Just drill bits . . .

[msgtsmithret]

I found (as always) lots of information here about drills, drill presses, etc. but I didn't find a thread dedicated to drill bits alone. SO I stated one.

I think it's interesting that there are so many new, vintage and antique bits out there. I finally cleaned up a box of old bits I had and identified 12 different manufacturers. I would like to see if anyone else has a collection of whatever make, share makers ID marks, and have members chime in with use and care tips. A video of sharpening a drill bit would be cool. My shop teacher in high school taught me but that was a long time ago and skills get lost when not used. So, please chime in and share your collections and knowledge. Maybe do some trading . . .

Here are two pictures to start the ball rolling:

 

[czgunner]

I bought a Drill Doctor 500x.
I couldn't ever "master" the grinder sharpening skill!

 

[Outlawmws]

Oh god no. I don't want to have to get OCD on drill bits! It's hard enough to find the sizes stamped on the ****** things, much less the makers marks!

I can deal with the index boxes and trays, but as long as its a decent quality HSS or better bit, I'm not sure I care much who make em!

 

[Piles]

What are your guys' thoughts on Cobalt vs. HSS? I am far from knowledgeable on this subject but have found some characteristics of both that I prefer and dislike. Making choosing a home set a little difficult.

I like the Cobalts because they seem to cut through hard metals quicker and with less effort, but they also seem to dull very quick even with ample cutting oil. Also they seem to cut through everything at the same rate, whereas the HSS will make it through some material much quicker than others.

What do you fellas prefer?

 

[msgtsmithret]

What are your guys' thoughts on Cobalt vs. HSS? I am far from knowledgeable on this subject but have found some characteristics of both that I prefer and dislike. Making choosing a home set a little difficult.

I like the Cobalts because they seem to cut through hard metals quicker and with less effort, but they also seem to dull very quick even with ample cutting oil. Also they seem to cut through everything at the same rate, whereas the HSS will make it through some material much quicker than others.

What do you fellas prefer?

Piles: I use them in automotive repair and light fabrication. I have not found "other than HSS" bits to be better or worse, just more costly. HSS in this situation is all I need. That is why I have a bazzilion of them. If they break - oh well.

 

[msgtsmithret]

I'm looking for CENTURY HSS bits to fill my index if anyone has some for sale. Outlaw I have to agree - an HSS bit is an HSS bit. I'm not a brand snob except when I am trying to put together a certain set.

 

[AlexNGreen]

Drill bits are not drill bits. If you spend the dough and get a set of these
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001CZH2SK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

They will be the last drill bits you'll want to use. Its amazing how good, good drill bits work.

 

[msgtsmithret]

Drill bits are not drill bits. If you spend the dough and get a set of these
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001CZH2SK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

They will be the last drill bits you'll want to use. Its amazing how good, good drill bits work.

They will be the last drill bits 'cause I wont be able to afford anything else! Don't get me wrong - I know nothing about them. But I'm a yard sale junkie who refuses to pay more than $10 for a box or set of bits.

 

[Outlawmws]

Drill bits are not drill bits. If you spend the dough and get a set of these
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001CZH2SK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

They will be the last drill bits you'll want to use. Its amazing how good, good drill bits work.

I never said ANY HSS bit was OK I said DECENT quality bits, and there are a lot of companies that make good ones. Not as many as in the not so distant past, but they are out there, and this is why I also buy them in bulk at yard sales. mostly I can get then in unused or close to it, and I have only really sharpened the hex drive bits as i prefer them for the battery drills, where as the DP only ever sees std shank drills. If I dull one I usually have LOTS of backups.

 

[Outlawmws]

What are your guys' thoughts on Cobalt vs. HSS? I am far from knowledgeable on this subject but have found some characteristics of both that I prefer and dislike. Making choosing a home set a little difficult.

I like the Cobalts because they seem to cut through hard metals quicker and with less effort, but they also seem to dull very quick even with ample cutting oil. Also they seem to cut through everything at the same rate, whereas the HSS will make it through some material much quicker than others.

What do you fellas prefer?

I'm particular about feed and speeds, so I can usually get anything dine with HHS.

Use Google images for a Drill speed and feed chart, and you will have a LOT less issues drilling, mo matter what the breed of drill.

 

[wafrederick]

I have a set Knkuts at work,paid about $175.00 for the set made here in the USA.Been a great set so far
http://www.knkut.com/shop/index.php?crn=208&rn=530&action=show_detail

 

[laser3kw]

I was just contemplating replacing my almost 15 year old 115pc Hertel triplex drill index. I bought it new in 99' or 00' for around $85. The replacement today is over $300!
I would prefer to get HSS but most of the stuff offered is Colbalt.

