What do the Chinese think about tool brands?

[signcrafter]

Without turning this into a brand war or political.

With all the tool brand wars on this board and how most of us take pride in American made tools and have various opinions of other COO tools as to quality and value. Anyone know what is available as to tools in China? What do they consider the "best". Do they have choices of cheap to expensive tools and junk to quality tools like we do here? Just curious on how the Chinese think about tools. Not saying all Chinese tools are junk, but most would argue that American made tools are "better" than a Chinese, like the craftsman thread. Do chinese have pride and say "Chinese made tools are better because they are made in China" like we do about American made tools?

I know this thread will probably turn into another arguement and that is not my intent. I was just curious on what goes through a Chinese man's head when they go to buy a tool. What their thoughts are on quality, price, value, COO, etc?

 

[1982fxr]

I have no clue, but would think that a very small percentage of chinese could afford to seek out and purchase USA made tools. From what little I've read it sounds like they like American products and consider them to be of high quality, but that is not directed at tools specifically

 

[Bill R.]

I know some chinese who are working here temporarily and they want only the best, such as metabo,festool, fluke..... don't know any who are mechanics though, only electronics and woodworking hobbyists.... In china Buicks Jeeps and Chrysler are very popular too.

 

[signcrafter]

I know some chinese who are working here temporarily and they want only the best, such as metabo,festool, fluke..... don't know any who are mechanics though, only electronics and woodworking hobbyists.... In china Buicks Jeeps and Chrysler are very popular too.

Does Buick, Jeep, or Chrysler have plants in China where they make the Chinese version of these or are they made in America and exported to China?

 

[Bill R.]

Does Buick, Jeep, or Chrysler have plants in China where they make the Chinese version of these or are they made in America and exported to China?

Looks like both, as seen here

 

[RedFordTruck]

Does Buick, Jeep, or Chrysler have plants in China where they make the Chinese version of these or are they made in America and exported to China?

GM has a Chinese division.

 

[RKA]

I'll go out on a limb and guess that they don't really care much about the quality as long as it gets the job done and it's cheap (which would probably rule out imported stuff). I haven't been to China though, but I've made numerous trips to India. My observations are that laborers generally will use whatever they are provided and make do, or buy the least expensive thing that gets the job done. Time is less of a factor than expense. Power tools in particular are much less common than they are here. Labor is cheap (times are changing though). Why buy an expensive power tool when a few people could do the same job without the added expense? I took a trip there in 1999 and distinctly remember an intersection where they were excavating. Several men were inside the 10ft x 10ft pit filling copper pots with dirt and handing off to several outside the pit who would move it 20 feet away. No power equipment in sight. Time? It takes as long as it takes, that's it.

Now with all that said, I'm sure there is an exception, and I'm sure there are high end contractors that prefer to use quality tools wherever they might originate from, but those folks are probably the rare exception.

 

[CloseEnough]

Chinese people Don't make crappy stuff because they want to. They do it because Americans pay them to do it.

 

[HandyManny]

I'm sure as an industrial giant, the Chinese use various tool and equipment, many of which are made by their industry in China. I'm sure the Chinese factories are planty capable of producing good quality and I'm sure they do produce certain goods that are good. I fail to believe that when they need a wrench it's not Chinese made. When they need a vise it's surely Chinese made, or when they need an anvil it's gotta be Chinese made.

GM and Chrysler manufacture automotive vehicles there, in fact when Chrysler stopped producing the Jeep 4.0L Inline 6 cylinder engine, it was the Chinese who bought all the tooling and now make that engine themselves. I guess they knew a good thing when they saw it.

I appreciate and understand American pride, but you all have to keep in mind that it was Henry Ford here in the USA who created mass production assembly line menality of manufacturing. Like I've said before, we haven't always made the best, we just were proud of what we produced. And at one time the USA was capable of and did manufacture some extreamly high-quality products. But that's not to say that Made in USA always meant the best. Most Americans from those days couldn't afford the best of most things. A lot of what we did make was pretty damn good though, but we didn't know much anything else except what this country made. Think of most Americans back in the golden days as an insular people living a very insulated life.

