Would a three phase post be appreciated?

[MBfreak]

I have an inkling to post a 400/240 three phase residential and small business review.
Some theoretical stuff, some practicalities, and a few opinions.

Please let me know if it will add to the many excellent posts in GJ.
Or better binned?

Ola

 

[Stuart in MN]

400/240 isn't a voltage combination used in the US, plus residential three phase here is uncommon, but the principles of three phase power are going to be the same regardless of voltage so I think your knowledge would be welcome.

 

[mike93lx]

I think many, myself included, would enjoy your post

 

[alfredeneuman]

the principles of three phase power are going to be the same regardless of voltage

I learned 3 phase principles by studying some course papers from the "Royal Melbourne Technical College" supplied by a Australian.

 

[RPH]

Go with MB. The math maybe complex but the principles are the same. I personally enjoy reading about It, keeps the mind sharp.
Plus if you go to Canada you may find uncommon voltages in the same plant. Depends where it’s fed from.

 

[alfredeneuman]

240X1.732 is actually 415, why is it called 400?

 

[mike93lx]

240X1.732 is actually 415, why is it called 400?

400, 415, whatever it takes

A quick Google says it might be 400 Y 231?

 

[cycle61]

415/240y is used in many data centers. It’s an easy step down from 480 and gives you lots of single phase 240v for big server racks.

 

[mm08822]

240X1.732 is actually 415, why is it called 400?

110, 115, 117, 120,........220, 221!, 230, 240..........standards morphing over time. And of course, technically "loose" speak. Just like 440, 460, 480v is used in US.

In 1995, the prevalence was 220/385V for equipment I was installing in EU. I believe the working range is 385 - 415v today.

 

[Norcal]

It's 400/230V, 380/220V, 415/240V, mixing them up is like saying 120/220.

 

[mm08822]

Line - Line voltage will alway be 1.732x the Line -neutral voltage or visa-versa using 1/1.732 for the simpler case of WYE systems.

 

[cycle61]

Line - Line voltage will alway be 1.732x the Line -neutral voltage or visa-versa using 1/1.732.

Unless the system is a high leg delta.

 

[mm08822]

Agreed, but high-legs in a residence seems like a recipe for continuous blue-smoke parties, so I'll qualify my statement for the simpler case as applying to Wye systems.

 

[Steve from Socal]

I am looking at setting up some machinery in South America where 230/380 is still listed as power. Getting more info on the European 50 cycle network would be useful. A number of my machines use VFD's that are able to use 380/50Hz as well as some DC drives.

 

[Snapped-off]

400/240 isn't a voltage combination used in the US, plus residential three phase here is uncommon, but the principles of three phase power are going to be the same regardless of voltage so I think your knowledge would be welcome.

Yeah as stated, 415/240 can be commonly found in data centers. Trips people up when you talk about 240v with 1 hot and 1 neutral.

 

[fitter30]

St. Louis area in commercial buildings and industrial
208 3 ph
230 3 ph center tap grounded and ungrounded
240 3 ph
277 3 ph
480 3 ph both wye and delta can have 277 to ground or 480v leg to leg
4160 3 ph If you like to screw with your help 500 ton chiller pulls 65 amps fla a 480 v 100 hp pump might be 125 amps and ask them why.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

St. Louis area in commercial buildings and industrial
208 3 ph
230 3 ph center tap grounded and ungrounded
240 3 ph
277 3 ph
480 3 ph both wye and delta can have 277 to ground or 480v leg to leg
4160 3 ph If you like to screw with your help 500 ton chiller pulls 65 amps fla a 480 v 100 hp pump might be 125 amps and ask them why.

why would you have both 230v and 240v 3Ø delta? thats just odd

also are you saying you have 3Ø 277v line to line?

 

[fitter30]

why would you have both 230v and 240v 3Ø delta? thats just odd

also are you saying you have 3Ø 277v line to line?

