36X48 Garage Build - AKA "I Love Debt" is Underway!

[racecougar]

Why would someone contract with a builder that they don't fully trust?

With the stuff this company has already pulled on the OP, would you have any faith in their word?

 

[35Ford]

No. None. That's my point. I wouldn't be working with someone I didn't trust.

 

[bowtie327]

Every build has its ups and downs. No building is perfect. And yours, while not exactly as you would prefer it, does look to be coming on beautifully.

There are many ways to achieve success. Yes, more rebar in a grid pattern would have been preferred. As well as pouring deeper and thicker pads with rebar grids where the lift footers will live.

But this was missed in the details/communications. It happens. Mistakes happen too. So you have to flex and use other solutions.

For example:

Switch to a 4 post lift and spread that weight out. And/or add wider steel pads to the post feet (ask your lift vender if they have them/can fasten them on/what they recommend).

Cutting concrete in the first 24hrs really helps to control where the cracks go. Really helps, but does not dictate.

Fiber mesh is not a rebar replacement. Rebar adds strength and keeps concrete together when it does crack. Mesh helps with small cracking/crack control. Lots and lots of garage floors don't have any rebar or fiber mesh and they are holding up just fine.

Your concrete guys did a nice job on the finishing. Very clean. It looks uniformly thick too.

Loads do go straight down. Thats why you stack studs and trusses.

Using smaller dimensional lumber for headers is not necessarily a bad thing. a 2x6 vs 2x8 or 2x10 allows for 2 or 4 more inches of insulation.

You can look up the codes for headers in table 602.7 of the IRC -> https://codes.iccsafe.org/s/IRC2021P2/chapter-6-wall-construction/IRC2021P2-Pt03-Ch06-SecR602.7

Google your city for the snow load in psf. Troy MO is 20-30 PSF (I got Troy MO off the concrete trucks sign).

Your 36’ width with a snow load of 30 psf and using a double 2x6 header, you can span a max rough opening of 3’ 10”. Your windows are 32” wide, so the headers meet code.

Your 12’ garage door LVL’s have sizing tables as well. There should be writing on each of the LVL’s to tell you who made them and to what spec. You then have to look up the table off the manufacturer.
.
Based on the nail heads and their locations, there is not a 3rd 2x6 in the header. Nor any insulation or even a block. Just an air gap. Thats a missed opportunity to add strength/thermal control/added twisting resistance.

They only used a single jack stud, which is allowed in the IRC, but they have to add a framing anchor (metal plate) to the header and king stud.

I see you are using large square anchor washers. Kudo’s. They add significant strength to the holding power!

I don't see sill sealer being used. That helps to fill voids and keep the wood bottom plate from being in direct contact with concrete (making it last a lot longer). Be sure to use something like Zip liquid flash to seal that exterior OSB bottom and to eliminate the gap between the concrete and the osb/bottom plate.

The nails they used to fasten the studs and OSB to the pressure treated bottom plate need to be galvanized or stainless. Pressure treated wood will eat steel nails. When in doubt, toe nail those wall studs and re-nail the osb with galvanized nails. Btw, code for nailing sheathing is 4” on the edges and 12” in the field. Tornado fastening recommendation is 2” on the edges and 4” in the field. This is especially critical on garage door walls (Google ’Portal framing’).

I am not crazy on how they built your gable overhangs. They should have cut let-in braces or used drop trusses. Those ladder overhangs sag over time and flex when you walk on them. Lots of crews build them that way. However, I have never seen anyone sheet the rake ladder like they are doing. I hope thats not the top layer of roof sheathing and they at least go over it with sheathing.

BTW, 7/16 OSB is max rated for 24” OC roof spacing. Minimum code. Be sure they install H clips between those trusses. They help to prevent sagging and ensure proper spacing.

Over all I feel your framing crew is good. Just check on the sill sealer, nails/nailing pattern, and how they sheathed the rake.

 

[MelvinManiac]

Why would someone contract with a builder that they don't fully trust?

Why would you think I didn't trust them when I signed up? Obviously I trusted them..They have a solid reputation and good reviews. This is just the reality of the actual build process.

 

[MelvinManiac]

Day 2

 

[MelvinManiac]

Every build has its ups and downs. No building is perfect. And yours, while not exactly as you would prefer it, does look to be coming on beautifully.

There are many ways to achieve success. Yes, more rebar in a grid pattern would have been preferred. As well as pouring deeper and thicker pads with rebar grids where the lift footers will live.

