A Modest Proposal Re: Paypal Gift Option

[Bolster]

(This post is not "aimed" at anyone in particular. I have not been reading the classified section for awhile, so I don't know if this even applies to any current sales or not. Don't take this post personally, it's not intended that way.)

I have a modest proposal regarding people posting in the Classified section. As you may (or may not) know, when you use the "gift" option to send money via PayPal, there are virtually no protections for the buyer. If the sale goes wrong, PayPal won't help the buyer if the buyer has "gifted."

Since we are all instructed to abide by the sticky above, "Avoid Dealing with Scam Artists," it seems reasonable we should be particularly cautious about sellers with few posts who are asking for Gift Option.

Personally, I'd prefer to pay a little more, and get the PayPal protections, so I will henceforth NOT be paying ANYBODY, not even my dear friends, via the "Gift" option on PayPal. Charge me a bit more, if you must. And henceforth, when I sell, I will not be asking for the "Gift" option in payment. In fact, I actively discourage anybody buying from me to use the "Gift" option; it doesn't protect you, the buyer, sufficiently. You should have some assurance that you will be protected by PayPal if the deal goes bad.

I would further propose that either we discourage the practice of asking for "Gift" Paypal entirely, or discuss a minimum post count before a seller can ask for "Gift," or ask sellers who are asking for "Gift" to provide two sell prices: Gift Price (if you want to take the risk) and Regular.

[Flame suit ON. But we need to discuss this. "Better out than in, I always say," according to Shreck.]

[zer01]

It is a great point, a few dollars saves the rest of your money.

[mtwaterguy]

I agree also. I do think this should probably be in the question and suggestion section so that the mods and possibly Ryan can get involved.

[Bull]

I gave up asking for the gift option a while ago. As far as I can tell, I don't get hit with a fee if someone pays me with a bank transfer or from their PP balance, so that seems to be the best method for everyone to use. Buyer is protected, seller doesn't lose any money.

[Bolster]

Oops, did I post in the wrong forum? Where did this posting land?

[Bolster]

Originally Posted by Bull

I gave up asking for the gift option a while ago. As far as I can tell, I don't get hit with a fee if someone pays me with a bank transfer or from their PP balance, so that seems to be the best method for everyone to use. Buyer is protected, seller doesn't lose any money.

My understanding also. I regularly pay with an account balance transfer, which does not cost the seller, to the best of my knowledge.

[brian90505]

I'm with you. I haven't been asked yet but if it's a deal-breaker, then no deal. If I'm sending my money though PP for a purchase, I'm checking the "goods" option.

[Bolster]

It would be nice if the mods or owner would comment that "PayPal gift is discouraged." Because it's getting rampant.

[Bull]

Originally Posted by Bolster

It would be nice if the mods or owner would comment that "PayPal gift is discouraged." Because it's getting rampant.

Is an official rule required? Or, is it enough that people who don't want to use this option will not buy from sellers who will only accept that form of payment?

[Boiler]

Doesn't paypal count the number of "non-gift" transactions of a person and then send them a 1099 if they had too many, when gifting doesn't add to that total. that was my understanding anyway.

[JPRACING]

From my understanding if you buy outside of ebay you can file a dispute but you have no protection at all to get your money refunded

[Hiball]

Just curious? Has anyone been screwed over here by paying via the Gift Option? I Prefer Gift payment but if a guy pays via the normal method (Its about 50/50) I have no issues and its always up to the Buyer in regards to any of my sales. Always... No questions asked.

Originally Posted by Bull

Is an official rule required? Or, is it enough that people who don't want to use this option will not buy from sellers who will only accept that form of payment?

I monitor the Classifieds 16 hours of the possible 24 and ive only known "1" Seller who ever made it "Mandatory" for Paypal payments to be "Gift" option. Not only is that Wrong, I believe that the seller was a 1 post wonder. Which is not a good combination... I really dont have any opinion on whether the Gift option should be against the rules or not, Ill agree to whatever the Administration says. I dont think we have members getting ripped off on a regular basis and of the Buyers and Sellers that frequent the Classifieds I would guess 80% of them have conducted business prior. It boils down to common sense In my opinion, If someone just joined today and has 1 post and wants to sell you a Brand New Snap on Screwdriver set for $50 shipped, and requests the Gift Method.. You might want to step back and think about it. I know from my personal experiences ive had guys ask for Gift payments and i just paid the fee's myself to make sure the Seller gets his share and i get my protection. I think a bigger issue in the Classifieds is that sellers want to create a seperate thread for every tool they have for sale. Ugh..

