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Old 05-10-2012, 07:36 PM   #1
aussiek2000
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Default 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Are people stupid? They wonder why they have trans/engine/suspension problems and they are towing 5th wheels with a half ton pickup. /end rant



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Old 05-10-2012, 08:05 PM   #2
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

That first picture is a fifth wheel and a trailer too! Good lord, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:14 PM   #3
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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Originally Posted by Strouty View Post
That first picture is a fifth wheel and a trailer too! Good lord, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
I've driven Fords, I don't even think it can.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

I don't see anything wrong. 5th wheels are alot easier to pull versus trailers. Comes down to weight.. the first ones probably are close and the last one defiantly is in ok range. In a pinch had to pull a over 10k 5th wheel with my F150 it did fine in the non-mountainous Missouri.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:21 PM   #5
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

The first truck is a little over the top. I don't know about the rest. I googled the amer lite in the last pic it's only 4300 pounds.

Years ago when I worked on cars a 6 cylinder half ton Chevy came in for something, can't remember. One complaint was the door wouldn't shut right. Fifth wheel hitch in the bed and the truck was bowed like a banana. He was hauling hay with it.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:29 PM   #6
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

I have a 98 F150 and pull a 32 5r with 14 foot bass boat on back of that on a regular basis. Backing is a little hard, but she pulls just fine - until I got down in the smokey mts.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:43 PM   #7
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

We were just eyeballing an older 19/20' 5th... Well within the limits of the trucks gvw / gcwr...

But those were older 5ths, these newer ones with power everything and slides and... They weigh a lot more
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:45 PM   #8
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Someone had a 5th wheel in my 97 F150 and bolted it to the bed, not the frame.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:47 PM   #9
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

The first ford maybe over the top but the rest look within each trucks safe capability. The more weight you can put over that rear axle and eliminate overhang the better.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:49 PM   #10
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Most of the pickup / travel trailer outfits I see these days are pretty scary to me. Tall, long, with tiny little axles and tires, electric brakes and next to no tongue weight on the pickup. Doubles? With a pickup? They're just in a hurry to die.

I always get a laugh when the driver of said combination says "I can't even feel it back there."
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:51 PM   #11
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Even though the newer one have slides and appliances and etc...most are still lighter than the older models. Most newer trailers have aluminum frames and lighter duty interiors. I have a 34 foot 5er with 2 slides it weighs right at 11,500 empty, notice I said empty. My dad has a 1985 model 29 foot tag along with no slides that weighs right at 10,900 empty. Although mine is 5 foot longer and the added weight of the slides it's only 600 lbs heavier. I pull it with the truck that's in my avatar, a dodge cummins 2500. Cant even tell its back there till you get a strong cross wind, then it gets interesting.
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Old 05-10-2012, 08:56 PM   #12
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

I don't care if the truck is "rated" for it. Have you ever been under a newer half ton? The axles are weak as hell and they've only got 2-3 leafs. Of course, I do tow a bass boat with a 3/4 ton.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:18 PM   #13
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

As long as the manufacturers inflate the capabilities of current 1/2 tons to what 3/4 and 1 tons were 15 years ago, people are going to do stupid things with them.

My wife has said that we should get a pop up or small camper. I told her no way in hell until I can also afford a 3/4 ton truck (and all of the extra gas) to pull it.

Pulling a trailer is like flying. You don't have to take off, but if you do, you have to land.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:30 PM   #14
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

I've seen worse. My grandfather, rest his soul, used a 4cyl Nissan 720 to pull a 5th wheel camper all over the place. The truck apparently had stronger springs added, but that doesn't make it much better.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:38 PM   #15
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Without knowing what these Vehicles are packing in the Rear Spring department its impossible to pass judgement, Lots of Aftermarket Add a Leaf/Bag stuff for 1/2 Ton pickups. Most of your 1/2 Ton pickups are loaded to the Gills in the Motor department, Throw a Brake Controller and a Cautious Driver and Take off. Its Hard to tell by the Pictures but only #5 looks like it might be a little light in Rear Suspension Department.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:40 PM   #16
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Back when I was a kid I saw more than one thirty or or so foot long Airstream being pulled by a GTO. If you have a steady hand you can get away with anything!
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:46 PM   #17
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

How about a header on a Buick?


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Old 05-10-2012, 09:51 PM   #18
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

There isn't one of those rigs that I wouldn't consider beyond stupid. I can virtually guarantee you that every one is over max gcvw, and Captain Clueless is toodling without a care down the highway, a menace to all he shares the road with. Overload springs don't cut it, the frames aren't strong enough. Cautious driver or not, all it takes is someone cutting them off and it's all over the highway.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:51 PM   #19
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

I see allot of stupid stuff around here, like half tons pulling massive empty grain wagons, but Ive never seen a car pulling head before. I bet the trans axle in that park is just loving that !
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

We have a customer that is on her 3rd engine (4.6) in a Dodge 1500. She has a fifth wheel and pulls her RV in the hills of Tennesee. She doesn't listen very well, but it is good for business.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:08 PM   #21
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

my 2c, number 4 is borderline acceptable and number 5 is ok by me. the first three, not so much. step up to a good 3/4 or 1 ton and be good to tow any of those comfortably.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:13 PM   #22
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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Originally Posted by odelay01 View Post
We have a customer that is on her 3rd engine (4.6) in a Dodge 1500. She has a fifth wheel and pulls her RV in the hills of Tennesee. She doesn't listen very well, but it is good for business.
The sad thing is most of these idiot's trucklets are going to be under warranty, and they will whine and cry until the factory covers the repairs, driving up the price of vehicles for the rest of us to cover the cost of their stupidity.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:19 PM   #23
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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Originally Posted by Lotek View Post
There isn't one of those rigs that I wouldn't consider beyond stupid. I can virtually guarantee you that every one is over max gcvw, and Captain Clueless is toodling without a care down the highway, a menace to all he shares the road with. Overload springs don't cut it, the frames aren't strong enough. Cautious driver or not, all it takes is someone cutting them off and it's all over the highway.
Curious? How much difference does it make between a 1/2 Ton being cut off and a +3/4 Ton? Also Curious to your Overload Spring Comment? Frame Geometry is very important when towing anything and Light Front ends can cause Serious Problems.

My last 1/2 Ton was a F150 that had a 9400lb towing capacity, Mind you i Never came close to Maxing it out and if i Was Towing a 5th wheel Every other weekend i would definitely wouldnt look for a 1/2 Ton. It appears that there are a few Keystone trailers in the OP Pics and they are somewhat known for producing light weight Campers with the majority of there stuff below 7K. Im not trying to argue that a 1/2 Ton pickup is the best option but im Not quick to jump on the "Look at these Idiots" Bandwagon.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:22 PM   #24
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

So, is there truck enough here for this RV? (Just askin...).
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:25 PM   #25
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Truth of the matter is, manufacturers have been beefing up the lower capacity trucks for years now. What required at minimum a 3/4 ton truck, you can do with a 1/2 ton now.

Hell, I have a little 1/4 ton Ranger, and I occasionally tow enough weight to be damn near at the weight limit on the thing. Its weight rating is higher than what 1/2 tons from 20-30 years ago were rated at. Steel car trailer and car with a Ranger? Yes I drive very slow, and have trailer brakes.

I once had 1,500lb of scrap steel in the bed, damn thing was an inch off of the bumpers at the rear axle.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:41 PM   #26
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Those are all shortbeds, with adaptor hitches, right off the bat, the geometry is wrong, the trailer is cantilevered to the rear of the correct hitch point over the rear axle to clear the cab. Overload or helper springs will keep the rear end from sagging due to the excessive weight, but the frame, axle and brakes are undersized for the load. There is a big difference between a 1/2ton and a 3/4ton, nowadays the only difference between a 3/4ton and a 1ton is the rear springs. Frame, engines, trans, and brakes are identical. The GCWR on my 3/4ton xcab, longbed 4x4 diesel is 22000lbs, the gcwr on a 1/2ton shortbed crewcab is 12000lbs...nuff said.
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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. "

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Old 05-10-2012, 11:00 PM   #27
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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Those are all shortbeds, with adaptor hitches, right off the bat, the geometry is wrong, the trailer is cantilevered to the rear of the correct hitch point over the rear axle to clear the cab. Overload or helper springs will keep the rear end from sagging due to the excessive weight, but the frame, axle and brakes are undersized for the load. There is a big difference between a 1/2ton and a 3/4ton, nowadays the only difference between a 3/4ton and a 1ton is the rear springs. Frame, engines, trans, and brakes are identical. The GCWR on my 3/4ton xcab, longbed 4x4 diesel is 22000lbs, the gcwr on a 1/2ton shortbed crewcab is 12000lbs...nuff said.
I know you said "Nuff Said" but this is a Discussion forum as i suspected your GCWR was quite light in your comparison between 1/2 Ton Shortbed Crewcabs as its quite a bit higher than 12K <--- A quick Google shows 15K for most Flavors. Obviously No where near 22k but there not Diesel equipped Long beds. Suprisingly a 2012 GM 2500 in 4x4, Gasser trim only caries a 16K GCWR... I really thought it would be higher.
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:39 PM   #28
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

with a 150 or other half ton just because it does pull does not mean it is safe.
Biggest issue is in braking. Like a fool I pulled a 22' Boat behind my 1996 5.0L Ranger just because I could. That is until I had to brake. Might as well forget that even though it was fun passing everyone up on the upside of hill it was downright dangerous because of braking.

At boat ramp with the ramp a bit wet I turned around and started to back towards water.... Good thing it was clear as the brakes did nothing!

Another time I had a super nice F150 with a hotter engine that pulled fine with only 2 quads on back and a light trailer. All was well and good until I tried to stop on wet roads. That scared me enough to buy a real truck even for towing under 2000lbs.

On wet roads the average half ton pickup is not safe with over 5000lbs and a lot of times less than that I do not care which brand other than the new 2011-12 Fords. A older F150 or half ton with over 3000lbs is not safe in the braking department.

Even with my 7.3L powered F250 towing upwards of 10000lbs did not feel safe and it was rated for a bunch more than that, actually empty @ 5000lbs did not feel safe
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:57 PM   #29
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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Originally Posted by Hiball View Post
I know you said "Nuff Said" but this is a Discussion forum as i suspected your GCWR was quite light in your comparison between 1/2 Ton Shortbed Crewcabs as its quite a bit higher than 12K <--- A quick Google shows 15K for most Flavors. Obviously No where near 22k but there not Diesel equipped Long beds. Suprisingly a 2012 GM 2500 in 4x4, Gasser trim only caries a 16K GCWR... I really thought it would be higher.
C-1500 Crew Cab Short Box (2WD)*



Axle Ratio Maximum Trailer Weight GCWR+

4.8L V8 3.23 4,600 lbs (2 086 kg) 10,000 lbs (4 536 kg)
3.73 4,600 lbs (2 086 kg) 12,000 lbs (5 443 kg)

5.3L V8 3.42 6,600 lbs (2 994 kg) 12,000 lbs (5 443 kg)
3.73 7,600 lbs (3 447 kg) 13,000 lbs (5 897 kg)

6.0L V8 3.73 8,700 lbs (3 946 kg) 14,000 lbs (6 350 kg)

6.0L V8**3.73 10,200 lbs (4 627 kg) 15,500 lbs (7 031 kg)



*This model is neither designed nor intended to tow fifth-wheel or gooseneck trailers. **NHT Enhanced Trailering Performance Package required.

+The Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) is the total allowable weight of the completely loaded vehicle and trailer including any passengers, cargo, equipment and conversions. The GCWR for your vehicle should not be exceeded.

Pulled that right out of GM Service information for 07, to compare to my 07, I picked the most common version, 5.3L, tall gears, note the note at the bottom...


<edit>Just doublechecked the 2012, shortbed pickups still have the same warning, tow capacities for hd tow package equipped trucks go to 15k, but that is still light in my book, and remember that's the combined weight of the truck, trailer, passengers, fuel and crap in the back. 2500hd 6.0 longbed is 20,500, don't know where you found 16k.
I work on these, I see the damage, I tow a 14k gooseneck horsetrailer, I have a few miles under my belt...
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"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. "

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Last edited by Lotek; 05-11-2012 at 12:25 AM. Reason: Added info, fixed graph
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:05 AM   #30
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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C-1500 Crew Cab Short Box (2WD)*



Axle Ratio



Maximum Trailer Weight



GCWR+




4.8L V8


3.23

3.73


4,600 lbs (2 086 kg)

6,600 lbs (2 994 kg)


10,000 lbs (4 536 kg)

12,000 lbs (5 443 kg)



5.3L V8


3.42

3.73


6,600 lbs (2 994 kg)

7,600 lbs (3 447 kg)


12,000 lbs (5 443 kg)

13,000 lbs (5 897 kg)



6.0L V8


3.73


8,700 lbs (3 946 kg)


14,000 lbs (6 350 kg)



6.0L V8**


3.73


10,200 lbs (4 627 kg)


15,500 lbs (7 031 kg)



*This model is neither designed nor intended to tow fifth-wheel or gooseneck trailers.

Pulled that right out of GM Service information for 07, to compare to my 07, I picked the most common version, 5.3L, tall gears, note the note at the bottom...
It lists the Model as a C1500 2 wheel Drive Does GM offer the 6.0 in 1/2 ton form?

Edit.. I see they offered in 1500HD Form.

I was gathering my Info off a Past vehicle and looking at Specs for New Trucks similar to the ones pictured by the OP. The Manufacturers have broke down towing capacities in regards to Conventional verus 5th wheel in 1/2 ton up to 1 ton on there Respective Sites.
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:31 AM   #31
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

I have a tundra pretty much like the one in pic #3.

