Made in China is inferior because of inferior workers or reduced specifications?

[MN_Runner]

We have a lot of posts here about the perceived low quality of Chinese made tools. Conversely, we think Japanese made "Koken" tools are impeccable. So when we say made in China tools are junk: 1) Are we saying Chinese workers don't know (not smart enough) how to make good quality tools or 2) Manufacturers are lowering standards and specifications to build inferior tools per specifications? My iPhone 5S was assembled in China and has worked flawlessly for last four years so I doubt Chinese workers are inferior. When I was shopping for a new SUV, I was looking at Highlander vs. 4Runner. Although I liked the USA assembled Highlander more, bought Japan assembled 4Runner because of perceived quality difference between US assembled vs. Japan. I think Japanese workers have unsurpassed work ethics and take pride in what they do and represent. I bought two Japanese made Toyotas and the fit and finish are just excellent. Not sure about the source but there is a difference (number of defects) between per Japan made Lexus vs. Canada made Lexus.

Going to back to the Chinese made tools, I don't think the quality is lower because it was made by Chinese people but rather due to reduced standards and quality control enforced by the manufacturers. The point is that it does not matter where it is made from, if the tools are made with lower specifications and standards, the tools will be inferior. If USA tools are made with reduced standards and relaxed specifications, you will get low quality tools.

 

[trackwelder]

I have a friend who was a buyer of outdoor items and dealt with the Chinese factories directly and and would wholesale to retailers. One of the many problems he had was trying to get the factories to make the items to spec. They love to cheat on grades of materials and quality control.

 

[PFSard]

I suspect you will find that the answer is complicated.

I've worked for three different U.S. manufacturers. A wide variety of attitudes and varying quality of product. I watched some real **** sent out the door to customers.

Japan after World War II did not have a reputation for high quality.

U.S. consumers buy a lot of goods from China. A lot of tools have not been great, to say the least. But many of China's products are decent stuff. I expect you will find positive changes in China's tool quality as time progresses if the Chinese tool manufacturing industry is to flourish.

 

[555]

I'm old enough to remember when "made in Japan" got the same reviews. I've never been to China, but I have some friends who do business in China and are involved with both manufacturing and import/export. They have all told me pretty much the same story. If you contract to have something made in China, they will build it to your specifications as long as you keep a representative there to watch the processes. One of my friends is involved in the food business. He tells this story "The plant where he contracts is state of the art. Everything is made to his specifications and inspectors ensure every product meets his specifications. The cost is reasonable but not cheap for his products. Conversely, down the street the same manufacturing company has another factory. It is not state of the art and no one inspects the products. During the food manufacturing process, the workers carry in raw food products in cardboard boxes. These products are put in a mixer and the box is thrown on the floor. At the end of the day, the boxes are picked up and thrown in the mixers with the food products. The cost is cheap." I suspect some tools are made by the "cheap" factories and others are made at the state of art facilities. Each company has to decide who will make their products and how much they want to pay for them. In this case, you get what you pay for!

In the 90s I had a friend interested in expanding his line of imported goods. Everything in his line came from Mexico and it was sold in high end stores all over the US and Canada. The cost to produce these items was about 50% of the retail value. After he paid import duties and absorbed other costs/fees, he cleared about 5% on each item. Not a huge profit according to the shark tank folks, but good enough that he lived quite comfortably and he was pretty happy. Sadly, his items got stale and reduced demand had hurt his business. He looked around and found a new unique item. At the time, it was made in the USA. So he bought the item and started negotiating with the factory already producing it to make them for him. The initial estimate was $150 per item, which was more than he intended for the final selling price. He went to his contacts in Mexico and they could make the same item for $50 each, even after retooling their factory. Better, but not good enough to meet his final price objective. He pretty much gave up on producing/selling the item when one of his business associates suggested they contact China. Seven months later his first shipment of products arrived in the US. Built to his exact specifications in a state of the art facility. The manufacturing cost was $8 per item.

 

[four.cycle]

Is this a rhetorical question?

