Welcome to the The Garage Journal Board forums.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.

Go Back   The Garage Journal Board > The Tools > Fabrication & Techniques

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-16-2012, 12:35 PM   #1
1SlowFormula
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Linn, Oregon
Posts: 195
Default What welder for a car hobbyist

OK, I know this has been covered many times, and I have been researching for litterally years, but I am planning on laying down the money soon and want to be sure I get the right welder.

I am a hobbiest, so don't need anything industrial (at least I don't think). I am still learning to weld, I had a small 80 amp 115v mig/flux core campbell hausfeld welder in the past that I was able teach myself on, but no longer have that welder.

Here are the different type of projects I plan on using it for:
  • Sheetmetal (body panel replacement and so on)
  • Tables and workbenches, normal garage cool stuff with square tube and angle
  • Plate materials in roughly the 3/16" - 1/4" thickness range, truck bumper type fab work
  • Welding tabs and mounts to axle tubes
  • Aluminum welding would be a plus, but not sure how often I would weld it.

A local ex-welder now working in the welding section of a local farm store, has been trying to sell me on a hobart 140 saying it can do what I want and for the thicker stuff like the 1/4" plate I would just run multiple passes. he says it is the best priced, best bang for the buck and all a hobbiest would really even need. I have been thinking something like the hobart 210 MVP, or maybe just the 190 would be good because they both can run a spool gun for aluminum. I like the 210MVP because if I needed to weld something thin in a area where I only had 110v it would still work, right?

Now, am I even going down the right path? I am not 100% sold on Hobart welders, they just happen to be at the store right around the corner from me and the ones I have talked to salesmen about the most, any oppinions on what else I should look into?
__________________
1915 basket case of a house with a detached 24X36 garage/shop that needs work too...

Last edited by 1SlowFormula; 10-16-2012 at 01:13 PM.
1SlowFormula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 12:41 PM   #2
03protege
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2,320
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbiest

I will be buying the 210 MVP in the next month or so. Yes it works on 110/120v or 230/240v.

For me majority of my work will be using the 110v, but it is nice to have that extra overhead. I figure for the difference in price it would be silly to get a smaller unit and when the time comes have to purchase a larger one.
03protege is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-16-2012, 01:16 PM   #3
383 240z
Senior Member
 
383 240z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: 40miles north of Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,279
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbiest

I was in your same situation, doing above hobby level auto restoration. Also a bit of frame work, and general repair on farm equipment. I picked up a Hobart HH187 and I LOVE it. I was told by my loving wife, buy what ever one you want, I don't want to hear any bitching about cheaping out and getting the wrong machine. I would buy it again in a heartbeat. However the HH187 is being phased out, might be complete at this point. New model number is HH190, pretty much the same machine but has spool gun controls!!! Consumables are easy to find, and it will hold a large wire spool. I can't say how happy I am with that machine. Keith
383 240z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 01:24 PM   #4
Capstone
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 95
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbiest

I think the best bang for your buck with the overall best value and solution for exactly the kind of work you are planning is this set up right here...

Eastwood MIG 135 and Plasma Combo Now if you're planning to weld aluminum or stainless, you'll need to get a MIG175/Plasma combo with a spool handgun, and frankly, if you have the right breakers/circuits to support 220v, then it's an even better deal.

I have the MIG135 and VersaCut, purchased separately. Only wish I had got them together.

As a hobbyist, I am a big proponent of only spending as much as is warranted and like you, I spent a lot of time researching. I'm a happy customer. Here's the welding cart thread showing how I built this cart using these two machines as my testimonial. Good Luck

Last edited by Capstone; 10-16-2012 at 01:28 PM.
Capstone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 01:34 PM   #5
antinym
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 241
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbiest

I have the HH 187 too. Works great, and is probably all you need. I suggest the HH 190. It's a 187 with a spool gun. 240v only, though.
antinym is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 01:57 PM   #6
b-body-bob
Senior Member
 
b-body-bob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Almost Heaven
Posts: 1,495
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbiest

I've got a Lincoln 140 and it works great for sheet metal but I wouldn't trust it to burn in a good weld in 1/4". If I ever end up replacing it I'd go dual voltage so I could weld thicker materials, and also be able to plug it in to a 110 wall socket.
__________________
Remember, I'm pulling for you. We're all in this together. - Red Green
b-body-bob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 02:29 PM   #7
regguy1
Senior Member
 
regguy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: On Mount Olympus with Zeus
Posts: 3,237
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbiest

Hobarts are great welders. I have a 140 and like it. The decision between the 140 and 187 might be if you need to have a more portable unit with the 115 volt 140. I used mine to weld porch railings at a rental house, couldn't have done it with a 220 volt unit.
__________________
Check out the inside of the garage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZIhuocG2ig
regguy1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 02:44 PM   #8
Kevin54
Senior Member
 
Kevin54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,695
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbiest

Like triple B, I have a Lincoln 135 and no way would I trust it for any real heavy work other than sheetmetal. 1/8" -3/16" and 3/16" would be pushing it. If you're gonna buy, go bigger and look for a 220 unit over a 110.
Kevin54 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 02:46 PM   #9
Journaler
Senior Member
 
Journaler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 532
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbiest

If you can afford it, a Hobart 210 MVP would be a good choice given your needs.
Journaler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 02:57 PM   #10
my58
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ventura County California
Posts: 199
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbiest

If you plan on really using the welder for years to come I would tell you the money invested on a Millermatic 211 would be well spent.