 

[HandyManny]

Chinese people Don't make crappy stuff because they want to. They do it because Americans pay them to do it.

Haven't heard anything more true all day.

 

[signcrafter]

Chinese people Don't make crappy stuff because they want to. They do it because Americans pay them to do it.

I understand you point but that wasn't what I was getting at. I was wondering what the thought process is on the average Chinese guy's tool purchase. For example, if I need a ratchet, socket, specialty tool, etc. I wiegh my options. Think about how often I will use it, cost, COO, value, quality, etc. Because I have options ranging from Snap on to the dollar bin at the hardware store or HF. I take all those things into consideration when I need a new tool for something. Does the average Chinese guy take these things into consideration when they need a new tool? Do they even have all these options or is there only one tool store in town? I don't know but all these COO and brand wars got me thinking about what a Chinese guy might think when he needs a new screwdriver or ratchet.

 

[lwlobo]

I've heard anecdotally that the growing upper and middle classes in China prefer quality imported goods to the cheaply-made-for-export Chinese goods when possible. Tools would seem to an area this would apply especially, but that is speculation from biased GJ perspective!

 

[HandyManny]

I've heard anecdotally that the growing upper and middle classes in China prefer quality imported goods to the cheaply-made-for-export Chinese goods when possible. Tools would seem to an area this would apply especially, but that is speculation from biased GJ perspective!

That might be true, but I think a lot of it all has to do with how European and US made products are marketed around the world, rather than the quality. Not to say that European and US tools aren't good, but you have to take into account the bias perception many people have about certain things.

Lost of Chinese women won't be seen with anyone other than a white westerner guy either. It's all in how they percieve things too.

 

[CloseEnough]

From my experience I've noticed that chinese people have a lot of pride. Like even when you get chinese food they go the extra mile and cut up little cardboard reinforcements for the bottom of the bag and give you the food in containers that are reusable and nicer than the stuff you see in the store.

I think they get a bad rep from making inferior products that someone in America sent them the blue prints to make, but in reality quality is more important to them than it seems.

 

[HandyManny]

From my experience I've noticed that chinese people have a lot of pride. Like even when you get chinese food they go the extra mile and cut up little cardboard reinforcements for the bottom of the bag and give you the food in containers that are reusable and nicer than the stuff you see in the store.

I think they get a bad rep from making inferior products that someone in America sent them the blue prints to make, but in reality quality is more important to them than it seems.

We used to think the same of Japan too. In the 1950's, '60s, and '70s here in the USA many Americans had a very bad impression of all Japanese made goods. Little did we know just how excellent the Japanese were at making many things. We really didn't start to find that out until Honda, Toyota, and Sony gained a big foot hold in the market.

 

[Steevo]

I have no clue, but would think that a very small percentage of chinese could afford to seek out and purchase USA made tools. . . .

This morning (6/19/2012), it was reported on CNBC.com that there are now more millionaires in Asia than in the USA.

. . . The times, they are a-changin' . . .

 

[2oolhound]

I had one close friend who was chinese or at least I thought he was a friend. Eventually I found out he subscribed to the age old adage "keep your friends close and your enemies closer) and I eventually noticed he was undermining all my business ventures as we were competitors in the same business. He resented me because our grandfathers levied a $100.00 head tax on all chinese immigrating to Canada, something not levied on any other race. He resented us for the centuries the caucasian races exploited china but those in control saw they could climb out of their hole in the world monetary system by our excessive lifestyles and consumeristic habits, one nickel at a time. What I learned from him is he had a huge ego and sincerely believed anything a caucasian could do an asian could do "better, faster, cheaper". That was his motto, "better, faster, cheaper".

They only build the cheap stuff because the walmarts and other mass marketers want it so they can sell tools so ridiculously cheap that masses of people will buy it on a large scale. They will do anything to **** money out of our pockets. What ever works. Eventually they will reverse engineer all the best tools and use one upmanship as their cause to out do anything we have. Their top tool lines will be used with pride in their own car repair centers and industrial plants by proud mechanics. They will be happy if we can't afford their good stuff.

