Copper or black pipe for gas outside?

[reader2580]

I am installing a natural gas standby generator. The generator will be five to six feet from the gas meter. Can I use copper above ground for this, or do I need to go with black pipe? (All of my natural gas inside the house is copper.) Is copper out because it needs to be protected from damage for that long a run outside?

My previous house also had a standby generator that I placed about two feet from the house. The HVAC guys ran copper for that generator, but two feet is a lot different than five or six feet.

 

[MarkWilliams60]

I had a heavy equipment shop make me up a hydraulic hose and fittings for mine. If stuff falls or a storm or ? no problems. It's been in for 15 years.

 

[Stuart in MN]

I know copper is allowed for gas lines inside the house in Minnesota but am not sure about outdoors. On the industrial projects I work on, generators are always hooked up with galvanized pipe.

I'd check with your gas company (whether it's Centerpoint Energy or Xcel or whoever) to see what they say. I know there's also a document online somewhere that describes Minnesota regulations for gas lines but I can't find it right now.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Is the pipe going to be buried?

 

[BD1]

I would say pipe is exposed. I would only use black pipe. Black pipe is heavy wall compared to copper , can be secured and supported properly, and a lot more durable then copper. It would take a lot to damage pipe. I would also add a gas shutoff valve at generator too.

 

[reader2580]

I had a heavy equipment shop make me up a hydraulic hose and fittings for mine. If stuff falls or a storm or ? no problems. It's been in for 15 years.

Is a hydraulic hose really legal for gas?

 

[Hpozzuoli]

Black pipe. Should be code in your area.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

This comes up a lot, so let me give the definitive "non-answer" for the use of copper for natural gas lines in the United States.

Per the national fuel code it may be allowed or it may be prohibited.

Helpful? Not really.

Turns out that natural gas, is a mixture of many different gasses and that composition can vary widely from area to area or even over time as different sources of supply are bringing gas to a particular market area. Some of those gas supplies may contain trace amounts of Sulfur compounds that can be highly corrosive to copper. If there is even a POTENTIAL for high sulfur content in the gas stream then the national fuel code Prohibits copper gas lines.

Your go-to "expert" for this issue is your natural gas supplier (Local gas distribution company) who can tell you if they allow copper, discourage copper, or prohibit copper gas lines on the customer side of the meter. If you live in a locality that has building codes and/or inspectors, you will want to check with them as well.

That being said I can say the following with certainty:

Properly threaded black pipe is allowed to be used (at pressures of 5 psi or less) for natural gas. Assuming it's sized properly and installed in the correct manner, it will provide years of good trouble-free service.

Hydraulic hose is not an approved natural gas piping material. Not saying it won't work. Not saying it's not safe. Just saying your gas company might have to redtag you if they see it depending on their procedures.

Good luck!

Phil

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Had a similar issue...I didn't want Black pipe for rust issues.

Indoors I used black pipe, but switched to Stainless Steel pipe when I transitioned thru my wall...all Stainless Pipe outside. Heavy Wall just like the black pipe...was able to shine it up a little so it looks awesome and will look awesome for years to come.

That being said, I would ASSUME Copper is OK, I stubbed out to where I wanted the tank, and when the supplier did the install, he used Copper to go from the tank to the wall/stub...

 

[HoosierBuddy]

That being said, I would ASSUME Copper is OK, I stubbed out to where I wanted the tank, and when the supplier did the install, he used Copper to go from the tank to the wall/stub...

Spudland Dave brings up another great point of confusion.

If you have a tank you have propane or lpg service and not natural gas. They are completely different animals and my comments above ONLY APPLY TO NATURAL GAS which the OP indicated was what he had.

Phil

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

Around here Copper clad in yellow PVC, CSST clad in yellow or black PVC, and black iron are all fine indoors or out for propane.

CSST clad in yellow or black PVC, and black iron are all fine indoors or out for natural gas.

Galvanized pipe, Stainless pipe/tube, and Hydraulic hose are all fails...

Yes I know CSST stands for corrugated stainless steel tubing but it is also about identifying the pipe in the future. Galvanized is for water (and the zinc flakes off inside the pipe), Stainless is not really for anything -compressed air maybe, and Hydraulic hose is for, well Hydraulic stuff...