Single phase for lighting and electric vav and fan terminals hvac

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Single phase for lighting and electric vav and fan terminals hvac

so the PoCo is delivering a separate 277v service via 2-wire? sorry im lost

 

[walta]

why would you have both 230v and 240v 3Ø delta? thats just odd

also are you saying you have 3Ø 277v line to line?

I do not think Fitter30 is saying you will find them in the same building but if you visit a few dozen old industrial building you are likely to find all the flavors mentioned.

The only difference between 230 and 240 with a grounded corners is if the transformer on the pole was manufactured before or after 1965 or so.

A lot of 277V finds its way into industrial lighting circuits as part of the 480 V 3P .

Walt

 

[whateg01]

400/240 isn't a voltage combination used in the US, plus residential three phase here is uncommon, but the principles of three phase power are going to be the same regardless of voltage so I think your knowledge would be welcome.

Good thing not every member is here in the US

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I do not think Fitter30 is saying you will find them in the same building but if you visit a few dozen old industrial building you are likely to find all the flavors mentioned.

The only difference between 230 and 240 with a grounded corners is if the transformer on the pole was manufactured before or after 1965 or so.

A lot of 277V finds its way into industrial lighting circuits as part of the 480 V 3P .

Walt

he listed the 277v as if it was a separate service. thats the point i was making

yes i know you get 277v line to neutral on a 480Y/277v service. Ive never seen or heard of a service that is strictly 277v

corner grounded delta is a rare beast. we have a few here in town.

 

[PCustoms]

This threads off to a good start....

 

[RPH]

Alls good!

This threads off to a good start....

 

[whateg01]

This threads off to a good start....

 

[PCustoms]

The OP, who's listed location is Sweden, offers a thread about 3 phase 400/240 service.

20 posts in and we're already bickering about 400/240 isn't a US voltage, and what voltages are available in St. Louis

 

[mm08822]

The OP, who's listed location is Sweden, offers a thread about 3 phase 400/240 service.

20 posts in and we're already bickering about 400/240 isn't a US voltage, and what voltages are available in St. Louis

You expected anything less

BTW, Alfred started it back in post 6!!

 

[mm08822]

If people can look past the voltages mentioned argue and ignore the 50Hz, many "split-phase only people" can learn something new. The wiring methods and hardware alone will be an eye-opener for some.

 

[MBfreak]

Hello to all.
I have zero professional knowledge of many inputs above, that relates to US voltage levels and also a rather peculiar way to connect a delta winding.
Please understand my shortcomings.
What I do know are most theoretical and technical aspects of European and Asian electrical power systems from the largest nuclear power stations to installation practice in a small flat.
I will restrict all my input to three phase power systems from 24 kV and below.

The three pase technology actually was mainly invented by Nikolas Tesla, US citize, together with maybe 4 other people in Russia and Europe,
Mr Tesla gave his patent rights to Westinghouse, saving that company from bankcrupcy.

Ola

 

[mike93lx]

Hello to all.
I have zero professional knowledge of many inputs above, that relates to US voltage levels and also a rather peculiar way to connect a delta winding.
Please understand my shortcomings.
What I do know are most theoretical and technical aspects of European and Asian electrical power systems from the largest nuclear power stations to installation practice in a small flat.
I will restrict all my input to three phase power systems from 24 kV and below.

The three pase technology actually was mainly invented by Nikolas Tesla, US citize, together with maybe 4 other people in Russia and Europe,
Mr Tesla gave his patent rights to Westinghouse, saving that company from bankcrupcy.

Ola

Ola, you owe no one any apologies. Your input here has always been valuable and interesting. Please do share, we'd love to hear it

 

[Racer_X]

I'd find a thread about six phase more entertaining and educational than three phase.

 

[83VillageRepair]

MBfreak I'm enjoying the thread. Please continue. The rest of us should refrain from destroying the discussion with pedantics.

