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Working In vs On Your Shop

Tscott

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Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Messages
1,484
Location
Keystone Heights, FL.
I've been making great strides in the organization and ergonomics of my shop but I am struggling to balance working in my shop vs on my shop. I've got a list of shop improvements that I'd like to perform that could keep me busy for months but I've also got about 5 large projects I need to work on as well. At this point I seem to enjoy outfitting and organizing my shop more than actually working on projects in my shop. What sense is a shop that allows me the ability to fix or build almost anything if I don't use it for that purpose? I've actually got so many good ideas for my shop that I literally get anxious at the thought of not being able to get it all done. Simultaneously, I get the same overwhelming feeling when contemplating the projects I need to get done.

How do you all weigh the desire to improve your shop against the need to get things done?

Tom
 
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matt_i

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Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
10,726
Location
SE Michigan
I'm in the 2nd plus year of building the shop. Its getting closer. But obviously many projects have come up since I broke ground. Basically all about priorities trying to knock off the most urgent ones while focusing on building. Once the building is finished and the equipment moved in, then it will hopefully be 95% projects.

But, like you, I really really enjoyed building it and its unlikely I would build another right here for many moons. So, I'm planning to help my brother build his instead :)
 

bdbecker

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Nov 18, 2015
Messages
5,557
Location
Iowa
Best advice I could offer is to just be in the moment and enjoy whatever you are working on. Don't let it make you anxious, otherwise you will start to resent it.
 

ssdave

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Apr 11, 2015
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Location
Eastern Oregon
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and make a very general characterization:

90% of the nice, organized, clean and well put together shops out there are almost never used, or at least used to a very small part of their potential. The shop itself is the objective, not the work done in it. Some great examples of that are seen here nearly daily, with $10,000 snap on tool boxes, loaded with tens of thousands of perfectly arranged, perfectly polished snap on tools. Not a scratch or speck of grease on any of it. Or, threads like the guy that is irritated his son put small dings in the top of his wood workbench. The tool collection or the workbench is the objective, not the work that can be done with them or on them. They're not an expendable item to be used up in doing work, they are the object of the activity in and of themselves.

This becomes a trap, particularly as we get older. As we get older and can afford nicer things, it occurs to us that it sure would be nice to invest some money in a nice shop, so we can comfortably and easily do the things we used to have to do without good facilities. Sometimes it becomes a retirement goal: Build a nice shop to work in when I retire.

The problem is that as we're reaching that age, we are also naturally losing initiative and capability. Often the decline coincides pretty well with the completion of the shop. We start out working on the shop with a lot of enthusiasm, and it gets 60, 70, 75, 80% done. The work to finish it gets slower; the process gets dragged out, and we get less and less motivated to work at a high rate. So, about the time the shop gets nicely completed, there's not a lot of motivation to do work in it.

I've seen this with a lot of retired guys and woodworking. They decide to take up woodworking when they retire. They buy a table saw, and use it to build some workbenches and cabinets and such. They buy a few other tools as they go along, as they find the need and can afford to. After the cabinets get done, they get a few books or subscribe to magazines or surf the net, and find all sorts of neat jigs and aids for woodworking to make things better and easier. They use their tools to make those jigs and aids. They are meanwhile getting older and slowing down, and doing less and less. Many of them never get beyond the cabinets and workbenches and jigs stage and actually do any work.

Most of the guys that are doing a lot of shop work are working with what they have, rarely doing large improvement projects, and rarely have nice, perfectly suited cabinets, racks, etc. They have focused on the work to be done, not the space to do it in.

Neither way is right or wrong, we all do something to occupy our spare time with things that interest us. Building a nice shop is just as valid an activity as building wooden handmade toys or fabbing steel trailers or working on old cars.

