Horrible Kijiji Tool Box Experience!!

[ptschram]

I have heard of this and dont understand how its legal...The parts manager where I work used to be a Matco dealer and he claims to have gone in and just grabbed peoples toolboxes full of everything and putting the box right onto his liftgate. He claims it was more incentive to the customer to make right on the deal. Personally I think he is a scoundrel. He told me he once reposessed a box full of tools and kept it over $250 the dude still owed on the $4000 loan. He is probably just blowing smoke up my *** but if this were happening to me (which it wouldnt I am known with the tool trucks as being a great customer.) I would be at that MFers house beating his ******* door down because thats my livelyhood.

I knew a guy whose ex-wife tried to have his tools attached and seized but Indiana law apparently says it can't be done to a tradesman.

I wonder how it's handled with a court order for repossession.

 

[ishiboo]

I have heard of this and dont understand how its legal...The parts manager where I work used to be a Matco dealer and he claims to have gone in and just grabbed peoples toolboxes full of everything and putting the box right onto his liftgate. He claims it was more incentive to the customer to make right on the deal. Personally I think he is a scoundrel. He told me he once reposessed a box full of tools and kept it over $250 the dude still owed on the $4000 loan. He is probably just blowing smoke up my *** but if this were happening to me (which it wouldnt I am known with the tool trucks as being a great customer.) I would be at that MFers house beating his ******* door down because thats my livelyhood.

That's illegal.

 

[Al Bundy]

A purchase money lienholder (here Snap-on) with a properly perfected security interest, (a proper filing with the state) takes priority over all, including a bona fide purchaser for value, which you would even have a hard time proving you were, given your story and the lack of a serial number.

Snap on would have to prove up the chain of custody and ownership of the box by testimony of the selling dealer, and the subsequent purchasers as well as anyone else with knowledge, like shop owners, or co-workers, for example.

Prime example of why everyone hates lawyers. In the first paragraph the OP can't prove that he is a bona fide purchaser because of the lack of a serial number. In the second paragraph Snap on has no trouble proving it's the same box despite the lack of a serial number.

All the talk about the UCC is fun and educational, but the OP is Canadian. None of that applies to him. Whatever may happen in a liberal CA court of law is meaningless.

 

[Squints]

My thoughts are, he knew it was probably stolen, or something ain't right. Last thing you want to do is call SO and say, hey I think I bought your stolen box... If you "stole" it like you did, STFU about it and enjoy your new box for a steal. If you brag about it, be prepared to meet the other side. Sure, getting a lawyer will get you the ability to keep it. I find it ironic that if your buddy wasn't around to talk you out of giving it back, then this post would have read, snappy dealer took my possibly stolen box, What do I do now? Know when to clam up.

Wow you are way off.. I didn't want to buy a stolen or liened box, that's why I called MY Snappy dealer to make sure of this.

Just because someone removed a sticker serial # doesn't mean it's stolen.

I didn't go shooting my mouth off about my new box either.... This OTHER Snap On dealer just showed up out of the blue...
I have my suspicions of where he knew to look as well....

I didn't want to be in this situation, and tried not to be.....last thing I want to be thinking all day is when Snap On is gonna show up and take my tool box...


Sent from my iPhone

 

[kythri]

Engrave your name on the box. If the other dealer shows up again, trespass him from the property (inform him that he is not to return, or you'll press charges for trespassing). If he wants the box, he needs to prove that he has any right in the world to take it.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

canada will probably lock you up for throwing the dealer out of the shop

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

Wow you are way off.. I didn't want to buy a stolen or liened box, that's why I called MY Snappy dealer to make sure of this.

Just because someone removed a sticker serial # doesn't mean it's stolen.

I didn't go shooting my mouth off about my new box either.... This OTHER Snap On dealer just showed up out of the blue...
I have my suspicions of where he knew to look as well....

I didn't want to be in this situation, and tried not to be.....last thing I want to be thinking all day is when Snap On is gonna show up and take my tool box...


