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Old 03-09-2012, 09:23 AM   #1
rsanter
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Default what is the best lock? unpickable? uncuttable?

what is the best lock for a door? one that cannot be cut drilled or picked? is there such a thing?

also for a padlock...is there one that cannot be cut, picked or otherwise??

bob
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:38 AM   #2
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

A pad lock with an "ACE" tumbler is not "easy" to pick, and as far as cutting locks off, if someone has a grinder or a torch, I dont know of anything that is afford-ably commercially available that will slow anyone down.

I keep this style padlock I use on my truck (that has tools, it can be cut, but not readily picked)
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:45 AM   #3
rlitman
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

Cylindrical locks are seriously easy to pick. Look up the videos of people opening them with modified Bic pens.

Abloy cylinders are highly resistant to picking or drilling, but are a little weird in their operation.
Medeco cylinders (the ones with the real sidebar installed) are also pretty pick proof.
I have a few Miwa magnetic cam locks that came from Japanese gambling machines. Those are as tamperproof as I've ever seen.

But you're asking about something that cannot be cut or drilled. What sort of vault door and wall is this going into? Anyone with a gas demolition saw isn't going to have a hard time cutting just about any lock or door (perhaps doing it inconspicuously is more difficult though).

No matter how strong you fortify a door, there is always a way in. The most you'll get from a better lock, is some form of evidence left behind of forced entry. That alone however was enough for me to choose to use Medeco locks on my home.

Last edited by rlitman; 03-09-2012 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:57 AM   #4
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

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Originally Posted by rlitman View Post
Cylindrical locks are seriously easy to pick. Look up the videos of people opening them with modified Bic pens.
Ok, I stand corrected, prior to youtube, they where considered not an easy "pic".
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:43 AM   #5
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

Master makes a hidden shackle lock and hasp that looks pretty secure
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:53 AM   #6
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

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Ok, I stand corrected, prior to youtube, they where considered not an easy "pic".
Yeah, they used to be considered very safe. The theory was pretty good, and if you managed to pick one, it would only turn a slight angle before locking up again. Reality set in hard though, when somebody figured out the technique a few years back, which forced Kryptonite to have a huge recall of locks, and changed everything over to a traditional key (which isn't bump resistant that I know of).
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:53 AM   #7
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

You asked, here is your answer. Mul-T-Lock
http://www.mul-t-lock.com/306.html
It is available in any lock i.e. deadbolt, knob, padlock, cam lock, etc.
PM me if you have any specific questions.
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:59 AM   #8
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

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You asked, here is your answer. Mul-T-Lock
http://www.mul-t-lock.com/306.html
It is available in any lock i.e. deadbolt, knob, padlock, cam lock, etc.
PM me if you have any specific questions.
I've dealt with those, and the system appears to be pretty pick resistant.
It's probably secure enough in the US, however years back there was a huge scandal where a factory worker was taking home duplicate keys, and selling them to thieves.

Their pin-in-pin design is unique to them, but doesn't offer much better bump resistance than other designs. They have been bumped with specially modified keys (it's a little more elaborate than a standard bump key, as it requires a special back-stop). That's my biggest issue with them. If it can be bumped, it can be opened, with no outward signs of force.

At least with the Kwikset smartkey system that people have opened with a screwdriver, the bent pins inside are a dead giveaway.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:10 AM   #9
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

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Old 03-09-2012, 11:46 AM   #10
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

I know someone willing to put in the time can get into anything, I want to knock off the 98percent of society that will put some effort but stop short of a mission impossible scenario

Bob
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:52 AM   #11
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

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Originally Posted by rsanter View Post
what is the best lock for a door? one that cannot be cut drilled or picked? is there such a thing?

also for a padlock...is there one that cannot be cut, picked or otherwise??

bob
If noise isn't an issue to someone wanting in, a lock merely slows them down.

One of the techniques a few years ago was to put a bumper jack in a door jam sideways, crank the handle until the frame pushed apart near the lock. The wood frame around the door will bend or crush, allowing the bolt to swing free of the frame.

Padlocks are a joke. Put a pipe wrench on it and twist until either the lock comes apart, or the shackle rips from the door.

Two years ago I had a storage until broken into. Dozens were hit that night. This was inside a fenced area, with security cameras, and a guard living on the compound. He never heard a thing. Cut padlocks littered the ground.

A 36" bolt cutter slices easily through a 3/8" shank on a hardened padlock. I've tried this myself, after my stuff was stolen, to find out how easy it was for them. This was EASY, and very quiet. I also tried it with a 24" bolt cutter, this was a LOT more difficult.








After that, I started using a padlock with a hidden shank. Can't get a bite with a bolt cutter on these. But a year later, the lock failed, and I had to cut mine off. I let the office know what I was doing, so nobody would call the cops! The 18V Dewalt grinder with a cutoff wheel sliced through the stainless steel body, and the lock shank, in very short order. It did make a lot of noise, but nobody stopped by to see what the noise was, not even people storing stuff in their units, who had no clue what I was up to.







I no longer store stuff in storage units! I keep things at home, behind several locks, a security system, including CCTV cameras. The home owner has something for crooks too.

So how long does it take to cut through a 3/8" padlock with a Dremel? 45 seconds. How long with a Dewalt 18V grinder with a cutoff wheel? 10 seconds. With a 36" bolt cutter? About 5 seconds, with very little noise.

Video of the power tools slicing up one of my locks: http://youtu.be/8HxVb_gg_Q8

I hate crooks.
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:02 PM   #12
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

The brass cylinders in those disc locks are also easy drillable. Abus makes a better version. There are plenty of bolt cutter resistant locks. I've got an Abloy Enforcer with a 5/8" boron steel shank. It's just hard to find a hasp that it will fit, but it would probably defeat a 6' bolt cutter. Other designs (like the disc lock) have a shank that is hard to get to, or a puck lock (wouldn't fit your storage hasp though) where everything is totally enclosed.