And, like any generalization, there's many exceptions. There are guys that have amazing shops that do a lot of work in them. But, from my observations, they're the exception, not the rule.
 

sberry

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Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
I been at this a long time. When I started I had to do the best and over built everything. Today I an more secure with adequate and sufficient. I have worked on dozens of benches and shop layouts in my career. My own is a cobble job and not flat. No one knows it but me. No one considers it but me. I have figured out more where the rubber hits the road so to speak. I work on good fundamentals these days vs fussy details.
I had an idea of a perfect water supply for something when I started this morning and may modify it when its practical, I am not scared to dig a ditch and buy some pipe but in the interest of speed figured out how to route 2 hoses out of the way and test as well as utilize it now.
I overwelded the **** out of everything early on, now and very fast and thrifty and often sacrifice a bit of beauty for ease and speed. Am back with 6011, where I started. Every bead doesn't have to be a big ole shiny 7018 or tig, no one looks over my shoulder anymore and it all looks great when I do customer work.
 

sberry

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Jun 18, 2005
Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
I had an idea to do prototype for the cart, was going to buy a real service cart, as it is this worked so well its been adopted and not likely to be replaced, cost nothing and had less than hour investment.
It took a while to finish painting the Aframe, eventually instead of a fussy spray job had my helper whiz it with a sponge brush. You would really have to look close to notice the difference, no one does.
Had a couple masters thru, one my good bud just died but was a retired indy flat rate guy with lotso experience, said,,, this is the easiest place I ever worked in. Not much of it due to expensive finish, but more to do with smoothing the edges off.
You can see some evolution with the cart, when it isn't a high dollar investment it makes it easier to modify and try out new schemes. I only have one slight thing to do yet, I cant really make it much better at the rate I use it.
 

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crewchief888

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Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Messages
13,742
Location
NW indiana
working IN the garage boils down to fixing, repairing, or modifying what i already have.

working ON the garage usually means i "found" something else, as time and money presents itself. with the exception of tools and toolboxes, everything in my garage, electrical, and storage, was salvaged or re-purposed, i havent spent more than $50 in the past 10 years on "stuff" for the garage, and that was mostly for lightbulbs and a couple outlets.

i just finished repairing and installing a winch on my s-10 blazer, it's been "in the works" for a little over a year.

other projects around the house usually keep me occupied, working ON the garage is far, far down on the list.


:beer:
 

motofool33

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Joined
Feb 2, 2013
Messages
1,634
Location
Currently North of Houston
I have been building up my shop as i go picking up alot of tools that need refurb work and maintence and it has slowed down my car projects alot getting the shop tools all working correctly and finding out i dont like the layout of the shop and moving stuff around. and im far behind on my "fun" projects. i feel your pain but just knuckle down and get it done.
 

larry_g

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Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
16,877
Location
oregon
Two words you used in your post, need and want. Needs are things that must get done of bad things happen. Wants are just that, things to make life more pleasant.

We need food, we may want a steak but hamburger will sustain us and the need is filled.

I suggest that you look at your list and get the needs done, then prioritize the wants..

Needs are fixing the hole in the roof, wants are getting the new neon sign hung on the wall.

Needs are fixing the brakes on the daily driver, wants are waxing the hotrod again.

lg
no neat sig line
 

RWorth

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Joined
Aug 29, 2016
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592
Location
Cape Cod , Mass.

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OccupantRJ

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May 15, 2009
Messages
11,041
Location
Eastern North Carolina
I have had a workshop of some type since I was 11 yrs old. The shop and all the projects accomplished are all one and the same to me. Sometimes I work on the shop, sometimes I work on the project. I control the activity, I do not let the activity control me. As long as what I am doing is interesting at the moment, I'm happy!
 

crewchief888

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Dec 3, 2009
Messages
13,742
Location
NW indiana
Sometimes I work on the shop, sometimes I work on the project. I control the activity, I do not let the activity control me. As long as what I am doing is interesting at the moment, I'm happy!

seems like a lot of what happens in the garage has to do with the old phrase,"happy wife, happy life"

if she aint happy outside the garage, nobody's gonna be happy inside the garage.

ive been garageless a lot of times i my life. :eyecrazy: at least i have one that has 4 walls, a door and a roof.