Sent from my iPhone

trade all your tools in at mac or matco and keep the box

 

[Davefr]

I don't really see how any SO dealer can be involved in any of this other then to communicate to SO. The lien issue is between the issuer of the credit (ie SO Corp), the original buyer and possibly the OP. (however it depends on Canadian law, UCC is US law)

SO dealers are independent business owners and not agents of SO Corp.

If Canada law allows for repossesion of the property then it's between SO Corp. and the OP.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

Low and behold there was a blue KRL7023 with a Stainless top for $5000!!
So I email the guy with the usual questions...."is it stolen, any liens,what kind of shape is it in? ect....

Within 15 mins I got an email back saying that the box is in great shape,he was the original owner and he peeled the serial # off because he didn't like stickers (red flag) NO liens and
he could also do a better price at $4k

After a little bartering I managed to get him down to 2500$ and a case of beer....some people desperately need cash right?

My thoughts are, he knew it was probably stolen, or something ain't right.

He knew it was shady. People don't drop down from 5 grand to $2,500 with a little bartering and a case of beer! That's laughable.

And peeling off the serial number sticker b/c he didn't like stickers? C'mon!

Perfect example of 'if it's too good to be true it probably is'

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

are serial # stamped on the old tool boxes ?

 

[ishiboo]

He knew it was shady. People don't drop down from 5 grand to $2,500 with a little bartering and a case of beer! That's laughable.

And peeling off the serial number sticker b/c he didn't like stickers? C'mon!

Perfect example of 'if it's too good to be true it probably is'

Shady yes, but sometimes those are hard to pass up. There are many legitimate reasons for people to have to sell something in a hurry, and so sometimes people sell stuff for how much money they need to get it quick and not how much it's worth, which could take time.

It sounds like by calling a Snap-on dealer, due diligence was done to lower the suspicions he had, even though it wasn't everything he could have done given all the time in the world.

Peeling off a sticker does not surprise me in the world of Snap-on at all.

 

[Brad54]

He knew it was shady. People don't drop down from 5 grand to $2,500 with a little bartering and a case of beer! That's laughable.

And peeling off the serial number sticker b/c he didn't like stickers? C'mon!

Perfect example of 'if it's too good to be true it probably is'

People barter down all the time. In these times, they'll barter a LOT because people need money.

If he had the thing for sale, needed money badly, and a guy says he'll be there with cash-in-hand, it's a done deal.

I see it all the time at my swap meet... I know a lot of guys who have bought things I looked at, for half or less of what the seller told me. Difference was, the guys had bigger balls than I do and low-balled him hard, and they pulled the green out of their pocket.

Trust me--this is a monthly occurrence at my swap meet.

Hell, I watched one guy beat another guy down to 30 percent of what he was asking for a Ford I-beam axle, spring, spindles, disc brakes and split wishbones.
And then right in front of the guy, he turned around and sold the axle to someone else for more than he paid for all of it!

Never, ever assume that just because someone will take way less than something is worth, that it's stolen.

He might just need the money.
Or he might just be tired of dealing with it and all the tire-kickers, and wants it gone.


-Brad

 

[Squints]

Unfortunately for me I think the guy that sold it to me knew exactly what he was doing....He probably knew there was a lien on it and lied to me.

After all the story the SO guy told me is that he had bought it off of his co worker the day before for $2000 then he sold it to me for $2500. He made his quick cash by screwing me.

I have confronted the seller about my suspicions but go figure he flat out denies any prior knowledge of the lien...even though apparently he works in the bay next to the original dead beat.
Getting my money back is not going to happen. If it did I would gladly give the box back so that nobody gets screwed badly...mainly the franchisee.

I asked the police about charging the seller with fraud but again they said the whole situation is a civil matter and "good luck".

 

[Rickster]

Very messy indeed...

 

[archirelic]

Still confused as to why it should matter. It's not a registered item, such as a car or trailer, so even if the seller still had a lien on it, it should be on him. Then again, I'm not uber-familiar with the laws pertaining to that sort of stuff, especially when it deals with our neighbors up north.