My iPhone 5S was assembled in China and has worked flawlessly for last four years so I doubt Chinese workers are inferior.

Let's assume for the purposes of this discussion that Chinese workers are every bit as capable of producing a quality product than any other workers on the planet.

One of the many problems he had was trying to get the factories to make the items to spec. They love to cheat on grades of materials and quality control.

^ This statement pretty much sums up what you will hear in comments from people who have actually been involved in business transactions/manufacturing/trade with Chinese factories.
They will, left to their own devices, figure out any and every way to compromise quality to increase their profit margin, even if only by infinitesimal percentages.

Moreover, some of those compromises result in goods that are not only inferior, but dangerous: CFL light bulbs that burst into flames, blade-type automotive fuses (rated at 10 amps) that don't blow until they're loaded with 70+ amps, ad infinitum.
The bottom line being that overall, they cannot be trusted to produce a safe and reliable quality product.

But, we all have the ability to make our own choices about what sort of products we choose to purchase.

YMMV.

 

[bcexplorer]

This seems almost like a liberal fiending to call someone a racist bigot...

Tools made in usa, canada, germany, etc, are made by people who make a fair wage, and have some degree of pride in their career and what they are producing.

Chinese tools are made because some corporation contracted them too as cheaply as possible. No reflection on the workers themselves, but the main profiteer is some Mr Burns somewhere in an office.

There are great tools for a great price out there, but as a professional myself in a manufacturing environment who takes pride in the work he does, i like to support families and workers on my own continent who feel the same.

 

[Loscaldazar]

They are certainly capable. Look up the vases or jade jewelry Chinese workers produce. It's world class art. Absolutely beautiful and incredibly time consuming to make with absolute attention and focus required to make them.

The problem with Chinese made goods is two main things though.

The first is that people go there to have thing made cheap. If you want to undercut your rivals and sell the cheapest widget possible you go to China. And I'm talking about items that are made with no concern for quality, like those 60 piece Harbor Freight socket sets for $4, they are produced simply to be the cheapest set and nothing else. I'm not talking about items that someone wants manufactured cheaply, but still to a certain standard- that falls under the second point...

The second issue is, as others have mentioned, Chinese Factories/managers have a horrible reputation for substituting cheaper grade materials and cutting corners when and where they can to line their own pockets. That means occasionally (or even not so infrequently....) products that should hold up to a certain standard of quality simply do not.

That covers pretty much why China has a horrible reputation for manufacturing.

 

[MN_Runner]

I have a friend who was a buyer of outdoor items and dealt with the Chinese factories directly and and would wholesale to retailers. One of the many problems he had was trying to get the factories to make the items to spec. They love to cheat on grades of materials and quality control.

Excellent point! This cheating is not limited to Chinese made stuff but also anywhere (USA, Japan, Korea and Germany and so forth). Just look at the Takata airbags, GM ignition switch, Hyundai's inflated MPG, VW diesel emission cheating. But to say Chinese are the only one cheating would be saying everyone is clean except them.

 

[Know Wosad]

Made in China /can/ be inferior, and often is, due to the genetic makeup of the majority of the board(s) of directors of the companies who own the world, Inc.
The Chinese, and everyone else, are fully capable of producing whatever you ask for and are willing to pay for.
Quit blaming nations, peoples and cultures and review the companies who's name tags are on the items that are around you.Look at the names of the controllers. It reveals a lot. Digg ?
Back to the Milwaukee infatuation thread. Understand ?
https://www.google.com/finance?cid=3948452&ei=G4tMWOGPGoG3e72kg7gL

 

[CJM8515]

I think it depends on what you ask for, if you keep up on checking the process and if they try and cheat you. Its all about the money, they will cheap out on your if you dont stay on top of them and they cut corners as it would help them in the long run.

Then again thats any sort of produced goods and some services too. IE thats why something like a snap on vs gear wrench ratchet. Different specs, tooling, manufacturing. But they still produce the same rough product, BUT snap ons is held to a much higher standard. Same goes for anything really, most of the stuff from china or else where is produced well enough that it isnt absolute trash, cause if it was once people found out they wouldnt buy it.

