Quality construction vs advanced design

[The Rusty Gear]

My question is this:
What would you consider to be a "better" choice for sockets? Lets say a 30+ year old socket set from a major player of the level of SK Wayne or Indestro vs a 2009 made in taiwan set with a copy of the flank drive design?

I think most board members agree that for tools of the same vintage there is no comparison between quality "Made in USA" and "Made somewhere is Asia" . . . But can current design advantages ie flank drive make up for other shortcomings? Has asian metallurgy and manufacturing tolerances caught up to that of 1970's USA? 1950's?

 

[jerk_chicken]

Quality construction of a basic, proven, usable design will do it for me. If the tolerances are off, the metal is not hard enough, or a host of other hard to go wrong ways, but commonly do go wrong, an advanced design isn't worth d"*ck.

Whether it's made in US or elsewhere, it's more important to know what the particular item you're buying is, from construction on up. There are good things made on all continents, as well as total garbage. If you don't believe me, I'll show you plenty of piles of poo that is made in Germany, a place reputed to be high on quality to people from our side of the world. I've seen more junk here than anything else. Makes CM look like SO.

Just know what you're buying.

BTW- who are the companies that copied the Flank profiling?

 

[The Rusty Gear]

If the tolerances are off, the metal is not hard enough, or a host of other hard to go wrong ways, but commonly do go wrong, an advanced design isn't worth d"*ck.

I guess that is partailly what I'm asking. In general, has "made in Asia" circa 2009 caught up to "Made in America" circa 1970? I know there will always be diamonds and turds all around, but I'm just asking in generalities and ignoring the turds. For example, if someone offered you a set of 40 year old Proto Wrenches or a set of new Gearwrench Wrenches, which one would you choose? Can Gearwrench (or other asian manufacturers) get the same or better tolerances/steel etc as Proto (Or _insert name here_) did 30+ years ago? What about 50 years ago?

BTW- who are the companies that copied the Flank profiling?

Seems everyone from cheapie Princess Auto Sockets to Mastercraft Maximum (Taiwanese Danaher IIRC) All have "anti rounding" or "surface drive" etc etc

 

[jerk_chicken]

Ahhh. Was hoping to hear some quality brands. I heard of surface drive. So anyone for combo wrenches? I should have specified that.

 

[The Rusty Gear]

Ahhh. Was hoping to hear some quality brands. I heard of surface drive. So anyone for combo wrenches? I should have specified that.

Well, I'm talking "made in Asia" so "Quality Brands" is a topic for another thread.

I'm not sure about the combos. Thek *look* like they have a similar profile, but I can't remember if they advertise as such like they do on the sockets.

 

[Jononon]

I'm talking "made in Asia" so "Quality Brands" is a topic for another thread.

 

[autoace]

If I understand your original post right, I don't think there is an advantage of using and old USA set, over say..Gearwrench sockets...when it comes to getting the job done. I would say from a use stand point, the new high end "flank drive" Asian sockets are fine, however they won't have that classic heritage feeling.

This board is for tool junkies, so the correct answer would be have all kinds of socket sets, then choose as needed,,can you really have too many tools?

 

[64merc]

I think that is a really good question. Personally, I'll take a quality USA piece from 30 years ago over brand new upper level Asian sockets. I think it may have a lot to do with the fact that I like old tools though.

 

[speed bump]

New Britain hell yeah. If the choice is New Britain from 30 years ago or anything else well have fun with the rest of it.

 

[Jononon]

This board is for tool junkies, so the correct answer would be have all kinds of socket sets, then choose as needed,,can you really have too many tools?

Older tools are nice things to have at to get use out of, but IMO, viewed objectively, a flank drive socket from any good quality manufacturer knocks spots off the traditional design.

 

[v8garage]

Seems like a lot of the folks here assume that flank drive is better. Is it better or is it just a marketing ploy to sell more tools? Not being a smart *** here and not asking for a flame job. I have gotten by very well for over 40 years without them and I work on stuff often enough hasn't had a wrench on it for decades. Also often enough the hardware is irreplaceable and has to be saved and reused. A lot harder to break apart than stuff the average garage mechanic has to work on. If flank drive is better please educate me as to why.

 

[garfunkle24]

Seems like a lot of the folks here assume that flank drive is better. Is it better or is it just a marketing ploy to sell more tools? Not being a smart *** here and not asking for a flame job. I have gotten by very well for over 40 years without them and I work on stuff often enough hasn't had a wrench on it for decades. Also often enough the hardware is irreplaceable and has to be saved and reused. A lot harder to break apart than stuff the average garage mechanic has to work on. If flank drive is better please educate me as to why.