 

[JASTECH]

I was wondering how long or how much the original owner has paid to SO for the box? Then you offering to pay as a used box "which it is" They should have did that! It does not cost what they charge + acceptible profit. Something to think about, and SO should be ashamed for their greed.

 

[BigWil]

canada will probably lock you up for throwing the dealer out of the shop

That's about the most ignorant thing I've heard anyone say on this forum. Anyone can "trespass" anyone off their property. Make sure it's in writing, and send a copy to your local PD. Most keep a file of them, so they can refer to them without contacting the owner of the property.

This is a civil matter, it is not criminal. Snapon will need to go after the original purchaser for the money. If they want it bad enough, they will have to use a) collection agencies, or b) sue him, and garnishee his wages to cover it. Don't give up that box to anyone without a legal document ordering you to give it up.

 

[G_P]

i find it amazing that a toolbox that costs as much as a car does not have the serial number stamped into the box or at least stamped into a tag that is riveted to the box like a VIN tag on a car.

Seems like its time for people to start stamping their serial numbers into the back of their boxes since a theif could just steal it and peel off a sticker leaving no proof that its your box.

 

[SpiderGearsMan]

That's about the most ignorant thing I've heard anyone say on this forum. Anyone can "trespass" anyone off their property. Make sure it's in writing, and send a copy to your local PD. Most keep a file of them, so they can refer to them without contacting the owner of the property.

This is a civil matter, it is not criminal. Snapon will need to go after the original purchaser for the money. If they want it bad enough, they will have to use a) collection agencies, or b) sue him, and garnishee his wages to cover it. Don't give up that box to anyone without a legal document ordering you to give it up.

you gotta live there , looks like your cool PM is getting your civil liberties back

lighten up Francis

 

[wornoutoldman]

There is NO way it can be positively identified as stolen. The original purchaser is responsible for any balanced owed. Enjoy your new box.

 

[Freeborn John]

i find it amazing that a toolbox that costs as much as a car does not have the serial number stamped into the box or at least stamped into a tag that is riveted to the box like a VIN tag on a car.

Seems like its time for people to start stamping their serial numbers into the back of their boxes since a theif could just steal it and peel off a sticker leaving no proof that its your box.

They used to be stamped with a number on the back, I can't imagine why they stopped doing it, it's a thieves charter.

 

[MrMark]

Prime example of why everyone hates lawyers. In the first paragraph the OP can't prove that he is a bona fide purchaser because of the lack of a serial number. In the second paragraph Snap on has no trouble proving it's the same box despite the lack of a serial number.

All the talk about the UCC is fun and educational, but the OP is Canadian. None of that applies to him. Whatever may happen in a liberal CA court of law is meaningless.

First of all, even if the OP was a BFP it wouldn't matter because the lien is not extinguished by a sale to a third party, even a BFP for value. And, if you can't understand the difference between a person having a tough time establishing he is a BFP when the box has no serial number and the rest of his sordid story vs another person trying to establish that the essentially stolen goods are his then . . . you fill in the rest. Perhaps you would feel differently if you loaned someone money to buy something and they went and sold off the collateral after ripping off the serial number leaving you with no recourse to get the goods back. One big sign of a stolen item is a missing serial number, the fact that it was missing tends to support the purchaser not being a BFP, AND is not necessary to prove up the identity of the stolen item. It would be nice to have but thieves tend to take them off! Get it?

Second of all, where I live isn't particularly liberal, in fact most consider SoCal very conservative (at least Orange, Riverside and San Diego counties), much more so than that bastion of conservatism . . . New York. Moreover, it would take a VERY LIBERAL - almost a crying LIBERAL - to side with a guy who knew he was almost certainly buying a stolen toolbox over the company with a lawful lien that extended credit so some poor SOB could buy a toolbox.

I have no idea about what would happen in Canada. Some of it is French in fact and would have laws that would be found most bizarre. I was posting about what happens in states that have adopted the UCC into their commercial codes, which happens to be most if not all of the United States.

 

[Davefr]

Let's assume this were to happen under US UCC law and everything you say is correct.