Take a look at china's commitment to the olympic games and the number of gold medals they've been winning. They selectively breed and train their athletes from children in controlled environments with intense day to day routines. These athletes are becoming so specialized they don't have a life outside of their national training routines.

We need to stop thinking of china as miles of miles of sweat shops. They have a gambling mecca larger than Las Vegas, the 3 gorges dam is the world's largest power dam, the CCTV Headquarters bldg. was an engineering feat that couldn't be duplicated here in a city like new york. Chinese citizens growing up in metropolises like Shanghai and Beijing will demand nothing but the best and they will insist it is made in china.

Sorry for the rant but this is my take on the situation.

 

[2oolhound]

Lost of Chinese women won't be seen with anyone other than a white westerner guy either. It's all in how they percieve things too.

I live 1/2 a block from a very classy chinese restaurant. Some friends and I went there a while back and there was a wedding reception happening. They sat us in a separate section. My friends wife commented on the fact that out of 200 or so people at the reception there was only one caucasian guy there, just one mixed marriage in the room. If we hadn't come in he would have been the only caucasian there. It sure felt strange.

 

[richfinn]

Look at those ancient Chinese "Kung Fu" Swords if you dont believe China can do quality metal work

 

[bobcatdan]

I would guess chicoms can built stuff to what ever standard they want. Not everything can be hf quality or why would we fear any of their milatary equipment. I take pride in the USA, but we are not the only ones who can built the best of the best, even though I want to think that.

 

[RECox286]

People are people no matter where. I'll bet that if the average poster here on GJ

had as little as the average cHINEZE worker gets to try and exist on, he/she would be

happy to have even the least desireable of anything, rather than nothing. I believe

that the average cHINEZE citizen really gets no say about what is produced, or how, and

I'm sure that my opinion is biased (just like most, if not all, of the posters here).

Uncle Bob

 

[Link-Belt]

I wonder if the GM and Chrisler plants in China design there vehicles with slanted headlights.

I know bad joke.

 

[vamcaptain]

America needs to focus on getting our manufacturing back from Asia and lowering our debt load substantially. There is nothing wrong with having a 9-5 production job making things.

All good points, though. Interesting discussion.

 

[BrokewrenchLS1]

Look at those ancient Chinese "Kung Fu" Swords if you dont believe China can do quality metal work

Outside of mass-scale production, there's a lot of Chinese stuff made in small shops that's of very good quality. Some of the best headphone amps and digital to analog converters I know of come from small businesses in China that are dead-set on making the best product they can.

Historically, China has been capable of some extremely impressive things; it seems like they really only got into their modern stereotype after Mao took over and Communism came in full-swing. Compare it to Russia, and it's the same sort of thing - a massive push into "everyone is an equal comrade" mediocrity and large-scale industrial manufacturing. The US had a similar period itself during the Industrial Revolution, but we rolled through it and came out successful. Russia didn't. China is still up in the air, but I think the accessibility of social media and the growing "net consciousness" over there will be the determining factor that Russia didn't have at a crucial point.

 

[JerseyBoatBuilder]

One of the cable news channels had a show about this recently interviewing Chinese and Taiwanese

Believe it or not the Chinese are willing to pay top dollar for U.S. products because they believe the quality is there..
If not U.S. products they prefer Taiwan products over their own..
One reason is they even claim the products they make in China are different and better quality for the U.S. market than the products made for the China Market because of different standards..

The Taiwanese even prefer U.S. product over their own but also see China products as bottom of the barrel..
They either prefer U.S. made or next go to Taiwan, Japan Made..

The Chinese are basically scumbags in most of their market if you do not make it there you can not sell it there or participate in their economy So **** them..

The U.S. made market over seas is basically there but some of these scumbag countries limit the amount of U.S. imported product for their market..

So much for free trade..

You guys are missing the one part of the big picture why all of the products are getting out sourced over sea's and that is to participate in these economies which are projected to be larger than the U.S. Economy they have to be made there..