 

[Spudland_Dave]

Stainless is not really for anything -compressed air maybe,

Your experience may be limited to Automotive & Home...but out in industry virtually EVERYTHING is run thru stainless... I've been in paper mills plumbed exclusively in stainless...work in a plant now where the only piping allowed on the property is Stainless. I'm actually trying to come up with an application where stainless isnt used...air, potable water, mill water, fuels, oils, gases...
Honestly the ONLY non-stainless I've seen where I'm currently working is the Sprinkler system plumbing...


Once you price out Stainless pipe...

 

[reader2580]

This will be above ground. City inspector said he thought copper piping used for gas outdoors has to be protected from impact, but he wasn't 100% sure. It sounds like black pipe is the way to go. I just don't like working with black pipe because it is so hard to figure out the right order to tighten up everything.

I will probably end up hiring a plumber or HVAC person to take care of the black pipe. Should I use a union at the generator? I have read not to use unions with gas because they can be almost impossible to get to not leak.

 

[WanderingSol07]

Inside I had copper feed to gas hot water. Contractor said it is okay as long as the copper line was coated inside to prevent the gas reacting with the copper.

 

[manwithtools]

Inside I had copper feed to gas hot water. Contractor said it is okay as long as the copper line was coated inside to prevent the gas reacting with the copper.

It used to be that tin coated copper lines were allowed for natural gas in some locations, it was expensive and most would only use it where it made sense for it's ease of routing compared to black iron. Not sure if it's still allowed or even available.

 

[CNGsaves]

This will be above ground. City inspector said he thought copper piping used for gas outdoors has to be protected from impact, but he wasn't 100% sure. It sounds like black pipe is the way to go. I just don't like working with black pipe because it is so hard to figure out the right order to tighten up everything.

I will probably end up hiring a plumber or HVAC person to take care of the black pipe. Should I use a union at the generator? I have read not to use unions with gas because they can be almost impossible to get to not leak.

Yes, black pipe steel for ABOVE ground is best for your genset. Just paint the pipe when complete. If you look at your gas meter . . . YEP, that's black pipe steel fittings above ground and it's been painted. You do the same.

Just like your meter, YES you'll want a union where the genset connects. That way it can be disconnected for maintenance if whole genset needs worked on or replaced. Obviously, you'll want a shutoff valve in black pipe steel just before the union.

These are same answers that any genset installer would give you nationwide, or likely worldwide.

Don't really understand why MN has such love for copper for NG lines.

Hooiser's reply above is your GO TO expert/guru. Listen and follow his lead.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

Your experience may be limited to Automotive & Home...but out in industry virtually EVERYTHING is run thru stainless... I've been in paper mills plumbed exclusively in stainless...work in a plant now where the only piping allowed on the property is Stainless. I'm actually trying to come up with an application where stainless isnt used...air, potable water, mill water, fuels, oils, gases...

I am well aware of the industrial applications of stainless. That being said, any stainless pipe used for nat. gas or propane piping (that is not clad in yellow PVC) in a residential setting is a big fail. The contents of said pipe need to be easily identified as to avoid accidents. Grey PVC or thinwall galvanized conduit = electric. Black iron or yellow clad piping = fuel oil or gasses. Bare copper, pex, cpvc, galvanized iron pipe = water, etc...

 

[reader2580]

Don't really understand why MN has such love for copper for NG lines.

Copper is certainly less labor intensive than black pipe. Materials cost is probably the same or less than black pipe and all the fittings.

I am pretty sure I'm going to hire someone to run the pipe, but I might have to buy materials. I am going to spend a little extra for USA made fittings at the plumbing supply house if I buy them. Can I use Home Depot threaded black pipe since they cut to length?

 

[BD1]

I would buy pipe from supply with the fittings. Box store pipe can be made in China, Turkey, Mexico, or who knows where. Besides that , I tried to thread some for a neighbor, it kept chewing up threads . Some of the import pipe can have any kind of steel in it. Some can also have hard spots in it. I vote for the real made in USA.

 

[reader2580]

I don't have access to a pipe threading machine. That is why I am thinking about using Home Depot for the pipe as they will cut and thread it.

 

[brewchief]

I would buy pipe from supply with the fittings. Box store pipe can be made in China, Turkey, Mexico, or who knows where. Besides that , I tried to thread some for a neighbor, it kept chewing up threads . Some of the import pipe can have any kind of steel in it. Some can also have hard spots in it. I vote for the real made in USA.