What exactly can SO Corp. Credit do from a practical standpoint. How do they repo a box that they can't confirm they have a legitimate lien to (ie no serial no.)? How do they physically remove it from the shop?

It seems as though their only recourse is thru the courts.

Are they going to dispatch a team of lawyers to try and get court orders and repo the box?

I can't imagine a local SO dealer would want to touch this issue since it's between SO Credit, the original buyer and the new purchaser.

Just curious.

 

[MrMark]

You raise good practical points. If the value is enough and Snap-on is determined enough, they would foreclose on the box by filing a case against the OP to repossess. They would have to prove chain of custody and then it becomes an issue of proof. The OP has already made admissions to the Snap-on man and on here that are non-hearsay that would be used against him.

The original attempt at repossession could have been achieved by the dealer if he was sure he had the right box. If he had it wrong, there would be repercussions, that's why he hesitated. There is no requirement of notice to some third party that buys a box with a lien. There is no way practically to give notice without potentially harming the repossessor's ability to repossess.

The local SO dealer acts as an agent for Snap-on credit. I imagine it's part of his job. Maybe this was on truck credit too, we don't know.

In this case, there really isn't a lot of uncertainty over the box. We have the original owner who defaulted. We have the guy in the bay next door who bought the box and the OP who then bought the box from the guy next door. Three people who aren't hard to find who have essentially admitted all the necessary facts. Open and shut case. I would have advised an attempt at non-judicial recovery and if that fails then a case.

 

[Squints]

Fine and dandy mrmark. But what protects the good faith buyer like me? I know it is buyer beware but possession is 9/10ths of the law.

So bottom line is the deadbeat and the guy who sold it to me are off the hook (word is the deadbeat is filing for bankruptcy)
And I'm out my money and have no tool box?
Just because the snap on guy sees a toolbox that he "thinks" is the one?

Doubtful.


Sent from my iPhone

 

[MrMark]

I think what most are missing here is that the law establishes a system of recording liens so that there are no hidden claims. The law requires a purchaser to check for liens before buying something to be sure that the goods are free and clear. Once the lien is perfected (made of record) then a subsequent purchaser cannot have rights superior to the lienholder with regard to possession because of the open recording system. People here just don't seem to want to check with the official state recording office, and I wouldn't blame them for small stuff that likely isn't encumbered. But, for the big stuff they should do the appropriate homework and calling the Snap-on man is almost less than worthless when the issue is about security interests properly recorded with the secretary of state.

 

[MrMark]

Fine and dandy mrmark. But what protects the good faith buyer like me? I know it is buyer beware but possession is 9/10ths of the law.

So bottom line is the deadbeat and the guy who sold it to me are off the hook (word is the deadbeat is filing for bankruptcy)
And I'm out my money and have no tool box?

Doubtful.


Sent from my iPhone

Look, you did a bunch of stuff wrong so far, including talking too much if you were intent on keeping the box. If you were OK with transaction - even though you admitted on here that you had strong indications something was amiss - then you should have not talked so much. You let them prove the case out of your own mouth.

Canada may be completely different and you may be right that Snap-on will let this go given the values involved. They essentially made their attempt and screwed it up. They moved too slow and you still have the box. Now it would take a court order of repossession which they may not pursue.

 

[MrMark]

Fine and dandy mrmark. But what protects the good faith buyer like me? I know it is buyer beware but possession is 9/10ths of the law.

So bottom line is the deadbeat and the guy who sold it to me are off the hook (word is the deadbeat is filing for bankruptcy)
And I'm out my money and have no tool box?
Just because the snap on guy sees a toolbox that he "thinks" is the one?

Doubtful.


Sent from my iPhone

In the US what protects the good faith buyer is the recording statute. That enables you to check to see if there are any liens on the goods. If there is no security interest recorded properly (even if one exists by contract) you are protected. You are considered to have constructive notice of the recorded liens.

