VISE REPAIR 101 all vise repairs, lubricants, sources for parts and the tricks to fix

[offgridguy]

Since I am new to this site, I am still finding my way around. My thread
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5162605#post5162605
Should have been posted in this forum.

I have been working my way through this thread, the restorations depicted here are works of art, hat's off to everyone who contributed such an ambitious project.
A far cry from my simple needs of a vise that will spend it's life outdoors, bolted to my welding table, getting weld spatter and grinder nicks. Of course for my woodworking vise, life
is easier.

 

[offgridguy]

Dumb question, but I've just read thru this thread and haven't seen a lot of the stuff that would normally be covered in a "101" level class.

Parts of a vise, what are they? Other than vice/vise, are there parts that go by multiple names?

Types of vises?

General instructions on disassembling vises?

I agree with this BikerDad , this thread is more of an advanced class geared to
people who have access to a well equipped Machine shop. Not much for a novice who just wants to get a broken vise operable again.

 

[GETRIDAONE]

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62717
There is more info here

 

[drivesitfar]

OFFGRID: what is your question? it seems you need a screw removed or replaced and maybe something else for your vise? there are plenty of examples of screw removing and replacing without having a machine shop.

since you are going to treat your vise like a POS and leave it outside i'd suggest you spray something on it to keep it from rusting and put plenty of grease on it.

i don't have a machine shop and i can do more than the basics with just a few hand tools and many examples here. one of our members even uses a hand drill to remove screws and showed us how a few weeks ago.

i agree there is a lot on this thread, but it's a lot easier than going to 100 threads to get a piece here and there like before i started this thread.

good luck and if you have a specific question post up a few pictures and ask questions. ok?

 

[offgridguy]

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62717
There is more info here

Thanks for the link, this is what I was looking for.

 

[offgridguy]

OFFGRID: what is your question? it seems you need a screw removed or replaced and maybe something else for your vise? there are plenty of examples of screw removing and replacing without having a machine shop.

since you are going to treat your vise like a POS and leave it outside i'd suggest you spray something on it to keep it from rusting and put plenty of grease on it.

i don't have a machine shop and i can do more than the basics with just a few hand tools and many examples here. one of our members even uses a hand drill to remove screws and showed us how a few weeks ago.

i agree there is a lot on this thread, but it's a lot easier than going to 100 threads to get a piece here and there like before i started this thread.

good luck and if you have a specific question post up a few pictures and ask questions. ok?

I am not trying to poke a stick in anybody's eye, sorry if you took it that way.

 

[drivesitfar]

Off: we get a few idiots that pop in and get banned and then pop in again. heck they might be on the internet in prison. sorry if i was a little short because usually i'm very patient with the new members giving them a chance to find out almost anything they need. also willing to help.

thanks for the apology of sorts and just ask if you need anything and maybe one of the guys with a similar vise or issue will help you.

also if you are going to put the vise outside which might be the best spot to use it i've seen some members cover their vises with an old car or truck oil pan, but i'd still spray it or rub in a few coats of Boiled linseed oil or wax and plenty of grease on the parts that need it.

cheers

 

[offgridguy]

@ drivesitfar, Thank you for the comments, as far as my vise being used outside , I do keep it covered, as far as treating it like a POS, you are not far wrong there either, my main metalworking vise is an unknown Chinese made 6 inch vise, not fancy at all but very durable and plenty good for what I use it for. I wouldn't even consider using a good quality vise in this manner. In fact most of the restorations I see here, I wouldn't use
either, I would have them in my living room.

 

[Fretters]

In fact most of the restorations I see here, I wouldn't use
either, I would have them in my living room.

Restored or not, it's practically criminal not to use something for its designed purpose, (I do realise the irony of that statement when coming from someone who has a stash of restored vices awaiting use).

One example; My main bench vice this last twenty odd years was finally fettled and then put straight back to use. The vice you can vaguely see in the background of the second photo is another restored vice which gets frequent use too.

I agree with this BikerDad , this thread is more of an advanced class geared to
people who have access to a well equipped Machine shop. Not much for a novice who just wants to get a broken vise operable again.