 

[cheechi]

I have a Dewalt pilot point cobalt set and other than that all my sets are HF. a smaller Ti coated and a full Cobalt index.

I know HF bits used to be junk, and they're still not Viking by any means, but compared to Dewalt, Skil, Ridgid, basically anything you can get at HD or Lowes they're about the same or near as not to notice. The exception is that brad point Cobalt Dewalt set, but I don't know how much of it is due to the geometry.

I do have a Drill Doctor and it is a technique you have to learn,but one worth learning. I have nothing scientific to prove this but it does a better job than a regular bench grinder at sharpening them in my experience.

 

[madison069]

Funny, I just sorted my drill bits out from twisted bits, masonry, and spade bits.

I didn't go through them but I need to sharpen then I'm sure. So I'll be working on sharpening the twisted bits sometime later.

 

[jeffmoss26]

The Viking bits look like Norseman...I think they rebrand for a lot of companies.

 

[rusty65]

The Viking bits look like Norseman...I think they rebrand for a lot of companies.

You are correct Norseman makes Viking drill bits. Norseman if I'm not mistaken is sold to the public and Viking is sold to industries I could have that mixed up as in Norseman for industries and Viking to the average guy.


Sent From Snap On Headquarters deep in China.

 

[basspro]

I do know Fastenal by me carries Norseman, and they are very good quality. I touch em up on a bench grinder and they are sharp as new again. Have had the same bits for 3 years, with a few small ones broken here and there. They are all pretty beat and short now haha.

 

[Tinner]

Precision Twist Drill, Cleveland, Triumph, Hertel and Chicago Latrobe are all common industrial brands of good quality HSS drills. My personal collection is a mix of those and others. I buy the smaller sizes, 3/16" and under by the dozen. I never buy drills at a home or hardware store. Enco is a good source for the average guy, they have sales all the time.

Learning to sharpen drills is a worthwhile pursuit. Lubrication is a must. Feed and speed is what it's all about. Cobalt drills are great, especially in harder materials, but they tend to chip easily handheld or in a press with a lot of runout or the work not clamped securely.

 

[Piles]

What do you guys use for cutting oils with your drills? At work we have Wurth and they drop off cans of their house brand stuff and it works pretty good. Although before that I just used old motor oil or mineral spirits on very rare occasions so maybe my idea of "good" in this regard is way off base.

Also when I say for "home use" thats a little misleading. I mean for at our farm, and on my various projects that can range from zero to heavy fabrication. So basically pro use.

 

[neophyte]

I have a Dewalt pilot point cobalt set and other than that all my sets are HF. a smaller Ti coated and a full Cobalt index.

I know HF bits used to be junk, and they're still not Viking by any means, but compared to Dewalt, Skil, Ridgid, basically anything you can get at HD or Lowes they're about the same or near as not to notice. The exception is that brad point Cobalt Dewalt set, but I don't know how much of it is due to the geometry.

I do have a Drill Doctor and it is a technique you have to learn,but one worth learning. I have nothing scientific to prove this but it does a better job than a regular bench grinder at sharpening them in my experience.

The Dewalt Pilot Point drill bits used to be made in Germany. The newer ones I've seen have said China on the packaging. I presume there might be a difference in quality especially if your set is an older one.

Another thing about the Pilot Point drill bits is the Geometry design.

Other than the special tip, the rest of the point has a flatter angle. I've read that the flatter angle on drill bits decreases the friction or pressure needed to drill tough materials, which is the reason cobalt drill bits tend to have135 degree split points instead of the usual 118 degree tips.

The fluting may be more open on the Pilot Point drill bits over typical drill bit designs. I'm not sure on this, but I believe Dewalts literature used to mention something about it.

 

[msgtsmithret]

What do you guys use for cutting oils with your drills? At work we have Wurth and they drop off cans of their house brand stuff and it works pretty good. Although before that I just used old motor oil or mineral spirits on very rare occasions so maybe my idea of "good" in this regard is way off base.

Also when I say for "home use" thats a little misleading. I mean for at our farm, and on my various projects that can range from zero to heavy fabrication. So basically pro use.

ATF because I always have a small amount on the bench - not for ANY other reason. Just a few drops will do, then continue to feed as needed during the cut. I have one of those Plews pump-action oil cans next to the press.

 

[msgtsmithret]

The Dewalt Pilot Point drill bits used to be made in Germany. The newer ones I've seen have said China on the packaging. I presume there might be a difference in quality especially if your set is an older one.

Another thing about the Pilot Point drill bits is the Geometry design.