It is 110 or 220, It has settings to make it easy for a begginer or occasional user, you can control the settings manually once you become more skilled. It holds its value well and is a great machine. Its at the top of the hobbiest scale but to me, well worth the money spent.
my58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 03:08 PM   #11
MFGENG
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 61
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbiest

I have the diversion 180 and love it. That said, if I were to get a mig, it would be the 211.

Being able to use 120v or 220v is a great thing to have.
MFGENG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 03:28 PM   #12
volaredon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: IL
Posts: 1,225
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

About 15 years ago I was in the same scenario. I had bought an Astro brand machine; it was labled as a "Mac Tools" unit but it was an Astro; a machine I coulda bought new for like $350 direct from Astro, but not knowing any better I bought used off the tool truck for $650.. promptly burnt it up. I then bought a similar one from another tool truck same result. this was in the days before the Lincoln and hobart ones were so prevalent.
I then bought a lil (not much) bigger "Century" brand one (which I heard was a lower cost brand of Lincoln) and burnt that one up as well. this one I had gotten for a much more reasonable price a Grandpa had bought it for his grandsons that were taking wekding at the local college he thought they could "practice" with it; this thing had been used like twice (and it looked it) it put up a much better fight but it too burnt up.
then I had gotten a "bonus" from my job (1st time ever) and had been checking out the ones on the tool trucks; The ones from Snapon were then being made by some outfit I had not heard of; Mac's were Millers that were pained red instead of Blue... and were 2X+ the cost of the equivalent "real" Miller unit at the welding supply house. So I went and bought a new Millermatic 185. In that series there were 4 units a 135 (like the Hobart 140) a 175 (a lil bigger and 220 powered) a 185 (much bigger and on wheels) and a 250. I bought the 185 model which now a days is their "210" I paid liek $1100 for it and have never had an issue in 15 years! Add what I paid for the 1st 3 up and that was significantly more. basically should have bought my miller and had money left instead of buying the 1st 3 that i'd had.

Hobart and Miller are the same company for at least the last 15-20 years maybe more. Both are very old well known names in welding. lincoln is another well known long standing name in welders.

My point is 2 fold. 1) Buy something from one of these well known WELDING EQUIPMENT companies avoid C-H and HF type crap. and 2) buy something the next machine up from what you think you will need for that "one day" that you are doing a bigger project in terms of both scope and metal thickness; you can always dial a bigger unit down but can never get more out of a machine than it was made for. Another advantage is a bigger machine will have a much longer duty cycle so will withstand heavier use at the same amperage much less likely to suffer burn out.

When I got mine I was using it almost constantly. I don't use it as often these days but when I do turn it on it seems I can't put it down for alot longer than I originally thought; I think I just need a couple tacks but then whether the neighbors see the blue flash from teh garage and "Ohh I didnt know you can weld/ can you just fix_______?" and the constant project that inevitably turns out much larger than anticipated... I get caught up in the "as long as I have it apart for "______" I might as well do" _______" while I am at it

Check out CL and local classifieds do not be afraid of something used... but know when to walk away from a POS too.
volaredon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 03:56 PM   #13
A**holes Garage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: AZ
Posts: 518
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Lincoln 140 from Home Depot will work fine.
A**holes Garage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 04:05 PM   #14
oldmerc
Member
 
oldmerc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Edmonton , Alberta
Posts: 79
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I have a Hobart HH190 . For the price Its hard to beat .
oldmerc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 04:12 PM   #15
Gamble
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: CHITOWN
Posts: 289
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

So you want to stick with a MIG I am guessing?
I have the hobart 140 and I love it. It's rated at 1/4" but that's with flux core. Not saying you can't do it with gas and some preheat and a bevel.
I will say if you want a spool gun the hobart would be a bad choice based on price alone, it's not cheap!
Not sure what everyone else has for spool guns but I know the eastwood units can use the spool gun and are only $200. The lincoln spool guns are around the same price.
__________________
Longevity 200ex
Thermal Arc 186 AC/DC
Tweco 141i
Longevity ProMTS200
Longevity ForceCut 62i
Gamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 04:25 PM   #16
GeorgiaHybrid
Senior Member
 
