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View Poll Results: If you were going to purchase a lift would it being certification matter?
yes - needs to be certified 87 63.50%
no - does not need to be certified 23 16.79%
don't care 27 19.71%
Voters: 137. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-15-2009, 11:47 AM   #1
Piper
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Question would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

All things considered, if you were going to buy a lift, would you buy certified, uncertified, or don't care?
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Old 09-15-2009, 01:21 PM   #2
mike944
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

I'll be the first one to say.....i like to keep my money, but money is no good if you're dead.

Not saying a non-certified lift would fail, but there are a LOT of poorly-engineered and poorly-built products of all kinds on the market today. When i'm standing under a multi-thousand pound vehicle, the last thing i need to worry about is whether the lift was designed and built correctly.
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Old 09-15-2009, 02:36 PM   #3
slicktoptt
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

I'm not standing under a lift that is not certified.
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Old 09-15-2009, 02:45 PM   #4
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

Not only that but if it ever failed on someone else where does the insurance kick in-it wont and you are left high and dry. It cost Ezzie a bit of money to get his certified but at least it is now safe and covered by insurance.
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Old 09-15-2009, 07:25 PM   #5
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

You'd think BBB would know and understand this....and I'm sure they do - they're just being stubborn and loosing sales becuase of it.

If they really cared about Americans - their workers and their customers - they'd get 'em certified.
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Old 09-15-2009, 07:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

Something can be well engineered without being certified. If I looked at and inspected a non-certified lift myself and thought it fine, I would definitely use it.
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Old 09-15-2009, 08:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

Yep I don't care. My lift would be for personal use only, everything I would lift is less that 5000lbs. I would use my judgment when I look at lift, not certified doesn't mean its junk.
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:40 PM   #8
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

After all the research I have done, I don't care. I wouldn't buy a poorly constructed lift, certified or not.
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:55 PM   #9
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

Any mechanical device can fail. What options do you have when a certified lift fails and pancakes you?
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Old 09-15-2009, 09:59 PM   #10
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

Do you like life?
How much could you save on an uncertified lift?
Go certified.
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Old 09-15-2009, 10:30 PM   #11
Chris Adams
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

I've seen some pretty bad stuff with every certification in the world, some fine custom stuff that would never be certified.

The certification process has very little to do with strength, reliability, etc. It has to do with providing documentation and using components whose manufacturers provided documentation.

Had a long discussion with a VP from a (the) major American aircraft manufacturer. He was very proud of the fact that his people could document and certify ever screw in every plane, and provide that documentation (paper trail) for the last 30 years, and the next.
When I pointed out several safety problems they had recently had, versus other, not so 'documented' aircraft, his answer summed it up.

"Maybe the (model plane) isn't as safe, but it is FULLY CERTIFIED."

When I asked if the families of the dead in the crash could draw benefit from that, he proudly explained they would. Then looked puzzled, and then got sorta angry...


This was at a social affair, so I dropped it and went on to let him tell me about the new 'motivate the children of helicopter parents' program he was very proud of.

Seems that after being coddled and flattered all their life they don't seem to be able to actually work, despite degrees in the field.
But heck, even if they can't do the job, they are certified...

I wouldn't use non-certified wire, non-proofmarked firearms, but my reloads are better than the 'certified' ammo in the boxes.

I asked my insurance company about insuring a 'non-certified lift' vs. a certified lift. After three days and a phone call they wanted to know if I would be using it commercially. I said no (I'm not) and they said, well, be sure it doesn't have bad wiring. That can start a fire.
I assured them it would be a portable lift, with a plug I would remove when it wasn't in use.
No problem insuring it. When I get it.
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Old 09-15-2009, 10:55 PM   #12
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

A certification label means squat. All that the label means, assuming it's even a valid label, is that someone from the certifying body looked at the design and approved it.

The design has no reflection whatsoever on whether or not the short little funny speakin guy that assembles the product gives a shit less about the end customer. If he puts it together wrong, makes a crappy weld, whatever, that lift is gonna drop your car faster than a ramp made of cinder blocks, and that certification label will still be stuck to the pile of carnage.