 

[cannuck]

Plus if you go to Canada you may find uncommon voltages in the same plant. Depends where it’s fed from.

The only voltage at the consumption level you will find here different from USA is 575/600 - common to some industrial use in EU IIRC. 480 is still very common in older buildings and very common in the oil patch since so much of our equipment is from USA and it was once "normal" industrial here. Walk into my storage shelter and you will find some 415 - once again from "outside" equipment from EU (I have such a transformer to run one mill and lathe) but you would have to do it the same way in US (i.e. transform voltage).

Where it gets a fair bit different is in transmission voltages. We used to be 72Kv in rural SK, while next door in MB they were 69Kv. Some places are the even multiple 138, others are 130. Longer regional AC is often 230Kv so tying to US where 345 is more common requires a conversion link. We do 460Kv and 500Kv DC - and you can see THEY don't even match up. I think Quebec has some 1Gv DC. I couldn't even BEGIN to list the distribution voltages I have seen across North America. We are now all 60Hz (I think the last 50Hz system out of Niagara Falls NY closed a while back, but NYC subways ran some 25Hz until 20 years ago). In other words: while consumers here see almost exclusively 120/240 single phase AC buying industrial stuff at the end of the wire can be 208/230/460/575 so not too bad, but the medium and high voltage stuff is a nightmare of incompatability.

So please don't hesitate to tell us what voltages, phases and frequencies you use in ANY other place. Fascinating subject.

 

[mike93lx]

I think Quebec has some 1Gv DC.

You mean megavolt, correct? I can find some references to >1,000Kv distribution online but not >1,000,000Kv.

 

[cannuck]

I'd find a thread about six phase more entertaining and educational than three phase.

6 phase is fairly common in mine hoisting motors as they are much smoother and deliver higher torque. Here is a bit on how they work: https://ijcrt.org/papers/IJCRT_181342.pdf
Not sure if you meant that sarcastically or literally.

 

[cannuck]

You mean megavolt, correct? I can find some references to >1,000Kv distribution online but not >1,000,000Kv.

Oooops, what's a 1,000 x error between friends? Yes, MV. I am the HV mechanical guy, not one of the sparkies.
BTW: my good friend/former JV partner in that business saw the 1.1MV unit in China that is I think the highest voltage transformer EVER built. At that voltage the bushings (insulators that take power into the tank) are beyond belief. The limit for building most stuff at such extremes is having a test facility that can vaildate bushing and lightning arrestor designs. I assume China has such a facility - one huge advantage of not relying on legacy facilities and equipment to move forward.

 

[mike93lx]

Oooops, what's a 1,000 x error between friends? Yes, MV. I am the HV mechanical guy, not one of the sparkies.
BTW: my good friend/former JV partner in that business saw the 1.1MV unit in China that is I think the highest voltage transformer EVER built. At that voltage the bushings (insulators that take power into the tank) are beyond belief. The limit for building most stuff at such extremes is having a test facility that can vaildate bushing and lightning arrestor designs. I assume China has such a facility - one huge advantage of not relying on legacy facilities and equipment to move forward.

All good. 1Mv is still mind blowing

 

[cannuck]

All good. 1Mv is still mind blowing

I have worked on a fair bit of 460 and a bit of 500. Primary bushings for the latter arrive one per semi and you really don't want to drop or chip one (I am, er WAS usually the person doing the rigging - mostly retired now....as I sit here printing out the PO for a job next week).

 

[grounded-b]

corner grounded delta is a rare beast. we have a few here in town.

Not here in Milwaukee, WI. ( note my screen name )

Many industrial facilities drop down their 480 3phase to 240V corner grounded delta ( usually the B phase ).

Steve - IBEW 494
"grounded-B"

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Not here in Milwaukee, WI. ( note my screen name )

Many industrial facilities drop down their 480 3phase to 240V corner grounded delta ( usually the B phase ).

Steve - IBEW 494
"grounded-B"

why?