Previously I had a 2004 3/4 ton suburban 4x4 with tow package and 4.10 gears.

The Tundra will out tow, out brake and out handle the suburban all day long. There's simply no comparison between the two. Other than the interior room of the Suburban, I can't think of one thing that was better about it than the Toyota.

I had about 12-13K behind the Tundra last weekend for about 100 miles in some pretty big hills - and towed 7500 or so for another 175 miles. I knew it was back there, but the truck didn't struggle that much. Yeah, I know that's over the 11k towing rating.

My Suburban struggled towing anything over 8,000 lbs. The 4 wheel drive sucked compared to the toyota. No way I would have put the same kind of weight behind the Chevy. Plus, the Tundra was getting 12mpg with that 12K load after I got out of the steep stuff. I barely got 12mpg out of the Burb unloaded. It went down to 6-8 with my 7500lb trailer.

I've had that Truck nearly two years now, and I've worked it harder than any truck I've ever had - I've towed trailers with forklifts and tractors and heavy machine tools. I've drug stuff out of muddy fields. I've loaded 2,000 lbs in the bed and towed 5,000 lbs behind it - with no trailer brakes. I can't imagine doing the stuff I do with it with any of my past 3/4 ton trucks, let alone any of the 1/2 tons.

Think whatever you want, but you simply don't know what you are talking about until you've used one.

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Old 05-11-2012, 12:38 AM   #32
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Hiball, most of the trucks pictured looked like 2wd, so that's what I looked up.

As far as going over gcwr, well that isn't impressive, it's just dumb and dangerous. If you don't know, have it weighed at a public scale. As someone else said, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

I haul horses, we take it a bit more seriously than the average weekend warrior.
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Another example of when God turns to Darwin and says "I thought you were going to fix this s@#t".

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. "

"I have a hammer! I can put things together! I can knock things apart! I can alter my environment at will and make an incredible din all the while! Ah, it's great to be male!" -Calvin

Last edited by Lotek; 05-11-2012 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:41 AM   #33
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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<edit>Just doublechecked the 2012, shortbed pickups still have the same warning, tow capacities for hd tow package equipped trucks go to 15k, but that is still light in my book, and remember that's the combined weight of the truck, trailer, passengers, fuel and crap in the back. 2500hd 6.0 longbed is 20,500, don't know where you found 16k.
I work on these, I see the damage, I tow a 14k gooseneck horsetrailer, I have a few miles under my belt...
I just went back and double checked the GM website, I didnt read far enough into the Spec page.

3.73 Gears max out at 16k On all 2500 Models/Cab Configurations.
4.10 is 20500lbs.

I fully understand how GCWR works.

Good Discussion but i still believe a 2012 F150 5.0 3.73 with a 15300 GCWR (EcoBoost 3.5 V6 cas a 17100 GCWR) could safely handle one of these 4-7K 5th Wheel Campers. I believe Ford has made Brake controllers Standard on most of there F150 with Towing Packages which would definitely Aid with Stopping Power.


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Originally Posted by Lotek View Post
Hiball, most of the trucks pictured looked like 2wd, so that's what I looked up.

As far as going over gcwr, well that isn't impressive, it's just dumb and dangerous. If you don't know, have it weighed at a public scale. As someone else said, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

I haul horses, we take it a bit more seriously than the average weekend warrior.
I think there all 4x4 1/2 Tons, With the Exception of the one that actually looks like a 3/4 ton 4x4 GM, Again.. I Never claimed it was smart to Exceed GCWR.. Obviously if your pulling 14k trailers around fairly often, its best to stay away from 1/2 ton trucks. How often do you think these 5th wheel trailers with 4-7K weights are being pulled? I expect not very often on Average....
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:52 AM   #34
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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I just went back and double checked the GM website, I didnt read far enough into the Spec page.

3.73 Gears max out at 16k On all 2500 Models/Cab Configurations.
4.10 is 20500lbs.

I fully understand how GCWR works.

Good Discussion but i still believe a 2012 F150 5.0 3.73 with a 15300 GCWR (EcoBoost 3.5 V6 cas a 17100 GCWR) could safely handle one of these 4-7K 5th Wheel Campers. I believe Ford has made Brake controllers Standard on most of there F150 with Towing Packages which would definitely Aid with Stopping Power.




I think there all 4x4 1/2 Tons, With the Exception of the one that actually looks like a 3/4 ton 4x4 GM, Again.. I Never claimed it was smart to Exceed GCWR.. Obviously if your pulling 14k trailers around fairly often, its best to stay away from 1/2 ton trucks. How often do you think these 5th wheel trailers with 4-7K weights are being pulled? I expect not very often on Average....
Hard to tell 4x vs 2x, but that only gives you 1000 more because of the gears.

And the last bit is even more reason to go large on the truck, adding an inexperienced driver to a maxed out rig is a recipe for disaster, I give these guys a lot of room as they blast past me at 70mph on the freeway.
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:40 AM   #35
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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The sad thing is most of these idiot's trucklets are going to be under warranty, and they will whine and cry until the factory covers the repairs, driving up the price of vehicles for the rest of us to cover the cost of their stupidity.
Just like your other post says. These trucks are not designed to pull 5th wheels. The regional warranty rep WILL NOT cover any truck if it has a 5th wheel in the bed.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:11 AM   #36
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I don't see anything wrong provided that the weight ratings are met for the truck's specific configurations. I think in some of those pictures the weight might exceed the trucks capacities.

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I don't care if the truck is "rated" for it. Have you ever been under a newer half ton? The axles are weak as hell and they've only got 2-3 leafs. Of course, I do tow a bass boat with a 3/4 ton.
Really? What facts do you have to back this up with? Modern 1/2 tonners can pull incredible capacity... in fact, some of the new 1/2 ton trucks can out-pull older 3/4 ton trucks. The newer trucks also have higher tongue ratings too than their much older predecessors.

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Truth of the matter is, manufacturers have been beefing up the lower capacity trucks for years now. What required at minimum a 3/4 ton truck, you can do with a 1/2 ton now.
In a lot of new generation trucks this is true.

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Just like your other post says. These trucks are not designed to pull 5th wheels. The regional warranty rep WILL NOT cover any truck if it has a 5th wheel in the bed.
One again, where are your facts?


I have several friends with 5th wheelers and 1/2ton trucks and they all get warranty work. In fact, the dealer even OFFERS 5th wheel hitches installed when you buy the truck.

So I am curious, where are your facts coming from?

Here is a GM trailering document specifying trailer loads for the 1500's and fifth wheelers.
http://www.chevrolet.com/assets/pdf/...trailering.pdf


With all this said, most 5th wheelers are incredibly heavy, so the trucks limits has to be respected when towing a 5th wheeler or any trailer for that matter. They do make some light weight 5th wheeler trailers that can be pulled easy, but it's just something to always keep in mind.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:25 AM   #37
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Not sure about the Toyota or Nissan pictured, but anyone that thinks the late model Fords or Dodges pictured there have weak frames or rear axles has not looked under one at all. They are to say the least, beefy. The new F150 frames are probably considerably stronger than pre-Super Duty F250's, and the 9.75 rear axles under them are real close to the 10.5 axle used under earlier F250's. With the F150 frames being fully boxed, I would say they are considerably stiffer, if not stronger than the '99-'04 Super Duty frames. Hardware under the new Dodges looks heavier than the Fords.

Brakes under these new trucks are 4 wheel disc and huge, too. Weakest link is probably the transmission, and that is much less of a concern with the new 6 speeds from both Ford and Dodge.

Pulling the trailer full of 4 wheelers behind the 5th wheel on the first couple is over the top, but the 5th wheels pictured here, with the possible exception of the Nissan Titan crew cab, are probably well within the capability and GCWR of the trucks they are on.

Seeing any of these on the road wouldn't bother me near as much as loads I see pulled behind 1 ton dually's all the time. Equipment (tractors and even dozers) weighing close to 20k by themselves, on 6-7k trailers, hooked to trucks weighing 8k, that have a 20-24k GCWR. I know a guy that has a huge 3 axle stock trailer that grosses very near his 36k license fully loaded, and pulls it with a completely clapped out '98 Dodge 3500 (23k GCWR, iirc.) That thing is scary on the road.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:30 AM   #38
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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I have a tundra pretty much like the one in pic #3.

Previously I had a 2004 3/4 ton suburban 4x4 with tow package and 4.10 gears.

The Tundra will out tow, out brake and out handle the suburban all day long. There's simply no comparison between the two. Other than the interior room of the Suburban, I can't think of one thing that was better about it than the Toyota.

I had about 12-13K behind the Tundra last weekend for about 100 miles in some pretty big hills - and towed 7500 or so for another 175 miles. I knew it was back there, but the truck didn't struggle that much. Yeah, I know that's over the 11k towing rating.

My Suburban struggled towing anything over 8,000 lbs. The 4 wheel drive sucked compared to the toyota. No way I would have put the same kind of weight behind the Chevy. Plus, the Tundra was getting 12mpg with that 12K load after I got out of the steep stuff. I barely got 12mpg out of the Burb unloaded. It went down to 6-8 with my 7500lb trailer.

I've had that Truck nearly two years now, and I've worked it harder than any truck I've ever had - I've towed trailers with forklifts and tractors and heavy machine tools. I've drug stuff out of muddy fields. I've loaded 2,000 lbs in the bed and towed 5,000 lbs behind it - with no trailer brakes. I can't imagine doing the stuff I do with it with any of my past 3/4 ton trucks, let alone any of the 1/2 tons.

Think whatever you want, but you simply don't know what you are talking about until you've used one.

Hate to be you if you ever have an accident under those condition - even if it's not your fault.

One thing few people consider when exceeding tow capabilities - what happens afterwards,if an accident occurs.


Mind posting the model years on those vehicles???
A 15 year old Suburban with 350 weighs approx 3500 lbs and gets 15 mpg empty. A 2005 or later F250 weighs approx 7000 lbs, 5.4 liters, gets 15 MPG. Experience speaking.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:38 AM   #39
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Most of those looked like shortbed crewcab, the warning I posted was directly from the GM manual for that combination.
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:06 AM   #40
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Mind posting the model years on those vehicles???
A 15 year old Suburban with 350 weighs approx 3500 lbs and gets 15 mpg empty. A 2005 or later F250 weighs approx 7000 lbs, 5.4 liters, gets 15 MPG. Experience speaking.
Typographical error there? Shouldn't that be a "6" in front of that number instead of a "3"? Unless you only weighed one axle...

As pointed out above, the 2011-12 F150 with 5.0 and 3.5 EcoBoost (3.73) are rated at 15.3k and 17.1k GCWR, respectively. I believe Ford adopted the new SAE J-2807 tow & GCWR rating standard for the 2011 model year (not sure about GM, Ram, Toyota, Nissan, SAE J-2807 is not "mandated" until 2013MY.) So you can talk about inflated GCWR ratings all you want for 2010 and prior, but they should all be conforming to an industry standard now. By comparison, my current truck (2000 F250 4x4, 6.8l, auto, 4.30) is rated at 20k GCWR, my previous truck (1994 F250 4x4, 5.8l, auto, 3.55) was rated 13.5k GCWR.

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Old 05-11-2012, 10:45 AM   #41
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

A little over reacting on some of those. It has been hashed out a lot already here but many new turcks comfortably haul much bigger loads than just 10 years ago.

It is far easy and better for the truck to tow with a 5th wheel than tag style. Just because it hitches with a 5th wheel doesn't make it a bad thing. For the most part I would much prefer a 5th to tow with in most cases.

The arguement that they are hard on frames is wrong (so long as it does not exceed ratings). A 5th wheel hitch is a better way to tow and puts the weight in a far better position directly over the axle, than hanging way back behind the rear axle.
FWIW my 2004 crew cab F150 has a 9200# trailer rating so many 5th wheels are no problem.

You want wrong? I once saw an El Camino towing a 5th wheel travel trailer!!! It was not a big one but the tow rating on those things was very low. I wish I had a picture of it. Air bags do not make a towing rig!
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:49 AM   #42
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A little over reacting on some of those. It has been hashed out a lot already here but many new turcks comfortably haul much bigger loads than just 10 years ago.

It is far easy and better for the truck to tow with a 5th wheel than tag style. Just because it hitches with a 5th wheel doesn't make it a bad thing. For the most part I would much prefer a 5th to tow with in most cases.

The arguement that they are hard on frames is wrong (so long as it does not exceed ratings). A 5th wheel hitch is a better way to tow and puts the weight in a far better position directly over the axle, than hanging way back behind the rear axle.
FWIW my 2004 crew cab F150 has a 9200# trailer rating so many 5th wheels are no problem.

You want wrong? I once saw an El Camino towing a 5th wheel travel trailer!!! It was not a big one but the tow rating on those things was very low. I wish I had a picture of it. Air bags do not make a towing rig!

Apparently they sell hitches for them

http://www.autoanything.com/towing/C...15A2684A1.aspx


Apparently the web is filled with el camino owners looking to pull fifth wheels with their cars
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:53 AM   #43
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

I only scanned all the posts here. I have no issue with any of these tow set ups. The only thing that could remotely be commented on is the lack of extra wide side view mirrors.

We don't know all the facts about these peoples' towing intentions. Some could only be travelling 60 miles to the local campground. No one knows.

5th wheel trailer towing is apples to elephants, compared to bumper pulled trailers. That weight in the bed changes everything in a positive way.

