number accurate, 113.22452, you have the exact same model # as mine:



$200 will be cheaper than mine after I picked up a motor mount and motor for it. Did yours come with a belt guard? If so, I'd give ya $50 for it

These saws were introduced in 1954 under King Seeley manufacture (code # 103.2xxxx) then were made by Emerson which denotes the 113 code. Production ended around 1966 or thereabouts. Given that yours is an Emerson (like mine) it was probably made in the 1960s. Did yours come with the original blade guard? If so, those are worth their weight in gold and you could probably recoup half the cost of the saw.

This saw is going to be my 'mainstay' 10" saw in the garage. Everything I have heard about these saws from owners of them is that they are an absolutely fantastic, well-built saw. The guts are mounted to the underside of the table, which while it makes alignment a little tough, it really is the most accurate and vibration-free design when you think about it, engineering wise. The trunnions are solid cast iron and the saw really has no deficiencies. Most report that the saw very easily cuts glass smooth.

Need some pictures!!!!!!!
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Currently looking for the following vintage Craftsman tools:
1940-1941 Craftsman 101.02180 9" cabinet saw - link
1956-1957 Craftsman 12" Foley-Belsaw planer - link
1940s floor press model 103-0304
1939-1940 10" band saw model 103.0101
Also looking for a 1942 Craftsman shop vise:
http://images116.fotki.com/v693/phot...49_01PM-vi.png

Last edited by Red Leader; 12-29-2011 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 12-29-2011, 12:43 PM   #4
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

I, on the other hand, would probably have an issue paying $100 for it.

Although it looks like a cabinet saw, it's really your standard enclosed base contractor style saw. The motor is hanging off the back and, as Red Leader already mentioned, the trunnions are attached to the table, rather than the cabinet as in a proper saw. It's also got the cheesy webbed wings.

You can buy an Emerson manufactured CMan saw equal to this on Craigslist for $75-150 all day long in most major metro areas. It simply won't have the enclosed base.

To turn it into a high performance saw, you'd also need to spend $100+ on a fence and get a blade guard that incorporates a splitter.

If you're going to be using it for "serious" projects - ie presents for friends/family, built-in cabinetry for your home (that you'll have to look at day after day) - then I would pass on this saw.

Last edited by porphyre; 12-29-2011 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 12-29-2011, 01:14 PM   #5
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

I'm afraid I don''t agree, quality work can indeed be done on that saw.
What is the matter with this chimney cupboard I did using this saw?

Also an Emerson manufactured CMan saw, more like mine will have cheap plastic handwheels, not the heavy duty metal ones shown on Red Leaders saw.

You need to go get it if you think you want it IMO it won't last long.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Cab 1.jpg (90.2 KB, 70 views)
File Type: jpg DSCN0510 save 2.jpg (92.2 KB, 61 views)

Last edited by mrbreezeet1; 12-29-2011 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 12-29-2011, 01:24 PM   #6
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

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Originally Posted by porphyre View Post
I, on the other hand, would probably have an issue paying $100 for it.

Although it looks like a cabinet saw, it's really your standard enclosed base contractor style saw. The motor is hanging off the back and, as Red Leader already mentioned, the trunnions are attached to the table, rather than the cabinet as in a proper saw. It's also got the cheesy webbed wings.

You can buy an Emerson manufactured CMan saw equal to this on Craigslist for $75-150 all day long in most major metro areas. It simply won't have the enclosed base.

To turn it into a high performance saw, you'd also need to spend $100+ on a fence and get a blade guard that incorporates a splitter.