Not at all. There are some who have more machinery than some of us could ever hope to have, but even those of us who have some machinery available don't necessarily use it much, if at all. You'd be surprised just how much can be done with nothing more than basic hand tools. I have a few machines which only need final touches to get them in full working order, for example, but even now I still have them on the "I'll get round to them one day" list, as I still tend to prefer using hand tools. Machinery adds ease and speed, but not necessarily improvement. In fact, the only machine I currently have in usable condition is the bench pillar drill.

 

[bagged89s10]

VISE REPAIR 101 all vise repairs, lubricants, sources for parts and the trick...

What's the best way to repair the broken foot on this Columbian 607? Cut a piece of steel to fit then have a welder weld it on or braze it?

 

[drivesitfar]

Bagged: i've seen many awesome fixes for that situation on this thread and the main vise thread. Balane just did one with a vise he owns without welding it, but sorry i can't recall how exactly. he posted it over on the main vise thread or hear so you can find it or PM him and let us know again.

good luck and i do like a 7 inch vise even if Columbian isn't in my top 2 or 3 brands.

Fretters: your posts always put a smile to my face. keep up the great work and show us one of those lathes in action one of these days. ok?

cheers

 

[reivertom]

reivertom, I have had luck removing the Dynamic jaw support and resting a 1/2" plate where the square slide rests and then creating a jack set up with a 1/2 bolt with a coupling nut and another bolt and use this setup as a jack, you can get to your pin from underneath. If this is not possible and you already tried heat and penetrating solution then you will have to drill a relief hole through the pin and basically ruin it. After drilling the relief hole I would weld a slide hammer to pull the pin out. I have a 272 and would offer a drawing if you have to make a new one. I am on my way out for 5 days of Elk scouting but can help with the drawing when I get back. PM me

Hey Mr. J.M.Scott,
I tried to PM you, but I haven't had much luck with that on this forum for some reason. Can you explain in more detail how you make the "mini-jack" with the bolt coupling? Thanks

 

[GETRIDAONE]

Hey Mr. J.M.Scott,
I tried to PM you, but I haven't had much luck with that on this forum for some reason. Can you explain in more detail how you make the "mini-jack" with the bolt coupling? Thanks

Here is a jack that is made of 1/2" pieces. You will need one made with 3\8" because the small end on your pin is a hair smaller than 1/2". If you haven't already, drive the swivel jaw retaining pin out From the side. I would also clamp the swivel portion down so if the pin is stuck in the top part it will push it apart from the main housing and put pressure on the inside mating shoulders and possibly break them. The swivel could come out with pin still stuck in the top part. Good Luck !!

 

[KMScott]

Hey Mr. J.M.Scott,
I tried to PM you, but I haven't had much luck with that on this forum for some reason. Can you explain in more detail how you make the "mini-jack" with the bolt coupling? Thanks

Here is a jack that is made of 1/2" pieces. You will need one made with 3\8" because the small end on your pin is a hair smaller than 1/2". If you haven't already, drive the swivel jaw retaining pin out From the side. I would also clamp the swivel portion down so if the pin is stuck in the top part it will push it apart from the main housing and put pressure on the inside mating shoulders and possibly break them. The swivel could come out with pin still stuck in the top part. Good Luck !!

This issue has been talked about more then once so I dug out a Prentiss swivel Jaw vise that is a # 20, it actually had a stuck pin and this is my first choice on getting these stuck Swivel Pins out. First I add a plate that covers the dovetail nut support, you do not want to put any pressure on any cast with a small bolt head. My picture is fuzzy but there is a 1/4 flat plate held in by magnets. The next picture gives a view from underneath the swivel pin, the hole goes all the way through the Static Jaw Support. A 3/8 bolt fit pretty good in the clearance hole.

<a href="https://visejaws.smugmug.com/Vise-Repairs/i-ksR8nJW/A"><img src="https://visejaws.smugmug.com/Vise-Repairs/i-ksR8nJW/0/S/Pushing%20a%20Swivel%20Pin%20%281%29%20-%20Copy-S.jpg" alt="Photo & Video Sharing by SmugMug"></a> <a href="https://visejaws.smugmug.com/Vise-Repairs/i-KLp8xLR/A"><img src="https://visejaws.smugmug.com/Vise-Repairs/i-KLp8xLR/0/S/Pushing%20a%20Swivel%20Pin%20%283%29%20-%20Copy-S.jpg" alt="Photo & Video Sharing by SmugMug"></a>

Then I made a set up like GETRIDAONE did. I like the coupling type nut to give more strength and adjustment in the threads, fit the sawed end so you get as much threads for adjusting.

