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Old 03-19-2009, 04:07 PM   #1
Tscott
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Default Concrete wedge anchor vs. wet set anchor

I have had 3 quotes for concrete on my metal building. So far 2 guys said that wet setting the anchors was what they preferred, and the other said they preferred to drill after the concrete cured and use wedge anchors. The guy that wants to use wedge anchors says that it always seemed that no matter how well you positioned the wet set anchors in the templates, that one would probably get bumped during the poor and end up to far out of spec.

Is there a difference in performance? Which did you do and how did it work?

Tom

P.s. How much are wedge anchors compared to a "J" bolt type anchor?
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Old 03-19-2009, 04:54 PM   #2
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Default Re: Concrete wedge anchor vs. wet set anchor

I know alot of buildings a buddy has been working on spec epoxy in anchors.. you drill in then set them up with this collar and epoxy.
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Old 03-19-2009, 05:12 PM   #3
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Default Re: Concrete wedge anchor vs. wet set anchor

Tscott,

The wedge anchors will work to locate a column with a vertical shear load only. The problem with them is they have little resistance to tension loads (uplift on the building with the doors open) or to moment loads (rotation loading due to side sway or wind loads). You will rarely see them used in comercial or industrial applications because of this limitation. Parabolts (epoxy adhesive anchors) have almost the same limits as wedge anchors and carry the same warnings. A good anchor rod with a plate welded or bolted to the bottom, set into the footing, is the best way to go.

Don't use the old style anchor bolt with the "L" bend at the bottom if you live in an area with high winds or seismic activity. They have a problem in that they "straighten out" and pull out of the hole. The anchor rod with a plate will force the entire footing to fail (or a tensile failure of the bolt) before anything happens.

If done right using a setting template, wet set anchors will not shift and will not let you down. It takes more care to use them but you will be MUCH better off. The other contractor has probably had a mistake in the past where the bolts were shifted or the entire group were poured in the wrong place.
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Old 03-19-2009, 06:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: Concrete wedge anchor vs. wet set anchor

What size wedge anchors does he want to use (diameter and length)? And how many do you need to use?
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Old 03-20-2009, 07:29 AM   #5
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Default Re: Concrete wedge anchor vs. wet set anchor

The bolts in question are those anchoring the building to the foundation, and those anchoring the large door frames to the foundation.

The plans call for diameters of 1/2" (QTY 8) , 5/8" (QTY 28), 3/4" (QTY 16) and 7/8" (QTY 2). The lengths are not specified in the plans from the building manufacturer, all the plans say is that the bolts must be of sufficient strength to resist the reactions shown in the loading report. I have a 20" deep footer to set the bolts in so my plan was just to use the longest that would fit.

Tom
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Old 03-20-2009, 08:01 AM   #6
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Default Re: Concrete wedge anchor vs. wet set anchor

Tscott,

A wedge anchor will work fine for secondary framing. That would include the door jambs, sill angles, AC support frames and the like. Looking at your list above, the 1/2" bolts are probably the door frames. The main moment frames will use the larger bolts. Do the plans spec out a grade for the anchor rods? They should be something like "F1554-36 or F1554-55".

Either way, a 12" to 16" embedment should be plenty for your situation but have a local engineer take a quick gut check to make sure about the size, type and embedment required per your local codes. Give him the reactions shown on the charts and he should be able to verify everything that you are doing. Wind loading in Florida is a critical part of design and without a strong foundation, you could have problems later down the road.
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Old 03-20-2009, 11:59 AM   #7
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Default Re: Concrete wedge anchor vs. wet set anchor

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaHybrid View Post
Tscott,

A wedge anchor will work fine for secondary framing. That would include the door jambs, sill angles, AC support frames and the like. Looking at your list above, the 1/2" bolts are probably the door frames. The main moment frames will use the larger bolts. Do the plans spec out a grade for the anchor rods? They should be something like "F1554-36 or F1554-55".

Either way, a 12" to 16" embedment should be plenty for your situation but have a local engineer take a quick gut check to make sure about the size, type and embedment required per your local codes. Give him the reactions shown on the charts and he should be able to verify everything that you are doing. Wind loading in Florida is a critical part of design and without a strong foundation, you could have problems later down the road.