GeorgiaHybrid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Extreme NW Georgia
Posts: 3,763
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Another vote for a Miller 211 here. It can be used on 120 or 240 volt, uses gas or flux core, can have a spool gun added for aluminum, is fairly small and light weight but still has a decent duty cycle.
GeorgiaHybrid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 04:29 PM   #17
1SlowFormula
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Linn, Oregon
Posts: 195
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamble View Post
So you want to stick with a MIG I am guessing?
I have the hobart 140 and I love it. It's rated at 1/4" but that's with flux core. Not saying you can't do it with gas and some preheat and a bevel.
I will say if you want a spool gun the hobart would be a bad choice based on price alone, it's not cheap!
Not sure what everyone else has for spool guns but I know the eastwood units can use the spool gun and are only $200. The lincoln spool guns are around the same price.
Really, I have seen sales with the Hobart welders when they throw in the spool gun for about $100ish more than the normal price of the welder, and I find the spoolgun seperatly in the $200 dollar range. I was looking into the eastwood stuff after reading the recomendation above, however I like the mutiple voltage of teh hobart 210MVP and the miller 211, buth the price if the miller might be a little high...
__________________
1915 basket case of a house with a detached 24X36 garage/shop that needs work too...
1SlowFormula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 04:42 PM   #18
Gamble
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: CHITOWN
Posts: 289
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

If you can find a spool gun for a hobart 140 link me please. Seems they have different spool guns for different mig models.
These are over $400
http://store.cyberweld.com/ho30spgun30.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spool-Gun-f-...item20b525aa26
__________________
Longevity 200ex
Thermal Arc 186 AC/DC
Tweco 141i
Longevity ProMTS200
Longevity ForceCut 62i
Gamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 04:52 PM   #19
1SlowFormula
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Linn, Oregon
Posts: 195
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamble View Post
If you can find a spool gun for a hobart 140 link me please. Seems they have different spool guns for different mig models.
These are over $400
http://store.cyberweld.com/ho30spgun30.html
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spool-Gun-f-...item20b525aa26
You're right the 140 doesn't have a spoolgun, at least not that I have noticed in my searching. I was refering to the hobart 210 MVP or even the 190 they both use the same spoolgun. and I have seen the 210 MVP on sale with the spoolgun for around $900 before...


For all the guys recommending the Miller 211, is it really worth the extra $350-400 over the hobart 210MVP? They are both made by the same company right? At least that was what I heard Hobart and Miller were the same, and both are multi-voltage, but it looks like the Miller has the auto set that the Hobart doesn't...
__________________
1915 basket case of a house with a detached 24X36 garage/shop that needs work too...
1SlowFormula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 05:16 PM   #20
Gamble
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: CHITOWN
Posts: 289
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I hear auto set is awesome!
__________________
Longevity 200ex
Thermal Arc 186 AC/DC
Tweco 141i
Longevity ProMTS200
Longevity ForceCut 62i
Gamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 05:39 PM   #21
SlappyWhite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 541
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I have the Lincoln 140 amp it does pretty much all you will likely need unless you are building a cage or making major chassis modifications. I am very happy with the machine. A spool gun can also be added for aluminum. Welding thicker material requires more skill/technique with a small welder, using flux core for this also helps.

The Miller is also a good choice (better...), the dual voltage ones really intrigue me now and I may have went that way back when I bought mine. Seems like the best of both worlds (110v portability with 220v power) IF it was in my home price point.
SlappyWhite is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 07:37 PM   #22
BD1
Senior Member
 
BD1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2,157
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaHybrid View Post
Another vote for a Miller 211 here. It can be used on 120 or 240 volt, uses gas or flux core, can have a spool gun added for aluminum, is fairly small and light weight but still has a decent duty cycle.
YEP, 211. Stick with the REAL MACHINES, Miller ,Lincoln, or Hobart. Do it once and you will be happier. The larger capacity machine will give you a better duty cycle on the thinner material thickness.
BD1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-16-2012, 07:47 PM   #23
StumpXJ
Senior Member
 
StumpXJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Decatur, Georgia
Posts: 485
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Hobart Handler 187/190 FTW. I have run a couple hundred pounds of wire through mine now (thats a LOT more than the average occasional at home welding jobs) with ZERO issues. If it broke tomorrow, I would go buy another exactly like it.

~ Stump
__________________
Quote:
Let's stop reducing complex global economic relationships into simplistic Wheaties-pissing and just talk about tools, ok? - Bull
StumpXJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 07:51 PM   #24
sberry
Senior Member
 
sberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Brethren, Michigan
Posts: 10,907
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Yes, a compact 230V mig is the ticket, they have toe OP's picture up on the wall as a poster child when they designed this class of machine. HH190 would be on my short list. I wouldn't care about running it on 120V
sberry is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 08:10 PM   #25
pst496
Alliance Member
 
pst496's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: near St. Louis, MO
Posts: 66
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I am a miller man. i have a 212 at the shop and a dinisty (that can't be spelled right) tig. I have a 180 auto set at the house. love them. That said, i would never knock a hobart, many of my fab friends use them. I would only suggest is that you get something that will run on 220v. I think your penitration will be better on the thicker brackets and bumpers and frame work you have in your future
pst496 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 08:13 PM   #26
Rhino43
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Mt City, Montana
Posts: 7
Thumbs up Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I bought the Hobart 140 a year ago and have been very happy with it. I also got a bottle for it and its been a great welder.Very simple to use.
Rhino43 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2012, 08:53 PM   #27
KenS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 662
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

A quick note: You can easily convert several of the Hobart Handler series welders for a spoolgun with the spoolgun conversion kit here...