That's a good question. I get the idea behind driving the flanks instead of the corner, but I'm still not entirely convinced. Someone recently (Zuspiel or justinmc maybe?) mentioned how they couldn't break something loose with a Flankdrive but successfully removed it with a 6pt CM raised-panel wrench.

Makes me wonder how much is marketing BS and it's resulting placebo effect and how much is an actual improvement in performance?

 

[krusty the clown]

it probably doesn't matter at all, untill you get that one bolt that someone else has started to round off.

 

[J.A.F.E.]

I think the design paradigm has changed. Older tools were made at a time when true innovation and quality were the salient factors - companies were engineering driven.

Modern tool manufacturing is a lot more mature in many ways, patents have run out, trade secrets revealed and so forth and the shift has gone to marketing driven and accounting driven perspectives.

That's why you see so many gimmicky features. Instead of buying one tool with the intent on keeping it for life the focus is to sell this years model and discard last years. Even SO has jumped on that bandwagon. There was nothing wrong with single pawl ratchets they're tried and true. But now you're supposed to toss them out and buy the L/S/F80's and T72's - which admittedly are very nice.

Everything has kind of met in the middle. Low end tools are much much better than those of a few years ago. The premium stuff has had the focus on gimmicks over genuine improvements, which is natural what else can you do to a socket or a wrench to make it better? Make it cheaper and flashier seems to be the answer.

 

[Paladin]

Personally, I choose old US quality over Chiwanese stuff any day. I like my old tools that have character...

 

[Elroy]

One thing that has NOT changed over the years are the market pressures that push manufacturers to produce at lower prices and higher quality. With sockets in particular, you'll find that almost ALL sockets are currently produced from sintered powder in a press. But not always.

Pictures to illustrate pending.

 

[v8garage]

I think the design paradigm has changed. Older tools were made at a time when true innovation and quality were the salient factors - companies were engineering driven.

Modern tool manufacturing is a lot more mature in many ways, patents have run out, trade secrets revealed and so forth and the shift has gone to marketing driven and accounting driven perspectives.

That's why you see so many gimmicky features. Instead of buying one tool with the intent on keeping it for life the focus is to sell this years model and discard last years. Even SO has jumped on that bandwagon. There was nothing wrong with single pawl ratchets they're tried and true. But now you're supposed to toss them out and buy the L/S/F80's and T72's - which admittedly are very nice.

Everything has kind of met in the middle. Low end tools are much much better than those of a few years ago. The premium stuff has had the focus on gimmicks over genuine improvements, which is natural what else can you do to a socket or a wrench to make it better? Make it cheaper and flashier seems to be the answer.

There is a term for what you have described here, it's called "planned obsolescence". Society has bought into this, everyone has to have the newest flashiest stuff, making last years obsolete in the public persona. I don't buy into this but I am probably in the minority.

 

[v8garage]

it probably doesn't matter at all, untill you get that one bolt that someone else has started to round off.

Good point Krusty, I can see where a flank drive might go on a fastener and get it loose where a regular 6 point wouldn't even go on it due to the rounded corners.
V/8

 

[J.A.F.E.]

There is a term for what you have described here, it's called "planned obsolescence". Society has bought into this, everyone has to have the newest flashiest stuff, making last years obsolete in the public persona. I don't buy into this but I am probably in the minority.

You are, of course, exactly correct but I suspect most here don't buy into that mindset. Perhaps another word might be fashion and we replace good things with newer fancier things because the new ones are in fashion and the old things are, well, old.

 

[Elroy]

Pictures to illustrate pending.

If you please, First off we have here the typical modern Craftsman socket. These are 1/2" drive metric and no more than a few years old. These are manufactured using the modern "powdered metallurgy" technique where metal powder is loaded into a die and forced under high pressure into the desired net shape. These semi-finished sockets are then heat treated to sinter the powder into a finished product. The sockets are then polished and chrome plated. This manufacturing technique is currently used by ALL manufactures. It yields a high quality tool at low cost, very quickly with the fewest steps.

Here we have a pair of the famous Snap-on socket.

There are three areas to note in this picture. The socket on the right is a 1/2" drive, 1-5/16" number TW421 dated year 2000. The socket on the left is an 1-1/4" also dated year 2000 number TW401.

A) notice the lathe turn marks present at the top of the 1-5/16" socket

B) The "chip" of material shown only on the 1-5/16" socket located at the bottom of the "V".

Better shown in this view:

Also shown clearly in this view is:

C) the lathe turn marks at the BOTTOM of the large 1-5/16" socket.

Each of these three features are clearly absent in the 1-1/4" socket. That is because the 1-1/4" is a "powder" product where the larger 1-5/16" is manufactured using the Hot Broach method as outlined at Alloy Artifacts

Also note the manufacturing process utilized in this vintage 1-1/8" New Britain

Can you say Hot Broach ??