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Old 05-11-2012, 12:03 PM   #44
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Typographical error there? Shouldn't that be a "6" in front of that number instead of a "3"? Unless you only weighed one axle...
Nope. I know whereof I speak. My old half ton Suburban , If I recall the exact number, weighed something like 3560 lbs. my '05 F250 weighed 7K, @15 MPG. Current F350 weighs 7600, with a GVWR of 11,000, and still gets 15 empty. Hauling as 14K trailer tho is another story.
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:17 PM   #45
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Funny things is this, people pulling travel trailers as well with a half ton.

All I gotta say, it isnt about the engine, tranny, etc, it is about handling and braking to AVOID and accident.

Any of those people get in an accident, kill someone, maim someone, their insurance company will say tough hop and they will be held liable, so their 10 grand they saved not buying a real truck now cost them millions.
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:29 PM   #46
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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I only scanned all the posts here. I have no issue with any of these tow set ups. The only thing that could remotely be commented on is the lack of extra wide side view mirrors.

We don't know all the facts about these peoples' towing intentions. Some could only be travelling 60 miles to the local campground. No one knows.

5th wheel trailer towing is apples to elephants, compared to bumper pulled trailers. That weight in the bed changes everything in a positive way.

KO
5 miles, 5000 miles, the risk to everyone else on the road with you doesn't change. Either get a tow vehicle that is big enough and properly equipped and learn how to drive the damn thing, or for crissake, rent a hotel room if you can't rough it for a weekend.
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:40 PM   #47
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

This one would be OK, if it didn't have the quad trailer on the back


This one is certainly OK- that's not a big trailer.


Back around 1987, i didn't know anything.
An RV salesman at the big LA RV show said I could tow this


with this:


(Images off the internet. 5th wheel was a full-sized '86 Komfort, 26'. P/U was a '85 GMC S-15 with the 2.8 V6.)

Well yeah, it did pull it - once, to San Diego from Orange County. Probably wouldn't have made it up the Cajon Pass though...

Switched to this (again, 'stock' photo, not mine.):
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:41 PM   #48
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Funny things is this, people pulling travel trailers as well with a half ton.

All I gotta say, it isnt about the engine, tranny, etc, it is about handling and braking to AVOID and accident.

Any of those people get in an accident, kill someone, maim someone, their insurance company will say tough hop and they will be held liable, so their 10 grand they saved not buying a real truck now cost them millions.
I'm curious, so no one should be allowed to pull anything behind a truck that is a half a ton or less? I sure as hell hope you never go to Europe or the rest of the world for that matter


And I'm curious, what do you consider a "REAL" truck if a half ton is not classified to your "standards" as a "REAL" truck? If you say 3/4 ton, then I bet some 1 ton dually guy is going to laugh at you... and some driver in an 18 wheeler is going to laugh at the dually guy... all while a guy driving a Terex MT 6300AC is going to laugh at everyone...

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Old 05-11-2012, 12:48 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Alchymist View Post
Hate to be you if you ever have an accident under those condition - even if it's not your fault.

One thing few people consider when exceeding tow capabilities - what happens afterwards,if an accident occurs.


Mind posting the model years on those vehicles???
A 15 year old Suburban with 350 weighs approx 3500 lbs and gets 15 mpg empty. A 2005 or later F250 weighs approx 7000 lbs, 5.4 liters, gets 15 MPG. Experience speaking.
I'd hate to be there too. I don't do things that I think are unsafe. In that particular situation I kept the speed way down.

If you tow much, you know some vehicles are just way better for it than others, and sometimes it surprises you which ones are better.

The other thing I will say is - as an automotive engineer for the past 30 years - the one thing you cannot do is tell how strong something is just by looking at it. Those folks who look under a truck and think it's strong or weak have no clue. With modern design tools, you can make something that is both lightweight and strong. In consumer products like light duty pickup trucks, the companies sometimes do things to make their products look strong when they don't need to. I laugh when I see the Ford commercials where they have an actor cutting up trucks and trying to show you what is stronger and what is not - it's all marketing.
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Old 05-11-2012, 12:56 PM   #50
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Nope. I know whereof I speak. My old half ton Suburban , If I recall the exact number, weighed something like 3560 lbs. my '05 F250 weighed 7K, @15 MPG. Current F350 weighs 7600, with a GVWR of 11,000, and still gets 15 empty. Hauling as 14K trailer tho is another story.
You have a typo, there is not a Sub on the road that weighs 3560. A Jeep Cj7 is 3750. A 2wd small block sub is closer to 5k. Ive got two subs, both 4x4 3/4 tons.

My newer sub, on the scale, is just OVER 6k lbs, it has every option that the truck was available with. Not sure what the older one weighs, never had it on a scale.

Ive haul grain with (pull gravity wagons), its been across the scale a couple times.

I used to travel ALLOT for work. Anyhow, I could not count how many mid size SUVs, Ive seen balled up either in the center or on the shoulder of 40,70,80, and 90 as I have shot back and forth across the country. The common denominator, is something too large for the tow vehicle, usually a camper. I think they have them so light, and have gotten so large, that the wind can play havoc with them on the interstate.

Your going west bound and all of a sudden a large gust comes from the south and broad sides the trailer, the tail starts wagging the dog, and you have an "explosion" of crap all over the interstate.

I actually saw this happen on 80 in Wyoming, but I was too far back to see it in detail, but I saw the cloud of "crap" exploding on the horizon. It was a durango pulling a full size camper trailer.

Those U-haul 6x12 enclosed dual axle trailers, seem to do a good job at wrecking light tow vehicles as well, cant count how many of those Ive seen upside down, with someones life littered all over the interstate.

I tow most "stuff" with my 3/4 Suburban 4x4 with a 6.0L gasser and quadrasteer. If its heavy, Ive a diesel F450 (for goose neck trailers), that has a GVW of 16,500.

I included a pic, of a guy that showed up at an auction and parked next to me, his equipment trailer is touching the ground, but as you can see, there is nothing on it. I think the pintle hook is a clue that it was meant to be pulled by something heavier than a 1500...
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:12 PM   #51
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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You have a typo, there is not a Sub on the road that weighs 3560. A Jeep Cj7 is 3750. A 2wd small block sub is closer to 5k. Ive got two subs, both 4x4 3/4 tons.

My newer sub, on the scale, is just OVER 6k lbs, it has every option that the truck was available with. Not sure what the older one weighs, never had it on a scale.
Sounds right. So a 1/2 ton Suburban might be more like 5.5k, probably not 6.5k empty. Alchymist's numbers for the F250 are right on, though. My 2000 F250 4x4, LBSC, 6.8l scales 6710, with a full tank of gas, no load (only a carry around box and tote with hitch drawbars, tow strap, etc.) and my 230lb butt in the drivers seat. That is on a certified truck scale at the local MFA. 2005-up SD's are a bit heavier, model-for-model.
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Old 05-11-2012, 01:41 PM   #52
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I included a pic, of a guy that showed up at an auction and parked next to me, his equipment trailer is touching the ground, but as you can see, there is nothing on it. I think the pintle hook is a clue that it was meant to be pulled by something heavier than a 1500...
What an idiot, he even has an adjustable hitch. Too lazy to change it I guess. I hope he did not plan on fixing that by moving weight to the back of the trailer
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Old 05-11-2012, 02:13 PM   #53
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With my 5th wheel fully load for a two week trip and all of us in the truck I'm 2,100 lbs under my GVWR. We spent 4 months looking for a trailer that would be under what our truck is rated for. It's light, small and good for now.

That said, I don't like to pull in the mountians with our current setup and I am starting to look for a 3/4 or 1 ton truck... so I can get a bigger trailer. We did a two week trip in southern BC and my truck used some oil (something it doesn't do). Poor girl has almost 300,000km on it...

And I will not pull a 5th wheel and a trailer at the same time with my current truck, and I won't pull bumper pull RVs anymore after switching to the 5th wheel.

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Old 05-11-2012, 02:16 PM   #54
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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You have a typo, there is not a Sub on the road that weighs 3560. A Jeep Cj7 is 3750. A 2wd small block sub is closer to 5k. Ive got two subs, both 4x4 3/4 tons.
So you're saying the scales were wrong? Possible, I guess. It was a hell of a lot lighter than my '05 F250. The bumper pull TT we had at the time put it all over the road, hence the move to the F250.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:51 PM   #55
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I'm curious, so no one should be allowed to pull anything behind a truck that is a half a ton or less? I sure as hell hope you never go to Europe or the rest of the world for that matter


And I'm curious, what do you consider a "REAL" truck if a half ton is not classified to your "standards" as a "REAL" truck? If you say 3/4 ton, then I bet some 1 ton dually guy is going to laugh at you... and some driver in an 18 wheeler is going to laugh at the dually guy... all while a guy driving a Terex MT 6300AC is going to laugh at everyone...
Ockie,

Did I say no one should be allowed to tow with a half ton? Nope
My post is reflective of the pictures in the post since that is what we are talking about

The POINT of my post is over loading a half ton truck isnt about if the motor can handle it, its about stopping an avoiding an accident, then if a person is in a over loaded half ton truck, more than likely their insurance company will not accept the claim. At that point, why did they over load a half ton truck? I see this type of crap all the time, a 32 ft travel trailer, the whole family loaded with everything BUT the kitchen sink, they have the anti-sway on the hitch and its a 1/2 ton truck with a 4 ft bed cruising down the road. You tell me,,,,,is that safe?

you must have little truck syndrome

I could really care less what people do in the rest of the world, or for that matter here, unless it directly affects me, and when I see them on the road, I get a long ways away from them.

What I consider a real truck depends on what a person is using it for and it boils down to responsibility

I own a one ton diesel crew cab long box super duty that weighs on the scale 8800 lbs

Quick story

We were heading back from Wyoming in a 2008 1/2 silverado crew cab 4 ft bed, (friends truck) 3 sleds on a trailer, 1 in the bed of teh truck, 4 guys, gear, etc, approximate weight of everything being hauled was 2400 lbs for sleds, 800 for trailer, 500 for gear, and 200 per guy, 4500 lbs estimated... We were out by riverton, WY, about 10 deer run into the road, were were doing about 70 mph, he hit teh brakes, pedal on the floor, and it had very little effect on slowing us down, fortunatly we missed the deer but we went by the last deer on the opposite lane of traffic at 50-60 mph with the brakes on.
Legally, he was within spec for payload and weight, the trailer did not have brakes and legally didnt need to, and we had zero ability to stop.
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Old 05-11-2012, 03:52 PM   #56
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We have a customer that is on her 3rd engine (4.6) in a Dodge 1500. She has a fifth wheel and pulls her RV in the hills of Tennesee. She doesn't listen very well, but it is good for business.
thats about the worst truck to tow anything with......
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:27 PM   #57
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thats about the worst truck to tow anything with......
I'd say the 4.6L F-150 should be on that list too. Gutless engine.

Oh, add the 318 Dakota to that list too. Just because it has a V8, does not mean you can use it like a 1/2 ton!
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Old 05-11-2012, 05:42 PM   #58
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I don't see anything wrong provided that the weight ratings are met for the truck's specific configurations. I think in some of those pictures the weight might exceed the trucks capacities.



Really? What facts do you have to back this up with? Modern 1/2 tonners can pull incredible capacity... in fact, some of the new 1/2 ton trucks can out-pull older 3/4 ton trucks. The newer trucks also have higher tongue ratings too than their much older predecessors.






One again, where are your facts?



What facts? The fact that I work I cars and trucks all day long and see how they are put together. I would be scared for my life to pull a 5th wheel on a 1/2 ton, let alone put my family's life in danger.

Yes, some of the ratings "say" they can pull the weight. But have you seen how many 1/2 ton auto transmissions I've seen come apart by doing so? Or how flimsy 1/2 ton axles and springs are? Hell, Ford can't even get out of their own way unloaded, Dodges can't keep ball joints in them unloaded, and GM can't keep trans in them unloaded.

About the warranty. I know the shop foreman, service manager, and regional warranty rep personally, and I know for a FACT that they don't cover damage done when pulling a 5th wheel.

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Old 05-11-2012, 07:15 PM   #59
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If you did any sort of physics classes when you were back in school, you might remember something called mechanical advantage. In its most basic form, mechanical advantage is the ratio of force-in to force-out in a mechanical system.

Mechanical Advantage = Effort Torque/Load Torque

For example a 20kg weight 1 meter from a pivot can lift a 40kg weight 0.5m from the pivot on the other side. The effort torque and load torque calculations are to do with force in Newtons and distance from pivot point. Hence torque is measured in Newton-meters, or Nm. A Newton is the amount of force required to accelerate a mass of one kilogram by one meter per second˛. On Earth, where acceleration due to gravity is 9.8m/s˛, the force exerted upon a mass of 1kg is 9.8N (usually rounded up to 10N). 1 Newton-meter is equivalent to 0.737 foot-pounds.

The diagram below shows a simple lever system on a pivot. The load torque is 200Nm, and the effort torque is also 200Nm. Mechanical advantage = effort / load, which in this case is 200 / 200, which is 1. ie. the system is balanced.



Now imagine increasing the weight on the effort side to 30kg instead of 20kg, but leaving everything else the same. The load torque is still 200Nm, but the effort torque is now 300Nm. Mechanical advantage = effort / load, which is 300 / 200, which is 1.5. Any mechanical advantage value larger than 1.0 means that the effort has the advantage. In this case, a 30kg weight which is lighter than the 40kg load, is able to lift it off the ground.

I'm not saying just because you can that you should, or that it's even safe, but don't go bashing a vehicle without appreciating the physics behind it.

Discount the dumb asses with the double trailer setups, discount the Dodge with the weight distribution of the trailer skewed (notice how much it's cocked in the front), and discount the guys trying to tow a house-sized boat or camper with a 1/2 ton, and the and a lot of the arguments here against 1/2 ton trucks start to fall apart.