:beer:
 

PoorOwner

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Joined
Feb 10, 2007
Messages
5,032
Location
CA
I think it can get a bit overwhelming sometimes, maybe for some putting up cabinets is fun, but at least it is instant gratification.

Who wants to spend the weekend fishing wires through insulation, cutting and putting batts of insulation, or wire up 10-20 outlets.

The woodworking example could be true, setting up a woodshop seems there is no limit, there is too much machines and jigs and clamps to outfit yourself these days. I do want the ability to try a little or have ability to do certain things like gluing but nothing like fancy joinery.. to me pocket jig is where it ends! Recently I setup a woodworking vise. Have yet to use it to chisel something out, but have the ability to. Definitely a want, not a need. It's very handy to hold the oil jugs to drain out the oil though.
 
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rburke65

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Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Messages
12,349
Location
Canfield, Ohio
I paid to have my shop built when I retired, but then it took me two years, doing the inside, wiring, grafting, etc.....long time. Now I'm lucky enough just to do projects.
 

Ben7203

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Joined
Jan 20, 2012
Messages
523
Location
Colbert, GA
Like Larry stated, create a list and prioritize. If you find you're tired of working on a "need" switch to an easy "want" project. When you start dreading a project, it can become a huge burden and then it's easy to quit.

If you know Excel, you can create a master list that includes sub-list. If a project is big enough, start a new page just for it. Keep track of cost, parts etc.
 

c/o say

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Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
322
Location
Indiana
I have always wanted to fix up some kind of older car or truck so I thought well I have to have a nice shop and tools to do it with. Now that I have that guess what I have no funds to get said car or truck do to always buying tools and building my shop. In the mean time my buddies who don't have a shop or tools have cool cars. O well maybe someday. In the meantime at least I can use my shop to earn cash doing sidejobs while they are out having fun. lol
 

rarevair

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Joined
Feb 28, 2010
Messages
62
Location
Valley Center, KS
Retired in '09 and spend a lot of my time working in my shops. 99% of what I do is work on Corvairs. Have enough projects to last until I am 140 years old . . . maybe longer because I get slower as I get older. For a long time I wrestled with trying to balance work in the shop with work on the shop. Finally I decided, I am doing this for enjoyment, I have a decent place to work and several nice cars to drive. There are no deadlines, just do what I enjoy. Decided my style is "Old Shoe Shop" . . . not a former footwear repair spot, but something that is a bit worn, but very comfortable, more function than polish.

A couple of months ago I was getting burnt out working on the Corvair projects. Luckily my Retirement/Retirement home and shop came up for sale and I could not pass it up. The small two bedroom house required a few minor things, so that part was simple. The stick built garage is 24' x 41' x 12' and was built in 1960. The good thing is that it has natural gas heat and a bathroom. Have been enjoying fixing up the new garage since closing. Even got one stalled Corvair project going (a Devin C) and a couple other projects finished while working on the new to me garage.
 

cheechi

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Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,384
Location
Triad, NC
which of the shop improvement tasks will make working on the projects better, faster, etc?

which of the projects are in the way or otherwise affect your ability to improve the shop?

The answer to both of those determines the order how I do things in my shop. In the end, most of the things I do will still be 'to' my shop but those are just the plans I have. A lot of projects come to me unplanned and uninvited. Or things break.
 

Thumper68

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Joined
May 16, 2013
Messages
5,134
Location
Duluth MN
I really don't care if I am working in or on, all shop time is good. Lately I have been doing more on projects to make doing both in and on easier.

It also helps that quite some time ago I realized that in or on or time Spent acquiring new equipment and tools is all part of my hobby.

I spent all of my shop time today fixing up a piece of equipment I picked up a few weeks back, it had a couple of broken cast pieces that I brazzed, I cleaned up the rust and grime and tomorrow I will finish up the cast pieces and finish making a handle and put it all back together so I can use it for the next project.