But this was missed in the details/communications. It happens. Mistakes happen too. So you have to flex and use other solutions.

For example:

Switch to a 4 post lift and spread that weight out. And/or add wider steel pads to the post feet (ask your lift vender if they have them/can fasten them on/what they recommend).

Cutting concrete in the first 24hrs really helps to control where the cracks go. Really helps, but does not dictate.

Fiber mesh is not a rebar replacement. Rebar adds strength and keeps concrete together when it does crack. Mesh helps with small cracking/crack control. Lots and lots of garage floors don't have any rebar or fiber mesh and they are holding up just fine.

Your concrete guys did a nice job on the finishing. Very clean. It looks uniformly thick too.

Loads do go straight down. Thats why you stack studs and trusses.

Using smaller dimensional lumber for headers is not necessarily a bad thing. a 2x6 vs 2x8 or 2x10 allows for 2 or 4 more inches of insulation.

You can look up the codes for headers in table 602.7 of the IRC -> https://codes.iccsafe.org/s/IRC2021P2/chapter-6-wall-construction/IRC2021P2-Pt03-Ch06-SecR602.7

Google your city for the snow load in psf. Troy MO is 20-30 PSF (I got Troy MO off the concrete trucks sign).

Your 36’ width with a snow load of 30 psf and using a double 2x6 header, you can span a max rough opening of 3’ 10”. Your windows are 32” wide, so the headers meet code.

Your 12’ garage door LVL’s have sizing tables as well. There should be writing on each of the LVL’s to tell you who made them and to what spec. You then have to look up the table off the manufacturer.
.
Based on the nail heads and their locations, there is not a 3rd 2x6 in the header. Nor any insulation or even a block. Just an air gap. Thats a missed opportunity to add strength/thermal control/added twisting resistance.

They only used a single jack stud, which is allowed in the IRC, but they have to add a framing anchor (metal plate) to the header and king stud.

I see you are using large square anchor washers. Kudo’s. They add significant strength to the holding power!

I don't see sill sealer being used. That helps to fill voids and keep the wood bottom plate from being in direct contact with concrete (making it last a lot longer). Be sure to use something like Zip liquid flash to seal that exterior OSB bottom and to eliminate the gap between the concrete and the osb/bottom plate.

The nails they used to fasten the studs and OSB to the pressure treated bottom plate need to be galvanized or stainless. Pressure treated wood will eat steel nails. When in doubt, toe nail those wall studs and re-nail the osb with galvanized nails. Btw, code for nailing sheathing is 4” on the edges and 12” in the field. Tornado fastening recommendation is 2” on the edges and 4” in the field. This is especially critical on garage door walls (Google ’Portal framing’).

I am not crazy on how they built your gable overhangs. They should have cut let-in braces or used drop trusses. Those ladder overhangs sag over time and flex when you walk on them. Lots of crews build them that way. However, I have never seen anyone sheet the rake ladder like they are doing. I hope thats not the top layer of roof sheathing and they at least go over it with sheathing.

BTW, 7/16 OSB is max rated for 24” OC roof spacing. Minimum code. Be sure they install H clips between those trusses. They help to prevent sagging and ensure proper spacing.

Over all I feel your framing crew is good. Just check on the sill sealer, nails/nailing pattern, and how they sheathed the rake.

Wow thank you so much for the thoughtful reply. I truly appreciate it. I will reference it and learn what I can from your message.

I don't think they used any sealer below the sill, but there is a copper/termite barrier..Hard to see it, but can see glimmers of copper here and there.

As far as the OSB...I wish I had told them to use plywood instead. I'm sure it would have increased the cost...but so much stronger in general.

On the concrete pad...It's a good 6" thick and Bendpak doesn't specify any reinforcement needed for the 2 post lift I saw...Only 4.25" concrete 3500psi. Obviously I'll check with wherever I get the lift from before buying...and extra metal pads like you suggest would be a great idea.

Hopefully I can get an engineer out next week for an unbiased opinion.

 

[duneslider]

Wow thank you so much for the thoughtful reply. I truly appreciate it. I will reference it and learn what I can from your message.

I don't think they used any sealer below the sill, but there is a copper/termite barrier..Hard to see it, but can see glimmers of copper here and there.

As far as the OSB...I wish I had told them to use plywood instead. I'm sure it would have increased the cost...but so much stronger in general.

On the concrete pad...It's a good 6" thick and Bendpak doesn't specify any reinforcement needed for the 2 post lift I saw...Only 4.25" concrete 3500psi. Obviously I'll check with wherever I get the lift from before buying...and extra metal pads like you suggest would be a great idea.