Then use two wrenches to push out the swivel pin, mine popped pretty easy.

<a href="https://visejaws.smugmug.com/Vise-Repairs/i-5WbVNSK/A"><img src="https://visejaws.smugmug.com/Vise-Repairs/i-5WbVNSK/0/M/Pushing%20a%20Swivel%20Pin%20%286%29%20-%20Copy-M.jpg" alt="Photo & Video Sharing by SmugMug"></a>

You can see some rust on the pin which is mostly the reason these pins get stuck.

<a href="https://visejaws.smugmug.com/Vise-Repairs/i-cHqHDRk/A"><img src="https://visejaws.smugmug.com/Vise-Repairs/i-cHqHDRk/0/S/Pushing%20a%20Swivel%20Pin%20%287%29%20-%20Copy-S.jpg" alt="Photo & Video Sharing by SmugMug"></a>

You might have to apply heat to the swivel jaw and Static Jaw Support if not successful. Do not heat the pin, heat the casting, you want the casting to grow not the pin. Yes the pin gets hot but for a minute or two the casting will grow some.

If this does not work then drilling the largest hole possible that is a little under size the clearance hole where the push pin is. For my vise a .390 hole drilled in the center of the pin would be the biggest I'd use and it would relieve some pressure. If this still doesn't work then a slide hammer welded to the top should do the job. Good luck reivertom, let us know how how you did.

 

[reivertom]

Thanks guys. I really love this old iron and would love to get started making it look **** again! :^) I was unsure exactly how the setup worked, but a little photo cleared it up. I was thinking of a turnbuckle type nut. I often over think things. Thanks again. It will be a while before I get to this because house stuff has come up, but I will let you guys know how it went.

 

[reivertom]

Well.....I couldn't stand it so I tried to use the "mini jack" today with no luck. I felt like I had a real good push on it and tightened it until I was getting nervous. I beat on it with a copper hammer and heated around it as much as I could with a propane torch. This thing is "welded" in there by 95 years of neglect. Do you guys think it might loosen up if I degreased it and zapped it in an electrolysis tank for a day or two? I thought maybe the electrolysis might remove the rust in the deep cracks and places I can't reach.

 

[drivesitfar]

Reiv: hopefully you don't have one of the pins that a prior owner put thread on. i'd say try to turn it if you can without breaking it. also spray some kroil in the pin and tap and a little more kroil and tap and let it sit a day or two then try the press again.

E tank can help too so if you are planning on doing that go ahead and give it a good dunk before trying to remove it again.

good luck

 

[bagged89s10]

Well.....I couldn't stand it so I tried to use the "mini jack" today with no luck. I felt like I had a real good push on it and tightened it until I was getting nervous. I beat on it with a copper hammer and heated around it as much as I could with a propane torch. This thing is "welded" in there by 95 years of neglect. Do you guys think it might loosen up if I degreased it and zapped it in an electrolysis tank for a day or two? I thought maybe the electrolysis might remove the rust in the deep cracks and places I can't reach.

Yes give it 2 rounds in the etank. Then soak the pin in a 50/50 mix of acetone/transmission fluid while the vise is right side up for 24'hours. Then flip the vise over and soak the pin in the same penetrant again for 24 hours. Then beat the pin out with a large punch and hammer, or use the jack that you built. It should come out. That's how I got my last stubborn pin out.

 

[jrobb316]

Well.....I couldn't stand it so I tried to use the "mini jack" today with no luck. I felt like I had a real good push on it and tightened it until I was getting nervous. I beat on it with a copper hammer and heated around it as much as I could with a propane torch. This thing is "welded" in there by 95 years of neglect. Do you guys think it might loosen up if I degreased it and zapped it in an electrolysis tank for a day or two? I thought maybe the electrolysis might remove the rust in the deep cracks and places I can't reach.