The catch is the cost of the spoolgun: Hobart DP3035 Spoolgun.

You can watch the conversion here: Hobart Handler Spool Gun Conversion Kit Installation Video.
KenS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 07:36 AM   #28
Gamble
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: CHITOWN
Posts: 289
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

^^For what it costs, I'll buy an eastwood or longevity welder with spool gun for $500 and keep it setup that way. And keep my hobart with the mig gun on it.
__________________
Longevity 200ex
Thermal Arc 186 AC/DC
Tweco 141i
Longevity ProMTS200
Longevity ForceCut 62i
Gamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 08:58 AM   #29
loranger
Senior Member
 
loranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 397
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I have a Miller 210 and I love it. I have welded all kinds of stuff on my suspension and it has not missed a beat. I bought it used for a decent price. The only welder I would trade it for is a 211 for the dual voltage setting and smaller size. Being just for home use, I really dont need the duty cycle of the full size welder.

loranger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 10:31 AM   #30
Aeroman
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 86
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Millermatic 220V is the perfect tool. Can go thin or thick and welds butter smooth beads. Good luck
Aeroman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 10:45 AM   #31
1SlowFormula
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Linn, Oregon
Posts: 195
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

OK, I think you guys have convinced me to look more into the miller 211.

Like some said getting the better tool and paying more once is better than getting a few other machines before you get the "right" one and end up payign more int eh long run. I like the multiple voltage machine since my garage only has 110v right now and I use my generator for any 220v items. The generator has run a couple "good" 220v welders in the past at the race track when people needed to make pit repairs and borowed my generator for power. But, if I get a multi-votage unit I don't have to worry about running the generator the whole time I want to weld something small, I can use the 110 voltage for the small stuff then break out the generator if I wanted to weld thicker stuff, untill I get the 100 amp panel in the garage that is on my short list of projects, lol...
__________________
1915 basket case of a house with a detached 24X36 garage/shop that needs work too...
1SlowFormula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 11:50 AM   #32
tearlessj
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 33
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I went with the 210MVP. All my buddies have the 140, just wanted to make sure I had the right machine for the right job down the line.
tearlessj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 12:34 PM   #33
Journaler
Senior Member
 
Journaler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 532
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SlowFormula View Post
OK, I think you guys have convinced me to look more into the miller 211.

Like some said getting the better tool and paying more once is better than getting a few other machines before you get the "right" one and end up payign more int eh long run. I like the multiple voltage machine since my garage only has 110v right now and I use my generator for any 220v items. The generator has run a couple "good" 220v welders in the past at the race track when people needed to make pit repairs and borowed my generator for power. But, if I get a multi-votage unit I don't have to worry about running the generator the whole time I want to weld something small, I can use the 110 voltage for the small stuff then break out the generator if I wanted to weld thicker stuff, untill I get the 100 amp panel in the garage that is on my short list of projects, lol...
Unless you happen to like the color blue, there's not much difference between a Hobart 210 and a Miller 211 except voltage taps, auto-set, and $.
Journaler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 01:52 PM   #34
buening
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 1,203
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Doesn't the Miller have infinite voltage adjustment whereas the Hobart has just a few preset voltage settings? I used my neighbor's Hobart 140 and it only had 4 voltage settings (1-4), and found it difficult to fine tune for the different thickness materials I was using. I was used to a Miller 251 with the electronic voltage displays and the ability to change voltage in smaller increments. Something to think about.
__________________
1970 Mach 1
1970 Mustang Fastback
2003 Mustang
2005 F150 FX4

Licensed Professional Engineer, PE (Civil)
Licensed Structural Engineer, SE
buening is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 02:32 PM   #35
78Bird
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 492
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Yes, the Hobart uses voltage taps v/s the Miller infinite voltage. That and the autoset are the real difference between them.

Both can run on 110/220 and run a spoolgun.

For serious hoby work, and not being a total MIG noob, the savings of the Hobart might be worth it. It's still a top quality rig, and should serve well for decades.

that 211 is damn sexy though
78Bird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 02:34 PM   #36
1SlowFormula
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Linn, Oregon
Posts: 195
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Journaler View Post
Unless you happen to like the color blue, there's not much difference between a Hobart 210 and a Miller 211 except voltage taps, auto-set, and $.
I agree, that was my question earlier, was the miller worth the extra money over the hobart since they are supposed to be both made by the same company and both quality brand names, other than that the auto-set might help since I am still a new welder. What are your thoughts worth it or not?