Out of 5 or 6 real supply houses I deal with I think 2 have pipe made in the US, none of them have fittings made in the USA, some is quite decent despite being made offshore and some is ****, big box stores have about the same stuff.

Several of the supply houses here have been in a race to the bottom to see who can offer the cheapest price, they overlook quality and service in order to beat everyone elses price, it's funny to watch them undercut each other to get the business of the low bidder contractor who can't pay his bills anyway.

 

[manwithtools]

Out of 5 or 6 real supply houses I deal with I think 2 have pipe made in the US, none of them have fittings made in the USA, some is quite decent despite being made offshore and some is ****, big box stores have about the same stuff.

Several of the supply houses here have been in a race to the bottom to see who can offer the cheapest price, they overlook quality and service in order to beat everyone elses price, it's funny to watch them undercut each other to get the business of the low bidder contractor who can't pay his bills anyway.

WOW, someone who will tell it like it is. With commodity items like pipe and fittings there is no option for supply houses other than to source from the lowest cost wholesaler. I don't like it, but I do understand it and it is what it is.

I wish it was different, but it's really not any better than what you describe. It's hard to buy the good stuff anymore - if it's even produced.

 

[reader2580]

A local plumbing supply house shows Ward pipe fittings made in the USA on their website. They charge double what Menards charges so I hope they are really made in the USA.

 

[BD1]

In Northern Illinois you can still get MADE IN USA PIPE and screwed FITTINGS .
WELD fittings like WELDBEND can be found but the imports are found ALL over.
It's sad what has happened to the industry of today.

 

[Stuart in MN]

Don't really understand why MN has such love for copper for NG lines.

My understanding of the issue (and I may be wrong) is natural gas has different formulations in different parts of the country; in some areas, it may be corrosive to copper lines, but here that's not an issue.

They typically use soft copper here, at least inside residential buildings. One big advantage is you don't need joints, they just roll it out and bend it as necessary to get from the gas meter to your furnace or other appliances.

 

[marinusdees]

FWIW A friend who is a pipe fitter did some gas plumbing for his daughter. The threads on the black pipe from the box stores was so lousy he had leak problems..He found a local source for MILspec pipe which worked. Not sayin' it was wonderful, but...

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . I'd give plumbing wholesaler WinNelson a try. They've had quality products when I've needed black pipe steel here in midwest. At least you'd have something in comparison to big box stores, which I'd consider last choice unless you pre-fit all the items in store BEFORE purchasing.

Looks like there is a WinNelson in Minneapolis area called Twin Cities WinNelson.
http://localbiziness.com/biz/twin-cities-winnelson-company-d1dd0ad47

Don't forget plenty of Rector 5 sealant (pipe dope) or the yellow teflon tape for all your fittings and test with soapy water for leaks. Good luck.

 

[engineer2]

My parent's house had type K copper NG service when it was built. It started leaking 20 years later and you could see the gas bubbling out of the wet ground. The gas company was there the next day to fix it and pulled PEX thru the old line.

For above ground black iron pipe, make sure you apply pipe dope to both the male and female threads. This is per a relative who worked for the gas company.

 

[reader2580]

I would probably go to a place called Winnick Supply (winnicksupply.com) for my plumbing stuff. They are only 8 miles away and they sell to the public.

 

[James-W]

Copper is certainly less labor intensive than black pipe. Materials cost is probably the same or less than black pipe and all the fittings.

I am pretty sure I'm going to hire someone to run the pipe, but I might have to buy materials. I am going to spend a little extra for USA made fittings at the plumbing supply house if I buy them. Can I use Home Depot threaded black pipe since they cut to length?

If you hire someone to do the job, they should have a pipe threader along with them. I hired my garage natural gas Hot Dawg heater installed and the guy came with a truck containing the black pipe, pipe cutter cutter and threader, and all sorts of fittings to do the job.

I suggest you hire a reputable company to do the install and let them bring all the stuff needed to do the job. They will do the job correctly and if there is a problem later on, you know who to call.

 

[Stuff]

If it is a small generator which vibrates should there be a piece of outdoor rated stainless steel flex? And then no need for a union.

 

[reader2580]

I looked at dozens of images of standby generator installations and about 50% use a flexible hose and the rest are hard piped. I bought my generator used from a generator installation company, and it was hard piped originally with a union. (The generator company hooks up the generator and demonstrates that the used generators work in their shop.) The generator will be bolted to a concrete slab so vibration really shouldn't be an issue I wouldn't think.