Good suggestions from guys with experience. I have one waiting in the wings whenever I get to it that is seized. Already have my SS replacement from Mr. Scott too. What I can tell you is that heating just about anything with a propane torch is a waste of your time, when we are talking about heat, we are talking about oxyacetylene. Save the propane for lighting your grill, you'll have better luck with that

 

[Shiftless]

Good suggestions from guys with experience. I have one waiting in the wings whenever I get to it that is seized. Already have my SS replacement from Mr. Scott too. What I can tell you is that heating just about anything with a propane torch is a waste of your time, when we are talking about heat, we are talking about oxyacetylene. Save the propane for lighting your grill, you'll have better luck with that

What does everybody think about heating a seized vise with a 60,000 BTU propane powered "hot dog" style heater?

 

[reivertom]

Good suggestions from guys with experience. I have one waiting in the wings whenever I get to it that is seized. Already have my SS replacement from Mr. Scott too. What I can tell you is that heating just about anything with a propane torch is a waste of your time, when we are talking about heat, we are talking about oxyacetylene. Save the propane for lighting your grill, you'll have better luck with that

I don't have access to a real torch, so I have to dance with who brung me. I'm really loving this old hunk of iron and I'm getting a bit anxious about winning this battle. The only good thing is that it is still a very good stationary vice if I can't get it to swivel. I thought for sure it would pop out with the pressure it had on it from the mini jack, so I am bummed.

 

[drivesitfar]

Shift: i'm sure it would work and if you don't care about the paint job maybe a great idea. sort of like a BFH idea isn't it? since you probably know the science on this what do you think? i'm wondering if you need to have a blanket or BBQ handy that is heated up to cool the vise down slower?

Bagged: I know you have good intentions, but cast will crack so the beating should be within reason. just go back a couple days on the vise thread to see CW's swivel jaw vise that cracked where he couldn't see it before taking it apart. so have you tried Kroil and does it work as well or better than your ATF mix or is the ATF less expensive?

JRobb: still working on getting space cleared so I have room for a good welder and an ACY/OXY set up. can you use too much heat on cast?

 

[Shiftless]

Drives: (and anybody else that wants to chime in...
Here is a great example of a vise with a paint job nobody would care about. It is my 4 inch bullet with the seized slide. It has been sitting on its tail for 2 months with almost daily squirts of Kroil and bangs with a big rubber hammer. Not budging. I tried the mini jack with a machine screw and nut between the jaws...no luck. There is a 5/8 inch gap between the jaws.
Electrolysis maybe next?
Propane heater?
20 ton hydraulic press?
Soak in 5 gallons of ATF/acetone?
5 gallons of Vinegar?

Main screw is out. That part is as good as new. I don't want to give up and part it out because the jaws are like new, the swivel is in great shape, no gouges on the jaw towers, straight handle, a Chicago casting. Missing the horsecollar but no broken screws in the 3 holes. Can't wait to see the date on the slide and add it to the list.

 

[drivesitfar]

Shift: I dropped this Prentiss vise in a 3 gallon bucket of vinegar for 2 weeks and it came apart easily. unfortunately the handle was still stuck so i put that end in the bucket and accidentally stuck some shelving in front of the bucket and forgot about it for a couple months. Vinegar will eat cast iron if left on it so that vise became a science project which it was anyway because of a huge braze on top of the swivel jaw.

now if you put it in a bucket of vinegar for a couple weeks and rinse and dry it off if it comes apart you are good to go. several members have dropped their wiltons in a bucket of diesel for a couple weeks and pulled them out and their vises came apart and they restored them like new.

two choices you can do and electrolysis could work too if you have one set up give it a try.

good luck and let us know which method you tried and if it worked.

 

[bagged89s10]

Shift: i'm sure it would work and if you don't care about the paint job maybe a great idea. sort of like a BFH idea isn't it? since you probably know the science on this what do you think? i'm wondering if you need to have a blanket or BBQ handy that is heated up to cool the vise down slower?



Bagged: I know you have good intentions, but cast will crack so the beating should be within reason. just go back a couple days on the vise thread to see CW's swivel jaw vise that cracked where he couldn't see it before taking it apart. so have you tried Kroil and does it work as well or better than your ATF mix or is the ATF less expensive?



JRobb: still working on getting space cleared so I have room for a good welder and an ACY/OXY set up. can you use too much heat on cast?

Drives, acetone/transmission fluid mix is much cheaper than kroil and I find it to work amazing. Yes I agree the beating on cast should be within reason.