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

I'm wondering if anyone has gotten screwed over buying from new members? I see people that are posting their very first post in the Classified section. Unless they are vouched for by a senior member, why on earth should anyone buy from them?!

Which brings me back to another issue...either a minimum post count, or even better, a minimum amount of time on the forum before being allowed to sell stuff in Classifieds.

[rsieracki]

Originally Posted by Lookin4'67Galaxieconv

I'm wondering if anyone has gotten screwed over buying from new members? I see people that are posting their very first post in the Classified section. Unless they are vouched for by a senior member, why on earth should anyone buy from them?!

Which brings me back to another issue...either a minimum post count, or even better, a minimum amount of time on the forum before being allowed to sell stuff in Classifieds.

....or just not buying if your not comfortible

[RbrtAWhyt]

Originally Posted by rsieracki

....or just not buying if your not comfortible

Or not signing up just to hawk your junk. Scam artists are very good at making people feel comfortable.

I also believe that a 500 minimum post count, in forums other than the classified section, should be mandatory before being allowed the priviledge of using the classified section.

I also still think that the addition of the iTrader add-on for vB would be a huge help...

[Bull]

A couple of people have mentioned this, but it seems to be sort of glossed over: How many actual problems have we had here in the Classifieds, by new sellers or old sellers?

Not many.

[mikevango]

no way man. i just bought a couple snap on tools from a seller that at the time was his first post. the tools are sweet and they got here in 3 days. i used the regular paypal. i love the classifieds here bought probably 50 things from there. only once the seller was slow to ship. never any real problems.
i have gifted sellers the money in the past too, but it aint my favorite thing to do.


<<<666 posts. neat

[Vinko]

I've never really liked doing it. I'm not entirely sure all the reasons. Haven't given it much thought. I'd say it's up to the buyer and seller. But I do like the heavy post count minimum before posting in classifieds.

[JPRACING]

Originally Posted by mikevango

no way man. i just bought a couple snap on tools from a seller that at the time was his first post. the tools are sweet and they got here in 3 days. i used the regular paypal. i love the classifieds here bought probably 50 things from there. only once the seller was slow to ship. never any real problems.
i have gifted sellers the money in the past too, but it aint my favorite thing to do.


<<<666 posts. neat

Not all people are dishonest,everybody on this site started with 1 post

[supertooljunkie]

Originally Posted by JPRACING

Not all people are dishonest,everybody on this site started with 1 post

But, not always in the classifieds.

[JPRACING]

Originally Posted by supertooljunkie

But, not always in the classifieds.

I have read thru alot of post here and only saw i guy that screwed 3 members here that's not bad or good and thank paypal for getting their money back

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

Originally Posted by JPRACING

Not all people are dishonest,everybody on this site started with 1 post

Who said everyone was dishonest?! I've never had an issue with buying from anyone here. But I haven't bought much of anything from members with low post counts, and nothing from anyone that just joined.

[JPRACING]

Originally Posted by Lookin4'67Galaxieconv

Who said everyone was dishonest?! I've never had an issue with buying from anyone here. But I haven't bought much of anything from members with low post counts, and nothing from anyone that just joined.

Your toolbox restoration is top notch do you also do cars and are they sprayed with a gun

[beerbudget]

Originally Posted by RbrtAWhyt

Or not signing up just to hawk your junk. Scam artists are very good at making people feel comfortable.

I also believe that a 500 minimum post count, in forums other than the classified section, should be mandatory before being allowed the priviledge of using the classified section.

I found this site while looking for building ideas. Love the site. Saw there was a classified section and had some old tools laying around. Not my first post, but my second post was to "hawk my junk". Didn't sell a thing. One of two things was going on. Either no one wanted my junk or no one was comfortable buying. I lurk alot. Like to read the different ideas people have. I like to buy something when I find a good deal. I don't feel the need to comment just to do it, or be a "post whore". There is a site that I love to look at and I have been a member since 2003. My post count? 143.

I guess I could just sell on ebay but Meg has enough of my money. When I feel I have some useful info, I'll post it. Until then if you don't want to buy from me because I'm new, don't. No harm. I have something you like but still hesitant? PM me. Lets talk. Send me you number. We can chat. Live near me? Lets have a beer somewhere. Just don't be afraid to ask any questions because I'm new. 500 post count? All of my tools will be antique by then.

[JPRACING]

Originally Posted by beerbudget

I found this site while looking for building ideas. Love the site. Saw there was a classified section and had some old tools laying around. Not my first post, but my second post was to "hawk my junk". Didn't sell a thing. One of two things was going on. Either no one wanted my junk or no one was comfortable buying. I lurk alot. Like to read the different ideas people have. I like to buy something when I find a good deal. I don't feel the need to comment just to do it, or be a "post whore". There is a site that I love to look at and I have been a member since 2003. My post count? 143.