So far I am up in the air of the Hobart HH210MVP and the Miller 211, I was pretty sold on the HH210MVP but after researching the Miller 211 and the auto-set, and that I could find new Miller 211's for a little over $1000, the price of the Miller over the Hobart isn't as much, I was thinking just spend the little more for the Miller...
__________________
1915 basket case of a house with a detached 24X36 garage/shop that needs work too...
1SlowFormula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 03:09 PM   #37
1SlowFormula
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Linn, Oregon
Posts: 195
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

OK, in my research I got a hold of a tech from Hobart and asked the question, of what's the differenced if they are made by the same company, this is what I was told
Quote:
The Hobart Handler 210 is designed and manufactured by Hobart Welding Products.

The relationship between Hobart Welding Products and Miller Electric is that we're both owned by ITW. Illinois Tool Works (ITW) purchased Miller in 1992 and then purchased Hobart in 1996. Both are owned by the same parent company. The engineering and manufacturing facility for Hobart Welding Products is located in Troy, Ohio and the engineering and manufacturing facilities for Miller Electric are located in Appleton, Wisconsin.
So I guess the statement that tehy are made by the same company is only partially correct.
__________________
1915 basket case of a house with a detached 24X36 garage/shop that needs work too...
1SlowFormula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 03:43 PM   #38
my58
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ventura County California
Posts: 199
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Another thing you may want to consider with the Millermatic 211 is if you have kids or nephews and neices that may someday be using the welder.

It sounds like you have a good understanding of welding and I am sure whatever you purchase will be great, However if any newbies will be starting out the Autoset is worth every dime.

Its also nice to have the infinite controll settings once you are a bit more skilled.
my58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 08:48 PM   #39
volaredon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: IL
Posts: 1,225
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Quote:
Originally Posted by loranger View Post
I have a Miller 210 and I love it. I have welded all kinds of stuff on my suspension and it has not missed a beat. I bought it used for a decent price. The only welder I would trade it for is a 211 for the dual voltage setting and smaller size. Being just for home use, I really dont need the duty cycle of the full size welder.

that is the exact same machine I have it just used to be called a "Millermatic 185" they have upgraded it.. the cabinet on mine is exact same size

on the spoolgun I would be interested in finding one to fit my machine was manuf in 1997 (and when ai bought it brand new)
volaredon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 08:55 PM   #40
uhohjim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Crete Illinois
Posts: 127
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I've got a Millermatic 180 .with a spoolgun.......works awesome for anything I've neede it for ........Jim
uhohjim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 09:41 PM   #41
1SlowFormula
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Linn, Oregon
Posts: 195
Default

well I got a quote from my local welding supply house for the Miller 211 and it was pretty reasonable, I will probably just get the Miller, they also told me the feed wheels on the Miller was metal vs plastic on the Hobart...


Posted from Garagejournal.com App for Android
__________________
1915 basket case of a house with a detached 24X36 garage/shop that needs work too...
1SlowFormula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2012, 10:13 PM   #42
GeorgiaHybrid
Senior Member
 
GeorgiaHybrid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Extreme NW Georgia
Posts: 3,763
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SlowFormula View Post
well I got a quote from my local welding supply house for the Miller 211 and it was pretty reasonable, I will probably just get the Miller, they also told me the feed wheels on the Miller was metal vs plastic on the Hobart...


Posted from Garagejournal.com App for Android
You will love that little machine. Mine has been on the road and used with flux core on a 120v circuit as well as cranking out multi pass welds on 3/4" and up plate with gas on 240v in the shop. Great machine that is very reasonable in cost
GeorgiaHybrid is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 10-19-2012, 06:34 PM   #43
kald
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central Fl
Posts: 593
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

What about a Thermal Arc 211i? Mig, Tig and Stick. I don't have one but based on what I've read it would be on my short list if the had the spare coin.
kald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2012, 04:01 PM   #44
Bobhdus
Senior Member
 
Bobhdus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Missouri
Posts: 195
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I have had a HTP120 for years and it welds fine for doing metal 3/16" and thinner. That's running .023 wire with C25 gas. I say this so you know that you can do a lot with something small and if you know how to weld. I put my money into my GTAW/ SMAW machines. Personally, if I were to buy another GMAW machine I would do like everyone else and buy the next size up from want you think you want (175 or higher). I like my mini because it's 120v. Never kicked out on me yet and I have used the hell out of it (check out my photo album). Make sure you can get the aluminum spool gun as well. Once people start seeing you weld and you find ways to make money or build your projects with your machine your going to be glad you got the better welder.
Bobhdus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2012, 07:33 PM   #45
24rascal
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I have the Miller 211 and love it. You can't go wrong with this unit, it's a great unit for a hobbyist, even if a little pricey. It will weld everything stated in your original post without issue. You can get a spool gun for aluminum later if you decide you need to. The Thermal Arc 211i mentioned earlier looks very interesting, but I have no actual experience with one. The ability to tig weld interests me quite a bit, but I don't think this model will tig weld aluminum. Good luck with whatever you decide.
24rascal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2012, 08:49 PM   #46
geologist
Senior Member
 
geologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 5,173
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I have a Lincoln Pro-Core 100 and it gives a lot of 140s a run for their money. One thing to consider is the duty cycle of the welder you're buying. Also, it's nice to be able to take this welder wherever I need to go without being constrained by needing a mega-breaker.
__________________
Speak the truth, even if your voice shakes.
geologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2012, 09:29 AM   #47
A**holes Garage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: AZ
Posts: 518
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Quote:
Originally Posted by geologist View Post
I have a Lincoln Pro-Core 100 and it gives a lot of 140s a run for their money. One thing to consider is the duty cycle of the welder you're buying. Also, it's nice to be able to take this welder wherever I need to go without being constrained by needing a mega-breaker.