So what does all this Elroy Bull **** mean???

 

[billymade]

Ummm, can you ask Elroy to explain it to us? Did those old sockets, require someone to machine them on a lathe; one by one, by hand? Sounds expensive and a slower process!

Here are some links for clueless wonders, like me! I have to look this stuff up! :0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintering
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broach_(metalworking)

 

[Monte]

sintered metal sockets ? sure ?

 

[Elroy]

sintered metal sockets ? sure ?

What? You don't believe there is such a thing.

 

[Merkava_4]

I'm thinking the greatest improvements have been to the machinery that makes these tools .... tools today are just so much more cleaner and so much more accurately machined than they were in the past.

 

[billymade]

Elroy, we have seen the Hazet videos where they cut a piece of metal put it in a press and then cut the shape out of that piece of metal; I am assuming this is a different process, then what you are referring to. Is the process Hazet uses, produce a stronger socket? The process you are referring to, seems like you could produce a higher amount of sockets and at a faster rate.
Video example here: http://www.hazet.de/fileadmin/media/download/hazet_filme/02_film_gallileo/

 

[Merkava_4]

I'm thinking Elroy was referring to the socket producing process; which is different than the wrench producing process.

 

[Elroy]

Elroy, we have seen the Hazet videos where they cut a piece of metal put it in a press and then cut the shape out of that piece of metal; I am assuming this is a different process, then what you are referring to. Is the process Hazet uses, produce a stronger socket?

Elroy believes you're referring to a Forging process. This is still used on open and combination wrenches. I'm referring to SOCKETS.

Have you ever seen a socket that said Forged in China, USA, Taiwan or Germany?? Nope. you'll only see that on a "spanner"

How about Sintered in Sri Lanka

 

[billymade]

The video shows them making sockets too!
http://www.hazet.de/fileadmin/media/download/hazet_filme/02_film_gallileo/

 

[Merkava_4]

How about Sintered in Sri Lanka

 

[Elroy]

The video shows them making sockets too!
http://www.hazet.de/fileadmin/media/download/hazet_filme/02_film_gallileo/

Yep they sure do. Elroy would venture to say those are powdered slugs being cold worked and yet to be sintered.

 

[Paladin]

How about Sintered in Sri Lanka

Ohhh, that sounds NICE! Reeks of quality!

 

[Monte]

As far as I know sockets are made out of round bar, then cut to length and forged.

A video from Gedore where you see the bars cut and forged:

click

 

[billymade]

Monte, in the Hazet video, do they explain (I don't know German) the process of making the sockets?

 

[Elroy]

Oh you mean like this 50 year old V-Series Craftsman.

Actually Elroy was unaware that anyone still used this obsolete method of manufactre. Guess Gedore can still aford to utilize this labor intensive method in Brazil.

 

[Monte]

Monte, in the Hazet video, do they explain (I don't know German) the process of making the sockets?

They only say that they take the blank , then press the square in it and then machine it on the lathe and how they make the hex which you see in the video and that they add the knurling and size indication.

On the "Matador" website they explain it:

The round bar will be cut or sawed into pieces and then put into a "bulge-machine" (Stauchmaschine) where the blanks will be pressed in 3 steps to the right size. Then the blanks will be electric heated to 1100 degreee celsius and then forged. After the forging process the machining begins (turning, broaching, embossing, milling)

Matador

 

[plinker]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte
sintered metal sockets ? sure ?

What? You don't believe there is such a thing.

Do a search on "metal injection molding" also.
(mainly used for gun parts/ not the best way of doing things, IMO)


I got a couple of S-K sockets replaced recently they were hot broached.

 

[autoace]

You learn something everyday, Thanks Elroy! I had no idea about the powdered metal socket manufacturing process. I still see lathe marks on some current Cornwell sockets I think!...others I don't. The powdered metal doesn't sound very great per say, kinda sounds like a basic casting process.

 

[J.A.F.E.]

Elroy thank you for the informative post and, as always, the great photos.

 

[Jononon]

Oops

+10 characters

 

[Jononon]

Yep they sure do. Elroy would venture to say those are powdered slugs being cold worked and yet to be sintered.

I think you've misunderstood what you've been told, the green compact isn't cold worked in a powdered metallurgy process.

Far from powdered metallurgy being the "manufacturing technique...currently used by ALL manufactures", the cold working process, whereby a solid rod is forced into plastic deformation over a lubricated die, as shown in the Hazet video, typifies current high quality production.

Have you ever seen a socket that said Forged in China, USA, Taiwan or Germany?? Nope.

Yup.