 

[Davefr]

The answer is "inferior" US consumers who demand low cost above all else.

That spawns the motivation to outsource in pursuit of the absolute lowest cost. China is happy to cut as many corners as they can to meet that objective.

China is happy to provide whatever level of quality is demanded and funded. It's not that common to outsource but then increase the quality level and then accept a higher cost.

 

[B_Bimmer]

Fraud, corruption, and apathy.

 

[Know Wosad]

Snap-On produces a stunningly fantastic product, in general. OTOH the " board" as I refer to above, are expert marketers buying products made by other companies( I refer to) and doubling or tripling the price by putting their name on the items and #1, above all else, arranging this overpriced stuff to have easy access to people who can only pay by the week.
This is the great tool truck conspiracy and an actual FACT.
Who loses ? The $20/hr sap mechanic AND the poor guy enticed into being the supplier with the tool truck and "his own business".zzzzzzzz

 

[WWheeler]

Why 'Made in China’ is a mark of shame
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/6962703/Why-Made-in-China-is-a-mark-of-shame.html

tldr: It's due to a government that rewards companies for bringing in foreign currency combined with little to no regulation and a seriously underdeveloped legal system that has led to a business culture that sees quality as a barrier to profitability and no downside to nibbling away at product specs.

 

[ajchien]

I have a friend that manufactures some "boutique" dolls/models in china. He says they do everything exactly as you tell them to. But if you dont specify exactly what you want, they either don't know what to do, or you the cheapest substitute you can think of.

He recalls making an order for t shirts. He needed to specify the sizes, color, style, material, logos. Except the company didnt make the shirts for months, the hold up was that he needed to them what font to use on the size tag for the shirts.

 

[Brownsfan]

I deal with a China manufacturer for the company I work for. We sent specific specs for the unit. It needed to be completely podded to be used in a environment where it will be exposed to all kinds of weather. Well of course they tried to reduce the amount of material and we had over 100 failures in the field. We were lucky we found it quickly because it could have been a disaster. I have to now qc every shipment that comes in. They have to weigh a certain amount of they are podded correctly. Point is they will cut corners if you don't stay on top of them.

 

[Tom.C]

Boeing's newest Airbus has its wings made in China, and I'm pretty sure some other major parts as well. I worked for a company where I was directly involved in the manufacturing process, the chinese will use the cheapest materials they can if you're not on them, they are not to be trusted.

 

[Tellingthem]

I deal with a China manufacturer for the company I work for. We sent specific specs for the unit. It needed to be completely podded to be used in a environment where it will be exposed to all kinds of weather. Well of course they tried to reduce the amount of material and we had over 100 failures in the field. We were lucky we found it quickly because it could have been a disaster. I have to now qc every shipment that comes in. They have to weigh a certain amount of they are podded correctly. Point is they will cut corners if you don't stay on top of them.

Yep. I have to do the same for a specific product at work. On one batch we had a 14% bad/failure rate directly from the factory. I caught most of them before they were shipped but holy hell the hours I spent looking over them. And the kicker is we paid for "extra" quality control. I guess they switched factories and that one wasn't up to snuff. We've had that problem before with this supplier. Substituting substandard materials and manufacturing processes hence the extra quality control cost. Money well spent obviously.

But on the flip side we get another similar product also manufactured in China and haven't had a single bad one yet. Maybe they want to impress us for our business but I'm not complaining about zero problems. Just got the new batch in so we'll see if it keep up.

 

[2oolhound]

I watched a documentary made by a young chinese girl about their annual migration of factory workers back to their rural homes in the deep country sides for their only 5 day long holiday. There was lots of pushing and shoving just to get on one of the trains. Everyone didn't make it on. Once on the crowded train she filmed a group of 12 or so occupying a double seat arrangement where 6 might sit over here. One guy who was working in a garment factory was saying "americans are big people, huge" He went on to tell of this large pair of pants he sewed. "It was so big me and wu both got into one leg! Yes, two of us can fit in just one leg" Then he explained "In america you don't have to work. Americans just have a piece of plastic they show and they can get anything they want. They don't need money to buy it." You could feel the distain they held for westerners. No one disputed what he had to say and little did they know their government was exploiting our addiction to credit to the point they were making trillions in interest payments from us and coming back over here and buying up all the tangible resources.