I have a Lincoln 100, works fine for thin steel and 15 amp circuits. Very portable and great for small jobs around the house.

I also have a Lincoln 140 and it's still 115 vac but needs a 20 amp circuit.
A**holes Garage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2012, 09:35 AM   #48
goodysgotacuda
Senior Member
 
goodysgotacuda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: North DFW
Posts: 178
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I use the 170a Harbor Freight mig for working on Jeeps. 220v, $170 on sale...I absolutely got my money's worth of it. I've burned trusses in with it, cages, etc, never got the machine hot. It hasn't given me a reason to think it's getting tired.
goodysgotacuda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2012, 06:09 PM   #49
Debriefer
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 36
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I have a Miller 211 and have run about 5lb worth of wire through it since July. I intend to buy a spool gun for it, and perhaps get a tattoo of it on my arm as well
Debriefer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2012, 06:36 PM   #50
03protege
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2,320
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Quote:
Originally Posted by kald View Post
What about a Thermal Arc 211i? Mig, Tig and Stick. I don't have one but based on what I've read it would be on my short list if the had the spare coin.
China is what is wrong with it. Being able to do Tig is awesome, but keep in mind it is only DC current so you are not going to be tig'n aluminum only SS.

The guy at my welding place tried to push this on me when I inquired about Hobart (they carry Miller no Hobart) It was more expensive than the comparable Hobart 210mvp and is only 240V.

I recently picked up a Millermatic 140 because it was cheap and if I need to do some bigger stuff in the near future I will get a Lincoln Tombstone.
03protege is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2012, 06:54 PM   #51
kald
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central Fl
Posts: 593
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Quote:
Originally Posted by 03protege View Post
China is what is wrong with it. Being able to do Tig is awesome, but keep in mind it is only DC current so you are not going to be tig'n aluminum only SS.

The guy at my welding place tried to push this on me when I inquired about Hobart (they carry Miller no Hobart) It was more expensive than the comparable Hobart 210mvp and is only 240V.

I recently picked up a Millermatic 140 because it was cheap and if I need to do some bigger stuff in the near future I will get a Lincoln Tombstone.
Steel and SS. It's also 120v & 220v. Your correct about China though, it's a shame Miller or Lincoln don't have a similar machine.

Last edited by kald; 10-25-2012 at 06:59 PM.
kald is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2012, 01:04 PM   #52
milner351
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 173
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I had a used Lincoln SP200 for years, it didn't like .023 wire on thinner materials, I usually buy used equipment, but this time I splurged and got a Miller 180 auto set.

This machine has made me a better weldor - it works much better on the thinner materials than the Lincoln.

I was told by the Miller folks that the only difference between the 180 and the 210 was the 110/220 voltage input - I have 220 available so that was not a concern for me, I saved a bit and got the 180 - The best deal I found was on Ebay - $842 to my door.

Shop around for bottle gas - I was surprised at the differences in prices between local suppliers.
milner351 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-27-2012, 11:15 PM   #53
brownbagg
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: grand bay
Posts: 2,155
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

i got a miller 130 mig, miller 180 tig and lincoln 225 dc. the miller 130 sucks, nothing wrong with the machine just too small do anything but thin sheet metal. On a mig 200 or better.

hobart and miller are two different companys but own by same people. both are good machine and good companyies. hobart has one of the best welding schools around
brownbagg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 07:50 PM   #54
ed_v
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Kentucky and sometimes Chicago
Posts: 1,013
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Check out an Esab CaddyMig C160i. It is a 220v/160 amp output model. It actually has more output than rated. They normally sell for around $800 but if you watch on ebay there is a seller than bought about 100 of these from Esab and sells them for $469. Sometimes the listing ends and it takes them a few days to relisted them. Esab makes great welders.

