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Old 07-17-2012, 06:54 AM   #1
checkthisout
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Default Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

I have noticed that some of the adjacent roads have topsoil coming up through the gravel and sink considerably.

I was going to pile logs and brush as best I could for underlayment but may not have enough and it may not be effective.

Are those fabric underlayments worth the cost and do they work?
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:17 AM   #2
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

I think so. We used a geo-grid type product on a project recently to bridge an area where we couldn't get adequate compaction of the subgrade due to underground utilities and it is holding up fine.
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:43 AM   #3
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

They are well worth it if moisture will continue to seep into a newly laid driveway and you need to use it in all weather. There are heaps of different types for all sorts of applications, so get the right on for the job.

http://www.geofabrics.com.au/products/products

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Old 07-17-2012, 06:48 PM   #4
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by checkthisout View Post
...
I was going to pile logs and brush as best I could for underlayment but may not have enough and it may not be effective.
...
Logs and brush as an under-layment? Am I reading the correctly, or totally misreading the statement?
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Old 07-17-2012, 07:46 PM   #5
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

A number of the old pioneer roads in this area are Corduroy roads, built by laying logs perpendicular to the road direction over swampy ground and then covering it with sand and eventually gravel. Most are still in reasonable shape although you often see log ends showing when pushed up by frost in the spring.
Apparently this type of road has been used since Roman times.
Don't know about brush though.
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:02 PM   #6
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

Take the grade down, add 4" quarry spalls, fabric, 1-1/4 crushed, fabric, and then 5/8 minus with fines.
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

If you do not use geo-fabric when putting stone on top of dirt ....... you are throwing money away in the end ...... the stone will sink into the mud eventually without a separation that the fabric provides.
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:24 AM   #8
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

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Logs and brush as an under-layment? Am I reading the correctly, or totally misreading the statement?
Yes. Old growth cedar and such along with other evergreen brush that takes many 10's of years to even begin to decay.
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:27 AM   #9
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

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Take the grade down, add 4" quarry spalls, fabric, 1-1/4 crushed, fabric, and then 5/8 minus with fines.
This is ideal, but cost is an issue which leaves ideal out.

What if I just grade, push crud in to the mud, grade again, overlay with fabric and then top with gravel???

That right there will cost me around 4 grand....or would the fabric tear over time.

I am all ears but at the same I gotta save money. I think I am actually thinking along the lines that the fabric is going to help with the integrity of the road when maybe I am expecting too much of it.
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Old 07-18-2012, 05:49 PM   #10
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

do it right the first time or do it wrong several. what do you choose ? as my dad used to say, "you can't make chicken salad out of chicken $h!t"
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:58 PM   #11
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

Swamp and mud = water.
Find ways to drain or divert it.
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:02 PM   #12
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

maybe i did it wrong but i scraped off the top soil spread out a old school mostly cinder blocks and brick tracked it in with a d8 and then spread big rock then spread 2 in clean. been fine for 5 years with heavy traffic. I guess time will tell.
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

I don't know where you are, or what your situation, but I would be sure I was square with the law before working in a wetland. The fines in many places can get very steep, very quickly and restoration is usually much more expensive than the original construction.

With that taken care of, organic and fine soils are difficult to build on successfully, they hold water, are very susceptible to freeze/thaw movement and generally do not hold together well when wet. Removing any such soils down to coarser material or below any frost line would be the first step, then building back up with stone, crushed masonry, gravel, or whatever coarse material you can afford would be next. Corduroy can be acceptable if the wood is buried where oxygen cannot get to it to expedite decomposition.
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Old 07-22-2012, 06:23 PM   #14
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

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I don't know where you are, or what your situation, but I would be sure I was square with the law before working in a wetland. The fines in many places can get very steep, very quickly and restoration is usually much more expensive than the original construction.