The plans do not specify a grade for the anchors. The minimum embedment depth per Florida building codes is 7" for "light construction", which is what I have been classified as. I just got back from a fastener store in the area, and they are checking on anchors in the sizes I need. They are looking into wet set anchors that have a nut and washer on the bottom to resist pull out. I think these will be a good choice instead of the wedge anchors or the "L" anchors. I will set them around 16" into the footer of the slab. My concrete man will just have to be careful when he pours.

Tom
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Old 03-20-2009, 01:51 PM   #8
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Default Re: Concrete wedge anchor vs. wet set anchor

Can you use any of the Simpson anchor straps?
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Old 03-20-2009, 02:16 PM   #9
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Default Re: Concrete wedge anchor vs. wet set anchor

I used expansion bolts for some framing on my house. This was on a 35 y/o structure with rotted sills. When I replaced I used anchors similar to these

Not those exactly, but like that with the expanding sleeve.

They were 1/2in and I think 6 inches long. 2 on every sill regardless of length, and atleast one every 6 feet.

Seem to be very strong...Can't imagine wind breaking or pulling those out. If you've got wind that strong..Your house is already gone..

Having said that, I would still go with the kind that set directly into the wet concrete, if its an option. But not to lose sleep over the expansion type unless you have major seismic activity, or this is going to be a huge structure, etc..

Last edited by Tom2; 03-20-2009 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 03-20-2009, 02:48 PM   #10
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Default Re: Concrete wedge anchor vs. wet set anchor

I'd be concerend with any kind of drilled in anchor on the edge of a slab, wedge anchors are good anchors though
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Old 03-20-2009, 03:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: Concrete wedge anchor vs. wet set anchor

Im not an Engineer (Yet... A few years left) but I can't imagine wedge anchors being better for anything other than cost and ease of installation when your talking about new construction. Like GeorgiaHybrid said, if you use anchor rods welded to a plate, it becomes a critical part of the foundation. If the bolts are going to break they would also break with the wedge anchors(or just pull them out) or worse yet, if you manage to rip the wet-set anchors out, you have bigger problems. . .
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Old 03-20-2009, 06:32 PM   #12
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Default Re: Concrete wedge anchor vs. wet set anchor

Tscott,

Your concrete man should use a template made from plywood with the correct bolt pattern drilled into it. Mark the column centerlines on the template and use them to align with your column lines. Place the bolts into the template and use a nut above and below the plywood to hold them while setting the bolts. Once the concrete is set, remove the top nut and take off the template. If you pour in stages, two or three templates will work by rotating them around as you pour.

Are you going to use grout under the column base plates? If yes, don't forget to add the grout thickness to the projection of the anchor bolts above the slab.
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Old 03-20-2009, 08:07 PM   #13
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Default Re: Concrete wedge anchor vs. wet set anchor

The wedge anchors are completely inappropriate for the main building framing IMHO.

Here's my anecdotal reason why. I once worked in an automotive (production) bodyshop with hundreds of spot welding robots in there. Only the epoxy (sometimes called "chemical") anchors would hold the robot base to the concrete. One could literally install 100 wedge anchors in the base plate and eventually they'd loosen up due to the dynamic loading that the robot applied to its base plate.

So...again IMHO...

Best = poured in place
Close second = epoxy
Distant third = wedge

Also...just to add...eventually I'll install a twin post lift in my shop...I could attempt to "pre engineer" and pour anchors to the manufacturer's layout print. However, in that case I will go with the chemical anchors, cuz I'll probably change my mind a few times after the shop is actually "working" and I see why the original idea was not good. Plus I'd have to work around the raised studs for a year or two...OW! I'll allow a large-enough thickened section of concrete to allow enough bearing and "grip" for the anchors and give some flexibility about where it can go.

Last edited by matt_isserstedt; 03-20-2009 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 03-20-2009, 08:17 PM   #14
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Default Re: Concrete wedge anchor vs. wet set anchor

Wet set is the best for retro fits that are not structural I like to use Hilti wedges and high tonnage epoxy.
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