I guess I could just sell on ebay but Meg has enough of my money. When I feel I have some useful info, I'll post it. Until then if you don't want to buy from me because I'm new, don't. No harm. I have something you like but still hesitant? PM me. Lets talk. Send me you number. We can chat. Live near me? Lets have a beer somewhere. Just don't be afraid to ask any questions because I'm new. 500 post count? All of my tools will be antique by then.

you are a smart man and i agree with you only trying to pass on some tools that are collecting dust that's all

[Bull]

Like I said, we really haven't had much trouble at all here in the classifieds. I bought a SO ratchet early in the summer from someone who was new. No problems!

With Paypal, the risk is really reduced, anyway.

[RbrtAWhyt]

Originally Posted by beerbudget

I found this site while looking for building ideas. Love the site. Saw there was a classified section and had some old tools laying around. Not my first post, but my second post was to "hawk my junk". Didn't sell a thing. One of two things was going on. Either no one wanted my junk or no one was comfortable buying. I lurk alot. Like to read the different ideas people have. I like to buy something when I find a good deal. I don't feel the need to comment just to do it, or be a "post whore". There is a site that I love to look at and I have been a member since 2003. My post count? 143.

I guess I could just sell on ebay but Meg has enough of my money. When I feel I have some useful info, I'll post it. Until then if you don't want to buy from me because I'm new, don't. No harm. I have something you like but still hesitant? PM me. Lets talk. Send me you number. We can chat. Live near me? Lets have a beer somewhere. Just don't be afraid to ask any questions because I'm new. 500 post count? All of my tools will be antique by then.

Of the two threads you've started both have been selling "vintage" tools, so apparently your tools are already antiques. You seem to have plenty to say in your "for sale" threads, so join in on the other conversations floating around. Personally, I feel that the classified section, which is free, should be reserved for known contributing members, an not abused by unknown people signing up to "hawk their junk". The two suggestions I made are for everyone's protection. We shouldn't wait until someone gets ripped off to try and weed out potential scam artists.

[beerbudget]

These "vintage" tools were what I have laying in a tool box for a few years. Haven't used them since given to me. Just trying to pass on something that people on this board like. I'll say it again also. If I have no useful info, I won't post. Not gonna do it just to pad my count. I also don't see how posting 150+ times a month makes one more credible than the other.

As far as starting threads. I don't need to start one to ask a question thats already been asked. I know how to search. Would you like to see a pic of the patch of dirt that will be host to a new shop when the economy improves? Will that make you feel like you know me more?

I guess its a good thing you're not the one making the decisions. I can hear it now... YOU NEED TO HAVE 100 POSTS BEFORE YOU CAN POST!!!

Relax dude. Go back to post whoring. If you don't want to buy anything from me, don't. If the moderators don't want me to sell anymore, I won't. Still gonna lurk like a mofo. Might even post when i deem necessary.

[rsieracki]

Originally Posted by beerbudget

These "vintage" tools were what I have laying in a tool box for a few years. Haven't used them since given to me. Just trying to pass on something that people on this board like. I'll say it again also. If I have no useful info, I won't post. Not gonna do it just to pad my count. I also don't see how posting 150+ times a month makes one more credible than the other.

As far as starting threads. I don't need to start one to ask a question thats already been asked. I know how to search. Would you like to see a pic of the patch of dirt that will be host to a new shop when the economy improves? Will that make you feel like you know me more?

I guess its a good thing you're not the one making the decisions. I can hear it now... YOU NEED TO HAVE 100 POSTS BEFORE YOU CAN POST!!!

Relax dude. Go back to post whoring. If you don't want to buy anything from me, don't. If the moderators don't want me to sell anymore, I won't. Still gonna lurk like a mofo. Might even post when i deem necessary.

well put...

but feel free to jump in on the COO and cman warentee debates as well as the HF vs xzy threads so you can join the pissing contests and up your post count.

all kidding aside, you said it perfectly!!!

[beerbudget]

Yes. Let the whoring begin!!!

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

Originally Posted by beerbudget

Relax dude. Go back to post whoring. If you don't want to buy anything from me, don't. If the moderators don't want me to sell anymore, I won't. Still gonna lurk like a mofo. Might even post when i deem necessary.

It's up to you whether or not you want to post or not. But if you're going to be on the site anyways, doesn't hurt to state your opinion. Lord knows, there's enough threads out there, you must have something to offer?!