 

[transittech]

Interesting discussion so far, keep it coming!

 

[signcrafter]

It would be great if we had a member or a few members that are from China or have lived there and have some experience with what's available and how things are over there.

Does China make "better" quality tools to sell in their own country than the quality of the majority that come to the US?

 

[BrokewrenchLS1]

One of the cable news channels had a show about this recently interviewing Chinese and Taiwanese

Believe it or not the Chinese are willing to pay top dollar for U.S. products because they believe the quality is there..
If not U.S. products they prefer Taiwan products over their own..
One reason is they even claim the products they make in China are different and better quality for the U.S. market than the products made for the China Market because of different standards..

One thing somewhat related to this that most people wouldn't likely know about is that a lot of products sold in China require a CCC mark - essentially, the Chinese government's version of the UL, CSA, TUV, etc mark. However, the CCC "lab" in China is completely government-run, and while they do allow a very small number of private labs to do testing for the CCC mark, it's rare. Easy to tie up a foreign company's product in testing indefinitely, without blatantly refusing to allow the sales of non-Chinese products in China. Also easy for the design schematics necessary for proper testing to be "viewed" by manufacturing representatives in China, too.

 

[richfinn]

Outside of mass-scale production, there's a lot of Chinese stuff made in small shops that's of very good quality. Some of the best headphone amps and digital to analog converters I know of come from small businesses in China that are dead-set on making the best product they can.

Historically, China has been capable of some extremely impressive things; it seems like they really only got into their modern stereotype after Mao took over and Communism came in full-swing. Compare it to Russia, and it's the same sort of thing - a massive push into "everyone is an equal comrade" mediocrity and large-scale industrial manufacturing. The US had a similar period itself during the Industrial Revolution, but we rolled through it and came out successful. Russia didn't. China is still up in the air, but I think the accessibility of social media and the growing "net consciousness" over there will be the determining factor that Russia didn't have at a crucial point.

Yep I would agree with, I think Britain also went through a version of this along time ago and then hit the big time building railways in the 1800s, its tailed off and we now have very little mass production as we cannot compete with.

1. The American work ethic

2. the efficiency of the Germans or Japanese

3. the cheap price of Asian goods

However its not all bad news, as I think Britain has emerged in a better place by not trying to compete with these countries and concentrating on bespoke designer products and strong engineering.

If you look at our car manufacturing its all premium branded stuff like Range Rover/Jaguar/Aston Martin/Rolls Royce and even the MINI brand (who would have believed that would happen).

Morgan/Noble and even McLaren have proved you can sell high end products worldwide that are made in a country many have written off. Even Triumph motorcycles are being produced in reasonable numbers again.

I think our future is selling quirky British products that people buy as a luxury item. And the sooner we stop trying to compete for market share the better.

Just sell something interesting and charge more for it

 

[PRH44]

My question would be what is the weapon manufacturing like in China. The fact is China can out produce and out man any nation on the planet. In time of war thats the most single important factor. Couple this with technology and you have force that cannot be overcome.
The Allied forces of WWII won buy shear strength in numbers and equipment. We just kept producing equipment and manpower faster than it could be destroyed. Plants were screaming at full tilt here in the USA.
The fact that our nation has minimized our ability to produce equipment in the name of profit, we would struggle with keeping up. We had best hope our technology has tooled what few plants we have with such fast automated equipment that we could overcome should we need to.

China can set back, let the USA become dependent and then if they choose war simply pull the carpet out from under us.

Off track sorry

 

[signcrafter]

My question would be what is the weapon manufacturing like in China. The fact is China can out produce and out man any nation on the planet. In time of war thats the most single important factor. Couple this with technology and you have force that cannot be overcome.
The Allied forces of WWII won buy shear strength in numbers and equipment. We just kept producing equipment and manpower faster than it could be destroyed. Plants were screaming at full tilt here in the USA.
The fact that our nation has minimized our ability to produce equipment in the name of profit, we would struggle with keeping up. We had best hope our technology has tooled what few plants we have with such fast automated equipment that we could overcome should we need to.