Ed
__________________
I'm too drunk to taste this chicken - Col. Sanders
ed_v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2012, 09:16 PM   #55
jomobco
Senior Member
 
jomobco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 306
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobhdus View Post
I have had a HTP120 for years and it welds fine for doing metal 3/16" and thinner. That's running .023 wire with C25 gas. I say this so you know that you can do a lot with something small and if you know how to weld. I put my money into my GTAW/ SMAW machines. Personally, if I were to buy another GMAW machine I would do like everyone else and buy the next size up from want you think you want (175 or higher). I like my mini because it's 120v. Never kicked out on me yet and I have used the hell out of it (check out my photo album). Make sure you can get the aluminum spool gun as well. Once people start seeing you weld and you find ways to make money or build your projects with your machine your going to be glad you got the better welder.
I've had an HTP Mig 200 for years. Great welder and a great value. Their plasma cutters are fantastic as well.
__________________
Cheers,
John

Shop Build Pics in profile
jomobco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2012, 12:09 AM   #56
Dinorx7
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 9
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Watch Craigslist got a miller180 for $300
Dinorx7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2012, 06:34 PM   #57
theknurl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: SoCal
Posts: 819
Send a message via Skype™ to theknurl
Thumbs up Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

1SlowFormula;
I've been welding for a long time......
buy the best/biggest machine your pocket can stand.....and 220V too

in '75 i wanted a TIG machine, Jack Sanderson advised me to get a Lincoln IdealArc 300/300.....(Lincoln wound Jack's machines to HIS specs)

still got it......i production welded aluminum with it for 20+ years(FMF motocross stuff)....had a young lady prepping parts for me.....

failures?.....it used an O-ring in the water valve, thats it.....still has the original points too

with the 300/300 you have TIG covered including aluminum and stick too, many alloy rods are stick only

for car bodies MIG.....period

make sure the machine you get will do spot and stitch and take big spools

i traded 4 'T' size bottles for a new, on the pallet Lincoln SP-200

for a MIG machine get 'tip dip' and anti splatter spray.....also wire lube.....yes, it involves a piece of felt and a clothes pin
use C-25 or Stargon

go to a used machinery dealer, the 300/300 (old gray one with 5 ranges, not the newer red POS with 3) is ~$300-$500 with all the cables and the pedal..........go water cooled torch too, a WP-20 is big enough.....forget a gas lens......they just raise the costs and size of the torch

theknurl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2012, 10:04 AM   #58
cattleranchmarch
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 42
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I have used Miller 140 AutoSet, 180 Autoset, 210, 252, 251, 250x and a Lincoln 140C. If you get a Miller, Hobart, or a Lincoln you will be fine as long as the Lincoln isn't a cheap one from Home Depot or Lowes. I personally liked the Lincoln better than the Miller but Miller makes a really nice welder. From the sounds of it a Hobart 210 mvp or a Miller 211 would fit your ticket. Autoset was nice before I learned how to dial your arc and wire speed in good; now I don't use autoset because it isn't as flexible.
cattleranchmarch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2012, 04:07 PM   #59
tomshep
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 351
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Did you buy yet?

I learned in shop class on a large MIG, no idea the brand (maybe Sun) 30 years ago.

Went the cheap route and bought a HF in the 90s and the thing blew holes in everything unless it was 1/4". Then they were bad ass welds. A buddy ended up with it and it never came back. That didn't break my heart at all.

About 10 years ago I need a welder again and bought one of those little 110 Lincoln units so I could plug it into the wall. It uses flux wire. Didn't really care for it and didn't have much power.

About 5 years ago I ran across a Miller 110 with very few hours on it. Bought it with two tanks and a spool gun. Couldn't have been better money spent. It holds a large spool and runs on 220 so it has plenty of guts.

I would go Miller again but Hobart is also good.

Tom
tomshep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 11:03 AM   #60
1SlowFormula
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Linn, Oregon
Posts: 195
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

no I have nto bought it yet, I have talked to a local welding supply house and they can cut me a decent price on the Miller 211, I have been dropping hints to my wife that this is what I want for X-mas. We were at the local farm store last week with her father and this whole conversation aroud welders came up when I was in the isle looking over the Hobarts they had on sale, he apearantly just bought a reconditioned Lincoln and preferes Lincolns and was wondering the quality of the Hobarts I was lookign at and I relayed as much info as I could recall from this thread trying to point my wife in the direction of the Miller 211, but we'll see what she decides to do. If she doesn't get it, or allow me to get it, for X-mas I guess I will have to wait till after the holidays as spending that much money on non-holiday stuff right before the holidays would get me in deep trouble, lol...
__________________
1915 basket case of a house with a detached 24X36 garage/shop that needs work too...
1SlowFormula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2012, 05:14 PM   #61
bgarrett
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,335
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

What gasoline powered welder is good for a car hobbyist?
I dont want a wire welder but do want to TIG and stick weld.
bgarrett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 09:50 AM   #62
JerryC
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Memphis TN
Posts: 50
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1SlowFormula View Post
no I have nto bought it yet, I have talked to a local welding supply house and they can cut me a decent price on the Miller 211, I have been dropping hints to my wife that this is what I want for X-mas. We were at the local farm store last week with her father and this whole conversation aroud welders came up when I was in the isle looking over the Hobarts they had on sale, he apearantly just bought a reconditioned Lincoln and preferes Lincolns and was wondering the quality of the Hobarts I was lookign at and I relayed as much info as I could recall from this thread trying to point my wife in the direction of the Miller 211, but we'll see what she decides to do. If she doesn't get it, or allow me to get it, for X-mas I guess I will have to wait till after the holidays as spending that much money on non-holiday stuff right before the holidays would get me in deep trouble, lol...
Reading your posts sounds familiar to my situation. "paralysis by analysis" was my problem.