Still, somebody would probably have noticed it if a few dozen locks were cut off with a grinder at night.
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Old 03-09-2012, 01:28 PM   #13
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlitman View Post
I've dealt with those, and the system appears to be pretty pick resistant.
It's probably secure enough in the US, however years back there was a huge scandal where a factory worker was taking home duplicate keys, and selling them to thieves.

Their pin-in-pin design is unique to them, but doesn't offer much better bump resistance than other designs. They have been bumped with specially modified keys (it's a little more elaborate than a standard bump key, as it requires a special back-stop). That's my biggest issue with them. If it can be bumped, it can be opened, with no outward signs of force.

At least with the Kwikset smartkey system that people have opened with a screwdriver, the bent pins inside are a dead giveaway.
Giving out keys would do no good as the factory does not know who or where the locks are actually being installed.
Second the old standard multlock original can be bumped (black head) with expensive specialty tools but the new interactive and mt5 can not be bumped.
Third, you'd rather have a kwikset lock that can be defeated by a moron and a screwdriver than even the original multlock that requires tools and knowledge to possibly open? Just wanted to understand your logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rsanter View Post
I know someone willing to put in the time can get into anything, I want to knock off the 98percent of society that will put some effort but stop short of a mission impossible scenario

Bob
Than multlock is the way to go. If its created by man it can be destroyed by man. Multlock will slow them down for sure.
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Old 03-09-2012, 01:42 PM   #14
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

Weld it shut...
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Old 03-09-2012, 01:49 PM   #15
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

BiLock, Schlage Primus, locks like those for doors. Of course you'll want a nice door to go with it if you're spending that kind of dough on the locks. They're really nice... and expensive. Very secure designs.
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Old 03-09-2012, 02:49 PM   #16
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manytoyz View Post
If noise isn't an issue to someone wanting in, a lock merely slows them down.
I disagree. It would be quicker to break my patio door than to get out my keys and unlock it.

The best way, I think, would be to shield the lock so that you only have access to the key hole. Then there would be no way to use the bolt cutters, and a grinder would have a lot more material to go through.
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Old 03-09-2012, 03:14 PM   #17
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

I owned a locksmith service for 15 years I found that the Medeco, Schlage Primus, to name a couple are very pick resistant cylinders.

If you are looking for a padlock and hasp type set up look for the American puck lock, (do a google and click images) they are very difficult to defeat, they have mushroom pins that make the bumping and picking harder than most. They are much stronger than almost any hasp mount on the market, so the hasp would be your weak link.

Like mentioned above, you can put a $250 lock on a door with a 3/4 inch wood jamb, and guess what, the lock will hold, but a swift kick will split the door jamb. Security is done as a whole package, not just the lock.

My personal feeling is that you want it to look as hard as possible to break in hoping they go somewhere else. Now if you have valuables and the thieves know it, and they want in, you want to make it as hard as possible to break in, PLUS, you want a security system that sounds an alarm, notifies you or some monitoring desk, and you want it all on video.

I was also a cop for 26 years, video systems are great because in most (I said MOST) areas the cops know the bad guys, they could guess who was stealing what, but they need the video to ID them and pick them up.

ALSO, don't forget the insurance policy.

Jim
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Old 03-09-2012, 03:16 PM   #18
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoToys View Post
Giving out keys would do no good as the factory does not know who or where the locks are actually being installed.
Second the old standard multlock original can be bumped (black head) with expensive specialty tools but the new interactive and mt5 can not be bumped.
Third, you'd rather have a kwikset lock that can be defeated by a moron and a screwdriver than even the original multlock that requires tools and knowledge to possibly open? Just wanted to understand your logic.
I'm not too familiar with the new mt5 (I've read a few things about it, but that's all). The issue with stolen keys was not in the US. Their original sales concept was not in selling locks, but in high security doors (think of a custom steel door with a deadbolt system with latches that stick out of all four sides into a custom frame), all secured with their custom lock design. It was a soup to nuts package, and the factory was selling the doors and doing the installation. Anyway, this was 20+ years ago.

No, I'm not necessarily advocating Kwikset for high security, but for a residential lockset, you just want three things.
1) Enough brute force strength to resist a kick in (although the point of failure here is usually the strike-plate/door-frame and how well it is installed)
2) Enough security to make your house appear to be more formidable a target than similar houses in your neighborhood.
3) Something that leaves behind proof of forced entry. This is foremost in my opinion, as it is often necessary to make an insurance claim, and is why ANYTHING that can be opened without leaving signs of damage is worthless IMHO.

Kwikset meets 1 and 3, just fine (installed correctly), and may be fine for #2 depending on your neighborhood or what can be seen through your windows.
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Old 03-09-2012, 04:45 PM   #19
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

I had a friend that swore by the Mul-T-Lok and she spent big bucks to have those installed on her home. Reading all the ways to defeat door locks and especially the car jack to the door frame sort of makes all the locks rather a moot subject. My common response to all the heavy duty locks on her house or most any house for that matter was that if someone wanted in bad enough then a window would certainly be an easy pass through. My father always said make it look tough, don't advertise what you have and that was the best security. His advice and luck has kept me in good shape. The one time I was broken into they took either a pipe wrench or a big pair of pliers and just twisted the door knob. Of course I was too lazy to set the deadbolt that day and lost nothing but a VCR. But now I'm back to my father's advice.

Wish us all luck that it's not our house they pick.............

Lisa
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Old 03-09-2012, 07:16 PM   #20
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Default Re: what is the best lock? unpickable? uncutable?

I have Medeco locks on my house. They're expensive, but very high quality.
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