China can set back, let the USA become dependent and then if they choose war simply pull the carpet out from under us.

Off track sorry

I believe they are building a few aircraft carriers which are their first if I'm not mistaken. Also I thought I read they have some stealth jet that will compete with the US's new fighter jet.

I would think that if it ever came down to it the US could pick up manufacturing whatever weapons we needed in a hurry. War has changed since back then. It's not so much men with guns as it is new weapons like drones, missiles, etc which I'm sure our forces keep a pretty healthy stock of and could restock very quick if needed. We still have lots of military manufacturing all over the country, Oshkosh Truck being one of them.

The one major problem would be money to produce these things and since we owe a lot of money to China if we ever got into a war with them I don't think they would borrow us any money.

 

[BrokewrenchLS1]

My question would be what is the weapon manufacturing like in China. The fact is China can out produce and out man any nation on the planet. In time of war thats the most single important factor. Couple this with technology and you have force that cannot be overcome.
The Allied forces of WWII won buy shear strength in numbers and equipment. We just kept producing equipment and manpower faster than it could be destroyed. Plants were screaming at full tilt here in the USA.
The fact that our nation has minimized our ability to produce equipment in the name of profit, we would struggle with keeping up. We had best hope our technology has tooled what few plants we have with such fast automated equipment that we could overcome should we need to.

China can set back, let the USA become dependent and then if they choose war simply pull the carpet out from under us.

Off track sorry

Most, if not all, of Chinese war machinery is based off other designs that they've (poorly, usually) replicated. They were capable of building some nice AK clones a while back, but I don't believe they have anything in their arsenal that we'd need to worry about short of the sheer number of their conscript army - and for that to matter, they'd need to land on US dirt, and I don't think that would happen. In the 40s or 50s, the current Chinese army would have been pretty scary, but they sort of missed the memo on the inefficiency of conscript armies, especially in the face of a highly trained and very well-equipped enemy.

There's some media scare going on now and then about new Chinese weapons, but it'll amount to nothing in the end. The Chinese are much more adept in planning and carrying out economic warfare and, little attention as there is in that area now, that's where we should be worried.

 

[fsdogwood]

I understand you point but that wasn't what I was getting at. I was wondering what the thought process is on the average Chinese guy's tool purchase. For example, if I need a ratchet, socket, specialty tool, etc. I wiegh my options. Think about how often I will use it, cost, COO, value, quality, etc. Because I have options ranging from Snap on to the dollar bin at the hardware store or HF. I take all those things into consideration when I need a new tool for something. Does the average Chinese guy take these things into consideration when they need a new tool? Do they even have all these options or is there only one tool store in town? I don't know but all these COO and brand wars got me thinking about what a Chinese guy might think when he needs a new screwdriver or ratchet.

You have options in China, too.
One can buy "tools", screw driver, drain snake, etc., in places like the US farmers market, and needless to say, it could be useless (the drain snake worked fine).
One can buy from the neighborhood shop, which you can find all sorts of
tools, that I saw Gear Wrench knock off with the currency rate, selling at
the GW price in the US.
One could then buy the name brands (Bosch, Snap-on), etc., if you get the means.

Generally people there think tools imported (real import) are of better
quality. I've used some German screw drivers bought back in the 70's
and that was really excellent.

 

[fsdogwood]

I understand you point but that wasn't what I was getting at. I was wondering what the thought process is on the average Chinese guy's tool purchase. For example, if I need a ratchet, socket, specialty tool, etc. I wiegh my options. Think about how often I will use it, cost, COO, value, quality, etc. Because I have options ranging from Snap on to the dollar bin at the hardware store or HF. I take all those things into consideration when I need a new tool for something. Does the average Chinese guy take these things into consideration when they need a new tool? Do they even have all these options or is there only one tool store in town? I don't know but all these COO and brand wars got me thinking about what a Chinese guy might think when he needs a new screwdriver or ratchet.

He may just pick up a tool (from the very same place)while grocery shopping, and remember Chinese do grocery shopping daily, every morning, with fresh vegetables, and meats. This is the case for a city with
500,000 to 2,000,000 population.