I'm not saying all of them do, but there is no "one size fits all" answer here.

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Old 05-11-2012, 07:24 PM   #60
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

As stated before, most cases it isn't so much of a problem carrying and pulling the weight, it's stopping once you get up to speed. (Or rather not stopping ).
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:29 PM   #61
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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If you did any sort of physics classes when you were back in school, you might remember something called mechanical advantage. In its most basic form, mechanical advantage is the ratio of force-in to force-out in a mechanical system.

Mechanical Advantage = Effort Torque/Load Torque

For example a 20kg weight 1 meter from a pivot can lift a 40kg weight 0.5m from the pivot on the other side. The effort torque and load torque calculations are to do with force in Newtons and distance from pivot point. Hence torque is measured in Newton-meters, or Nm. A Newton is the amount of force required to accelerate a mass of one kilogram by one meter per second˛. On Earth, where acceleration due to gravity is 9.8m/s˛, the force exerted upon a mass of 1kg is 9.8N (usually rounded up to 10N). 1 Newton-meter is equivalent to 0.737 foot-pounds.

The diagram below shows a simple lever system on a pivot. The load torque is 200Nm, and the effort torque is also 200Nm. Mechanical advantage = effort / load, which in this case is 200 / 200, which is 1. ie. the system is balanced.



Now imagine increasing the weight on the effort side to 30kg instead of 20kg, but leaving everything else the same. The load torque is still 200Nm, but the effort torque is now 300Nm. Mechanical advantage = effort / load, which is 300 / 200, which is 1.5. Any mechanical advantage value larger than 1.0 means that the effort has the advantage. In this case, a 30kg weight which is lighter than the 40kg load, is able to lift it off the ground.

I'm not saying just because you can that you should, or that it's even safe, but don't go bashing a vehicle without appreciating the physics behind it.

Discount the dumb asses with the double trailer setups, discount the Dodge with the weight distribution of the trailer skewed (notice how much it's cocked in the front), and discount the guys trying to tow a house-sized boat or camper with a 1/2 ton, and the and a lot of the arguments here against 1/2 ton trucks start to fall apart.

I'm not saying all of them do, but there is no "one size fits all" answer here
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:30 PM   #62
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Then again, stupidity sometimes becomes a factor:
http://wn.com/RV_crash
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Old 05-11-2012, 07:32 PM   #63
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

This Thread has derailed.... So im gonna bring my Tow vehicle out to Help the sitsuation.



Physics? WTF.. Just use common sense and keep your Vehicle within Manufacturer Specs, As I and Others have pointed out there are PLENTY of 5th wheel vehicles that can be safely pulled with a 1/2 ton and still be well below 70% of the Rated GCRW. Obviously.. your gonna have people fly up to stop signs with No regard for the Weight behind them or the People they need to share the road with, You dont need to be pulling a trailer to see this type of behavior. Now.. Will a 1/2 ton pull Every 5th wheel out there? No.. But it Can, And It does and Not everyone is piling them up. Id venture to say there are just as many 3/4-Ton guys who think they are invincible on the Highway and can Stop and go on a Dime. It takes all types.. and Everyone is Guilty.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:28 PM   #64
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

But... but... but... the camper dealer said it would be fine. They even sold me $1200 worth of hitch and installed it on my 2wd automatic transmission ford ranger....
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:35 PM   #65
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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As stated before, most cases it isn't so much of a problem carrying and pulling the weight, it's stopping once you get up to speed. (Or rather not stopping ).
I Cant Recall seeing many 5th wheel Trailers that arent equipped with Trailer Brakes..

Does that mean that the Tow Vehicle has a Controller? NO...

Does that mean that the Brakes are in Good working order NO...

Is there much difference between a 3/4 ton and a 1/2 ton in regards to braking power? IMO Not Much, Most of todays Trucks are packing 4 wheel Disc Brakes and Huge Rotors.

We have a saying in the RR industry when shit goes bad..

"High Speed and Poor Judgement"
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:44 PM   #66
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

You must not have seen the brakes on newer GM HDs vs the 1/2 tons. HDs have bread loaves for calipers and 14" rotors.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:46 PM   #67
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

a 10k 5th wheel is easier on a truck than a 5k standard trailer,
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:48 PM   #68
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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You must not have seen the brakes on newer GM HDs vs the 1/2 tons. HDs have bread loaves for calipers and 14" rotors.
I cant say that i have.. I Mainly work on Older Trucks and i can tell you that my 2005 F150's brakes where leaps and bounds better than the 87 3/4 ton i Currently Own.

Looks Like 2012 F150 carry 13.8" Rotors themselves.
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Old 05-11-2012, 08:58 PM   #69
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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You must not have seen the brakes on newer GM HDs vs the 1/2 tons. HDs have bread loaves for calipers and 14" rotors.
F150s are massive too. 14" fronts with dual piston calipers, 13" rears, and those are the standard brakes. It doesn't take much pressure on the pedal to stop my truck unloaded, anything more than light pressure and you think you're about to go through the windshield.

I'm not going to test it, but I'm of the opinion that in today's society, if the manufacturer of the truck says as I have it equipped is rated to tow and/or haul so much weight, than it should be able to do it. As sue happy as people are today, does anyone honestly think they're going to publish a number that they know is unsafe?
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:05 PM   #70
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it's not just the drive train, brakes, and springs a person should consider - it's the tires too - I doubt any of the half tons towing 5th wheels have E rated tires.
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:08 PM   #71
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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I cant say that i have.. I Mainly work on Older Trucks and i can tell you that my 2005 F150's brakes where leaps and bounds better than the 87 3/4 ton i Currently Own.

Looks Like 2012 F150 carry 13.8" Rotors themselves.
Yes they are, but the 3/4 tons have evolved as well.
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:12 PM   #72
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it's not just the drive train, brakes, and springs a person should consider - it's the tires too - I doubt any of the half tons towing 5th wheels have E rated tires.
I know on my 2005 F150 4x4 came with P rated tires when New... I was browsing the Car lot when i was looking for a new truck and was pleasantly suprised that alot of the New F150's had Lt Tires, I didnt get down to read the Load index though.
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:13 PM   #73
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Yes they are, but the 3/4 tons have evolved as well.
Agreed....
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:18 PM   #74
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

GM had problems with the rear disc brakes in the 1999 to 2007 full size trucks,ate them up and went back to drum brakes in the rear in 2008.Never had problems since going back to drums in the back in 2008.The Ford 4.6s,cam seizes in the passenger side head due to wrong grade oil used and this is a very common problem.3/4 and 1 ton trucks are better off used for hauling 5th wheels.My father tried with a 1989 Dodge W150 4x4 he bought brand new with a 318,overheated.
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:20 PM   #75
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My brother took several trips of 1500 miles round trip pulling a bass boat with a 91 accord...
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:21 PM   #76
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with a 150 or other half ton just because it does pull does not mean it is safe.
Biggest issue is in braking. Like a fool I pulled a 22' Boat behind my 1996 5.0L Ranger just because I could. That is until I had to brake. Might as well forget that even though it was fun passing everyone up on the upside of hill it was downright dangerous because of braking.

At boat ramp with the ramp a bit wet I turned around and started to back towards water.... Good thing it was clear as the brakes did nothing!

Another time I had a super nice F150 with a hotter engine that pulled fine with only 2 quads on back and a light trailer. All was well and good until I tried to stop on wet roads. That scared me enough to buy a real truck even for towing under 2000lbs.

On wet roads the average half ton pickup is not safe with over 5000lbs and a lot of times less than that I do not care which brand other than the new 2011-12 Fords. A older F150 or half ton with over 3000lbs is not safe in the braking department.

Even with my 7.3L powered F250 towing upwards of 10000lbs did not feel safe and it was rated for a bunch more than that, actually empty @ 5000lbs did not feel safe
Sounds to me you don't know what you're doing--or you should not be driving a truck. Really, you can't tow 2000-lbs with an F150? An empty F250 feels unsafe? Maybe the nut behind the wheel is loose??? There are some towing skills and common sense required. I'm not ragging on you, but you admit you won't tow 2K with a 1/2 ton. If you're not comfortable, you probably shouldn't. But, that doesn't mean no one can do it safely.

I regularly pull a 3500-lb single axle loaded up with my '06 Nissan Frontier and that is with no brakes. I pull my Kubota B21 on a tandem axle with box blade and other implements that is probably pushing my 6300-lb rating. I pulled the same setup through the mountains of WV through the New River Gorge pass with no issues.

Back to the orginal post, some of the trailers are probably too much for the trucks. But, I'm an engineer. If they rate it at 9500-lbs, I'm going to go and pull 9,500 lbs. That is what it's rated for--otherwise, they wouldn't have. As you approach that limit, you need to be more careful. You can't blast around at 80 mph and do rapid lane changes. But, with a little common sense, you shouldn't have any trouble pulling the rated capacity of a truck.
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Old 05-11-2012, 09:46 PM   #77
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

My point was that those particular rigs looked overmatched, GM for a fact, other mfgs I surmise, don't recommend putting 5th wheel on a shortbed pickup, regardless of whether someone makes an adaptor or not. Not a fan of 1/2tons hauling heavy loads in general, and large toyboxes are especially bad because of the windage, you can really get a tail wagging the dog condition with some of these rigs. Couple this with an inexperienced driver and the potential for easily overloading these things, sounds like a recipe for disaster. The mfgs give a weight limit, not a size limit, a ton of feathers takes up a lot more space than a ton of lead, the owner has to decide whether a given rig is safe, he can't abrogate the responsibility for safety to a spec sheet.
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:18 PM   #78
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Yep: An International MXT or CXT pick-up -- both of these are real brutes but civilized.
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:32 PM   #79
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Since no one bothered to look it up... The weight ratings of these campers are less than you would expect.
P.S. I am not going to comment on the double towing angle of this discussion.

1st one The company Thor appears to out of business so I can't comment.
2nd one weighs in from 7k to 8k With a carry cap of 2.5k http://www.keystone-xlite.com/index.php?page=specs


3rd one weighs in from 7k to 8k with a cargo capacity of 4k http://www.palominorv.com/ProductInf...ions&RVType=FW

4th Same as the second one

5th one isn't really a problem as it is an older trailer that if iirc weighs about 4k
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:41 PM   #80
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I bought a car trailer in 2005. At the time I had a Chevy 1500HD crewcab 4x4 with a 6.0 and 3:73s. I bought the trailer new down in PA and when I brought it home empty the truck seemed to tow it with no problem. The first time that I tried to tow a full size car I realized I made a mistake. The truck was a dog. It could barely pull out into traffic. I ordered an 05 2500 crewcab with the 6.0 and 4:10s. That truck was probably the best truck that Ive ever owned. It could tow the trailer with no hesitation at all.
Fast forward to last August. The 2500s stiff ride was raising hell with my neck and back issues. I couldnt drive it for more than an hour before my hands would burn and my head would ache. I went to the local GMC dealer. The manager (who used to own the Chevy dealer that I bought all of my previous trucks from) talked me into buying a 1500 crewcab with the 5.3 instead of the 6.2 with the max tow package. He claimed the newer 6 speed automatic hooked up to the 5.3 would out tow the 2500 by a few hundred pounds. He lied. The new truck sucks. I just towed my friends VW bug on my trailer and it felt like I was towing a 747. I was pissed. I called the dealer and told them I wanted them to find a truck with the larger motor and 3:73s. They told me I would lose 10K in the trade. After I calmed down I figured it wouldnt be the smart thing for me to do so Im keeping it for a few years.
I can honestly say I wouldnt use it to tow anything heavier than 3 or 4K lbs.
I see guys towing things that I wouldnt consider safe all the time. I guess I just want to live on the safe side.
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Old 05-11-2012, 10:59 PM   #81
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Ahhhh shit, now I have to go and find me a "real" truck to tow my riding lawn mower with.


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Old 05-11-2012, 11:02 PM   #82
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Since no one bothered to look it up... The weight ratings of these campers are less than you would expect.
Post #23

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It appears that there are a few Keystone trailers in the OP Pics and they are somewhat known for producing light weight Campers with the majority of there stuff below 7K. Im not trying to argue that a 1/2 Ton pickup is the best option but im Not quick to jump on the "Look at these Idiots" Bandwagon.
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:37 PM   #83
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I won't point any fingers but here we are in a garage forum and the amount of bad info is appalling. Had to bite my tongue and stop reading.

Not sure if it's already been mentioned, but one of the main advantages of the 3/4 ton up pickups is the full floating axles. ie spindles and hubs. It's one thing to have your trans/engine go up in sparks and smoke and another to have your rear wheel pass you on the decent from the Eisenhower tunnel.
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:40 PM   #84
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I won't point any fingers but here we are in a garage forum and the amount of bad info is appalling. Had to bite my tongue and stop reading.
Same here.

This thread is horrific.


And you are correct about the FF axles.
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Old 05-11-2012, 11:56 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by 472scout View Post
I won't point any fingers but here we are in a garage forum and the amount of bad info is appalling. Had to bite my tongue and stop reading.

Not sure if it's already been mentioned, but one of the main advantages of the 3/4 ton up pickups is the full floating axles. ie spindles and hubs. It's one thing to have your trans/engine go up in sparks and smoke and another to have your rear wheel pass you on the decent from the Eisenhower tunnel.
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Originally Posted by IDASHO View Post
Same here.

This thread is horrific.