Hopefully I can get an engineer out next week for an unbiased opinion.

I really think the framing is just fine and will be just fine. Also, 6" of concrete in a garage is going to be just fine without a ton of steel in it. You won't need larger foot plates on the lift if bendpak calls for 4.25" concrete. 6" is way overkill for a residential garage. I am happy when I find 6" slabs that are actually 6 inches in commercial warehouses. The concrete rebar is just a non-issue.

I have no idea what your agreement looks like with the GC, that's your deal but I havent seen anything that makes me really concerned especially since this is a garage. If you were like trying to build a passive house, yeah I would have some concerns but not having insulation in your headers is like a non-issue for a garage that has 3 large doors.

I could write a book about all the wrong that happened building my house and I had a great GC who I totally trusted throughout the whole process. I mean I had to stop by everyday during framing to either fix stuff myself, or leave notes for the framers, or rechalk things I could tell they had screwed up. It was unbelieveable how incompetent the framers were. Its still unclear to me if they couldn't read, were blind, or just incompetent.

 

[MelvinManiac]

I really think the framing is just fine and will be just fine. Also, 6" of concrete in a garage is going to be just fine without a ton of steel in it. You won't need larger foot plates on the lift if bendpak calls for 4.25" concrete. 6" is way overkill for a residential garage. I am happy when I find 6" slabs that are actually 6 inches in commercial warehouses. The concrete rebar is just a non-issue.

I have no idea what your agreement looks like with the GC, that's your deal but I havent seen anything that makes me really concerned especially since this is a garage. If you were like trying to build a passive house, yeah I would have some concerns but not having insulation in your headers is like a non-issue for a garage that has 3 large doors.

I could write a book about all the wrong that happened building my house and I had a great GC who I totally trusted throughout the whole process. I mean I had to stop by everyday during framing to either fix stuff myself, or leave notes for the framers, or rechalk things I could tell they had screwed up. It was unbelieveable how incompetent the framers were. Its still unclear to me if they couldn't read, were blind, or just incompetent.

Yes... At this point in my life, I'm pretty much convinced any contractor is going to do the bare minimum they can get away with. Hard to say I even blame them.. I get that it's tough work day in and day out. Someone with a trained eye who has your best interest really has to babysit every little thing if you want it done right.

 

[duneslider]

Yes... At this point in my life, I'm pretty much convinced any contractor is going to do the bare minimum they can get away with. Hard to say I even blame them.. I get that it's tough work day in and day out. Someone with a trained eye who has your best interest really has to babysit every little thing if you want it done right.

No idea what your GC was like but I hired mine for his contacts/subs, I would have ended up with a disaster trying to find subs during covid. Most of the subs were pretty solid but a couple we ended up with the B or C teams. My GC was very honest and good to work with but he was busy and building multiple very nice houses at the same time as mine and he couldn't be on the jobsite everyday, so I either had to wait several days for him to swing by and catch problems, or I had to deal with it as it happened because I had a vested interest in what was going on. We agreed going into it that I was basically going to PM the project since I lived a block away and drew the plans. I kept him in the loop of what was happening and depending on the issue either he or I would handle resolving it.

Anyway, your garage is looking great and they are making great time on it! Seems like you will be in pretty soon.

 

[bowtie327]

Roofer, sider, garage door guy… your GC is not playing around. Do they expect to finish today?

Since they didn’t use sill sealer, its all the more important you seal up the concrete to sill plate junction (and seal the bottom of that OSB). They make a tape that sticks to concrete if you’re adverse to the zip liquid flash, its real expensive though.

If you are using vinyl siding, its critical they install and overlap your wrb. Everywhere. No wood showing at all. Vinyl is installed loosely and as such, it breathes. So the backside gets wet every time it rains or snows and the wind blows. Thats bad when the sheathing is standard OSB. Bonus, you don't need a rainscreeen because of this.

What type of ventilation are you doing at the roof?

 

[MelvinManiac]

It's a ridge vent on the roof.

This is where we are after 2 days. The copper barrier for termites looks a bit small...Like for 2X4 instead of 2X6...but I dont know. Not super concerned about it. Some pretty big sill plate gaps I'll make sure get sealed one way or another.. Hopefully they will do it. Still missing a lot of anchor bolts on the back wall (where sills meet, etc), but looks like they're still working at them. Will make sure they get complete.