I work for one of the companies that can show you stacks of certifications from every governing body imagineable, damn few of which mean much of anything until a week before this year's audit.
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Old 09-16-2009, 01:14 AM   #13
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

But again, it means a lot to many consumers (including me!). Most guys are not engineers and cannot look into everything about every lift. Certification puts things on a level playing feild. With it, one knows it meets some minimum standards and is likely safe. then the consumer can concentrate on other features and benefits, as well as price, to make their decision.
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Old 09-16-2009, 01:17 AM   #14
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

If the certification company x-rayed every weld on every lift they certified and magnafluxed them, and looked them over for defects that would mean something to me. But to just OK the design leaves too much room for error to me. It might be a good design built by 3 year olds for all I know.
And it just smacks of holding company's hostage to their pay to play game. If the lifts where certified by an agency that had no monetary reward for certifying lift that would hold a lot more water with me.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:07 AM   #15
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

Iron,

Would you work for a certifying agency without compensation?

edit: upon thinking further about this, you may not be talking about the "dues" a company pays to be certified. I understand the conflict of interest that arises from having to pay an agency to have something certified, but what other way is there?

Last edited by benjamming; 09-16-2009 at 10:10 AM.
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:56 AM   #16
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

Quote:
Originally Posted by e-tek View Post
But again, it means a lot to many consumers (including me!). Most guys are not engineers and cannot look into everything about every lift. Certification puts things on a level playing feild. With it, one knows it meets some minimum standards and is likely safe. then the consumer can concentrate on other features and benefits, as well as price, to make their decision.
But, that's just a false sense of security, like a politician claiming he's giving you honest truth.

I agree with you in principal, but, just as I'd never point a loaded gun at anyone even if the safety were on, I would never rely solely on a label as proof of anything other than the minimum effort (typical human nature) was done, at one time, to get that label.

I'm involved in the ISO9001 process at work. It means a lot to the consultant who carries out the audits and it might mean something to the occasional customer who wants to be impressed with a fancy plaque at the door and such things. It means little to anyone else until the week before the audit and the month or so after.
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Old 09-16-2009, 11:00 AM   #17
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

I too don't care if my lift was certified or not as long it's built like a tank, when I was researching lifts I more or less went with the company that I thought had the best design for my needs. I took many things in consideration, ie base plate,hydraulic rams thickness, cable thickness and the most important there safety locking mechanism. All that mattered more than certification.
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Old 09-16-2009, 11:41 AM   #18
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron-Iceberg View Post
If the lifts where certified by an agency that had no monetary reward for certifying lift that would hold a lot more water with me.
Eh - example for you: Costs about $140 (NHRA) and around $100 (IHRA) to have your roll cage certified for competition in certain classes. The inspector has to pay for training, tools, travel - they will not do it for free. A sonic tester for roll bar tubing costs +$1000 plus who knows what else. "no monetary reward" is not very practical for the people or agency doing the work. It also depends on the certification criteria. If it's for example traceability, big deal - lotsa paper work. If it's for example seismic, then if it carries a real cert at least one of that model has been on a shaker table and any design changes will have an engineering eval on the change impact - or a retest. You an still produce crap and be ISO 9001 certified. Conforming to the ISO model HELPS by providing structure and guidelines, but only if the company culture supports it. Otherwise it's an exercise in polishing procedures and paperwork before the audit team lands in the conference room. I used to be involved with nuclear stuff ( 10 CFR50 Apx. B) and there is some teeth there.
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Old 09-16-2009, 12:28 PM   #19
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

When I final spring for my first (and second) lift for the Asylum, it will be certified.

This, of course, doesn't guarantee the product won't fail, but I think the risk is minimized. It is still up to the user to final inspect the actual product they receive and maintain it properly over time. Hopefully what certification means is the product was designed and built per some minimum guidelines/procedures and that a number of samples were tested for verification.

For a lift, I'm guessing these design guidelines have a healthy safety factor (3:1 or maybe even as high as 5:1) built in the structural members to compensate for minor inconsistencies in the whole design/build process and also for working conditions over and above the "normal" intended use. And all good manufacturer's know their users may "abuse" the product from time to time.

All this is still not good enough for me. I intend to buy lifts with rating much higher that anything I will ever roll on it.
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Old 09-16-2009, 05:28 PM   #20
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Default Re: would you buy certified or uncertified lift?

I feel better about a certified lift. Does that mean a lift will never, ever fail? Course not. It does mean that some sort of minimum standard was set and met. And it means that more eyes than just the manufacturer's and distributor's has been on the design. That's it. On the other hand, if the right lift at the right price with the right features comes my way, I might be inclined to do my best to determine on my own if it's good enough for me.

My objection to BYB's pitch isn't the lack of certification, but that they tried to sell me on the idea that their (very expensive) non-certified lifts were somehow better for me because they lacked certification. The whole, "It's not a bug...it's a feature!" angle. From where I stand, certification can either be inconsequential or a benefit. Non-certification can only be inconsequential or a hazard. Anything else, is marketing gobblety-guk. Feel free to disagree, just my .02
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