 

[zkling]

Drives: (and anybody else that wants to chime in...
Here is a great example of a vise with a paint job nobody would care about. It is my 4 inch bullet with the seized slide. It has been sitting on its tail for 2 months with almost daily squirts of Kroil and bangs with a big rubber hammer. Not budging. I tried the mini jack with a machine screw and nut between the jaws...no luck. There is a 5/8 inch gap between the jaws.
Electrolysis maybe next?
Propane heater?
20 ton hydraulic press?
Soak in 5 gallons of ATF/acetone?
5 gallons of Vinegar?

Main screw is out. That part is as good as new. I don't want to give up and part it out because the jaws are like new, the swivel is in great shape, no gouges on the jaw towers, straight handle, a Chicago casting. Missing the horsecollar but no broken screws in the 3 holes. Can't wait to see the date on the slide and add it to the list.

Try adding a high frequency low intensity vibration to it. For example a cheap electric tooth brush strapped to the side. You can also place it under constant tension to help it in the right direction. This could be something as simple as a weight on a rope, just use common sense for what might happen if it would fall. The vibrations help to get the penetrate into all the nooks and crannies.

 

[Shiftless]

Try adding a high frequency low intensity vibration to it. For example a cheap electric tooth brush strapped to the side. You can also place it under constant tension to help it in the right direction. This could be something as simple as a weight on a rope, just use common sense for what might happen if it would fall. The vibrations help to get the penetrate into all the nooks and crannies.

zk:
The vibration idea is something I hadn't thought about. It is logical. That's the reason tapping with a hammer sometimes helps. Something to vibrate it all the time would be like having 3 shifts of employees hitting on it 24/7.
I put it under constant tension for a week while shooting Kroil into the edges of the slide. I cut a 1/4 inch bolt down to just a hair smaller than the gap, then threaded a nut onto the cut end, slipped it into the 5/8 gap in the jaws right in the center, then - using 2 open end wrenches- backed out the nut. Call it a spreader? Lots of force though.... no luck.
I'll try the spreader with daily Kroil and your vibration idea. (Later...when I get back home a week from now)
I am a bit reluctant to try electrolysis because if the slide is still stuck after its bath, I've got water inside. But I guess that is what drying ovens are for...
I have a little ultrasonic jewelry type cleaner. Somewhere is a guy with a huge one suitable for soaking stuck vises!
I will definately report to you guys about my success or lack of.

 

[zkling]

You took the screw out, did you also knock the dust cap out? If so what does it look like in there? Have you thought about trying to pull the pins and remove the nut, that way you can get to the back of the slide?

You could try a little heat on the body, but the idea of thermal expansion doesn't work too great on pieces like this that have similar cross sections. I have a nut/screw for a post vise sitting now that looks like a lost cause. Still soaking in atf.

 

[Shiftless]

You took the screw out, did you also knock the dust cap out? If so what does it look like in there? Have you thought about trying to pull the pins and remove the nut, that way you can get to the back of the slide?

You could try a little heat on the body, but the idea of thermal expansion doesn't work too great on pieces like this that have similar cross sections. I have a nut/screw for a post vise sitting now that looks like a lost cause. Still soaking in atf.

zk
Thanks for the advice.
Yes, I removed the dust cap right away to set the vise upright on its tail. (It also was in perfect condition) I used a trick I learned on this thread, I think from Drives or ???...remove the main screw, get a wooden dowel that just fits through the vise nut and tap gently. The end cap popped right off, undamaged. I refined the dowel trick by rounding off the end with a radius to roughly match the inside of the vise end cap.

Anyway, that is a good idea to remove the nut to get better access to the slide. It looks dark and rusty in there. Those mini LED flashlights are great inspection tools, aren't they?

 

[dkroth]

Electrolysis maybe next?
Propane heater?
20 ton hydraulic press?
Soak in 5 gallons of ATF/acetone?
5 gallons of Vinegar?

I would go after the rust.

There's a decent amount of clearance between the slide and the body of the vise. You've got rust in there locking it all up.

I'd try electrolysis or Evaporust because it's set it and forget it. Electrolysis is much less expensive, obviously.