I've heard when we go there with contracts and they build a factory for it they also build a replica factory where they manufacture the same products for black market sales in other parts of the world and locally. I recently bought some MAC tools thinking they would be taiwan made, similar to gearwrench quality but still a step up from princess auto (HF). Nope, made in china too. One set of pliers had a defect so I compared 4 or 5 from the bin and saw they were all different as to the bend on the tips and length past the bend of the needle nose. Also the other joints had free play. I kept the ones I had with the handle defect.

 

[bwringer]

Boeing's newest Airbus has its wings made in China, and I'm pretty sure some other major parts as well. I worked for a company where I was directly involved in the manufacturing process, the chinese will use the cheapest materials they can if you're not on them, they are not to be trusted.

"Boeing's newest Airbus"...?

 

[katiexoxo]

I wonder what the quality of US tools would be if americans were paid like the chinese, like $4/hour or whatever... Iphones are good because Apple pays the workers a little more and offer a bit better working conditions than what other factories do

Frankly I`m amazed that someone would produce anything of the chinese quality that so many complain about for that little $. I certainly wouldn't.

And drop the "I'd pay more for a quality product" ********. No, you wouldn't. If you did, companies would not move their manufacturing in China.

 

[PelicanPines]

I wonder what the quality of US tools would be if americans were paid like the chinese, like $4/hour or whatever...

An iPhone manufactured on US soil would cost $2,000.00 and there would be few deals by providers.

Same reason Craftsman can never return manufacturing to the U.S.... every body with China lobster wrenches would want them warranted as inferior.

 

[d.mcfarland]

I don't think the OP truly understands why items are made in China.

 

[WWheeler]

I wonder what the quality of US tools would be if americans were paid like the chinese, like $4/hour or whatever...[...]

It'd be a bit less than that ..

... and yeah, for that wage it's a sure bet productivity and quality would take a serious hit.

 

[MN_Runner]

I don't think the OP truly understands why items are made in China.

You got me so please educate me on your theory and theories (I am not being sarcastic and you seem like a nice fellow from PA). I believe the point of my original post is that the Chinese workers are equally capable of producing superior goods just like US workers. However, manufacturers, providers and consumers often invite lowest wages, work conditions, quality because everyone wants to maximize return for their money.

 

[d.mcfarland]

You got me so please educate me on your theory and theories (I am not being sarcastic and you seem like a nice fellow from PA). I believe the point of my original post is that the Chinese workers are equally capable of producing superior goods just like US workers. However, manufacturers, providers and consumers often invite lowest wages, work conditions, quality because everyone wants to maximize return for their money.

The Chinese working population have nothing. They come from the sticks to the city to work and send money home. The people are uneducated yes, but they are cheap because they need any job in order to survive. On top of that a government that allows whatever helps them bring jobs to china then companies can do it environmentally. Then there is currency manipulation. It all adds up.

I can't even being to explain why china makes quality stuff on one end of the spectrum and absolute **** on the other end.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MN_Runner]

It'd be a bit less than that ..

... and yeah, for that wage it's a sure bet productivity and quality would take a serious hit.

I am moving to Germany! Germany is one of my favorite countries to visit. People are super friendly, they speak English and serve the best beer and pork knee in the whole world.

 

[MN_Runner]

The Chinese working population have nothing. They come from the sticks to the city to work and send money home. The people are uneducated yes, but they are cheap because they need any job in order to survive. On top of that a government that allows whatever helps them bring jobs to china then companies can do it environmentally. Then there is currency manipulation. It all adds up.
I can't even being to explain why china makes quality stuff on one end of the spectrum and absolute **** on the other end.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you! I bought a Chinese made violin for my daughter because an European made violin was over $10,000 but a comparable Chinese one was less than $2500. The quality of Chinese violin is just incredible and maybe even better than the European made in terms of sound, depth, tone, quality, fit and finish. In this case paying more does not get you more.