Overall I feel a little better..I think the headers are supported pretty good. The siding doesn't match our house perfect, but that's more on me than anyone else.

 

[bowtie327]

Progress.

Code requires an anchor bolt or screw every 6‘ max. And within 12”of each bottom plate joint. Those anchors and screws need to be 1/2” or larger in diameter and 7” minimum in depth.

That huge gap between the bottom plate and the top of your concrete wall is an Issue. How are they planning to mitigate that? Does your concrete wall have that much of a dip in it from end to end?

 

[MelvinManiac]

Progress.

Code requires an anchor bolt or screw every 6‘ max. And within 12”of each bottom plate joint. Those anchors and screws need to be 1/2” or larger in diameter and 7” minimum in depth.

That huge gap between the bottom plate and the top of your concrete wall is an Issue. How are they planning to mitigate that? Does your concrete wall have that much of a dip in it from end to end?

Yea, I think the stem wall isn't all that perfectly straight. Just wavy all around.

 

[Hooked]

Yea, I think the stem wall isn't all that perfectly straight. Just wavy all around.

Looks like there's a block wood or come other obstruction under that bottom plate..

 

[MelvinManiac]

Looks like there's a block wood or come other obstruction under that bottom plate..

Plastic shims

 

[bowtie327]

The picture shows the shim is about 3/4 of an inch. And only 1 shim in 48”.

You have a floating bottom plate and studs. That is not to code and its not safe.

You should engage your building inspector.

 

[racecougar]

The time to speak up and get this stuff corrected isn't at the very end when the GC is there to collect a check.

You should engage your building inspector.

Agreed, but per previous posts/threads, there isn't one.

 

[MelvinManiac]

The picture shows the shim is about 3/4 of an inch. And only 1 shim in 48”.

You have a floating bottom plate and studs. That is not to code and its not safe.

You should engage your building inspector.

What's the proper solution? I'm sure they're not going to lift the building back up and repour the stem wall... Just put in more shims? I imagine they're supposed to be a certain type of strength shim.. These just look like plastic. Same shims they used for the windows.

 

[racecougar]

Shimming Sill Plates

 

[MelvinManiac]

Shimming Sill Plates

Yea I did...Just asking specifically to the guy who called it out and seems to genuinely have more knowledge than all of us if he has a preferred remedy lol. Looks like options are wood, plastic, steel, or a type of non-shrink grout. I suppose I could do that myself, worst case scenario if they refuse to remedy it to my liking.

 

[tarmy]

Never seen a sill plate that poorly installed…

That holds the structure (not just down, but laterally, heaving and the studs as load is differentially applied) during shaking, wind loads, snow loads or whatever forces are applied to that structure.…and to have it up on shims is asking for issues later.

OP…not ragging on you…but someone knowledgeable needs to look at that…not just the jurisdiction inspector. I would be demanding that somebody warranty the build and guarantee that the build is going to be safe and sound for a long time.

 

[bowtie327]

My comment on engaging the building inspector is because he/she will red flag it and require an engineer to sign off on a design. Thereby the engineer would assume the liability.

I too have never seen a sill plate installed like that. Not even close. And I have never seen plastic shims used for structural support either. Aways wood or steel.

This is salvageable. I can think of several ways, none of them easy. I will not call them out for liability reasons. The GC needs to own this.

In the end, you need a sill that is in full contact with the stem wall and fastened to at least code requirements.

Also be aware, if they side this building with that big gap, you will either have an exterior exposed gap directly into your building or they will have lowered the siding covering up any chance of you sealing off that concrete to sill plate joint and protecting that osb bottom edge.

 

[racecougar]

It's a ridge vent on the roof.

Are the soffits vented to provide intake air? If not, this would be the time to correct that.

 

[MelvinManiac]

Are the soffits vented to provide intake air? If not, this would be the time to correct that.

Yes they are vented soffits.

 

[BobnCO]

Allot of hand ringing for a building that is “fine” but not perfect, consistent with ever production built home in America! It will all be fine structurally! “Where’s it gonna go”. I would go around when they’re done and foam/caulk even the smallest gaps. I sure as hell wouldn't start accusing them of doing bad work as many seem to infer.

 

[bowtie327]

Perfect is defined by the individuals preference. Building to code is the cheapest, minimally safest way to construct that you are legally allowed.
When contractors start making statements like “rebar is not needed” in a garage with a lift being installed or “loads don’t transfer straight down” when referencing framing… you then have to question everything.

If you don’t build to at least code, you are doing bad work. This is not to code.

