"New" refrigerant - R290

[theoldwizard1]

It is PROPANE ! It is a much "better" (more efficient) refrigerant than what is being used today.

FYI. The propane you get from your local LPG supplier is not pure propane. It has other gases mixed in. The amount of "other" varies.

 

[Lassen Forge]

Not new - Before R-12 was invented (in the late 1920's) all refrigerant gasses were flammable and/or toxic. Propane was being used way back when, and was dropped in the 1920's as it was too dangerous for use. They also used Sulfur Dioxide or Ammonia (had a roundtop frodge on the porch that ran SO2). Methyl Chloride was also a popular refrigerant.

Mind you, our current brand new fridge also runs C3H8 and is, as far as I know, safe from blowing up... then again, so was my grandma's GE roundtop, from killing techs or family members. Or going boom.

 

[AA/FC]

delete

 

[theoldwizard1]

Not new - Before R-12 was invented (in the late 1920's) all refrigerant gasses were flammable and/or toxic. Propane was being used way back when, and was dropped in the 1920's as it was too dangerous for use.

I knew it had been used, but it seems to be getting more and more popular !

 

[bonneyman]

As I recall propane has a very similar pressure operating profile to R-22. And it could use the same oil, seals, gaskets, expansion devices, etc.
Large factories in certain circumstances used this to advantage, piping in liquid propane to their office A/C units before then using the stuff to run their furnaces. They extracted cooling from the liquid propane evaporating for their offices and such, then piped the vaporized propane to the manufacturing section to burn in the furnaces, forges, and whatever. Double use, smart. Only thing was it was only cost efficient if the heating need was more than a million BTU's or something.

 

[Lassen Forge]

Because it's not a CFC... even though it's dangerous as hell as its highly flamable (which is why R-12 was sussed out in the first place), it won't punch a hole in the ozone layer, keeping Greta happy... so it MUST be OK, even though 100 years ago, they realized it was pretty effing dangerous....
Those ho do not remember history, are doomed to burn for it.

 

[BrandonV]

As I recall propane has a very similar pressure operating profile to R-22. And it could use the same oil, seals, gaskets, expansion devices, etc.
Large factories in certain circumstances used this to advantage, piping in liquid propane to their office A/C units before then using the stuff to run their furnaces. They extracted cooling from the liquid propane evaporating for their offices and such, then piped the vaporized propane to the manufacturing section to burn in the furnaces, forges, etc. Double use, smart. Only thing was it was only cost efficient if the heating need was more than a million BTU's or something.

Used to be a lot of folks in Mexico using propane in lieu of refrigerant in their automotive systems from what I was over told.

 

[Firebrick43]

Lots of farmers have converted their own tractors to propane after R12 disappeared/became outrageously priced.

Father did all of his. Worked better than R12

R1234 has some propane in it in new cars.

A lot of your aerosol spray cans use invented propane for propellant.

Modern fuel injected cars use higher pressure and more flammable fuel/low flashpoint under the hood and people accept those risk?

Propane in an auto ac system is not going to explode in the system, it can’t.

It will only explode if it leaks out quick enough in an unventilated area and is ignited, and with only a few pounds that scenario is unlikely.

It’s odd what people fear and then use everyday that is much riskier without batting an eye

 

[duneslider]

Our "new" fridge has R600 refrigerant which to my understanding is "butane". I say "new" because according to the repair guy who has been out multiple times now there are a lot of differences in the equipment needed to make things work correctly with the R600. So, the first fridge bit the dust about 1.5 years ago and no parts were available to fix it, so they replaced the fridge (sounds environmentally friendly right), now the new fridge which was made with "upgraded" parts stopped working, again it was the compressor. Have no fear though, the new compressor is redesigned to work with the R600...

I guess R600 is so safe they just vent it into the atmosphere, no regs requiring them to evacuate it and reuse it. So, while I don't think the R600 is unsafe, I am struggling to see how the transition has been more environmentally friendly. The service guy said he has replaced hundreds, if not more, compressors or whole fridges/freezers since the switch. He said he makes great money doing it. He said not to worry though, we have a new and improved compressor that should work longer than a year this time.

The service guy said they aren't allowed to carry R600 on the trucks due to DOT requiring them to have special permits for those flammable liquids, everything had to ship to our house which delayed fixing it for nearly a week. Super convenient. They also can't do any soldering during the install he said due to the possibility of flammable liquids left in the lines, so the new stuff installed with what looks like some sort of pressfit couplers.

Anyway, thus far, my experience with the R600 has not been favorable.

 

[BrandonV]

I am struggling to see how the transition has been more environmentally friendly.

It never will be. Appliance companies always make money selling you a new refrigerator.

 

[drtyler]

It never will be. Appliance companies always make money selling you a new refrigerator.

Same as Dupont making a lot of extra money selling new refrigerant.

 

[BrandonV]

Same as Dupont making a lot of extra money selling new refrigerant.

I only find out about new refrigerants when I see the nameplate but didn't we get to a point where the GWP of the new stuff is pretty low?!? Why would they hop into dealing with flammable compounds?