If you're going to be using it for "serious" projects - ie presents for friends/family, built-in cabinetry for your home (that you'll have to look at day after day) - then I would pass on this saw.
If porphyre is right, I'll take it off your hands

I own both this saw and two Unisaws, and I do prefer the Craftsman by design. A lot of folks seem to believe that a cabinet mounted internals automatically infer superiority to a saw and some designs this may be so, and some designs not so. Having owned both a 1960s contractor style Craftsman bench saw and this cabinet/floor saw, the two are very different. The 22452 has big, solid cast iron extensions, acme threaded table raising/elevation gearing, and overbuilt castings. Even with that said, some folks have been knows to get zero runout on the arbor and arbor flange of even just the contractor style bench saws. And even then this saw is in a different league than those saws, which tend to use pot metal in some of the internal parts, including the trunnions.

There has been many a discussion on the 'mounted to the cabinet' and 'mounted to the table' debate, with some choosing a specific camp and writing off everything else. Using both, I don't hate either, but if well built, like the Craftsman 22452 or say the General 450 12" saws, a well-implemented 'mounted to the table' has very few equals, as it displaces vibration and allows for much less tolerance stacking, as it relies on the direct connection to the table/surface unit, instead of relying on the location of the mounting points on a completely separate, sheet metal cabinet.

Another hot debate was the use of the term 'cabinet' to refer to a saw with internals still mounted to the table vs the actual cabinet. I guess you could say I am in the camp that uses that definition to refer to a saw that has an enclosed base that extends to the floor, so it is more of an identification point rather than a technical definition.

You can visit the thread here and see the various viewpoints and discussion/debate that follows:

http://owwm.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=...ftsman+cabinet


The webbed extension is cheesy, I'll give you that. However, that is not the correct extension that goes with that saw. The correct extensions that originally came with this saw, while still open, are big, hefty, cast iron and nothing like the rough cast aluminum extension show in my photo above.

The fence for this saw I like much much better than the Unisaw style fence, having used both. It is heavy cast iron, weighs at least 20lbs, and is smoooooth. It doesn't have the wobbily factor that the Uni fence has.

All in all, it comes down to performance, and how well the saw cuts. While I have yet to do any extensive cutting with my Craftsman 22452 saw, every single owner I've talked to who owns one is mightily impressed with its cutting ability. When I get things all setup I'll be sure to do a lot of cutting with it and report back in my garage build thread.
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Currently looking for the following vintage Craftsman tools:
1940-1941 Craftsman 101.02180 9" cabinet saw - link
1956-1957 Craftsman 12" Foley-Belsaw planer - link
1940s floor press model 103-0304
1939-1940 10" band saw model 103.0101
Also looking for a 1942 Craftsman shop vise:
http://images116.fotki.com/v693/phot...49_01PM-vi.png
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:08 PM   #7
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

I think the saw is easily worth $200; even though it's designed more like a contractor unit. I would much prefer it to the 1990's era contractor saws I see for similar prices on CL around here, and they're all capable of doing good work if you take the time to properly align everything. Not to mention this model looks killer with the art deco design cues.

Having adjusted a few, I'll take cabinet-mounted trunions every time, but you won't find anything in the $200.00 range that has 'em. This would make someone a great first saw, but seriously consider adding an aftermarket splitter and blade guard (features that are standard on new saws now). A fence upgrade would be nice too, like a Delta t2 Biesemeyer clone for ~$150.
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:11 PM   #8
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

If it's listed for $200, see how far down you can get them. Bartering is expected on Craigslist, and many people list items for higher prices than they expect to get. If it's in really good condition $100 would be a great deal I think. $150 certainly wouldn't be too bad either.
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Old 12-29-2011, 03:14 PM   #9
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

Red Leader -

Well, you've got your opinions and I've got mine. It just seems that every modern manufacturer of professional grade 3hp & 5hp 10" table saws holds the same opinions I do.