[johnnybentwrench]

Dude, That's like saying new members are criminals or we are going to rip you off.

[Eric Nordstrom]

Originally Posted by JPRACING

you are a smart man and i agree with you only trying to pass on some tools that are collecting dust that's all

I also agree

Eric

[southernfriedcj]

I've been here almost 5 years but I have a low post count. What does that prove?
I could have posted 1,000's of meaningless posts like some do bashing Chinese tools or Horrible Freight. Would that make me more trust worthy?

[Snappy]

Somehow I missed this thread. There doesn't seem to be as many sellers asking for "gifts" payment as there was. Some want the "gift" or add 3% for payment. I would rather see the 3% added into the purchase price, personally.

[Toolman12]

On purchases i now include the paypal fee to the seller i think it is fair and just good karma most of the guys selling here myself included are cutting the price to the bone anyway
Just my 2 cents

[ZYA_LTR]

I also think that if there is a post minimum enforced, then it needs to be reasonable.

I like others have stated, can and have been a member of forums for many years, but have a low post count, as i have better things to do than clog up threads with useless babble.....nice garage......good luck with the sale........wish i had that toolbox. I frequent so many forums, that if i posted to them all, it would be a fulltime job to try to get my post count up on them all to 500 without posting useless garbage.

If i can't add anything informative and helpful, then i will continue to just read and learn from what others are teaching, or just keep drooling over the keyboard and some of the beautiful garages that we have displayed here.

I think we all just need to be aware of what we buy/sell, and proceed with caution always to protect ourselves and our money.....Be smart. We work hard for our money, don't give it away so easily.

[Octarine]

I've asked for the gift option in the past. From now on I will just add it to any sale prices. I am by no means a senior member here but I like to think I've acted fairly.

[flintsghost]

I don't care one way or the other and for some asking for a "gift option" through paypal is common and for others it's a deal breaker. I've asked for the gift option from the last three or four people who have bought from me and they have been more than pleased and left good comments in the column where that is appropriate. On the other hand I bought a wrench from a moderately senior member of this forum who took regular paypal and he tried to cheat me by asking for $5 postage. He spent $1.48 on postage and he packaged the wrench in a tape wrapped and folded piece of plain cardboard sent by regular mail that he got, by his own admission at a kisock in the mall outside his store. It took 10 days to arrive. There was $.53 postage due on arrival. When I mentioned it to him, and told him what I thought, he refunded a whole dollar. I then found it strange when he tried to buy some wrenches from me and I asked for the "gift option" that he actually accused me of trying to cheat him and it was a deal breaker for him. That's fine as he's the only person who actually made the effort to cheat me and did it. He's been on this forum since 2009 and has 638 posts. So whether a person is a old guy here with lots of posts or is selling with just 1 makes no difference at all. A thief and cheat is a a thief and cheat and number of posts won't disquise it. Most of the people I have dealt with on this forum and others are basically straight shooters.

Just because someone has a paypal balance and/or pays through their bank, doesn't mean paypal doesn't extract fees from the receiver. Even on refunds if they are held long enough. By using the gift option then the buyer pays the exact fee up front, not some estimated amount which may or may not be correct. However, I will also take a USPS money order or a personal check. Personal checks just have to clear. I'm not in a hurry to get my money but the product doesn't leave till I do. I have found on this and other forums that people who say they will send a money order only really follow through about 50% of the time.

Just for the record, sellers get screwed by paypal too, when buyers have remorse and decide they want to return something and want a refund for part of the cost because it's not quite as nice as they expected. Sometimes the seller doesn't even get the same exact item back on a return. That hasn't happened to me but I have heard from other sellers that it has happened to them. I've been on Ebay as both a buyer and seller for over 12 years and have feedback over 900 with 100% positive. But I have still had a couple of problems with both buyers and sellers. Paypal incidentally does protect you from sales of goods that were not on Ebay as I've been through that as the injured party from not receiving some items that I ordered at all. They covered it and I got all my money back. Paypal does not send out 1099's for gifts either, and are not required to unless they exceed the lawful maximum which is $13000. I doubt that kind of a sale will occur here.

Incidentally, I use paypal "gift" to pay for items when it's requested. I don't have a problem with doing that and neither should anyone else, especially if like me they ask for it themselves.

[Rickster]

No more rules for the classifieds... please! If someone wants to sell with paypal gift option that's their business. Buyers know the score. Quit trying to protect us all from ourselves. If you're worried about refunds and protection are we going to stop money orders and checks too??