And you are correct about the FF axles.
I think the Main Problem with this thread is that there isnt ANY INFO, There is alot of Assumptions being made based on Freaking Pictures.. No Pin Weight figures, NO Trailer Weight, NO Nothing. Now we have Rear Wheels passing the Front in the Eisenhower tunnel. BlaH.... I dont believe for 1 second that if a Auto Maker claims you can tow XXXXX amount of Weight that Spindles are gonna start snapping, Not every 5th wheel trailer weighs 14k, Or is Commuting through the Mountains, Not every 3/4 Truck is Maintained to the Highest standards.

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Old 05-11-2012, 11:57 PM   #86
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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Originally Posted by 472scout View Post
I won't point any fingers but here we are in a garage forum and the amount of bad info is appalling. Had to bite my tongue and stop reading.

Not sure if it's already been mentioned, but one of the main advantages of the 3/4 ton up pickups is the full floating axles. ie spindles and hubs. It's one thing to have your trans/engine go up in sparks and smoke and another to have your rear wheel pass you on the decent from the Eisenhower tunnel.
Not all 3/4 tons have Full Floating axles.

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Old 05-12-2012, 12:01 AM   #87
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Not all 3/4 tons have floating axles.
Rear axles, sure they do.

If they do not have Full-float, then they have semi-float.

Still a floating axle.

I dont know of ANY modern 3/4 ton truck that doesnt use semi or full-float rear axles.
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:02 AM   #88
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I dont believe for 1 second that if a Auto Maker claims you can tow XXXXX amount of Weight that Spindles are gonna start snapping, Not every 5th wheel trailer weighs 14k, Or is Commuting through the Mountains, Not every 3/4 Truck is Maintained to the Highest standards.

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Dont worry, with the way this thread has gone, every truck on the road will go up in a big ball of flames without even being loaded
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:05 AM   #89
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Dont worry, with the way this thread has gone, every truck on the road will go up in a big ball of flames without even being loaded

Im Scared to Death.. Im getting ready to get called for Work. I used to worry about Drunks/Sleepy Drivers, Now i have to dodge Tires and Campers.


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Old 05-12-2012, 12:09 AM   #90
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

I believe a lot of folks here are talking from no real understanding of engineering.

A good tow vehicle has nothing to do with the weight of the vehicle towing. Go out to the interstate and watch 15,000 lb Freightliners towing 65,000 lb boxcars down the road all day long.

It has very little to do with horsepower or torque or transmissions. I would venture to say the lowest horsepower 1/2 ton truck available in 2012 has a better transmission and more horsepower than most semis that were towing 50,000 lbs did in 1950 - when quite a few trucks ran on old Chevy sixes or 110 hp flathead V8's.

I will tell you what makes a good tow vehicle - it isn't weight and it isn't power. It's good engineering and even more importantly, good setup. The best tow vehicle in the world is going to suck if you have the trailer tail heavy, and you drive like a madman.

If you load it right, and you have enough brakes and suspension to control it, then you can generally tow it.

I'm much more worried about the two dozen clapped out F250's with 28 foot enclosed trailers full of non-tied down Zero-turn mowers being driven like banshees through my neighborhood everyday.
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:12 AM   #91
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While I agree with you entire post...

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I believe a lot of folks here are talking from no real understanding of engineering.
Id change this to "a lot of folks here are talking from no real experience of towing"
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:16 AM   #92
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I'm fixing to go tow around 8000 tons here in about 2 hours.
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:21 AM   #93
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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I dont know of ANY modern 3/4 ton truck that doesnt use semi or full-float rear axles.
Seriously when was the last time you saw an axle break from towing?

And there is no way in hell my 1984 Chevy 3/4 ton is a better choice for towing than a most modern 1/2 tons.
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:24 AM   #94
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I'm fixing to go tow around 8000 tons here in about 2 hours.
You shouldn't be allowed to use a locomotive to tow with... the brakes are horrible on those.
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:30 AM   #95
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Seriously when was the last time you saw an axle break from towing?
Who said anything about breaking axles?

Its obvious you really dont have a handle on this. There is MUCH more to a full float axle than the axle shafts themselves.

The design allows for MUCH larger bearings, more of them, and a constant fluid bath. This keeps bearing and fluid temps down, virtually eliminating the chance of cooking a bearing. The design also removes ALL payload weight from the shafts themselves. The bearings support the weight.

You are NOT going to break an axle shaft when towing. Dropping the clutch getting unstuck, or yanking on a stubborn tree stump, MAYBE, but not towing. Bearings give up LONG before axle shafts.


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And there is no way in hell my 1984 Chevy 3/4 ton is a better choice for towing than a most modern 1/2 tons.
Well, it is a Chevy.

Im talking about trucks. You know, FORDS
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:40 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by 472scout View Post
I won't point any fingers but here we are in a garage forum and the amount of bad info is appalling. Had to bite my tongue and stop reading.

Not sure if it's already been mentioned, but one of the main advantages of the 3/4 ton up pickups is the full floating axles. ie spindles and hubs. It's one thing to have your trans/engine go up in sparks and smoke and another to have your rear wheel pass you on the decent from the Eisenhower tunnel.
Hey IDASHO
This is the post I have been referring to. And I do have a grasp on how floating axles work.
And to your Ford is better than Chevy jab ... Dude grow up.
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:43 AM   #97
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You shouldn't be allowed to use a locomotive to tow with... the brakes are horrible on those.
Well.. I have good trailer brakes along with zero pin weight, But a load of drawbar pull. Oh... Let's not forget Each car has a different tonnage and there is Also slack between each car which varies from 2' to 4'.
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Old 05-12-2012, 12:46 AM   #98
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Hey IDASHO
This is the post I have been referring to.
That post has NOTHING to do with axle breakage
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Old 05-12-2012, 01:14 AM   #99
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Sounds to me you don't know what you're doing--or you should not be driving a truck. Really, you can't tow 2000-lbs with an F150? An empty F250 feels unsafe? Maybe the nut behind the wheel is loose??? There are some towing skills and common sense required. I'm not ragging on you, but you admit you won't tow 2K with a 1/2 ton. If you're not comfortable, you probably shouldn't. But, that doesn't mean no one can do it safely.

I dont think its me that has no clue. I did not say what the truck was did I? A late 70's F150 have you ever driven one in the wet towing a trailer? Did I say the F250 Empty was not safe? No, I was saying the F250 with a 5000lb empty trailer did not feel safe. I have probably driven more miles towing a trailer than you have driven. When I say safe I mean SAFE. A large car hauler is what it was with extra height and max width and of course a bumper pull which I am not a big fan of after owning a Gooseneck. When is the last time you drove a truck towing a large car hauler trailer? Ever have to do a panic stop in one? Thats when I say did not feel safe. Just drivin down the road it was fine but knowing if you had to slam on brakes it was not going to be pretty.

I regularly pull a 3500-lb single axle loaded up with my '06 Nissan Frontier and that is with no brakes. I pull my Kubota B21 on a tandem axle with box blade and other implements that is probably pushing my 6300-lb rating. I pulled the same setup through the mountains of WV through the New River Gorge pass with no issues.

Back to the orginal post, some of the trailers are probably too much for the trucks. But, I'm an engineer. If they rate it at 9500-lbs, I'm going to go and pull 9,500 lbs. That is what it's rated for--otherwise, they wouldn't have. As you approach that limit, you need to be more careful. You can't blast around at 80 mph and do rapid lane changes. But, with a little common sense, you shouldn't have any trouble pulling the rated capacity of a truck.
You sound like one not so smart engineer to be towing 3500lb trailer with no brakes. And a 6300lb load no brakes? Its not about pulling its about being able to stop if the need arises. Sounds to me like illegal tows to boot.
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Old 05-12-2012, 01:20 AM   #100
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I think the Main Problem with this thread is that there isnt ANY INFO, There is alot of Assumptions being made based on Freaking Pictures.. No Pin Weight figures, NO Trailer Weight, NO Nothing. Now we have Rear Wheels passing the Front in the Eisenhower tunnel. BlaH.... I dont believe for 1 second that if a Auto Maker claims you can tow XXXXX amount of Weight that Spindles are gonna start snapping, Not every 5th wheel trailer weighs 14k, Or is Commuting through the Mountains, Not every 3/4 Truck is Maintained to the Highest standards.

Welcome to the Assumption Party!!
I wasn't talking about vehicles being used within their factory ratings, but I can see why you thought that. .

Not sure however what the hell you're talking about when you say "spindles" snapping? 3/4 ton truck spindles don't break unless you drive off a cliff, crash into a bridge, etc. Hopefully you don't do a lot of that?

SF axleshafts on the other hand do break. SF axleshafts (non c-clip) also exit the housing, taking the wheel with them, when bearings go bad. Anyway, the point is that 3/4 ton trucks by design are 10x safer than 1/2 ton trucks due to the FF axle hubs. Just another (extremely important) reason not to push the envelope with a 1/2 ton truck. Of course, you already knew that.
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Old 05-12-2012, 01:27 AM   #101
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Seriously when was the last time you saw an axle break from towing?

And there is no way in hell my 1984 Chevy 3/4 ton is a better choice for towing than a most modern 1/2 tons.
If you have never seen/heard of an axleshaft breaking from towing/being overloaded then I think maybe you need to get out into the real world a little more. Talk to a differential specialty shop. They'll set you straight.

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Old 05-12-2012, 02:07 AM   #102
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Not sure however what the hell you're talking about when you say "spindles" snapping? 3/4 ton truck spindles don't break unless you drive off a cliff, crash into a bridge, etc. Hopefully you don't do a lot of that?
Snapping spindles just sounded cooler at the time... Good News though, I made it to work safely without incident.
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Old 05-12-2012, 06:02 AM   #103
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I know on my 2005 F150 4x4 came with P rated tires when New... I was browsing the Car lot when i was looking for a new truck and was pleasantly suprised that alot of the New F150's had Lt Tires, I didnt get down to read the Load index though.
Half tons are D rated if they are LT tires, 3/4 tons are E rated - a big part of the rating is the load index of the tire. They don't put E's on 1/2 tons from the factory because it will ride a bit harsher.

A friend at work traded his 2007 Diesel F250 he used for his 5th wheel because he had nothing but problems with it and got a new 2010 Tundra - towed the 5th wheel twice with it. The F250 problems weren't towing weight related but engine electronics, rattles, accessories etc. He was not happy with getting well under 10mpg with the Tundra but there was enough power for the load (not as good as the Diesel though). At 43,000 miles he had the rearend go out (bearings) and he decided to sell the 5th wheel and trade the Tundra in on a new 1/2 ton Chevy. There's no way to tell for sure that the 5th wheel killed the rear end, but the Tundra is a truck with a decent reliability rating so I can only guess that is what did it in.

I use a 2004 GMC 2500HD Duramax to pull my 4000lb fish and ski boat. No drive train issues at 89,000 miles now but it's a light load, it's easy to forget the boat is back there. I chose the diesel for the Alison transmission and fuel economy and have been very happy with it.

A friend in TX has a 2000 F250 with a diesel, over 300K on it now and he tows his 5th wheel camper around all over the place, no drive transmission or rear end problems, a few minor engine problems which are typical for the mileage he has on it, but still the original engine never overhauled.

If a person wants to tow heavy, trying to do it on a 1/2 ton truck is a mistake IMHO based on data from my acquaintances and personal experience. They may pull it ok but it's just not designed to tow heavy regardless of the weight ratings and last as long as a 3/4 ton. If a person is going to do it, they should at least be running E rated tires for safety. A tire failure towing heavy could very easily result in a catastrophe.

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Old 05-12-2012, 06:09 AM   #104
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I think the Main Problem with this thread is that there isnt ANY INFO, There is alot of Assumptions being made based on Freaking Pictures.. No Pin Weight figures, NO Trailer Weight, NO Nothing. Now we have Rear Wheels passing the Front in the Eisenhower tunnel. BlaH.... I dont believe for 1 second that if a Auto Maker claims you can tow XXXXX amount of Weight that Spindles are gonna start snapping, Not every 5th wheel trailer weighs 14k, Or is Commuting through the Mountains, Not every 3/4 Truck is Maintained to the Highest standards.

Welcome to the Assumption Party!!
I honestly made this thread after seeing some morons towing a 30ft+ trailer with a half ton Dodge. I only though it would get a half dozen replies. But all the guys with half tons got their panties in a wad and now it's at 6 pages.
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Old 05-12-2012, 06:40 AM   #105
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I honestly made this thread after seeing some morons towing a 30ft+ trailer with a half ton Dodge. I only though it would get a half dozen replies. But all the guys with half tons got their panties in a wad and now it's at 6 pages.
Or...

All the 3/4 and up crowd is trying to justify there "Big" trucks hauling around 5k. I guess it just depends on how you look at it, not everyone can justify the cost of ownership of a 3/4 ton truck to haul something that a 1/2 ton will handle based off manufacturers specs a few times a year. I've been on both sides I can the positives and negatives, this has been a fairly good discussion IMO. Obviously you have your opinions based off the thread, not everyone has to agree and I For one don't without some specifications.
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Old 05-12-2012, 06:54 AM   #106
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I dont think its me that has no clue. I did not say what the truck was did I? A late 70's F150 have you ever driven one in the wet towing a trailer? Did I say the F250 Empty was not safe? No, I was saying the F250 with a 5000lb empty trailer did not feel safe. I have probably driven more miles towing a trailer than you have driven. When I say safe I mean SAFE. A large car hauler is what it was with extra height and max width and of course a bumper pull which I am not a big fan of after owning a Gooseneck. When is the last time you drove a truck towing a large car hauler trailer? Ever have to do a panic stop in one? Thats when I say did not feel safe. Just drivin down the road it was fine but knowing if you had to slam on brakes it was not going to be pretty.