I don't feel at all that it was time wasted, I enjoyd the process.
 

jimreed2160

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Joined
Aug 7, 2016
Messages
3,589
Location
Tallahassee FL
I try to balance between fixing things up and working on actual projects. Fixing things and organizing usually pays benefits and that is a good reward. Since my shop is a fun place, I usually do not decide what to do until I get there in the morning and open up. I do what appeals to me until I get tired or hungry. Then I wash up, eat, and take a nap. Works for me.
 
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rossddvm

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Feb 16, 2017
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120
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NW Iowa
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and make a very general characterization:

90% of the nice, organized, clean and well put together shops out there are almost never used, or at least used to a very small part of their potential. The shop itself is the objective, not the work done in it. Some great examples of that are seen here nearly daily, with $10,000 snap on tool boxes, loaded with tens of thousands of perfectly arranged, perfectly polished snap on tools. Not a scratch or speck of grease on any of it. Or, threads like the guy that is irritated his son put small dings in the top of his wood workbench. The tool collection or the workbench is the objective, not the work that can be done with them or on them. They're not an expendable item to be used up in doing work, they are the object of the activity in and of themselves.

This becomes a trap, particularly as we get older. As we get older and can afford nicer things, it occurs to us that it sure would be nice to invest some money in a nice shop, so we can comfortably and easily do the things we used to have to do without good facilities. Sometimes it becomes a retirement goal: Build a nice shop to work in when I retire.

The problem is that as we're reaching that age, we are also naturally losing initiative and capability. Often the decline coincides pretty well with the completion of the shop. We start out working on the shop with a lot of enthusiasm, and it gets 60, 70, 75, 80% done. The work to finish it gets slower; the process gets dragged out, and we get less and less motivated to work at a high rate. So, about the time the shop gets nicely completed, there's not a lot of motivation to do work in it.

I've seen this with a lot of retired guys and woodworking. They decide to take up woodworking when they retire. They buy a table saw, and use it to build some workbenches and cabinets and such. They buy a few other tools as they go along, as they find the need and can afford to. After the cabinets get done, they get a few books or subscribe to magazines or surf the net, and find all sorts of neat jigs and aids for woodworking to make things better and easier. They use their tools to make those jigs and aids. They are meanwhile getting older and slowing down, and doing less and less. Many of them never get beyond the cabinets and workbenches and jigs stage and actually do any work.

Most of the guys that are doing a lot of shop work are working with what they have, rarely doing large improvement projects, and rarely have nice, perfectly suited cabinets, racks, etc. They have focused on the work to be done, not the space to do it in.

Neither way is right or wrong, we all do something to occupy our spare time with things that interest us. Building a nice shop is just as valid an activity as building wooden handmade toys or fabbing steel trailers or working on old cars.

And, like any generalization, there's many exceptions. There are guys that have amazing shops that do a lot of work in them. But, from my observations, they're the exception, not the rule.

I am kind of worried this could be my crystal ball. I worked for years in my career and always was poorly set up and under funded for tools and work areas. had the dream of having a nice shop someday, and proper tools to get things done. This year I put up a shop for my carpentry/woodworking projects and also to work on motorcycles. The building is up and I expect it will take a couple years for the interior to be set up and organized while still working full time. Sometime after that I hope to retire or at least slow down. I hope there are some good years left at that point to really utilize the space I have wanted all my adult life.
 

ducksface

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Oct 25, 2012
Messages
2,477
My shop is not dependant on my ability to execute projects.
My ability to execute projects is dependant on my shop.
 

Ign

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Jul 7, 2006
Messages
12,769
Location
Butte Peak ND
I've done a lot of layout/organization stuff the past couple years and it's sweet. It really can make projects go faster and smoother. But then I make a living in my shop so organization is only optional to a point.