I know someone who does HVAC and gas piping on the side who I was planning to have do the gas work for me. I haven't asked, but I doubt he has a pipe threader. I suppose I can hire a real HVAC company, but I don't really want to spend $500 on just the gas piping. I've had a couple of HVAC projects done by HVAC companies in the past 18 months and I have had problems getting companies to call me back with prices. I've been dealing with a company that is 30 miles away, but they charge more for travel.

I'm way over budget on this project compared to what I thought it would cost. I spent $940 for my 11KW Kohler generator, but I have spent nearly that much again for transfer switch, sub panel, concrete pad, and other items. I was hoping to keep it at $2,000, but that isn't happening. Even if I have to pay $500 for the gas work my total cost will be less than a new generator and transfer switch not including pad or other costs.

 

[BD1]

IF you know how to measure pipe , take your list to a HVAC shop and have them cut it and you install.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

OP . . . I'd give plumbing wholesaler WinNelson a try. They've had quality products when I've needed black pipe steel here in midwest. At least you'd have something in comparison to big box stores, which I'd consider last choice unless you pre-fit all the items in store BEFORE purchasing.

Looks like there is a WinNelson in Minneapolis area called Twin Cities WinNelson.
http://localbiziness.com/biz/twin-cities-winnelson-company-d1dd0ad47

Don't forget plenty of Rector 5 sealant (pipe dope) or the yellow teflon tape for all your fittings and test with soapy water for leaks. Good luck.

Out of 5-6 wholesalers in omaha that sell plumbing supplies theyre about the most neo nazi of the bunch.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Go to your local ace hardware and find the old grumpy guy sitting in the back,Hes the guy you want to cut/thread your pipe.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

I am well aware of the industrial applications of stainless. That being said, any stainless pipe used for nat. gas or propane piping (that is not clad in yellow PVC) in a residential setting is a big fail. The contents of said pipe need to be easily identified as to avoid accidents. Grey PVC or thinwall galvanized conduit = electric. Black iron or yellow clad piping = fuel oil or gasses. Bare copper, pex, cpvc, galvanized iron pipe = water, etc...

No requirement to have it painted/color coded...so its not a fail. Even out in industry its all just plain pipe with markings. Copper plumbing in my house is all plain copper colored...must be a fail too that some is potable water, some is not.. I almost plumbed the whole thing in stainless, but didn't want to waste it on the interior portion.
So, if I were to have a sprinkler system in my garage...those are all plumbed with black pipe...Fail as that would match the LP plumbing?

"Color Codes" may be helpful for the uneducated and unknowledgeable, but having a working knowledge of your environment is key here.

I would buy pipe from supply with the fittings. Box store pipe can be made in China, Turkey, Mexico, or who knows where. Besides that , I tried to thread some for a neighbor, it kept chewing up threads . Some of the import pipe can have any kind of steel in it. Some can also have hard spots in it. I vote for the real made in USA.

While I can not discount your statement of cheap imported pipe, If you were chunking out threads were you using correct & adequate threading lubricant? Chunked out threads usually mean dull dies and no lube...

 

[BD1]

'' While I can not discount your statement of cheap imported pipe, If you were chunking out threads were you using correct & adequate threading lubricant? Chunked out threads usually mean dull dies and no lube...''

Well, I have only been a UNION PIPEFITTER for 45 years and do know a little about pipe.

No problem, I'm glad you posted because ; this is what helps everybody on the site. There are always tips that help everyone that might not have been exposed to what is asked.

 

[Gidge]

I'd use steel pipe, but then again, I'm "old school", YMMV.

 

[mpire]

While I know absolutely nothing about gas piping, I would be leaning towards the heavier black pipe just for strength reasons. I put in a second water meter for washing cars/irrigation and I had a water line connected to a hose bib on the side of the house. The copper line got bumped/chipped/cracked and got a pinhole leak. The pipe was only a few months old, so it could have been anything. I replaced it with the thick steel pipe and it has survived just fine for years. As soon as it gets below ground it goes back to PVC.

 

[D45]

In Northern Illinois you can still get MADE IN USA PIPE and screwed FITTINGS .
WELD fittings like WELDBEND can be found but the imports are found ALL over.
It's sad what has happened to the industry of today.

This is why I LOVE my local True Value, quality MADE IN USE fittings and pipe......pay just a tad more, but well worth it

All the big box stores use China junk