You sound like one not so smart engineer to be towing 3500lb trailer with no brakes. And a 6300lb load no brakes? Its not about pulling its about being able to stop if the need arises. Sounds to me like illegal tows to boot.
Well, I haven't towed with a late-70s F150. I cut my teeth towing with an early 80's Mazda B2000 that had a 5-speed and a 70 HP 4-cylinder engine. Probably towed way more than I should have, but I was younger then. We can debate who has towed the most miles, but it wouldn't get us anywhere. You've probably got more miles than me, but I'm no stranger to towing trailers.

Most (dare I say all?) single axle trailers less than 3500-lbs don't have brakes. In Virginia, the cutoff limit for trailers equipped with not brakes is...you guessed it, 3500-lbs. You would have to go an special order a single axle trailer with brakes if you wanted them--at least in my neck of the woods. I didn't say I tow 6300-lbs with no brakes; that would be stupid. My dual axle car hauler is brake equipped (brakes on both axles) and controlled with a nice Prodigy controller. No problems stopping! When I'm towing, especially with a heavy load, I leave a lot more distance following distance, drive a little slower and generally be more careful. I've never had to make a panic stop with a loaded trailer--I anticipate. My truck has ABS and if desired, my brake controller can lock all 4-wheels. I can stop just fine.

I guess I'm the guy towing heavy loads with a mid-size truck and everyone says, what is that guy doing towing a tractor with that thing--he needs a bigger truck. You're the guy with the 5X8 utility trailer and the F250 and everyone says "Does that guy really need a truck that big to tow that little thing with?" : ) Oh well, we probably won't see eye to eye on this.

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Old 05-12-2012, 07:47 AM   #107
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

re: rear end bearing going out on tow vehicles - are these guys using good heavy weight diff fluid or they still using light weight stuff?
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:26 AM   #108
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re: rear end bearing going out on tow vehicles - are these guys using good heavy weight diff fluid or they still using light weight stuff?
The ones we see still have the oem spec fluid, 75-90 synthetic, in them "It's under warranty, I don't have to do any maintenance, the salesman said so..." Had one of these weekend warriors decline a recommended diff service at 30k, "the manual doesn't say to change the fluid..." Grenaded at 38k.
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:33 AM   #109
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The ones we see still have the oem spec fluid, 75-90 synthetic, in them "It's under warranty, I don't have to do any maintenance, the salesman said so..." Had one of these weekend warriors decline a recommended diff service at 30k, "the manual doesn't say to change the fluid..." Grenaded at 38k.

HMm yeah, I was sorta thinking that. My thinking was, if the mindset of the owner is just hook up and go and not consider the full gamut of preparation for tow rig and trailer, they might not be fully prepared to tow.
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:44 AM   #110
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Heavy/light frames, 1/2 ton,3/4 ton, 5th wheel, gooseneck or tag, drum brakes or disc, or whatever you want to argue about, I'm more worried about the peson behind the wheel.
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:11 AM   #111
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Since no one bothered to look it up... The weight ratings of these campers are less than you would expect.
P.S. I am not going to comment on the double towing angle of this discussion.

1st one The company Thor appears to out of business so I can't comment.
2nd one weighs in from 7k to 8k With a carry cap of 2.5k

3rd one weighs in from 7k to 8k with a cargo capacity of 4k

4th Same as the second one

5th one isn't really a problem as it is an older trailer that if iirc weighs about 4k
Your figures put all the trailers at or exceeding 10K loaded. Kind of kills the 5-6K arguments for half ton. Our family does a lot of camping, and have been known to take up most of a loop at Assateague, ie, 10-12 or more campers. Some points to ponder - only 1 is running a diesel, and it's his work truck for construction. All others are running gassers. Several are running 1/2 ton trucks - all popups or small bumper pulls. Remainder are 5th wheels, mostly bigger ones, and no one tows them with a 1/2 ton. Mostly 3/4 and a couple 1 ton.

Group experience pretty much breaks it down this way - up to about 7K, 1/2 ton, above that, 3/4. Above about 10-11K, 1ton. Seems to work out for the best.

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Originally Posted by NUTTSGT View Post
Heavy/light frames, 1/2 ton,3/4 ton, 5th wheel, gooseneck or tag, drum brakes or disc, or whatever you want to argue about, I'm more worried about the peson behind the wheel.
Pretty scary that someone who has never towed a trailer can go out, buy a 1 ton truck and a 14,000 lb trailer, hook them up and hit the interstate. Doubt it happens often, but scary thought. Not hard to separate the types though - the bigger trailers doing 55-60 on the interstate usually know what's happening, those blowing by at 70+, not so much. YMMV.
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:26 AM   #112
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlnAgarage View Post
re: rear end bearing going out on tow vehicles - are these guys using good heavy weight diff fluid or they still using light weight stuff?
For the Tundra in my example, I'd guess he was running what ever Toyota put in it. A 3/4 ton truck will have decent gear oil in it from the factory though. 75w90 something. The heavier weight for severe duty on my is is Xw 140weight - I don't use it because I don't consider my fish n Ski @4000lbs even remotely close to severe duty. Regardless of the oil in it, a 3/4 ton rear end built much heavier than a 1/2 ton - bigger gears, carrier, bearings, housing etc. Bigger bearings will deal with a heavier load better than small ones, so will the other components.
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:40 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by IDASHO View Post
Rear axles, sure they do.

If they do not have Full-float, then they have semi-float.

Still a floating axle.

I dont know of ANY modern 3/4 ton truck that doesnt use semi or full-float rear axles.
I think you might be miss-informed...There is a massive difference between a semi and full float, and this certainly applies to towing..

Im posting this, not so much as to correct you, but to educate the guys and gals, that dont work on this stuff for a living, but otherwise, might want to know what to look for in a real "tow rig".

The word "float" has little if anything to do, with how well it performs, or how well works, or at least, you should not use the word to compare them, suggesting they are "similar", the word really denotes how different they are, or at least in practice.

After about 1981, at least for GM, they put semi-floats in 3/4 trucks (unless they where ordered with trailer tow, or a heavy GVW. Same way for Ford, a standard F250 was 6800 GVW it got a Semi, if it has a 8600 GVW (heavy package) you got a full float. I dont know anything about how Dodge built or sold their trucks, but I do have a 3/4 Dodge with a Cummins that has a Dana 70 full float.

Now, the only advantage to a semi-float in a 3/4 ton, is the size of the assembly (compared to a semi-float in a 1/2 ton), that its, otherwise, its no different than any other "RWD" standard car axle (by design), does not matter who made it, Dana, American Axle (most you guys call these "corporates"), Sterling, Dodge..

So here are your differences, with the semi float, your axle shaft is your inner "race" for the outboard bearings. If the bearing takes dump, your buying an axle shaft too. While not common, it does happen, especially, if the truck has spent its life loaded heavy, or has a boat load of miles on it. Also, if your bearings start to howl from wear, your probably buying two shafts as well, being that the shaft itself is the inner race. BAD DESIGN for the application. Great design if your selling parts, or if your building the vehicle, its cheaper to build.

Full float, if you lose a bearing, your replace the bearing and the race, no big deal. You also have 4 bearing assemblies carrying your load on the outboard part of the spindle, instead of 2 with a semi float. That would be "twice" the carrying capacity, by design. In real world terms you can overload the full float, for allot longer than a semi float.

Also, the axle shaft, is held in with a C-clip on some semi's, you shear the C-clip, and the axle shaft is coming out of the axle, and you are now driving a TRI POD ! Some semi's have a bolt on flange on the outboard, which is allot better than a C-clip.

Full float, axle shaft is held into the outer hub with "x" number of bolts. It aint going anywhere, in the event it is, you just come to a stop, because the hub assembly is still being held onto the axle by the spindle nut. The only reason you come to a stop, is if the shaft spline comes out of the carrier.

Ive avoided semi floats in everything Ive ever owned. I pulled the semi out from under my 89 Sub, put a full float back in. My newer E350 came with a Dana 60 SEMI FLOAT, I pulled it out and put in a 99 E350 Dana FULL FLOAT.

And back around 1989, I sheared the axle shaft, in my 86 F350, at about 100k miles. I sheared the shaft clean off, that had a C6 (automatic), so it was not sheared from "sudden impact" of torque, that truck also had a 6.9L dog in it. That of course was a Full float, it was also a DRW pickup. The wheels stayed on the truck, I just came to a slow stop. Bought a used shaft, and was back on my way

I also have seen first had a semi-float axle shaft come out from under a camaro that was making a left hand turn through and intersection, the wheel, brake drum and shaft went bouncing all over the place as the camaro sparked on down the road.

I was also behind a wrangler on the rubicon, and watched the axle shaft walk out of the axle housing, not a good place to loose a shaft. It took the wheel cylinder off the backing plate as it came off. Always nice to loose a shaft and brakes at the same time, of course it was a semi float !

I tow, as I mentioned earlier, with an F450, I specifically bought that truck because of its GVW of 16500. Not sure what the combined is.

I also picked that truck, because it has hydraulically assisted brakes, not vacuum assisted (gm guys call this hydro-boost). I also bought it because it has big ass disc brakes on all 4 corners, and its a dually, and of course has a full float, I think its a Dana 80, but Im not sure. I wont drive/own anything with a semi float, unless its a car.

So no, you wont see my rolling down the interstate with a load on, driving a truck with 3 wheels. I also dont want to incur the expense of changing axle shafts due to a shit design.

One other note, you can also abuse a Full Float to the point of failure and to the point of loosing the wheels. I rebuilt the TH400 in an 89 C-30 years ago, it was a "shop truck" used for running errands. I put a motor in it, and a month or two later, with the power of a new motor, they managed to burn up the trans. So I rebuilt the 400, a couple weeks later, they call me and tell me that the truck "stopped" going down the road, and the trans was not working.

I jumped in the wrecker to go retrieve it. I get there, start it up, drop in in gear, and I can hear the trans/drive shaft turning. Upon closer inspection, I found BOTH bearings on the passenger side of the full float rear axle had failed, and the right hand hub/duals where starting to come off the spindle, which brought the axle shaft out of carrier, so the power was going no where (which is why the truck stopped). So you can screw up even a full float, with no maintenance.


I found this on the web, it explains it better than I can..


There are several basic rear axle types used in 4x4s, and each have specific design pros and cons. Axle designs can vary in load handling, bearing and flange type, and gearset configuration. In this article we'll take a look at rear axles and discuss the benefits of various designs.

SEMI-FLOATER vs. FULL-FLOATER

There are two types of rear axles found on light-duty 4x4s: semi-floating and full-floating. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.

A semi-floating axle is very common on the rear of most 4x4s. It consists of an axleshaft on each side that is splined on the inner end where it mates to the differential and has a wheel flange where the wheel studs mount at the other end. This assembly typically mates to the end of the axlehousing using some type of flange arrangement. The axleshaft also rides on a large roller or ball bearing out at the end of the axlehousing.
0112Or Axle01 Zoom
1. This Dana 35C semi-floater rear axle from a late-model Jeep TJ uses a flanged outer axl

The axleshaft in a semi-floating assembly serves two purposes. First, it attaches to the wheel and is used to support the weight of the vehicle and its cargo. Second, the axleshaft must transmit the rotational torque from the differential out to the wheel.

A full-floating axle can be found on the rear of some 4x4s, but it is generally reserved for vehicles that are designed for severe duty, or are intended to carry heavy loads. This type of axle uses an axleshaft on each side that is simply splined at both ends or splined on the inner end and has a drive flange on the outer end. The shaft mates to the differential in the same way as a semi-floater. However, the outer end of the shaft differs. Here, the splined end of the shaft slides into a locking hub or an internal splined steel drive plate that bolts to a hub cap, similar to what is found on a front axle. In some cases, the drive flange may be part of the shaft itself. In either case, the axleshaft is allowed to float in the system.

For a full-floater system, the axleshaft only serves to transmit the rotational torque from the differential out to the wheel. It does not carry the weight of the vehicle like a semi-floater does. On a full floater, a spindle is attached to the outer end of the axlehousing. The hub's cap is attached to this spindle and rides on tapered roller bearings. It is this assembly that carries the vehicle weight. As such, a full-floating axle system is considerably stronger than an equivalently sized semi-floating system.
0112Or Axle02 Zoom
2. A full-floater axle is easily recognized externally by the drive flange or locking hub

For those of you who carry heavy loads, this means your axle load capacity is greatly increased with a full-floater. Load ratings for similar vehicles with the two different axles are usually significantly different. If you do hard-core 'wheeling on big tires, a full-floater means that your axleshafts can also handle much more loading than a similar semi-floater could because it now must only handle torque loading.

Further advantages of a full-floater include being able to remove a broken axleshaft, yet still have the ability to keep a functional rolling tire on that corner of the vehicle. This can be done since the wheel actually bolts to the hub that rides on the spindle attached to the axlehousing. If the axle has manual locking hubs, it may be possible to unlock the rear hubs for towing a disabled vehicle on the trail or for flat towing over the road.

It is now possible to convert some semi-floater rear axles to full-floaters using aftermarket kits. These kits allow an owner to easily upgrade the axleshaft strength of his axle. However, such a kit does not upgrade the differential assembly, so axles with this portion as a weak link would not benefit much from such a conversion.

http://www.off-roadweb.com/tech/0112...les/index.html

Last edited by Busted_Knuckles; 05-12-2012 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:42 AM   #114
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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Originally Posted by srode View Post
For the Tundra in my example, I'd guess he was running what ever Toyota put in it. A 3/4 ton truck will have decent gear oil in it from the factory though. 75w90 something. The heavier weight for severe duty on my is is Xw 140weight - I don't use it because I don't consider my fish n Ski @4000lbs even remotely close to severe duty. Regardless of the oil in it, a 3/4 ton rear end built much heavier than a 1/2 ton - bigger gears, carrier, bearings, housing etc. Bigger bearings will deal with a heavier load better than small ones, so will the other components.
I realize the difference in hard parts. My point is that the tow rig still needs to be prepped. If these guys insist on running 1/2T then they need to be informed enough to run proper fluids in the truck to help it survive the job.