Other than the special tip, the rest of the point has a flatter angle. I've read that the flatter angle on drill bits decreases the friction or pressure needed to drill tough materials, which is the reason cobalt drill bits tend to have135 degree split points instead of the usual 118 degree tips.

The fluting may be more open on the Pilot Point drill bits over typical drill bit designs. I'm not sure on this, but I believe Dewalts literature used to mention something about it.

That's great info - thanks!

 

[ritzblitz]

I like my carbide drills garr makes nice ones, as does guhring. But for certain things HSS is just better.

 

[Kevin54]

I have cheap bits. I have more expensive bits, and I have cheap bits that I've had for years. As far as makers, I'll have to look. I know when I ordered at the shop for the toolroom, I ordered Westward. They were cheap, but the people were lazy. Anyone would come in grab a bit and just leave it lay. Next thing you know, there are 50+ bits of different sizes laying everywhere. Us toolmakers had indexes to keep our in, but we had Huot bins that we would keep a dozen of each size in.

Which I am going to have to buy a drill doctor. I was looking in my toolbox the other day and I have 13 drill indexes, and one complete drawer full of loose bits. And I'm not talking a little drawer with 100 bits, I'm taking a larger drawer with 1000+ bits. I need to get them sharpened and in indexes.

 

[jjjrmx5]

I bought a Drill Doctor 500x.
I couldn't ever "master" the grinder sharpening skill!

You were doing it wrong. Aside from having to buy $20 Darex wheels its a fun and very capabable tool to save some serious $$$ and recususitate nice old bits.

Don't get me going on drill bit quantity.

I have 5lbs worth to sharpen for jefffmoss26 alone. Jobber and machine length.
All for the love of USA and German made bits.
God bless 135 degree split point goodness.

Huot indexes FTW.

 

[czgunner]

You were doing it wrong. Aside from having to buy $20 Darex wheels its a fun and very capabable tool to save some serious $$$ and recususitate nice old bits.

You misunderstand me. I bought the Drill Doctor because I couldn't sharpen on a grinder.

 

[Outlawmws]

You were doing it wrong. Aside from having to buy $20 Darex wheels its a fun and very capabable tool to save some serious $$$ and recususitate nice old bits.

Don't get me going on drill bit quantity.

I have 5lbs worth to sharpen for jefffmoss26 alone. Jobber and machine length.
All for the love of USA and German made bits.
God bless 135 degree split point goodness.

Huot indexes FTW.

JJ; CZ wasn't complaining about the Drill Doc. He was complaining about trying to do it free hand on a grinder.

 

[jjjrmx5]

You misunderstand me. I bought the Drill Doctor because I couldn't sharpen on a grinder.

My apolgizes.


There are a LOT of DD users that seem to not be able to master it.
Just check the www.

Good, bad or indifferent, it is a very useful tool.

Not as quick as a ginder nor as easy nor forgiving, it works. Well.

A lot of folks hate on them. Meanwhile, I really like mine.

YMMV.

 

[msgtsmithret]

The old shop teacher I had in High School was an OLD SCHOOL metalworker who would teach us to forge, weld, grind, cut, do scroll work, use a lathe, make our own chisels (and temper them, of course), and . . . sharpen a drill bit. He did this by hand and it required a fine grindstone and this weird, angular twisting motion that just barely kissed the stone, followed by a dip in oil to cool it. I'm going to sacrifice some perfectly good drill bits and get practicing this forgotten technique. Wish me luck!

 

[Outlawmws]

There is a Utube (Or two) of a guy that had the technique down pat and was good at demonstrating it. I lost the link last year to a Trojan that butchered my Ltop, but I'll bet someone here on GJ still has it.

 

[czgunner]

I just picked up the left hand chuck for the lefty twist, and I can't quite get that yet.

 

[cheechi]

What do you guys use for cutting oils with your drills

ATF because I always have a small amount on the bench - not for ANY other reason. Just a few drops will do, then continue to feed as needed during the cut. I have one of those Plews pump-action oil cans next to the press.

This is the only reason I use WD-40. I have a bunch everywhere.

I wonder if your old school teacher's method of dipping it in oil was motor oil to harden it? Hot metal dipped in motor oil will increase the 'high carbon' of HCS metal and depending on the oil, temps, & metal may be enough to make HSS into a slightly 'high carbon' steel.

 

[larry_g]

I wonder if your old school teacher's method of dipping it in oil was motor oil to harden it? Hot metal dipped in motor oil will increase the 'high carbon' of HCS metal and depending on the oil, temps, & metal may be enough to make HSS into a slightly 'high carbon' steel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_steel

see above If you increase the carbon content of HSS then your going backwards in terms of strength.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[R.Anderson]

I wonder if your old school teacher's method of dipping it in oil was motor oil to harden it? Hot metal dipped in motor oil will increase the 'high carbon' of HCS metal and depending on the oil, temps, & metal may be enough to make HSS into a slightly 'high carbon' steel.
__________________

see above If you increase the carbon content of HSS then your going backwards in terms of strength.

lg
no neat sig line

The term strength can go both ways with metals/alloys.