In my case, learning Mig is just something on my list of things I want to learn, did O/A ~30 years ago in school and for a couple years after.
I was going to go cheap but the wife said "don't buy some piece of crap that you will replace later" so suddenly I'm looking at machines $600 and up. As the idea developed I came to the decision that I might want/need to weld 3/8or maybe bigger (targets for the range as an example).

So I progressed through the Hobart line 130, 140, 210, and the Lincoln 140, 180, 180 dual, TA 211i and finally the Miller 211. Briefly checked 230 only machines, but decided I like the idea of taking my portable ~80lb machine with me if need be.

After about six weeks of this, I ordered the M211 and it arrives today in a brown truck.

Reason for the M211 vs:
Hobart 210: best price for M211 only ~$140 more, metal wire feed, auto set and infinite settings. Seems odd to list two seemingly opposite features as good (auto set vs infinite).
Lincoln 180/Dual: 30 more amps... price too close to matter.
TA 211i: this welder looks really good for the money but it has a short history as it is a new product. If this had 3 years of service history to look at it might have been this machine over the Miller.

It's for and the wife wont let me use it until then.
JerryC is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)
Old 12-05-2012, 09:52 AM   #63
.mike.
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 33
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

140 if you are anal about prep work. 180 if you are a bit more lax.
.mike. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 09:38 PM   #64
Racecarl
Senior Member
 
Racecarl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: McCook, NE
Posts: 474
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

The thing to remember about buying a welder is that you can always turn down a big welder to weld thin material but you may not be able to turn up a small welder enough to weld thicker material.

Several years ago I bought a Miller 251 with a spoolgun from www.cyberweld.com and it has been one of the smartest tool purchases I have ever made. Cyberweld was having a promotion on this package since the 252 was about to be introduced, so I got a pretty good deal. I really didn't think I would use the spoolgun much, but I have make LOTS more money welding aluminum than I have welding steel. Switching from the spool gun to the MIG gun is easy--turn the machine on and hit the trigger of the gun you want to use. Aluminum is a real test of a welder--it takes a lot more energy to weld aluminum. I don't believe a MIG machine smaller than 180 amps would be capable of welding aluminum much over 1/8" thick.
Racecarl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 11:26 PM   #65
rmmiller
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Kennewick, WA
Posts: 251
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Great thread, really solidifies my choice in a future Miller 211. I just need to turn my back yard from dirt into an oasis then I can go buy one!
rmmiller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 05:04 PM   #66
JerryC
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Memphis TN
Posts: 50
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Santa finally let me open the Miller 211.

Here's my first four welds. 1/4" plate, ground off the mill scale, no bevel , not enough gap either I think. Welds 1 and 2 were .30 wire the machine came with, 75/25, 230v, and using auto-set. Welds 3-4 I cranked up the amps a touch (by moving the dial for thickness) with #4 being a push weld and the others were pulls. Second pic is the backside after weld 1 and 2.

Previously (30 yrs ago) I O/A welded, and recently a buddy let try his flux core mig, I'd say i had about 10 minutes gun time on the flux core. These welds look as good or better than anything I did on the flux core mig.

It's raining too hard for me to do anything else, so I'm going to go eat some apple pie
Attached Images
File Type: jpg first_welds-1-2.jpg (143.1 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg first_welds_backside.jpg (146.9 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg first_welds-3-4.jpg (102.0 KB, 51 views)
JerryC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 05:27 PM   #67
AMCguy
Senior Member
 
AMCguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sunshine Coast, BC Canada
Posts: 672
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I have an MillerMatic 200 and an EconoTig. I'll be adding a third any day now. It'll be a Miller 211. My son has one and it is a very forgiving, easy to use unit.
AMCguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 05:53 PM   #68
sberry
Senior Member
 
sberry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Brethren, Michigan
Posts: 10,907
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgarrett View Post
What gasoline powered welder is good for a car hobbyist?
I dont want a wire welder but do want to TIG and stick weld.
At the risk of sounding negative,,, this is about backwards as it gets.
sberry is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-25-2012, 11:29 PM   #69
mossyboy6
Senior Member
 
mossyboy6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA
Posts: 535
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

Quote:
Originally Posted by sberry View Post
At the risk of sounding negative,,, this is about backwards as it gets.
Maybe he was talking about bringing the welder with him in the car.

lol
mossyboy6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2012, 09:10 AM   #70
buening
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 1,203
Default Re: What welder for a car hobbyist

I finally found a gently used Lincoln Power Mig 255 at a reasonable price, so just waiting for the truck shipment to get to my house.
__________________
1970 Mach 1
1970 Mustang Fastback
2003 Mustang
2005 F150 FX4

Licensed Professional Engineer, PE (Civil)
Licensed Structural Engineer, SE
buening is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:51 AM.