View Full Version : Why TORX? was there a problem with hex?


Nealcrenshaw
05-18-2011, 09:30 PM
Torx are easy to round off and bend,a hex offers more holding power and less rounding,can someone tell me what am i missing. and i like the square drive the best.

I can fix anything
05-18-2011, 09:32 PM
More contact area, less likely to strip.

Fedwrench
05-18-2011, 09:44 PM
If they round off and bend, you need to buy a better barnd of torx bits/drivers.:bounce:
To me there's two reasons for torx (the whole torx family). One, is to generate more tool sales to be able to work with torx. Two, robots love torx fasteners and automated assembly has spread the use of torx.:beer:

Trucky
05-18-2011, 09:47 PM
More area and torque unless i'm mistaken, and they line up very well and last in robotic applications (As stated)

And people get bored.

Strouty
05-18-2011, 09:50 PM
The problem with torx is usually user error, even if the user refuses to admit it. In a vehicle situation, the torx head usually has dirt or rust and the user does not clean it out, the bit sits too high and either the head strips or if the tool is cheap it strips. The other is not having the bit perfectly straight on, this causes all kinds of fasteners to fail. Third is not enough downward pressure during the initial turning.

Nealcrenshaw
05-18-2011, 09:58 PM
Torx has 6 points.
a hex has 6 points.
Square has 4 points with double or triple the possible torque load.

Hence the square drive on ratchets and sockets! Just more stuff to make us buy.

Scout Driver
05-18-2011, 10:01 PM
TORX drive woodscrews are far superior to any other woodscrews I have used. Much less likely to strip.

Scott

Nealcrenshaw
05-18-2011, 10:05 PM
Have you ever drove in square screws with a square bit,the torque is unbelieveable.

ibedayank
05-18-2011, 10:09 PM
TORX drive woodscrews are far superior to any other woodscrews I have used. Much less likely to strip.

Scott

Have you ever drove in square screws with a square bit,the torque is unbelieveable.

I use S2 and T25 3inch screws with enough power in the drill it will keeping going through a 2x4 till you stop the drill


try that with a phillips drive screw

2oolhound
05-18-2011, 10:11 PM
It's kinda like fine threads compared to coarse. If you have round stock which pattern uses less space? Torx leaves more of the meat in place on the fasteners (just like fine threads) which is important where space confinements allow exacting materials in designs. Don't use the drawings in the 1st post as a comparison as they are hand drawn. This is my opinion anyway. I find they hold the bit the best too when screwing into tough material.

pipsters
05-18-2011, 10:11 PM
The problem with torx in an automotive application is they tend to rust internally and collect crud in them. I like etorx as they don't collect any thing that can't be handled. The triple square bit was/is the worst, and I hate VW because of it.

My Volvo has a torx slot on the end of the sway bar that you are supposed to hold while undoing the nut, umm..seriously? Did the engineers not think that the crud inside over 10-15 years would rust that bitch right out?

Look at this, unbelievable.

http://members.shaw.ca/heeeeee/strut/2.JPG

I didn't even know there was a torx slot in there, got my impact and snapped the stud on the sway bar. I'm still pissed.

briggsguy17
05-18-2011, 10:26 PM
Torx has 6 points.
a hex has 6 points.
Square has 4 points with double or triple the possible torque load.

Hence the square drive on ratchets and sockets! Just more stuff to make us buy.

Points really have nothing to do with it. A hex driver has 6 contact surfaces while a torx has 12. I have used square drive for wood screws and agree that they are much better, but I have also used torx for wood screws and they are better yet. In my opinion the torx is to the square drive what the square drive is to the phillips. And most torx errors are related to the user as others have mentioned. Most people will use a torx that is one size too small. The one size smaller torx will usually fit but it is not a tight fit.

bitbycarbug
05-18-2011, 11:59 PM
My Volvo has a torx slot on the end of the sway bar that you are supposed to hold while undoing the nut, umm..seriously? Did the engineers not think that the crud inside over 10-15 years would rust that bitch right out?