I wouldn't buy that saw for $200 when modern, used, quality contractor saws are available for $50 more and you can get Delta T2's for $150. Used cabinet saws can be had for $500-$1000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Leader View Post
The fence for this saw I like much much better than the Unisaw style fence, having used both. It is heavy cast iron, weighs at least 20lbs, and is smoooooth. It doesn't have the wobbily factor that the Uni fence has.
Also, I'm talking about modern fences. A Delta T2 or a Biesemeyer. I have never, EVER, seen one of those fences be "wobbily". That's even referring to the ones installed on the floor demo models at Rockler and Woodcraft stores that have every Joe, Dick, and Harry messing with them.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:11 PM   #10
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

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Originally Posted by porphyre View Post
Red Leader -

Well, you've got your opinions and I've got mine.
And such is the beauty of life and what makes the world go 'round

I will say that if a table saw can achieve glass smooth 'glue line' cuts, whether it has its trunnions mounted underneath the table or in the cabinet makes little difference to me. I will say that historically, the Delta Unisaw became extremely popular due to Delta's marketing, their relationships with schools, and there expansive manufacturing capability. It quickly became the 'IT' saw and when you look at most of the cabinet saws out there today, they are copies of Deltas design, with slight changes (true with their bandsaws as well). The fact that most production caliber cabinet-style saws use cabinet mounted trunnions doesn't discount a separate design if that design can achieve equal/better results. I will say that a LOT of it comes down to manufacturing quality and the table mounted trunnion design has been soiled with many cheap saws that were terribly executed.

For an exceptional example of table mounted trunnion saws, the original Canadian Generals are just about as best as it gets, and built much more heavily than it's Delta or Powermatic counterparts.

Still...if someone wanted to give me a free 'cabinet-mounted' saw...I'm sure I'd take it

Maybe I'm just jealous that the OP has to opportunity to pick up that saw, more complete than mine, at a price that is lower than mine

To the OP - if I was you - I'd GET THAT SAW!!! You can retrofit a blade guard/splitter on it if you want (even though the picture of the saw shows a modern blade guard on it)...not to mention the extra 6HP 220v motor!

Lively debate guys
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Stop on by the


Currently looking for the following vintage Craftsman tools:
1940-1941 Craftsman 101.02180 9" cabinet saw - link
1956-1957 Craftsman 12" Foley-Belsaw planer - link
1940s floor press model 103-0304
1939-1940 10" band saw model 103.0101
Also looking for a 1942 Craftsman shop vise:
http://images116.fotki.com/v693/phot...49_01PM-vi.png
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:31 PM   #11
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

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Originally Posted by porphyre View Post
You can buy an Emerson manufactured CMan saw equal to this on Craigslist for $75-150 all day long in most major metro areas. It simply won't have the enclosed base.
Not in my major metro area...contractor saws are generally in the $250 and up range, cabinet saws are mostly nonexistent.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:43 PM   #12
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

Thanks for everyone's help. I think I am going to buy it, I just won't get the opprotunity to go look at it until Sunday now. I hope he doesn't sell first. Mostly because its affordable and it is a pretty good saw... and also because its vintage!!! Lucky Me!!
Thanks again.
Munsk.
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

does the 113.22452 have a hefty hand wheel on the side for the tilt, or is the tilt done with the front wheel also. (IE, pull out and turn)
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Old 12-29-2011, 08:48 PM   #14
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Jackson View Post
Thanks for everyone's help. I think I am going to buy it, I just won't get the opprotunity to go look at it until Sunday now. I hope he doesn't sell first. Mostly because its affordable and it is a pretty good saw... and also because its vintage!!! Lucky Me!!
Thanks again.
Munsk.
did he say he'd hold it for you?
Maybe you could pay pal him a deposit to hold it?
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Old 12-29-2011, 10:12 PM   #15
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

The handwheels on this saw are it's one major downfall. They are cheap, hollow pot metal. The ones on that saw actually look fantastic, but be aware that they are easily broken - I would definitely check them once you see the saw in person and inspect for cracks. It uses a proprietary mounting system as well, so you can't just swap out wheels without some machining involved. It is possible, however, with the right tools, to use a different wheel.

I believe all of them, the King Seeley and Emerson versions both used these wheels.