Reducing the hardness is accompanied by an increase in ductility and vise versa.

The more ductile the more malleable and flexible the alloy gets.
The greater the hardness the more brittle and ridged the alloy gets.

True, the higher the carbon content the harder the alloy is but you have to add the carbon. Quenching in oil is not adding carbon, its just used for cooling.

If you carbonize with oxyacetylene (black soot along with heat is adding carbon), which is a form case hardening.

Your not increasing or decreasing the carbon content by hardening or heat treating the alloy. Heating the alloy above the upper transformation temperature and quenching hardens the alloy by changing the crystal/grain structure, not by adding carbon. Tempering/drawing back your only heating to or under the lower transformation temperature/lower critical temperature and then cooling, by doing this your making the alloy a little more ductile (less likely to break/shatter)
A Phase diagram/isothermal transformation diagram for the alloy will tell you the exact times and temperatures for heat treating, or guess Usually heating a little above the curie point then quench hardens HSS. The curie point is the when the alloy losses it magnetism due to high temp.

This part a little off topic but still about HSS and its good to know if you don't know so Ill throw it in
Most HSS tool blanks for lathes/mills come annealed (opposite of hardened, the alloy is heated above upper transformation point then cooled slowly) this allows for easier machining and grinding of the blank into a tool then its harden and tempered.

Make sure to temper after hardening or face possible drill/lathe/mill bit breaks and shatters.

 

[mrbreezeet1]

Drill bits are not drill bits. If you spend the dough and get a set of these
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001CZH2SK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

They will be the last drill bits you'll want to use. Its amazing how good, good drill bits work.

looks like the ones that there was a thread about, selling pretty reasonable
on e bay. l got a set, around $55.00 IIRC

 

[msgtsmithret]

The term strength can go both ways with metals/alloys.

Reducing the hardness is accompanied by an increase in ductility and vise versa.

The more ductile the more malleable and flexible the alloy gets.
The greater the hardness the more brittle and ridged the alloy gets.

True, the higher the carbon content the harder the alloy is but you have to add the carbon. Quenching in oil is not adding carbon, its just used for cooling.

If you carbonize with oxyacetylene (black soot along with heat is adding carbon), which is a form case hardening.

Your not increasing or decreasing the carbon content by hardening or heat treating the alloy. Heating the alloy above the upper transformation temperature and quenching hardens the alloy by changing the crystal/grain structure, not by adding carbon. Tempering/drawing back your only heating to or under the lower transformation temperature/lower critical temperature and then cooling, by doing this your making the alloy a little more ductile (less likely to break/shatter)
A Phase diagram/isothermal transformation diagram for the alloy will tell you the exact times and temperatures for heat treating, or guess Usually heating a little above the curie point then quench hardens HSS. The curie point is the when the alloy losses it magnetism due to high temp.

This part a little off topic but still about HSS and its good to know if you don't know so Ill throw it in
Most HSS tool blanks for lathes/mills come annealed (opposite of hardened, the alloy is heated above upper transformation point then cooled slowly) this allows for easier machining and grinding of the blank into a tool then its harden and tempered.

Make sure to temper after hardening or face possible drill/lathe/mill bit breaks and shatters.

OK most of that was like a 747 - way over my head. Still it's great info and thanks for it. It helps to know exactly what oil quenching does (and doesn't)do.

 

[cheechi]

Quenching in oil is not adding carbon, its just used for cooling.

If you carbonize with oxyacetylene (black soot along with heat is adding carbon), which is a form case hardening.

When I was taught this it was with used motor oil. I'm sure it's not the most effective way in any case, but that's the way I was taught.

 

[R.Anderson]

When I was taught this it was with used motor oil. I'm sure it's not the most effective way in any case, but that's the way I was taught.

If your method works and does what you need it to do, stick with it

There are tool steels that are oil, air, and water quenched, it all depends on the type you have.

 

[ritzblitz]

Your teacher probably used the oil to keep the drill cool. That way he didn't temper it and cause the steel to soften.

You would have to do serious grinding to heat it up enough to be able to actually heat treat.

 

[Stephenw]

There is a Utube (Or two) of a guy that had the technique down pat and was good at demonstrating it. I lost the link last year to a Trojan that butchered my Ltop, but I'll bet someone here on GJ still has it.

Tubalcain

I use a Drill Doctor.