 

[drtyler]

I only find out about new refrigerants when I see the nameplate but didn't we get to a point where the GWP of the new stuff is pretty low?!? Why would they hop into dealing with flammable compounds?

Because its all a big sham, and the consumer is the low man on the totem pole. All of the parties above the consumer are concerned about one thing only.

 

[Jim greengo]

Lots of farmers have converted their own tractors to propane after R12 disappeared/became outrageously priced.

Father did all of his. Worked better than R12

R1234 has some propane in it in new cars.

A lot of your aerosol spray cans use invented propane for propellant.

Modern fuel injected cars use higher pressure and more flammable fuel/low flashpoint under the hood and people accept those risk?

Propane in an auto ac system is not going to explode in the system, it can’t.

It will only explode if it leaks out quick enough in an unventilated area and is ignited, and with only a few pounds that scenario is unlikely.

It’s odd what people fear and then use everyday that is much riskier without batting an eye

Fuel injected cars don't tend to run into a coil under the dash inside of passenger area being the big differance.

 

[Firebrick43]

Fuel injected cars don't tend to run into a coil under the dash inside of passenger area being the big differance.

True, but I have never seen a catastrophic instant failure in the cab of the evaporator. And if the include an oderant who would light a cigarette?

The condenser on the other hand does in accidents but so does fuel lines in that situation and the gasoline stays in place where the propane quickly dissipates

 

[SlappyWhite]

Here they are not permitted to sell the classic refrigerants to people that are not licensed. Instead for DIY automotive repair they stuff like this (just an example):

https://www.princessauto.com/en/a-c-12a-refrigerant/product/PA0008503054

Marketed as R12a, Rwhatever, etc. It is basically propane (with maybe butane, etc) and yes it is way more potent than R134a etc. Lots of people run it and have no idea...likely in cars that have leaking AC as why did it need to be charged.

 

[ybnormal]

Not new - Before R-12 was invented (in the late 1920's) all refrigerant gasses were flammable and/or toxic. Propane was being used way back when, and was dropped in the 1920's as it was too dangerous for use. They also used Sulfur Dioxide or Ammonia (had a roundtop frodge on the porch that ran SO2). Methyl Chloride was also a popular refrigerant.

Mind you, our current brand new fridge also runs C3H8 and is, as far as I know, safe from blowing up... then again, so was my grandma's GE roundtop, from killing techs or family members. Or going boom.

well, considering they were built like tanks, with the big old lever handle that went ka-CHUNK when you opened it (I remember my grandmothers, still had it in 1995) ..... I wonder if those were designed to be used as an alternative Nuclear bomb attack shelter back in the day as beefy as they are?

 

[Lassen Forge]

Just don't latch that door on the way in... they were called "kiddie coffins" for good reason....

 

[ybnormal]

As I recall propane has a very similar pressure operating profile to R-22. And it could use the same oil, seals, gaskets, expansion devices, etc.

I was not aware of this. that explains why I see a lot of "propane refrigerators" in RVs. I always wondered HITH a gas designed to burn to cause HEAT managed to cool a refrigerator

 

[lzenglish]

I was not aware of this. that explains why I see a lot of "propane refrigerators" in RVs. I always wondered HITH a gas designed to burn to cause HEAT managed to cool a refrigerator

That would most probably be an absorption refer in your RV. Instead of a compressor, they use a solution generator to get the refrigeration effect cycle.

Absorption Refrigerator​

LZ

 

[fitter30]

True refrigeration cases have been using R290 for probably 15 years. These display cases don't hold much refrigerant was working for a outside contractor building test labs.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

That would most probably be an absorption refer in your RV. Instead of a compressor, they use a solution generator to get the refrigeration effect cycle.

Absorption Refrigerator​

LZ

I've got an old natural gas servel in my barn. The only power it uses is to run the light bulb when you open the door.

I'm guessing it is about 75 years old and works as new when I light it. I don't use it all the time as they are considered dangerous/banned/recalled due to issues with Carbon Monoxide. My barn has no insulation and a lot of gaps and holes, so I don't think it will be an issue there, but back in the day people were getting offed by their old servels so they recalled all of them and offered $100 bounty if you destroyed one.

I use mine only in "fridge overflow" times. Actually haven't lit in three or four years.

My understanding is the original patent for the absorption cycle was granted to a German patent clerk named A. Einstein. He figured out you needed to add helium to the ammonia to make it work.

 

[lzenglish]

The Crosley "IcyBall" 1920s. First "Absorption Unit" for Home Use.

LZ

 

[LopezBart]

I only find out about new refrigerants when I see the nameplate but didn't we get to a point where the GWP of the new stuff is pretty low?!? Why would they hop into dealing with flammable compounds?

Some info from the EPA:

https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2023-10/technology-transitions-final-rule-fact-sheet-2023.pdf

They're working on scheduled transitions to move away from HFCs that have a high GWP. There's still stuff out there that has a GWP of several hundred times that of CO2.

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