 

[katiexoxo]

Not that relevant, because China is well known for exceptional quality violins
And flashlights :|

 

[Coach James]

According to the Economist, the average factory worker in China earns $27.50 a day.

http://www.economist.com/news/brief...then-asias-hold-manufacturing-tightening-grip


Coach

 

[jchetty]

Thank you! I bought a Chinese made violin for my daughter because an European made violin was over $10,000 but a comparable Chinese one was less than $2500. The quality of Chinese violin is just incredible and maybe even better than the European made in terms of sound, depth, tone, quality, fit and finish. In this case paying more does not get you more.

This is a false narrative. Your belief that it better in terms of sound, depth, tone, quality, fit, and finish is unscientific and demonstates your bias.

This is the reason why China products are so popular. People want to believe that they are getting a BMW at a Corolla price. In some cases it is true- but in most cases it is not.

If a China supplier could sell something for a higher profit- why wouldn't they. The have to sell 4 of your violins to equal the sale of 1 European.

People want to believe they are getting a bargain. The truth is somewhere there is cost cutting. Labor force, machining equipment, raw materials- they are slashing the cost somewhere. Sometimes it doesn't affect the final product but many times it does.

The question is are you (the consumer) ok with the quality received to purchase price ratio? If U.S. companies could get away with lower labor costs, less environmental regulations, and lower cost of litigation- you better believe it would all be made in the USA.

We value our environment and our labor force....sometimes too much. The Race to the Bottom is what is happening. The question is once China's middle class rises up- where will the Race To The Bottom take us. Some say India but I believe sub Sahara Africa would happen if the AIDS epidemic can be solved.

 

[6PTsocket]

There was an article in Fine Wiodworking where they interviewed the heads of the companies making the the best stationary power tools in Taiwan. They said the same things others have said here. They said it was essential to have an American inspector overseeing the operation or the factory owners would push through the rejects. You can get quality if you watch and if you even care. Some importers want cheap and the Chinese are willing to supply it. My wife worked for what used to be a well known men's clothing company. The landed price of a $40 jacket, made in China, was two bucks. Jobs are really hard to come by in China and there is no union. The workers will produce what management wants. It is stupid to suggest any people are any smarter than others but some places have a bad work culture. It comes from the top down. I have worked in places where it was good and bad Some problems have wide spred effects. I talked to a tool importer about his tap and die sets. He said Chinese steel is low quality so his tap and die supplier could not produce great taps and dies, no matter how carefully made.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[DC73]

Why 'Made in China’ is a mark of shame
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/6962703/Why-Made-in-China-is-a-mark-of-shame.html

tldr: It's due to a government that rewards companies for bringing in foreign currency combined with little to no regulation and a seriously underdeveloped legal system that has led to a business culture that sees quality as a barrier to profitability and no downside to nibbling away at product specs.

This ^^^. Best answer given so far.

A U.S. company can get quality products made in China, but you have to stay very involved in the entire process. Don't blink.

DC

 

[MN_Runner]

This is a false narrative. Your belief that it better in terms of sound, depth, tone, quality, fit, and finish is unscientific and demonstates your bias.

This is the reason why China products are so popular. People want to believe that they are getting a BMW at a Corolla price. In some cases it is true- but in most cases it is not.

If a China supplier could sell something for a higher profit- why wouldn't they. The have to sell 4 of your violins to equal the sale of 1 European.

People want to believe they are getting a bargain. The truth is somewhere there is cost cutting. Labor force, machining equipment, raw materials- they are slashing the cost somewhere. Sometimes it doesn't affect the final product but many times it does.

The question is are you (the consumer) ok with the quality received to purchase price ratio? If U.S. companies could get away with lower labor costs, less environmental regulations, and lower cost of litigation- you better believe it would all be made in the USA.

We value our environment and our labor force....sometimes too much. The Race to the Bottom is what is happening. The question is once China's middle class rises up- where will the Race To The Bottom take us. Some say India but I believe sub Sahara Africa would happen if the AIDS epidemic can be solved.