Other than that, the saw has no major issues. You might have to replace the bearings (I know I will have to eventually). Just check function to the best of your ability. The saw does transport well. I would advise a pickup/minivan/hatchback/anything that will keep you from taking off the table - it is heavier due to everything being mounted to it and requires an elaborate lift out. I lifted it out and put it back in myself and will NEVER do that again (not worth risking back injury).

Good luck!!! Remember - we like pictures!
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Stop on by the


Currently looking for the following vintage Craftsman tools:
1940-1941 Craftsman 101.02180 9" cabinet saw - link
1956-1957 Craftsman 12" Foley-Belsaw planer - link
1940s floor press model 103-0304
1939-1940 10" band saw model 103.0101
Also looking for a 1942 Craftsman shop vise:
http://images116.fotki.com/v693/phot...49_01PM-vi.png
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Old 12-29-2011, 10:32 PM   #16
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

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Originally Posted by porphyre View Post

You can buy an Emerson manufactured CMan saw equal to this on Craigslist for $75-150 all day long in most major metro areas. It simply won't have the enclosed base.
I know the saws you are talking about, and you are right. We've got them in the Denver metro area. There are, however, some major differences between those saws and this one. One of the biggest is the trunnions. The trunnions on this cabinet style saw are big and cast iron. Most if not all the trunnions on the contractor style saws are pot metal. The extensions on the contractor saws are those cheap flimsy aluminum ones or if they are cast iron, they are rough. Some of the newer saws have the stamped extensions, which I don't really like either. The 22452 has heavier duty cast iron extensions. Everything on the 22452 is overbuilt compared to the contractor saws. Even then, some of the older contractor saws (not all) are fantastically accurate and many built homes and more. Probably more than half the contractor saws on C/L are imported. I'm not sure when that happened but there was a huge quality shift that happened in the power tool industry and it happened around 1959/1960 and continued to go downhill. You see it in Craftsman, Delta, DeWalt and others. Some of the designs stayed the same but getting into the 1970s and 1980s most everything changed.

You do make a good point, however, about some of the elements of these old saws that stand to be updated. This saw, along with the Unisaw, is a great candidate for a Biesemeyer fence system. I'm going to use the stock fence until something convinces my to go with a bies, but it would definitely be an upgrade. A modern blade guard/splitter as well. More powerful motors are an easy swap, since the motor mount on the back accepts most motor mounting plates. I like the fact that it is heavily built, 100% American made, and can easily take upgrades to modernize it. Even though I am a huge Craftsman fan, I'll be the first to admit that they put out some 1st class junk. However, this saw, after seeing it, inspecting it, and having to move it (haha), is different.
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Stop on by the


Currently looking for the following vintage Craftsman tools:
1940-1941 Craftsman 101.02180 9" cabinet saw - link
1956-1957 Craftsman 12" Foley-Belsaw planer - link
1940s floor press model 103-0304
1939-1940 10" band saw model 103.0101
Also looking for a 1942 Craftsman shop vise:
http://images116.fotki.com/v693/phot...49_01PM-vi.png
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Old 12-29-2011, 11:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

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Originally Posted by Red Leader View Post
And such is the beauty of life and what makes the world go 'round

I will say that if a table saw can achieve glass smooth 'glue line' cuts, whether it has its trunnions mounted underneath the table or in the cabinet makes little difference to me.
Ha ha... in that situation, trunnion mounting makes little difference to the wood either... a glue line is produced by a quality blade mounted to a low run-out arbor. You can cut a glue line with a Skil saw and a Bora guide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Leader View Post
I will say that historically, the Delta Unisaw became extremely popular due to Delta's marketing, their relationships with schools, and there expansive manufacturing capability. It quickly became the 'IT' saw and when you look at most of the cabinet saws out there today, they are copies of Deltas design, with slight changes (true with their bandsaws as well). The fact that most production caliber cabinet-style saws use cabinet mounted trunnions doesn't discount a separate design if that design can achieve equal/better results. I will say that a LOT of it comes down to manufacturing quality and the table mounted trunnion design has been soiled with many cheap saws that were terribly executed.
Well..... I think the saw market is mature enough that you can discount the table mounted design as inferior. The market has spoken. Think of it as disc brakes vs drums. Drum brakes are still used on new cars. Economy cars. Could you get a table mounted trunnion design to work as well as a cabinet mounted design... perhaps. But how much extra effort would you have to expend and what would the compromises be? How about cost? It really IS possible to build a better mousetrap. Making it affordable is the hard part.