 

[Squints]

I gave the seller the benefit of doubt. I had his home address and phone number. He was friendly and appeared to have nothing to hide. I asked him if there were any liens and if it was stolen. And the answers were a strong no.
I didn't suspect something was "up" just that he needed the money badly


Sent from my iPhone

 

[MrMark]

Live and learn. I hope you come out OK. If repossessed you would go against your seller to unwind the deal. Keep contact info on this guy and whatever else you can.

How much was the new Tool Box that you were considering?

You paid 2500 for this one, so what is the difference? What is the condition of the box you purchased and the age, just curious?

 

[MrMark]

Squints, I found this, I don't know how accurate it is but it seems reasonable:

Filing “UCCs” in Canada
AUGUST 28, 2009
tags: Canada, Canadian Filing, UCC, UCC Filing

Did you know that you can file a UCC in Canada? Okay, so it’s technically not a UCC since the Uniform Commercial Code system is an American one, but Canada does have a system called the Personal Property Security Registration System which is analogous to and based upon our UCC system.

This system, much like our Uniform Commercial Code, records and reproduces info regarding loans where collateral is used to secure the loan. This system also records and reproduces information regarding repair and storage liens.

If you need to file a financing statement, you will have to complete and submit a document, which has to be done electronically, to the Companies and Personal Property Security Branch of the Ministry of Government Services. Within 30 days of registering the financing statement, the lender must provide the borrower with details of the registration so that the borrower can review and advise of any errors as necessary.

Unlike the US, where financing statements are active for 5 years unless a continuation is filed, the lenders must select the time period for the registration, which can be for as long as 25 years, or for a perpetual period (note: this only pertains to business loans; consumer loans can only register for up to 5 years at one time). Once the consumer loan is repaid, the lender registers a “discharge” within 30 days, similar to our termination filings.

With proper licensing, both PPSA searches and registrations can be accomplished via remote database access. Many public records firms here in the United States have achieved authorization and can complete your Canadian requests efficiently and affordably.

http://blog.ficoso.com/2009/08/28/filing-uccs-in-canada/

 

[ptschram]

Would one have to search UCC filings in every state, or is it universally recorded?

I regularly call the local sheriff to have VINs checked and they claim to need the last state ti was titled in to run a stolen vehicle check on it. While that sounds fishy, they're here to help me and I (for a change) don't want to antagonize the policeman.

I have p[aid Snap-On several times to file UCC paperwork, it's a line item on the loan.

 

[Davefr]

The local SO dealer acts as an agent for Snap-on credit. I imagine it's part of his job. Maybe this was on truck credit too, we don't know.

I think the vast majority of SO dealers are independent franchisee's. (not agents of SO)

Unless the dealer had his own truck account loan then I can't imagine a SO dealer would want to touch this issue. (unless they were bound to help as part of the written franchise agreement).

A dealer waltzing into a shop trying to move a 800lb box and the ensuing arguments with the possessor (and possibly his buddies) does not exactly convey a image I would want as a salesman. (especially if I had no financial stake in the deal).

 

[MrMark]

all good points. I don't know enough about the franchise agreement to know. Maybe a dealer would respond. It may be that when a dealer sells a box using Snap-on credit that he agrees to act as agent with regard to the transaction and the payments. Haven't we read on here about tool box payments being made to the truck driver who acts as the collection point? Maybe I am not remembering correctly.

But yeah, I agree, if repossession would not be fun especially in a small shop and most dealers probably wouldn't want any part of it unless it was their money or they had to do it.

As to the searching, I would search the last known state, and find a search company that could essentially run all the states electronically.

I think the link I posted was a search company.

The problem here is the lack of a serial number so I don't know how the search could have been done. You could run the name of the guy you were buying from but that wouldn't tell the whole story obviously.

I wouldn't have purchased this box for that reason. No serial number equals problems and not a safe purchase on a relatively new item within the typical financing period.

 

[MrMark]

BTW, there are several states where what the defaulting original purchaser did is a crime:

THis is Kansas. Texas has similar I remember from the past.