Production built homes in America are not built with 3/4” gaps, especially at foundation to sill connections.

And to say “It will all be fine structurally” is putting the OP’s life at risk.

 

[MelvinManiac]

Yea, I appreciate all the concern...I'm somewhere in the middle of demanding perfect and having zero worries. I'm being a realist and I know it's not going to be done right all around. It just won't. It's hard enough finding anyone to do anything.

I texted the sales guy and he said he'll be here in the morning to talk about the sill plate... probably just be "we do this all the time, it's fine, it's better than your house now, etc... Best case is they'll probably jam some more plastic shims in the gap...

 

[MelvinManiac]

Well, they ended up caulking the gap between the sill. I guess they added some wood strips also?? I didn't dare ask if they were pressure treated, because I think I know the answer lol.

 

[maxpower_hd]

Maybe I missed it but is this a steel building that's going up? We are going to start looking at new "retirement" properties soon and most of them will have the land but not the shop space I desire. So I am looking into steel buildings. I went and looked at a couple of Morton buildings. Was just wondering what you decided on...

 

[racecougar]

Maybe I missed it but is this a steel building that's going up? We are going to start looking at new "retirement" properties soon and most of them will have the land but not the shop space I desire. So I am looking into steel buildings. I went and looked at a couple of Morton buildings. Was just wondering what you decided on...

It's pretty clear that it's stick built. There are a bunch of photos on this thread.

 

[AC-WC]

OK, so the concrete wall isn't flat/level. That explains why they didn't use the foam sill plate sealer and why they had to shim and caulk. Hard to tell but it looks like the sill plate is PT just a color variation???
Really makes me appreciate my friend that did mom's barn foundation!

Politely keep on them and babysit your build. Now is the time to catch these items before everything is covered and not visible.

 

[MelvinManiac]

Yea, the sill is pressure treated. I think it'll be fine... The sill plates are anchored down pretty solid and the stem wall is high off the ground, making the chance of water contacting it pretty low...So, even if they used regular wood strips for shims, I wouldn't expect them to rot for a very long time.

I had a house with rotted sills before..Built stick framing right at ground level. The areas where water came in were super rotted...All the other 2x4 sills were still fine 35 years later.

Does feel awesome to finally have this space.. Maybe I went too big! It actually gets light inside pretty good just by having this number of windows.

 

[tarmy]

Love that space…yet another issue is under those roll up doors…

I think their concrete guy is your problem as that approaches are not flat and has a gap there…

 

[MelvinManiac]

Love that space…yet another issue is under those roll up doors…

I think their concrete guy is your problem as that approaches are not flat and has a gap there…

Yea...the middle door is the worst. Not sure it's the concrete. I think the seal is wrinkled up a bit...I gotta look at it closer.

When I had new doors put on my old garage, the guy was trying to tell me the concrete wasn't flat so the door wouldn't seal (when I pointed it out to him). I said yes it is because the old door sealed perfect..Then he fixed it. Hopefully this can be fixed..not super worried.

Electric guy coming tomorrow. Running new line from pole.

 

[Metal-Marc]

Does feel awesome to finally have this space.. Maybe I went too big!

No worries. This shop will be packed with stuff to the roof in less than five years.

 

[Mattilac]

I feel for you, OP. Like you, I care about the details. I ended up having to build my garage myself just so I knew every little thing I could control was done right. Left the concrete to the 'pros' and like you, it's not perfect...

 

[Metal-Marc]

It actually gets light inside pretty good just by having this number of windows.

Yes! Natural light is great to have in a shop/garage. I would have the windows in the garage doors sit lower. Fun to see who is coming.

 

[MelvinManiac]

Yes! Natural light is great to have in a shop/garage. I would have the windows in the garage doors sit lower. Fun to see who is coming.

Yes! That's what I also wanted...but wasn't sure if it might look goofy being down to the next panel lower...

 

[duneslider]

Yea...the middle door is the worst. Not sure it's the concrete. I think the seal is wrinkled up a bit...I gotta look at it closer.

When I had new doors put on my old garage, the guy was trying to tell me the concrete wasn't flat so the door wouldn't seal (when I pointed it out to him). I said yes it is because the old door sealed perfect..Then he fixed it. Hopefully this can be fixed..not super worried.

Electric guy coming tomorrow. Running new line from pole.

I have found the sills that come on the door are terrible. They come all smashed into a box or bag and never seem to do a good job of sealing the bottom. I had to replace both of mine with better quality materials.

 

[racecougar]

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