That said I've still got several ideas of other things I want to do TO the shop. I know at some point the paying work will slow for a short while and I'll be able to grab a day or two and get something else finished.
 

don long

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Mar 31, 2012
Messages
8,845
Location
southern california
I try to balance between fixing things up and working on actual projects. Fixing things and organizing usually pays benefits and that is a good reward. Since my shop is a fun place, I usually do not decide what to do until I get there in the morning and open up. I do what appeals to me until I get tired or hungry. Then I wash up, eat, and take a nap. Works for me.

Jim I agree with you. I spend most of my time out in my shop. I never get one project finished before starting one or two more. I enjoy each project as I'm working on it but don't stay focused on it very long. When I get an idea to improve my shop, it's because the project i'm working on demands it, so I stop on that project and work on the shop. When I step into my shop in the morning I find myself working on what ever interests me at the moment. There are days that I stay on one project all day and other days I touch many smaller ones.
 

sberry

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Messages
35,747
Location
Brethren, Michigan
When I get an idea to improve my shop, it's because the project i'm working on demands it, so I stop on that project and work on the shop.
Yes, I do this too, sometimes its planned well ahead, sometimes its as needed.
 

slodat

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Feb 6, 2010
Messages
3,682
Location
Central-ish, WA
I bought an old turd of a building 2 years ago this week to move my upholstery business into. I've spent the past two years mostly working on the shop with customer work here and there. I am closing in on the shop being the big project by the end of the month. I enjoy working on the shop because it makes working on projects so much more enjoyable and even possible in most cases. I do think about this topic often..
 

sanddan

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Joined
Jul 7, 2005
Messages
708
Location
Oregon
I've been working on and in my shop for 23 years. I still have improvement projects on the list as what I work on and the tools I use has changed through the years so the shop has had to change also.

Getting into machining about 5 years ago started me on a long and winding road that shows no end in sight. I have to admit that I do more work on the tools and fixtures/aids than actual projects but it is all part of the learning process so all good.

Working in the shop, whether it's on a project or shop improvement, is the important thing.
 

turbowoodworker

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Joined
Mar 18, 2012
Messages
3,531
Location
Apex NC
I have to agree with Don and Jim with one exception as it pertains to my personality.
I won't allow myself to start another project until I finish the one and only job I'm working on at the time. I also force myself to cleanup and reorganize in between projects. Glue bottles, scrap wood, clamps, finish cans, nail guns...
If I don't enforce these two self imposed rules, my shop gets crazy and all my attempts at organization falls apart. It is bad enough that like others, I've got ww, reloading, home projects etc. I have to force myself.
 

sberry

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Jun 18, 2005
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Brethren, Michigan
I am not scared to pick up or sweep in the middle either. I have made it so simple to put away its actually easier to do it and get again vs leaving it all in a pile. Its hard to teach some of this, when a guy gets the wrong wrench put it back when he goes to get the right one vs just dropping it. I do some of this as I go, leave the tools I need for reassembly on the service cart and put back the ones I don't.
 

John in OH

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Jun 2, 2007
Messages
2,444
Location
SE Ohio & Eastern Virginia
I've been making great strides in the organization and ergonomics of my shop but I am struggling to balance working in my shop vs on my shop. I've got a list of shop improvements that I'd like to perform that could keep me busy for months but I've also got about 5 large projects I need to work on as well. At this point I seem to enjoy outfitting and organizing my shop more than actually working on projects in my shop. What sense is a shop that allows me the ability to fix or build almost anything if I don't use it for that purpose? I've actually got so many good ideas for my shop that I literally get anxious at the thought of not being able to get it all done. Simultaneously, I get the same overwhelming feeling when contemplating the projects I need to get done.

How do you all weigh the desire to improve your shop against the need to get things done?

Tom

Except for the crisis projects that arise (such as the hole in the roof or bad brakes as mentioned above) then work on whatever YOU WANT to work on!