Chapter 21: Crimes And Punishments
PART II.--PROHIBITED CONDUCT
Article 37: Crimes Against Property
Statute 21-3734: Impairing a security interest. (a) Impairing a security interest is:
(1) Damaging, destroying or concealing any personal property subject to a security interest with intent to defraud the secured party;

(2) selling, exchanging or otherwise disposing of any personal property subject to a security interest without the written consent of the secured party, where such sale, exchange or other disposition is not authorized by the secured party under the terms of the security agreement; or

(3) failure to account to the secured party for the proceeds of the sale, exchange or other disposition of any personal property subject to a security interest, where such sale, exchange or other disposition is authorized and such accounting for proceeds is required by the secured party under the terms of the security agreement or otherwise.

(b) (1) Impairing a security interest is a severity level 7, nonperson felony when the personal property subject to the security interest is of the value of $25,000 or more and is subject to a security interest of $25,000 or more.

(2) Impairing a security interest is a severity level 9, nonperson felony when the personal property subject to the security interest is of the value of at least $1,000 and is subject to a security interest of at least $1,000 and either the value of the property or the security interest is less than $25,000.

(3) Impairing a security interest is a class A nonperson misdemeanor when the personal property subject to the security interest is of the value of less than $1,000, or of the value of $1,000 or more but subject to a security interest of less than $1,000.

History: L. 1969, ch. 180, § 21-3734; L. 1987, ch. 109, § 1; L. 1992, ch. 298, § 50; L. 1993, ch. 291, § 85; L. 1994, ch. 291, § 33; L. 1995, ch. 251, § 13; L. 2006, ch. 194, § 19; May 25.


In states that have this law then buying a box could be receiving stolen property depending on the buyer's knowledge and state of mind.

I wouldn't fool with this stuff.

 

[ptschram]

I've had several loans through Snap-On. When I moved, the dealer that serviced my new employer accepted my payments and had the note transferred to him to act as collection agent.

I was gonna say that in any state it would be criminal, but violating terms of a contract are most often seen as civil infractions rather than criminal acts.

 

[Squints]

As a person who always pays my bills and appreciates the right to be able to have credit I agree this should be criminal.

But put yourself in my shoes, without the should've done this or that's.

All I can do is fight to keep this box that I bought in good faith or spend more money in court to try and get my $ back.....which isn't likely to happen or it'll cost more then the box is worth...


Sent from my iPhone

 

[MrMark]

Squints, I thought you talked to a Canadian lawyer and they said you are fine? You said there was some provision of Canadian law that lets you keep the box? This may not be worth it to Snap on to mess with. How much are they owed? Can you make a deal of partial satisfaction on the original loan and get the number restored and still come out ahead? Maybe your lawyer can negotiate a decent outcome with Snap-on if there is still fear that this is an ongoing matter. Can you get anything out of the seller? Does he have any assets that could be attached? Is Snap-on really going to come after you on repo? Have your lawyer talk to them to see where this is going.

Or was the original box purchase on truck credit?

Best of luck with this you seem like a decent enough fellow.

 

[Davefr]

All I can do is fight to keep this box that I bought in good faith or spend more money in court to try and get my $ back.....which isn't likely to happen or it'll cost more then the box is worth...


Sent from my iPhone

Why do you think you'll have to fight it out??

Why don't you just lay low for awhile and see if SO makes the next move. My gut feel is that they'll turn the original buyer over to collections and not bother with any 3rd party box repo. efforts. (a repo will be costly for SO in time and effort)

Don't say anything or do anything unless it's based on a legal action or requirement to do so.

 

[Squints]

Why do you think you'll have to fight it out??

Why don't you just lay low for awhile and see if SO makes the next move. My gut feel is that they'll turn the original buyer over to collections and not bother with any 3rd party box repo. efforts. (a repo will be costly for SO in time and effort)

Don't say anything or do anything unless it's based on a legal action or requirement to do so.

Honestly I hope that I don't have to but if I do I will.
I have been informed not to worry but there is always a little bit at the back of my mind.

That being said my boss knows the story and wont let them on the property again without the proper legal documentation.