I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm just watching for the entertainment. I'm in a 3/4T Ram and having been around both 1/2T gassers and 3/4T diesels in a farming family, I'm aware of the pros and cons and definitely have my preferences
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:52 AM   #115
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

My Dodge 1500 has never towed a fifth wheel, or to my knowledge anything over 2-3,000 lbs. A couple weeks ago it smoked the bearings in the rear end. This with 75w-140 gear oil changed every 50,000 miles, it had 172,000 miles on it.

Meanwhile my co-worker has a Tundra with a V-6, with a fifth wheel setup to tow his 30' camper to various places he feels like visiting on vacation. While I laughed at him initially, the truck seems to do it and never complain. I dont agree with him doing this, but I have never drivin his truck loaded, or drivin his truck at all for that matter. I know that I never would attempt a fifth wheel setup in my Ram, or even a tag along camper for that matter. Maybe I would do a small tag along in the 05 F150, that one feels more planted then the Ram does.

I know this does nothing to contribute, but this thread just made me think of it.
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Old 05-12-2012, 10:01 AM   #116
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

Oh dear, now every single example from this point forward will be through the fluid weight prism. I'm sorry I ever brought it up. But since I did...


BTW, my owner's manual under the schedule B plan has got the rear fluid 75w90 being changed every 15k.

Schedule B:
- Temps below 0*
- stop & go
- excessive idling
- dusty conditions
- short trips <10ms
- 50% driving sustained at >90*F
- trailer towing
- offroad/desert op
- taxi, police service
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Old 05-12-2012, 10:05 AM   #117
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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Originally Posted by Busted_Knuckles View Post
I think you might be miss-informed...There is a massive difference between a semi and full float, and this certainly applies to towing..

Im posting this, not so much as to correct you, but to educate the guys and gals, that dont work on this stuff for a living, but otherwise, might want to know what to look for in a real "tow rig".

The word "float" has little if anything to do, with how well it performs, or how well works, or at least, you should not use the word to compare them, suggesting they are "similar", the word really denotes how different they are, or at least in practice.

After about 1981, at least for GM, they put semi-floats in 3/4 trucks (unless they where ordered with trailer tow, or a heavy GVW. Same way for Ford, a standard F250 was 6800 GVW it got a Semi, if it has a 8600 GVW (heavy package) you got a full float. I dont know anything about how Dodge built or sold their trucks, but I do have a 3/4 Dodge with a Cummins that has a Dana 70 full float.

Now, the only advantage to a semi-float in a 3/4 ton, is the size of the assembly (compared to a semi-float in a 1/2 ton), that its, otherwise, its no different than any other "RWD" standard car axle (by design), does not matter who made it, Dana, American Axle (most you guys call these "corporates"), Sterling, Dodge..

So here are your differences, with the semi float, your axle shaft is your inner "race" for the outboard bearings. If the bearing takes dump, your buying an axle shaft too. While not common, it does happen, especially, if the truck has spent its life loaded heavy, or has a boat load of miles on it. Also, if your bearings start to howl from wear, your probably buying two shafts as well, being that the shaft itself is the inner race. BAD DESIGN for the application. Great design if your selling parts, or if your building the vehicle, its cheaper to build.

Full float, if you lose a bearing, your replace the bearing and the race, no big deal. You also have 4 bearing assemblies carrying your load on the outboard part of the spindle, instead of 2 with a semi float. That would be "twice" the carrying capacity, by design. In real world terms you can overload the full float, for allot longer than a semi float.

Also, the axle shaft, is held in with a C-clip on some semi's, you shear the C-clip, and the axle shaft is coming out of the axle, and you are now driving a TRI POD ! Some semi's have a bolt on flange on the outboard, which is allot better than a C-clip.

Full float, axle shaft is held into the outer hub with "x" number of bolts. It aint going anywhere, in the event it is, you just come to a stop, because the hub assembly is still being held onto the axle by the spindle nut. The only reason you come to a stop, is if the shaft spline comes out of the carrier.

Ive avoided semi floats in everything Ive ever owned. I pulled the semi out from under my 89 Sub, put a full float back in. My newer E350 came with a Dana 60 SEMI FLOAT, I pulled it out and put in a 99 E350 Dana FULL FLOAT.

And back around 1989, I sheared the axle shaft, in my 86 F350, at about 100k miles. I sheared the shaft clean off, that had a C6 (automatic), so it was not sheared from "sudden impact" of torque, that truck also had a 6.9L dog in it. That of course was a Full float, it was also a DRW pickup. The wheels stayed on the truck, I just came to a slow stop. Bought a used shaft, and was back on my way

I also have seen first had a semi-float axle shaft come out from under a camaro that was making a left hand turn through and intersection, the wheel, brake drum and shaft went bouncing all over the place as the sparked on down the road.

I also was behind a wrangler on the rubicon, and watched the axle shaft walk out of the axle, not a good place to loose a shaft. I took the wheel cylinder off the backing plate as it came off. Alway nice to loose a shaft and brakes at the same time, of course it was a semi float !

I tow, as I mentioned earlier, with an F450, I specifically bought that truck because of its GVW of 16500. Not sure what the combined is.

I also picked that truck, because it has hydraulically assisted brakes, not vacuum assisted (gm guys call this hydro-boost). I also bought it because it has big ass disc brakes, and its a dually, and of course has a full float, I think its a Dana 80, but Im not sure. I wont drive/own anything with a semi float, unless its a car.

So no, you wont see my rolling down the interstate with a load on, driving a truck with 3 wheels. I also dont want to incur the expense of changing axle shafts due to a shit design.

One other note, you can also abuse a Full Float to the point of failure and to the point of loosing the wheels. I rebuilt the TH400 in an 89 C-30 years ago, it was a "shop truck" used for running errands. I put a motor in it, and a month or two later, with the power of a new motor, they managed to burn up the trans. So I rebuilt the 400, a couple weeks later, they call me and tell me that the truck "stopped" going down the road, and the trans was not working.

I jumped in the wrecker to go retrieve it. I get there, start it up, drop in in gear, and I can hear the trans/drive shaft turning. Upon closer inspection, I found BOTH bearings on the passenger side of the full float rear axle had failed, and the right hand hub/duals where starting to come off the spindle, which brought the axle shaft out of carrier, so the power was going no where (which is why the truck stopped). So you can screw up even a full float, with no maintenance.


I found this on the web, it explains it better than I can..


There are several basic rear axle types used in 4x4s, and each have specific design pros and cons. Axle designs can vary in load handling, bearing and flange type, and gearset configuration. In this article we'll take a look at rear axles and discuss the benefits of various designs.

SEMI-FLOATER vs. FULL-FLOATER

There are two types of rear axles found on light-duty 4x4s: semi-floating and full-floating. Each has its advantages and disadvantages.

A semi-floating axle is very common on the rear of most 4x4s. It consists of an axleshaft on each side that is splined on the inner end where it mates to the differential and has a wheel flange where the wheel studs mount at the other end. This assembly typically mates to the end of the axlehousing using some type of flange arrangement. The axleshaft also rides on a large roller or ball bearing out at the end of the axlehousing.
0112Or Axle01 Zoom
1. This Dana 35C semi-floater rear axle from a late-model Jeep TJ uses a flanged outer axl

The axleshaft in a semi-floating assembly serves two purposes. First, it attaches to the wheel and is used to support the weight of the vehicle and its cargo. Second, the axleshaft must transmit the rotational torque from the differential out to the wheel.

A full-floating axle can be found on the rear of some 4x4s, but it is generally reserved for vehicles that are designed for severe duty, or are intended to carry heavy loads. This type of axle uses an axleshaft on each side that is simply splined at both ends or splined on the inner end and has a drive flange on the outer end. The shaft mates to the differential in the same way as a semi-floater. However, the outer end of the shaft differs. Here, the splined end of the shaft slides into a locking hub or an internal splined steel drive plate that bolts to a hub cap, similar to what is found on a front axle. In some cases, the drive flange may be part of the shaft itself. In either case, the axleshaft is allowed to float in the system.

For a full-floater system, the axleshaft only serves to transmit the rotational torque from the differential out to the wheel. It does not carry the weight of the vehicle like a semi-floater does. On a full floater, a spindle is attached to the outer end of the axlehousing. The hub's cap is attached to this spindle and rides on tapered roller bearings. It is this assembly that carries the vehicle weight. As such, a full-floating axle system is considerably stronger than an equivalently sized semi-floating system.
0112Or Axle02 Zoom
2. A full-floater axle is easily recognized externally by the drive flange or locking hub

For those of you who carry heavy loads, this means your axle load capacity is greatly increased with a full-floater. Load ratings for similar vehicles with the two different axles are usually significantly different. If you do hard-core 'wheeling on big tires, a full-floater means that your axleshafts can also handle much more loading than a similar semi-floater could because it now must only handle torque loading.

Further advantages of a full-floater include being able to remove a broken axleshaft, yet still have the ability to keep a functional rolling tire on that corner of the vehicle. This can be done since the wheel actually bolts to the hub that rides on the spindle attached to the axlehousing. If the axle has manual locking hubs, it may be possible to unlock the rear hubs for towing a disabled vehicle on the trail or for flat towing over the road.

It is now possible to convert some semi-floater rear axles to full-floaters using aftermarket kits. These kits allow an owner to easily upgrade the axleshaft strength of his axle. However, such a kit does not upgrade the differential assembly, so axles with this portion as a weak link would not benefit much from such a conversion.

http://www.off-roadweb.com/tech/0112...les/index.html
Thanks for posting that up. Some people just need to learn the hard way unfortunately.
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Old 05-12-2012, 10:10 AM   #118
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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Originally Posted by GirlnAgarage View Post
Oh dear, now every single example from this point forward will be through the fluid weight prism. I'm sorry I ever brought it up. But since I did...


BTW, my owner's manual under the schedule B plan has got the rear fluid 75w90 being changed every 15k.

Schedule B:
- Temps below 0*
- stop & go
- excessive idling
- dusty conditions
- short trips <10ms
- 50% driving sustained at >90*F
- trailer towing
- offroad/desert op
- taxi, police service
I would hazard to guess that 95 out of a 100 failures are due to the fluid level being too low. Not the viscosity. A great many rear axles depend on the oil running down the tubes to keep the bearings/hubs lubed.
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Old 05-12-2012, 10:10 AM   #119
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

about 4 years ago, when i bought my 84 z28, my wife and i took off to maryland to pick it up.

we towed it home with my 2000 astro on a uhaul car trailer equipped with hydraulic brakes. it towed fine, but i had no business trying to bumper pull a 5500lb load.

knowing what i know now, i probably wouldn't have attempted it at the time.
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Old 05-12-2012, 10:14 AM   #120
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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I would hazard to guess that 95 out of a 100 failures are due to the fluid level being too low. Not the viscosity. A great many rear axles depend on the oil running down the tubes to keep the bearings/hubs lubed.
That's a pretty large percentage running on low fluid. If many owners don't even bother to change the fluid before the rear grenades, does the fluid evaporate or was it not filled to full from the start? (Oh crap, I just implied the manf screwed up)

Someone hand me another shovel, mine broke and I'm not done digging.

Seriously people, vehicles break, from all kinds of things. Even if everything is done right they still break.
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Old 05-12-2012, 10:20 AM   #121
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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Originally Posted by GirlnAgarage View Post
That's a pretty large percentage running on low fluid. If many owners don't even bother to change the fluid before the rear grenades, does the fluid evaporate or was it not filled to full from the start? (Oh crap, I just implied the manf screwed up)

Someone hand me another shovel, mine broke and I'm not done digging.

Seriously people, vehicles break, from all kinds of things. Even if everything is done right they still break.
Those are just arbitrary numbers. You do know how muffler bearings work right?
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Old 05-12-2012, 10:22 AM   #122
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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Those are just arbitrary numbers. You do know how muffler bearings work right?
Shieeet, I just reinstalled some new ones and refilled my blinker fluid


Oh on the numbers, yeah they're arbitrary. I did the rear on mine first time at 45k and now again at 58k and the fluid looked and smelled fine. So I concluded that time can be extended from the 15k that the manual states assuming the same type of use. The front like fine too but I don't know it's prior history.

A lot of folks never get to know their vehicles because they never work on them. They don't see what fluids look like enough to make informed decisions on when are good markers for fluid changes and regular maintenance. It takes time and experience to learn these things, it just doesn't happen overnight. I know you already know that, I'm just saying outloud so you know I recognize that.

Obviously a lot happens to vehicles than just fluids. But I'm one to put emphasis on good fundamentals. I don't like saying "I have no idea" for a truck that I depend on, and frankly love.
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Old 05-12-2012, 10:35 AM   #123
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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Originally Posted by GirlnAgarage View Post
That's a pretty large percentage running on low fluid. If many owners don't even bother to change the fluid before the rear grenades, does the fluid evaporate or was it not filled to full from the start? (Oh crap, I just implied the manf screwed up)

Someone hand me another shovel, mine broke and I'm not done digging.