Why don't we talk about direct drive jobsite saws instead.....?
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Old 12-29-2011, 11:18 PM   #18
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

if thats as nice as reds saw you need to buy it

bob
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Old 12-30-2011, 12:58 AM   #19
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

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if thats as nice as reds saw you need to buy it

bob
That saw (I saw some pictures of it) looks equally as nice, and comes with the motor, mount and belt guard, all of which were missing on mine
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Stop on by the


Currently looking for the following vintage Craftsman tools:
1940-1941 Craftsman 101.02180 9" cabinet saw - link
1956-1957 Craftsman 12" Foley-Belsaw planer - link
1940s floor press model 103-0304
1939-1940 10" band saw model 103.0101
Also looking for a 1942 Craftsman shop vise:
http://images116.fotki.com/v693/phot...49_01PM-vi.png
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Old 12-30-2011, 01:23 AM   #20
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Default Re: Craftsman table saw... Vintage???

Quote:
Originally Posted by porphyre View Post
Ha ha... in that situation, trunnion mounting makes little difference to the wood either... a glue line is produced by a quality blade mounted to a low run-out arbor. You can cut a glue line with a Skil saw and a Bora guide.



Well..... I think the saw market is mature enough that you can discount the table mounted design as inferior. The market has spoken. Think of it as disc brakes vs drums. Drum brakes are still used on new cars. Economy cars. Could you get a table mounted trunnion design to work as well as a cabinet mounted design... perhaps. But how much extra effort would you have to expend and what would the compromises be? How about cost? It really IS possible to build a better mousetrap. Making it affordable is the hard part.

Why don't we talk about direct drive jobsite saws instead.....?

You make some pretty good points. The market idea is tricky though, because popularity doesn't automatically equate to superiority. The market is also flooded with import tools because that is what the market has spoken. Can quality be correlated with trends?

My argument: I see a table-mounted saw of equal quality to be slightly superior to a cabinet-mounted saw of equal quality because the cabinet-mounted saw usually has its table bolted on to 4 corner tabs of the sheet metal cabinet which rely on the levelness of the sheet metal and the welding to align to the blade. I have seen examples of the sheet metal tabs that hold the table in alignment to the blade become bent or, if taking a load from above, become easily damaged while the table is still attached (mild sheet metal steel):



That being said, I am inclined to agree with you. I think 99% of all table mounted saws are crap compared to the professional woodworking quality cabinet mount saws. However, there are some table mount saws I would consider superior (in terms of rigidity, precision, able to hold true) to
some cabinet mount saws:



The saw in question:




...and visa versa. I suppose my true argument is not one of product, but of engineering. I think that the armature that controls the blade has a better chance of making a better cut if directly mated to the precision machined surface that the wood rides directly above than securing the whole shebang to sheet metal tabs that act as a 3rd link between the blade and the table.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on why you have your perspective, I sincerely do

And at the end of the day, there is a lot of respect that goes around and we are all still friends

-Dave, who just used his cabinet-mounted-trunnion pos Unisaw to build his workbench cabinets
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Stop on by the


Currently looking for the following vintage Craftsman tools:
1940-1941 Craftsman 101.02180 9" cabinet saw - link
1956-1957 Craftsman 12" Foley-Belsaw planer - link
1940s floor press model 103-0304
1939-1940 10" band saw model 103.0101
Also looking for a 1942 Craftsman shop vise:
http://images116.fotki.com/v693/phot...49_01PM-vi.png

Last edited by Red Leader; 12-30-2011 at 01:52 AM.
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