Look at this, unbelievable.


I didn't even know there was a torx slot in there, got my impact and snapped the stud on the sway bar. I'm still pissed.

To think they engineer a car for it to be worked on later, and even 10-15 years after purchase is quite absurd. The vehicle is designed to be put together on the factory floor as cheap and fast as possible. Serviceability is usually second or third on the list.

I had the same thing on my Toyota's sway-bar. I figured it out, and then replaced the link with an aftermarket adjustable one with regular hex nuts and washers. Problem Solved. :beer:

Danglerb
05-19-2011, 12:04 AM
initially I think torx were used to keep people out of stuff, same as the triwing etc.

freeskier
05-19-2011, 12:08 AM
why do robots prefer torx?

TOOL MASTER
05-19-2011, 12:13 AM
square drive has been around for a long time.1908..even before phillips 30's...but never caught on till recently..

dwm
05-19-2011, 12:15 AM
To think they engineer a car for it to be worked on later, and even 10-15 years after purchase is quite absurd. The vehicle is designed to be put together on the factory floor as cheap and fast as possible. Serviceability is usually second or third on the list.

I had the same thing on my Toyota's sway-bar. I figured it out, and then replaced the link with an aftermarket adjustable one with regular hex nuts and washers. Problem Solved. :beer:

Correct. Torx are used because they're fast, they're difficult to strip when new (on the assembly line), they don't cam out (reduces RSI and rework), they're easy for a robot to load and put straight in every time, etc.

The only fasteners that receive serviceability consideration are those that hold parts whose maintenance is expected to be billed to the manufacturer. Namely service within the warranty period performed by the dealers in the network.

Trucky
05-19-2011, 12:16 AM
http://www.sfsintec.biz/internet/sfsinten.nsf/PageID/TORX_PLUS

That's something for "torx-plus" but I couldn't find one so quick for regular torx. Maybe that helps.

William Payne
05-19-2011, 12:25 AM
initially I think torx were used to keep people out of stuff, same as the triwing etc.

Thats what I allways thought, my dad used to fix petrol pumps and he allways said that alot of oddball fasteners were to keep people who didn't know what they were doing out.

A mechanic I know said a similar thing when I saw him working on a mercedes with internal star pattern headbolts and he said it was to keep cowboys out.

dankicksass
05-19-2011, 12:26 AM
I've broken a lot more Robertson square drive bits than Torx bits driving deck screws... no fastener really bothers me on a car as long as it's not rusted fast and I have the driver for it. I'm not much fond of 12pt Ford fasterners, triple square or those damn spline drive VW head bolts; they just made me buy more crap I hardly touch, but it's not really a big deal.

therealwormey
05-19-2011, 12:37 AM
Have you ever drove in square screws with a square bit,the torque is unbelieveable.

have you ever drove in a torx screw with a good and proper size bit,the screw will break before the bit, worked at freightliner factory and i couldnt count how many screws i've installed. usually the rounding off happens when you use a 25 bit in a 27 head. a torx actually has 12 contact sufaces,they back out much better if need be. a square has 4,i prefer the torx. i guess its all in what you get good with.

demographic
05-19-2011, 01:11 AM
Torx has 6 points.
a hex has 6 points.
Square has 4 points with double or triple the possible torque load.

Hence the square drive on ratchets and sockets! Just more stuff to make us buy.

Then there's THIS (http://www.ultimategarage.com/Facom/cdx.html) form of drive which can handle even more torque.

Personally I'm not getting them as its just another set of tools that would be incompatible with every thing else I own without an adapter.

dankicksass
05-19-2011, 01:20 AM
Then there's THIS (http://www.ultimategarage.com/Facom/cdx.html) form of drive which can handle even more torque.

Personally I'm not getting them as its just another set of tools that would be incompatible with every thing else I own without an adapter.