Seriously people, vehicles break, from all kinds of things. Even if everything is done right they still break.
exactly. shit breaks.
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Old 05-12-2012, 10:45 AM   #124
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exactly. shit breaks.
But...... Sheet breaks more often when using for something beyond what they were built to handle!
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Old 05-12-2012, 10:52 AM   #125
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Thanks for posting that up. Some people just need to learn the hard way unfortunately.
Your welcome, I also didnt mention in my post, I own 2 goose necks, and around 8 or 9, Id have to count them, regular trailers, not including my boat trailer.

I "hobby farm", I have livestock that I buy and sell, I also move horses, allot hay (which btw is not "light"), transport a full size skid loader, utility tractor, and I attend allot of auctions. I also buy and sell cars and trucks, and will wander to both coasts, to get them.

I pull ALLOT of trailers and move allot of crap. I even got a fork lift that I will take with me to sales.

One other thing I should mention, I bought a 32' flat bed, as in flat deck trailer at an auction. It had tandem axles dual wheels. I thought I could tow it home with my 3/4 Sub.

I hooked onto it, I pulled it about 30' and stopped, didnt make it off the property and I could "feel" it was too heavy, so I backed it up to where it was sitting, and parked it.

In doing so, even though I never even made it to the street, I bent the rear frame of the the suburban. It has no rust, and it maybe had 40k miles on it, at the time. I ripped the body mounts clean out of the frame while doing so. The the the body itself, could not even help the frame, they pulled apart. The frame bent just past the rear axle leaf spring perch.

So I drove home, got the F450, and went back after it. Lesson learned.

Point being, that some tongue weights, can be too much for some vehicles. I will note, this trailer was "empty", had nothing on it, but still managed to do a $1000 worth of frame/body mount damage. I knew I was pushing the envelope, but really thought Id blow a tire, a bearing, or something before I bent the frame.

That was truly one of my rare "stupid" moments. I knew I should not do it, but I didnt want to drive home and switch vehicles. I was on my way to a car show out of town, and passed by an auction that was i "in action". I never made it to the car show. So I didnt set out that day to buy this trailer, I just "happened upon it".
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Old 05-12-2012, 05:01 PM   #126
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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Well, I haven't towed with a late-70s F150. I cut my teeth towing with an early 80's Mazda B2000 that had a 5-speed and a 70 HP 4-cylinder engine. Probably towed way more than I should have, but I was younger then. We can debate who has towed the most miles, but it wouldn't get us anywhere. You've probably got more miles than me, but I'm no stranger to towing trailers.

Most (dare I say all?) single axle trailers less than 3500-lbs don't have brakes. In Virginia, the cutoff limit for trailers equipped with not brakes is...you guessed it, 3500-lbs. You would have to go an special order a single axle trailer with brakes if you wanted them--at least in my neck of the woods. I didn't say I tow 6300-lbs with no brakes; that would be stupid. My dual axle car hauler is brake equipped (brakes on both axles) and controlled with a nice Prodigy controller. No problems stopping! When I'm towing, especially with a heavy load, I leave a lot more distance following distance, drive a little slower and generally be more careful. I've never had to make a panic stop with a loaded trailer--I anticipate. My truck has ABS and if desired, my brake controller can lock all 4-wheels. I can stop just fine.

I guess I'm the guy towing heavy loads with a mid-size truck and everyone says, what is that guy doing towing a tractor with that thing--he needs a bigger truck. You're the guy with the 5X8 utility trailer and the F250 and everyone says "Does that guy really need a truck that big to tow that little thing with?" : ) Oh well, we probably won't see eye to eye on this.

On a side note, I'm loving your Ecoboost build-up! Looking forward to more updates.
I thought it was just a newbie trying to stir the pot. Regardless I should not have responded the way I did no matter how many posts you have. I apologize for that rough day or not..

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Old 05-12-2012, 06:39 PM   #127
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I think you might be miss-informed...There is a massive difference between a semi and full float, and this certainly applies to towing.. [/url]
Im well aware. And quite posting things out of context. The post i replied to states that not all modern 3/4 and 1-tons came with floating axles.

The simple fact is that they do. I am not miss-informed whatsoever.
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Old 05-12-2012, 07:34 PM   #128
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

I know many folks that don't see a difference with 3/4 to 1 ton trucks. I live close to a highway that is a weekend avenue to adventure, and see lots of stupid tows. 1/2 tons with 5'ers and doubles. Hitches almost dragging the ground, long trailers obviously loaded improperly, and tons of stuff hanging over the bed rails.

When I bought 2002 F150 Supercrew, I chose the bigger engine, and a full tow package. But opted for 3.55 gears versus 3.73s for economy, since I didn't own a trailer. My truck is listed to tow 8500 pounds. And I have towed 7000 on a few occassions. But I just can't imagine having any fun with a trailer at its full rating. One load was a Ford Explorer loaded with stuff on a heavy older style U-Haul car trailer. Surge brakes worked, but I will never own a trailer with them.

Conversely, my 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee has a factory tow package and is rated at 4500 or so. I have towed a tow dolly with a 1990 Jeep Cherokee on behind my Jeep. No real issue getting it to speed, but stopping wasn't any fun, but I knew that going in with the tow. I don't consider my Jeep to have adequate brakes for itself, much less an additional 4000 pounds. My 1972 Srarcraft tent trailer weighs in about 1200 pounds, and is getting a new axle this summer. 3500# rating and electric brakes. Overkill for the trailer. Enhanced comfort and safety for me.

Just because the manul says you can tow a certain weight, doesn't mean you should. Maintenance and loading do indeed play critical roles as well.
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Old 05-12-2012, 07:37 PM   #129
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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Im well aware. And quite posting things out of context. The post i replied to states that not all modern 3/4 and 1-tons came with floating axles.

The simple fact is that they do. I am not miss-informed whatsoever.
Yes you are. No one said anything about 1 tons not having full floaters, no one said anything about modern. You made a blanket statement that all 3/4 trucks have full floating axles ,not semi floating but full floating and I called you on it, then you tried to say they are the same thing and they are not the same.
What I said is not all 3/4 tons have full floaters and I know this for a fact as my 84 Chevy C20 (14 Bolt) does not have full floaters.
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Old 05-12-2012, 07:59 PM   #130
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You made a blanket statement that all 3/4 trucks have full floating axles ,not semi floating but full floating and I called you on it, then you tried to say they are the same thing and they are not the same.
Uh, NO I DIDNT

You sure you know how to read? Or at least know who you are quoting??
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:08 PM   #131
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What I said is not all 3/4 tons have full floaters and I know this for a fact as my 84 Chevy C20 (14 Bolt) does not have full floaters.
Now you are lying through your teeth.

What you originally said is clearly visible in my quote, right after your post.

You stated:

"Not all 3/4 tons have floating axles."

Which is incorrect. You have since corrected your post to "Not all 3/4 tons have Full Floating axles."

There is a BIG difference.
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:33 PM   #132
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Nope. I know whereof I speak. My old half ton Suburban , If I recall the exact number, weighed something like 3560 lbs. my '05 F250 weighed 7K, @15 MPG. Current F350 weighs 7600, with a GVWR of 11,000, and still gets 15 empty. Hauling as 14K trailer tho is another story.
My 1995 Suburban weighs 5160 and has a GVWR 7200. 10000 tow capacity with trailer brakes, and it would need them, it lacks in the brake dept.

Now my 1988 Gmc S15 weights 3400 with my fat butt in it, I only know this as a fact because I hauled my trash off today and they weigh you in and out.

Also I see no problem with most of the trucks picture as long as they have safe driver in it. No matter what you pull it with if the driver is unsafe or reckless it can end badly.
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:34 PM   #133
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Im well aware. And quite posting things out of context. The post i replied to states that not all modern 3/4 and 1-tons came with floating axles.

The simple fact is that they do. I am not miss-informed whatsoever.
Ok, first off, I did not take you out of context, I quoted your post. Secondly, you say that like Ive done it before (taken you out of context) ? Thirdly, its "quit" not "quiet". And now you have changed your "text" to say "all" have floating axles ?

To say all 3/4 and 1 tons come with "floating" axles, is like saying all pick up trucks come with hoods and doors. Whats the point ? Why even state it ?

I still dont think you grasp the technical differences of it all. The word "float" implies nothing, in the aspect of a semi float. If its RWD, with a hotchkiss style drive train, its a semi float. That includes anything that is RWD, and does not have REAR independent suspension, therefore, including cars, and it does not necessitate mentioning, its that obvious. If it rolls, and it has wheels, and power is at the back, its a semi float, chevette to F250.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotchkiss_drive

If it is FULL FLOAT, then it is different from everything else, and is worthy of mention.

Furthermore, NOT ALL 1980 AND NEWER DOMESTIC TRUCKS HAVE FULL FLOATS, THIS IS FACT, NOT FANTASY. 3/4 ton trucks from 81 and up, more have semis, than full floats. I cant find numbers on it, but its a fact. Only if they where ordered with trailer tow, camper package, a diesel, or some other "heavy" option, did they get a full float, it was on option, not standard equipment.

If you worked on these trucks for a living, you would know that.
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:44 PM   #134
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But...... Sheet breaks more often when using for something beyond what they were built to handle!
this is true. fwiw, i averaged 13 mpg for that trip to maryland.

i've since added timbren insulators to the back of the van, and also added air shocks.

i'd love to put a set of LT tires on this van.
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:46 PM   #135
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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And now you have changed your "text" to say "all" have floating axles ?
What are you talking about??? I havnt edited anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Busted_Knuckles View Post
To say all 3/4 and 1 tons come with "floating" axles, is like saying all pick up trucks come with hoods and doors. Whats the point ? Why even state it ?
Gee I wonder.... because people tow shit all the time with rigs that DONT have floating axles?? Ever heard of IRS? It is VERY common in small and midsized SUVs, and is getting more common n full size SUVs. GMC has already toyed with IRD TRUCKS. There are also some crossovers (unibody, independent rear suspension PICKUPS) on the market.

None of which have FLOATING AXLES.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Busted_Knuckles View Post
Furthermore, NOT ALL 1980 AND NEWER DOMESTIC TRUCKS HAVE FULL FLOATS, THIS IS FACT, NOT FANTASY.
Show me ONE place in this thread that I stated that ALL modern trucks have FULL FLOAT

You are on crack dude....
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:49 PM   #136
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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When I bought 2002 F150 Supercrew, I chose the bigger engine, and a full tow package. But opted for 3.55 gears versus 3.73s for economy, since I didn't own a trailer. My truck is listed to tow 8500 pounds. And I have towed 7000 on a few occassions. But I just can't imagine having any fun with a trailer at its full rating. One load was a Ford Explorer loaded with stuff on a heavy older style U-Haul car trailer. Surge brakes worked, but I will never own a trailer with them.
Had the 3.55LS in my 00 F150 with the 5.4L. I made the mistake of putting the 4x4 size tires on the 2wd. Man that thing was pathetic. Our 04 Escape pulls better in stock form. 17mpg constant on the highway was nice but next time 3.73's or higher.
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:51 PM   #137
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

To add some fun to the thread (which it needs badly) I present -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLe3kiNGWyk
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Old 05-12-2012, 08:54 PM   #138
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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Show me ONE place in this thread that I stated that ALL modern trucks have FULL FLOAT

You are on crack dude....
Ahem...

Quote:
Originally Posted by IDASHO View Post
Im well aware. And quite posting things out of context. The post i replied to states that not all modern 3/4 and 1-tons came with floating axles.

The simple fact is that they do. I am not miss-informed whatsoever.
When I posted "not all 3/4 tons have floating axles" it was in the context of the previous post saying that all 3/4 tons have full floaters. Seeing how it could have been misread I did go back and add the word FULL to my original post.

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Old 05-12-2012, 08:59 PM   #139
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

So again...

show me ONE place that I stated that all trucks come with FULL FLOAT

Are you seriously THAT blind?
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:02 PM   #140
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When I posted "not all 3/4 tons have floating axles" it was in the context of the previous post saying that all 3/4 tons have full floaters.
As Ive been trying to explain...


YOU are the cause for all this stupidness.

As I said, there is a HUGE difference between full float and semi.

And AS I SAID, ALL modern 3/4 trucks come with floating axles, either full float or semi.


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Old 05-12-2012, 09:02 PM   #141
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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To add some fun to the thread (which it needs badly) I present -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLe3kiNGWyk
That's good stuff...now does that bug have a full or semi floating axle?
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:09 PM   #142
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

i think i have seen it all now.
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:14 PM   #143
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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As Ive been trying to explain...


YOU are the cause for all this stupidness.

As I said, there is a HUGE difference between full float and semi.

And AS I SAID, ALL modern 3/4 trucks come with floating axles, either full float or semi.


I am not the cause of all of this. Solid axles are either semi or full float.
You are the one that won't let it go! I made a comment that had an adjective missing, and I apologize for that. But you have been the one spouting bad info and busted knuckles has repeatedly tried to set the record straight.
Would it make you feel better if I call you " Lord of Floating Axles"?
DUDE LET IT GO.
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:18 PM   #144
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I made a comment that had an adjective missing, and I apologize for that.

At least we have that settled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Copytech View Post
But you have been the one spouting bad info \

Bad info?

Start quoting. Otherwise you are completely full of bull shit.
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:18 PM   #145
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Default Re: 5th wheel in a 1/2 ton

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So again...

show me ONE place that I stated that all trucks come with FULL FLOAT

Are you seriously THAT blind?
You are hopeless. Try reading your post again.

I love a good flame war.

Last edited by Copytech; 05-12-2012 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:24 PM   #146
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You are a dumb one...

That post was a request. One of which still hasnt been responded to.


Better start finding some posts of mine with mis-information. Good luck finding them.
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Old 05-12-2012, 09:26 PM   #147
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Im waiting....
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