Or he could walk to a neighborhood store (like gas station here, one every
few blocks), there usually some tool shops.

Or if it's a rare piece of tool, he could go to the place (at least one per city)
for wholesale, and buy one.

Sometimes, some booth even have some handmade woodworking tools
(locally made)

I think the criteria is it works, and not much of the origin first.

 

[zuk123]

I was there (Shanghai) 2x a few years ago.

All the tools used locally were REALLY poor quality. Ladders were hand-made from scraps. Rolling scaffold would have been scrapped anywhere but the worst contractors in the States. The bent up aluminum ladder was used as a mop drying rack. The hammer drill was a worn out, clapped out POS. The guy cutting steel tube was using a grinder with bearings so worn it had to be started by hand, and spun up to speed before contacting the tube. Electrical cords were horrifying.

BUT the job got done.

When I asked my chinese project manager, he said chinese people prefer cheap to good every time. They would rather buy just good enough and wear it out, than buy expensive. They are capable of producing quality, and can afford it in many cases. But if it's not a luxury status good, they won't buy it.

Don't know what this really means, but here's one last story. The first time I was there, our local (native) tech was telling me about his work on the Olympics. He said they opened every shipping crate with hand screwdrivers. Imagine hundreds of wooden shipping crates, screwed together with hundreds of phillips and robertson screws. Now imagine unscrewing them all by hand. He said they don't have good battery powered screw guns, and no power for drills, so (shrugging) they just do it by hand. On my second trip, I brought him a Yankee style screw driver to use. (Do a quick google if you don't know what that is, it's old tech, automatic screwdriver. Great to have in your bag if the company ships your toolboxes in screwed shut crates.) Nice modern construction, uses ball-detent bits. Some bits too. When it came time to open crates, he used a hand screwdriver. When I asked him, he had left the Yankee driver at home (it was a gift, and he didn't use it!) and would use the hand driver. Weird, huh? Although honestly it didn't take too much longer than if someone had a screwgun.

Some pix I took, not from the web, but from my worksite!

zuk

PS the cord shown with the tape splice to plug, to bare receptacle to romex was on the makita clone hammer drill. It was adapted 2 more times before it plugs in.

 

[OEXL16B]

Chinese people Don't make crappy stuff because they want to. They do it because Americans pay them to do it.

I think that's probably true. The Irwin tools made in China are pretty good quality compared to other tools made in China for other American companies.

 

[Hootbro]

This morning (6/19/2012), it was reported on CNBC.com that there are now more millionaires in Asia than in the USA.

. . . The times, they are a-changin' . . .

Whole numbers maybe, but per capita they are woefully behind.

 

[jw80]

Here is only tool kit I have seen used by a Chinese guy in China with an interest in tools.

http://toolmonger.com/2007/11/07/glove-winner-a-chinese-tool-kit-from-china/

 

[WHT]

Chinese people Don't make crappy stuff because they want to. They do it because Americans pay them to do it.

Really? When Sears and other companies have China cast tools like a vise they require that the casting be full of air pockets and internal stress? How much extra does that costs them?

And, when China executed a group of businessmen recently for using inferior metals for a completely China owned product to increase profits, that was Americans paying them to do it again?

I work with a lot of people from Taiwan and they thought your response was funny.

 

[nit2wn]

I personally can only tell you they seem to love R-Class Mercedes. We seem to send them around half of what we produce in that car. We probably would have stopped production of the thing if it wasn't for them. Now my brother in law has been over there 3-4 times for his company to set up a plant for producing lawn chair fabric. The things he mentioned were how they cut the ends off of cords and just twist the wires together. Seems they don't have just one standard for plug ins. There ladders were bamboo tied together and workers would literally live on site until they were done. At his hotel, they would deliver food every morning from the fields and farms. Chicken would be the freshest, as they were live. He also had a guide and told of how it was his duty to my b-i-l to help him with any purchases and get him the best deal. They believe in haggling for the best possible price and never to pay asking price.