With that taken care of, organic and fine soils are difficult to build on successfully, they hold water, are very susceptible to freeze/thaw movement and generally do not hold together well when wet. Removing any such soils down to coarser material or below any frost line would be the first step, then building back up with stone, crushed masonry, gravel, or whatever coarse material you can afford would be next. Corduroy can be acceptable if the wood is buried where oxygen cannot get to it to expedite decomposition.
I am making a spot to park a trailer to camp but need to build an 700" driveway for access much of which will go through "swamp".

The whole area, for miles around, no matter where you dig you hit water and any low spots are swampy.

The adjacent access has large ruts even though it's about 20" above grade and lots of black on what was once crushed rock. In my mind this has to be coming from underneath due to pumping and settling. I want to prevent this on my own access but at the same do not have an endless supply of funds.

I am thinking the fabric will reduce the amount of rock I will need to haul in and the cost of the fabric will offset the need for the extra rock @ 400.00 a dumptruck load.

We'll soon find out.
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Old 07-22-2012, 08:21 PM   #15
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

Is this road just for trailer storage if so maybe use concrete washout. Its free to your door around here. Also talk to a precast company they thow away cracked panels all the time they are 4x12 and 8in thick. You could lay them down and put rock over them it would keep your rock from disappearing.
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Old 07-22-2012, 09:34 PM   #16
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

A wetland is defined as an area which supports wetland vegetation and has water within one foot of the soil surface for at least two weeks during the growing season. Whether a wetland is regulated, and a permit is required, depends on the laws which apply to your area. In most of the country the Corps of Engineers handles wetland permitting, but many places may have state or local laws which apply. With modern satellite imagery it is very difficult to hide changes made to a wetland if work is done without a required permit. Not trying to be a downer, but it is MUCH cheaper to do things legal than pay the fines if caught doing work in a wetland illegally.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:48 AM   #17
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

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A wetland is defined as an area which supports wetland vegetation and has water within one foot of the soil surface for at least two weeks during the growing season. Whether a wetland is regulated, and a permit is required, depends on the laws which apply to your area. In most of the country the Corps of Engineers handles wetland permitting, but many places may have state or local laws which apply. With modern satellite imagery it is very difficult to hide changes made to a wetland if work is done without a required permit. Not trying to be a downer, but it is MUCH cheaper to do things legal than pay the fines if caught doing work in a wetland illegally.
Yeeep, unfortunately the greens have gotten the laws to where Death Valley can be classified as a wetland. Check the legalities before doing anything, probably even before driving (or even walking) back there.
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:49 AM   #18
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

How large of a swampy area are you crossing?
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Old 07-25-2012, 05:49 AM   #19
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

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A wetland is defined as an area which supports wetland vegetation and has water within one foot of the soil surface for at least two weeks during the growing season. Whether a wetland is regulated, and a permit is required, depends on the laws which apply to your area. In most of the country the Corps of Engineers handles wetland permitting, but many places may have state or local laws which apply. With modern satellite imagery it is very difficult to hide changes made to a wetland if work is done without a required permit. Not trying to be a downer, but it is MUCH cheaper to do things legal than pay the fines if caught doing work in a wetland illegally.

Thanks. When I built my garage I had to pay $650.00 to have part of my yard denoted as a "critical area" because of a seasonal stream that passes though.

The county where I will conducting this project is logging country. Their approach to permitting for things like roads is non-existent. I already spoke with the county and they validated that I did not need a permit or review based on current site conditions.

Out houses aren't even close to legal in the county where I live but they are legal in the area where I will be doing this work.
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Old 07-25-2012, 06:05 AM   #20
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Default Re: Building a driveway through swampy ground. Is underlayment worth it?

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How large of a swampy area are you crossing?
Not sure what you mean by this. It's in high a rainfall area. The substrate is glacial till that does not allow the water to penetrate any deeper than 3 feet or so. The substrate is also uneven so there are dry spots and low spots intermixed throughout the proposed route.
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