 

[vintage nut]

I freed up a big blacksmith vise recently. The joint between the legs was siezed/rusted solid. My approach was a propane/mapp gas torch (I figured a rosebud might be a bit hard on it) lots of atf and acetone, and daily beatings with a lead hammer. I got it loosened up enough after a month or so that I could drive the pivot bolt out with a sledgehammer and beat it apart.
My personal recommendation is soak on the penetrant, warm it up, and beat it with a soft hammer (deadblow, lead, rawhide, ect)
Repeat daily until it gives up and comes apart.

Sent from my C1904 using Tapatalk

 

[vintage nut]

For taking drill press columns out of the base, I've blocked it up so the column could be hit down through (I used sawhorses and firewood) and took a piece of wood that was about the same diameter as the stuck part, stuck it in, and beat it with a sledgehammer. After soaking it for a while it popped right out.

I'd probably try my first recommendation for a month or so, and if it's still stuck then try the wood and bfh to see if the little shock pops it loose. 9 out of 10 times it will

Sent from my C1904 using Tapatalk

 

[Shiftless]

Vintage:
Thanks for sharing your experiences. I will add heat to the equation and continued beatings along with daily squirts of Kroil and the constant vibration zk suggested and the mini spreader between the jaws. If that fails, it goes into electrolysis.

 

[Fretters]

Now that you have the leascrew, cap and nut out, I'd personally shove a length of threaded rod through it running through a strip of 3/8" mild flat at either end, (to act as washers/bearers against the ends), pop a nut on either end and give those one half to full turn occasionally, to gradually try and close it. Lather it with oil on the slide, inside the body and out, and it should give eventually. Once you crack the rust bond, you'll probably find the amount of rust which was actually binding it will have been practically nonexistent. It's amazing just how little can completely bind close fitting parts.

 

[1982fxr]

diesel bath...

 

[Shiftless]

Now that you have the leascrew, cap an nut out, I'd personally shove a length of threaded rod through it running throuch a strip of 3/8" mild flat at either end, (to act as washers/bearers against the ends), pop a nut on either end and give those one half to full turn occasionally, to gradually try and close it. Lather it with oil on the slide, inside the body and out, and it should give eventually. Once you crack the rust bond, you'll probably find the amount of rust which was actually binding it will have been practically nonexistent. It's amazing just how little can completely bind close fitting parts.

Fretters:
That's a great idea. Equivalent to a hydraulic press but more controllable and since I don't have a press, much more economical.

 

[drivesitfar]

Shift: that old git (hope that is an enduring word and not a swear word) knows a thing or two that is for sure. if you do that method Fretters just mentioned please take a few pictures and post them. sounds like you don't want to reef on it that way, but maybe a little coaxing with free it up.

here's a link where a member used diesel a couple years ago to free up his Wilton bullet that might help you.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=224972&highlight=wilton+diesel&page=3

82: i mentioned diesel too, but I'm guessing a lot of members and Shiftless doesn't have any sitting around. vinegar works pretty much the same, but you need to make sure to rinse and wipe it all off because it will continue to eat cast iron.

 

[Shiftless]

Shift: that old git (hope that is an enduring word and not a swear word) knows a thing or two that is for sure. if you do that method Fretters just mentioned please take a few pictures and post them. sounds like you don't want to reef on it that way, but maybe a little coaxing with free it up.

here's a link where a member used diesel a couple years ago to free up his Wilton bullet that might help you.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=224972&highlight=wilton+diesel&page=3

82: i mentioned diesel too, but I'm guessing a lot of members and Shiftless doesn't have any sitting around. vinegar works pretty much the same, but you need to make sure to rinse and wipe it all off because it will continue to eat cast iron.

Thanks to all who have offered advise
I am not unwilling to try the diesel bath at some point, but I don't relish the idea of getting rid of 4-5 gallons of dirty fuel. I doubt that it could be filtered and used in an engine.
I will try the allthread idea first along with electrolysis. I promise pictures too.

 

[CwazyWabbit]

You'll find plenty of uses for a bucket of dirty diesel, keep it outside somewhere with a lid on it and whenever you have something that's seized it's ready to do it's work

 

[drivesitfar]

Shift: the powers at be might not allow a bucket of diesel outside your shop so maybe buy a huge pot normally for flowers and use that with a painted black plywood lid. Just saying CW's idea is a good one and price is good for diesel now i think because gas was 2.09 last night.