That's what I said about Gearwrench pass-thru spline drive before I got it. Now I don't leave home without it.

greasemonkey44
05-19-2011, 01:38 AM
That's what I said about Gearwrench pass-thru spline drive before I got it. Now I don't leave home without it.

thats funny, i got the HF version just so i could get it to work with my already present tools

as far as torx vs robertson vs allen vs phillips vs torx plus vs triwing vs whatever the hell
i find for carpentry the robertsons are kind(sq dr), they rarely cam out even if youre out of alignment
the torx are great for dashes and what not but they do have a tendency to hold moisture and dirt, tapping the driver in with a hammer helps alot; like everyone else said they are used so much now because in a clean environment with a robot they are the best, fast clean and efficient
allens are acually my least favorite, they seem to crap out most often. they are either filled with mud or so rusted on the inside they cam out, then you are really fucked:lol_hitti
philips is ok for most things, not great but ok, they rust they jam they cam out constantly but whatever at least everyone can service it

all this is imho, everyone is welcome to their own opinions:beer:

diesel research
05-19-2011, 06:59 AM
Torx has 6 points.
a hex has 6 points.
Square has 4 points with double or triple the possible torque load.

Hence the square drive on ratchets and sockets! Just more stuff to make us buy.

Not nearly so simple.

I deal with torx, robertson, phillips, hex screws on a pretty regular basis. Your observation is almost exactly opposite what I see.

Canadian (square) screws suck balls! Hex is a step up, but I'd rather have torx of appropriate size.

Maybe I am a robot.

BTW, not all of my impact/sockets have square drives. They look much like your axle shaft (which is also NOT square drive) ;)

http://www.tooltopia.com/_img/SUN/SUN5533MD.jpg

willy3486
05-19-2011, 07:07 AM
If you don't like torx then don't ever work on anything made by Apple. You can't work on any of their computers without a set. And you think thats bad now Apple has come out with their own version called a pentalobe. It looks like a flower or something. They try to keep everyone out unless they are Apple certified. I am Apple certified and even I have a hard time getting into their stuff due to designs.

nato
05-19-2011, 07:09 AM
I think it's due to the fact that when they first started being utilized, I'm sure the general population didn't have much of the torx tool supply, so, it made it exclusive to only mechanics so "fix-at-homer's" couldn't fix stuff themselves which in-turn, had to be taken to a shop which then, generated revenue (the grand scheme of things).
I would say it's the same also as far as what people shouldn't be messing around with.
Example; an idiot mechanic doesn't know what a MAF sensor is and thinks he needs to take it out for some strange reason but then realizes that he desont have a tamperproof torx bit to remove the screws. Preventative maybe?
Same with the fasteners used to secure bathroom stalls in public places...unless you're one of us, you're gonaa look at those screws and say "WTF?" Mischief deterrent.
They're usually either drag link headed screws or tamperproof torx screws.
I wouldn't put it past certain company's to only use NEWLY, SPECIALLY DESIGED fastener types exclusive to only what their supplied service technician is usually the only one capable of servicing with special tools that 99.9% of the time, that serviceman is going to be the only one to have.

Joe Mamma
05-19-2011, 07:31 AM
why do robots prefer torx?

Because they don't slip when tightened like Philips do.

My understanding is that Phillips were designed and used to prevent over-tightening. With automation being so precise (regarding torque settings) now, you often don't have to worry about overtighteneing.

Joe Mamma

Moose-LandTran
05-19-2011, 02:13 PM
My understanding is that Phillips were designed and used to prevent over-tightening.

Correct. They were designed for use in aluminium air frames, the point being that the bit would cam out of the screw head before enough torque was reached that would strip the threads tapped into aluminium parts. They're a goddamn pain in the ass.

Internal Torx is pretty good most of the time, most damage incurred on them comes from incorrect/low quality tools being used on them, and rust/dirt inside them. (From my experience, at least.) For plastic undertrays and wheelarch liners i use a pick to clean the head out first, i get very few problems from when when i do this. I don't have to deal with too much rust, so they're not much of a problem to me.

Triple Squares hardly ever give me trouble, i've only ever had problems with one or two. (One being a Mk 5 Golf seat belt bolt, notorious for stripping out.)