Quit screwing with the classifieds already. I know a lot of guys are upset about their sales being down due to the increase in new sellers, but it will all wash out in time. The good sellers will rise to the top and the bad ones will fade away.

[Snappy]

Originally Posted by Rickster

No more rules for the classifieds... please! If someone wants to sell with paypal gift option that's their business. Buyers know the score. Quit trying to protect us all from ourselves. If you're worried about refunds and protection are we going to stop money orders and checks too??

Quit screwing with the classifieds already. I know a lot of guys are upset about their sales being down due to the increase in new sellers, but it will all wash out in time. The good sellers will rise to the top and the bad ones will fade away.

I thought this was the "question & suggestion forum"

[ajchien]

Instead of a rule, how about a sticky note guideline of some sort?

Something like:

1) please check prior seller feedback (can we ave an easier way to find feedback?)... HiBall does a good job linking to his feedback thread. Maybe others can point to their eBay feedback etc.
2) gift payments are not protected by PayPal, new or low post count sellers may consider not asking for gifts... Or be wary of New sellers asking for gift payments ...

Not rules, but maybe suggested guidelines?

[nso123]

If you look at Paypal's terms of service, they say that you are not supposed to say that you want 3% over the price if using Paypal. I know of other forums that will zap an ad that asks for it. It seems to me that it would be easier to include it in the price from the start. Also, if you send as a gift, Paypal charges the sender 3%.

[Fordman7795]

Also, if you send as a gift, Paypal charges the sender 3%.

Only if you pay with a credit card. If u pay by balance transfer or bank transfer there are no fees for either party

[junk4dummies]

Originally Posted by nso123

If you look at Paypal's terms of service, they say that you are not supposed to say that you want 3% over the price if using Paypal. I know of other forums that will zap an ad that asks for it. It seems to me that it would be easier to include it in the price from the start. Also, if you send as a gift, Paypal charges the sender 3%.

The California law has been the following for 25 years.
You can charge the the customer the amount you are charged by taking thier credit card. You must have it posted where the transactions are taking place. It must state that you will charge for the cost of using thier card. I had a small business back then and the credit card charge was a wopping 6% because my volume was low. The Feds changed the rules.

It is up to the state. Pap Pal Might be over steping thier rights is some states. Now you are going to make me call my frined who has a law firm up in Redding California to find out.

Pay Pal can not read the post. They know who sends and receives. There is no way unless they get lucky that they could inforce that rule. They know the sender and the receiver of the money. They do not know the conditions. Just like the bank. They know you wrote a check but they have no idea what it was for unless something is written in the memo line.
?????
If there are so few problems why worry about it. It seems that scams here are far less than in the general public. Besides someone is always goingt o live close to the person that can hit them over the head for you. LOL

I have been taken a few times on E-bay. I had one account for buying and one for selling. I had people not send me goods and they never contacted me until I filed a complaint. I had people posting poor scores becasue I was hard to deal with and I was only buying. I always paid the same day if I could. E bays scoring system is a joke. I never leave a comment or post a feed back. I only do it what I get screwed and only then after contacing E bay. I even have gotten a bad tools or antiques that were not the one posted. Every time I buy on line I print out a photo. When I get the wrong thing or there is dammage I can prove it by my photo.

In the construction, engineering and architectural world a blue print is part of the contract. If I leave out something on a blue print and the contract is signed the contractor only need to do the work that is listed on the prints. He did not bid on extras, changes or things omitted. He is not required by law to do more. The contractor is not a mind reader. If he misses somthing that he does not put in his bid that is another matter.

I am willing to send you an item and have you look it over and then pay for it and the shipping. I you don't want it send it back and when I get it I will refund your shipping. A $100 is not going to break the bank if someone does not pay me. Things happen in business. You can't make everyone happy even if you rub their feet. LOL The almighty is the judge and jury.

[G_P]

Just wanted to bump this up in light of the situation with the user "I Can Fix Anything"

He took several "gift" payments and now has disappeared without shipping the items to some people.

I dont use paypal but if I did I would never use the Gift option to pay for items online.

[Eagle Point]

I never ask for the gift box to be checked but lately a few buyers did it on their own I guess as a Thanks. I think as stated above that posting feedback after the transaction is good. When I buy or sell on Ebay that is what I go by and so far so good. Also, I always post in the ad that if you live in the area to come on by, save the shipping and check out the items and maybe buy more stuff. Feedback could be offered if you have met in person and saw that things were on the up & up which might put others at ease. I know on the Lexus forum site that I am on you can't post on the classifed section until you have a certain# of post on the forum, I believe it is 50? This probably helps weed out some of those that just want to sell and nothing more.