I see and agree with your points and they are very valid. I am assuming that you do not buy "Made in China, India or Whoever is the Cheapest" given the gravity of these actions by consumers like myself.

 

[jchetty]

There was an article in Fine Wiodworking where they interviewed the heads of the companies making the the best stationary power tools in Taiwan. They said the same things others have said here. They said it was essential to have an American inspector overseeing the operation or the factory owners would push through the rejects. You can get quality if you watch and if you even care. Some importers want cheap and the Chinese are willing to supply it. My wife worked for what used to be a well known men's clothing company. The landed price of a $40 jacket, made in China, was two bucks. Jobs are really hard to come by in China and there is no union. The workers will produce what management wants. It is stupid to suggest any people are any smarter than others but some places have a bad work culture. It comes from the top down. I have worked in places where it was good and bad Some problems have wide spred effects. I talked to a tool importer about his tap and die sets. He said Chinese steel is low quality so his tap and die supplier could not produce great taps and dies, no matter how carefully made.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

See........you get it. You really do. It is not a question of ethnicity or culture. .......Wells Fargo- doesn't that sum up that without good leadership or oversight that even the mighty US worker can be (as the op says) an inferior worker/reduced specifications. People will get away with what they can.

Honor and pride among workers are going extinct due to the multinational corporations which are the biggest crooks.

 

[MN_Runner]

See........you get it. You really do. It is not a question of ethnicity or culture. .......Wells Fargo- doesn't that sum up that without good leadership or oversight that even the mighty US worker can be (as the op says) an inferior worker/reduced specifications. People will get away with what they can.

Honor and pride among workers are going extinct due to the multinational corporations which are the biggest crooks.

I agree with you 100%!

 

[Packard V8]

I've visited factories in China making major European brand name products where the quality was as good as in Germany. The German owner/partners were on-site and doing QC.

At a factory making consumer grade machines sent to the US and with labels you'd recognize, I asked why the quality wasn't better. Answer, "Your US buyers never ask, 'How good can you make it?' They only ask how cheap can you make it?"

I read a recent study where those shopping at Walmart were those most likely to have been those whose employment opportunities were affected negatively by the offshore products they were buying there.

jack vines

 

[Ign]

OP, just buy it and read it:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0470928077/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Trying to explain it here among Americans using our values, cultural beliefs and notions about business & profit does not even begin to touch the scope of the differences (I'm saying differences rather than PROBLEM because a problem is a matter of perspective).

It's literally a different world and a whole different way of thinking.

 

[JonnyMac]

The chinese culture also have a different understanding of the word "quality".
For example, some years ago a bosch lambda sensor was spec'd for a car. This vehicle eventually began being manufactured in china for the domestic market. Some modifications to the Powertrain were being made and the question of the very expensive lambda sensor came up. The manufacturer was actually a joint venture as all car manufacturering in china is. Anyway a supplier was found to supply a copy of the sensor, they manage to copy the connector body appearance, thread size and basically all visual external features. There was no real understanding of what purpose the sensor has but it was considered a high quality item because the appearance was identical. The upper chinese management genuinely thought that because the appearance was the dominant requirement for quality to be achieved so they took the sensor.. needless to say it was a complete disaster and was replaced as soon as the floods of drivability complaints came in.
The point is that the chinese have a few cultural or social based issues relating to whats involved in producing quality items..

 

[Olafur]

To drive down costs industries move where the labor is cheap - they have to make the junk somewhere! But where industry is happening - knowledge, experience, skills start to grow. Later living standards rise. Eventually wages rise and then it's time to move to another area to find cheap labor. The enormous diverse population of China will probably enable the cheapest of production to stay in China for decades. So expect more Chinese junk. But this is just part of the picture.

Another part is happening in the major cities in China where cost of living is already high, and people get good education (take a look at recent Pisa results http://www.oecd.org/pisa/) the story (is?) will be different. They have no choice but to get competitive in science, R&D, high-cost production and so forth. And If they are not there already they will be in relatively few years.