Who cares if you spend all your time working ON the shop rather than working IN your shop??? It's your time, and it's your life, and if you want to spend all your time making the shop better and better and you're enjoying yourself .... then it doesn't matter if no actual projects ever get done! Unless your shop is a "for profit" facility then it should be a place for you to relax, gain satisfaction, and relieve stress.

I seem to enjoy working ON my shop every bit as much (and sometimes maybe more) than working on projects.
 

-Brent-

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Dec 23, 2009
Messages
4,709
Location
Utah
I'm a bad multi-tasker so I may not be a great help.

I got sick and tired of my garage being nothing more than a shell of a building with a lot of **** stored in it. Last June I took it on, full force, and decided to remodel the whole thing and not take on any other projects until it was done. I'm 100% glad I did, even though the two vehicle projects have been taunting me the entire time.

I have about dozen items left on the list, most of which are all small and nothing is major. I'm still focusing on the shop but I'm at the point where the majority is done and I'm nearly ready to get back to the vehicle projects.



Even though I could put off the little items and dive into a car project, I'm not going to do it. I'm going to scratch every item off the list.

I have taken a day here and there and last weekend I did a project for the kids and the shop made life much easier.

Sure, it's taken nearly a year but I will soon have a place that will need very little time from me (in comparison to this last 11 months).

So, I say get after it and document it in a thread of your own.
 

CKS1955

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Oct 12, 2014
Messages
489
Location
Michigan
Love the list. I also make list....but some the list are over 2-3 years old. Oh well.

Jay
 

zcar751

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Apr 15, 2013
Messages
831
Location
Knoxville, TN
Great question about balancing work on the shop verse projects. I know for me it is a back and forth struggle. I started my garage eight years ago with a metal building only to find that it was unusable in the heat of the summer. I have made a number of improvements over the years as I could divert funds and at the same time I have had three different car projects and I'm in the process of a fourth. The key for me is that it is where I go to work on things I like. It isn't a business so I have no deadlines other than goals I might set for myself. If I want to stop in the middle of a project to work on something else then I can and do.
 

MikeF2316

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Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Messages
9,605
Location
Thornhill, ON
I'm going to agree with both ssdave and John in OH.

I used to do all the work on my cars on jack stands crawling under them with a quarter of the tools I have now. I remember back in the day, when a stubby wrench here or a crowfoot there would have save me lots of time. As I got older and was able to afford these tools, I've needed them way less, as now I have a friend with a garage, I have a hoist to use, and even better, his apprentice to do some of the grunt work. (I do electrical/electronic/computer stuff for him in exchange.) I'm sure some of my crowfoots (crowfeet?) will never get used, but I have used a couple of them.

And working on the shop, can be as much of a goal as any project. Either way, I do it more for enjoyment and challenge of doing the work than anything else.
 

cheechi

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Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
4,384
Location
Triad, NC
Today in my shop I moved a pair of speakers so it spreads the sound out better while working. My shop is the basement of my ranch house, minus a section that's finished, and I have a fireplace. So it's like a big square and a J attached to each other, I was too close to one speaker and the other pair was drowned out just by the one. So now it's more of a cross section type of thing, I think it was time well spent except where one of my terminals the screws stripped and I had to solder the wire to the volume control.

So that was work on my shop and I enjoyed doing it, but will enjoy the benefits for years whether I'm working or bullshitting.

I am in the middle of a massive slab I'm gluing together from 2x4 scraps, so it's glue clamp wait glue clamp wait, 2-3 inches at a time in some cases. This was a project I started to learn some new skills but also because I've recently got some more cabinets and they need tops so this will solve that. it's another project 'for the shop' yes but it's mostly 'for me' as a skill builder and a cleanup.

In a way I agree about guys who buy a bunch of tools, make a few jigs, and never do anything with them. For me, I'm kind of in that pattern but not as a retiree, more a hobbyist that 'all this ********' might break even one day as a side gig. It's not a 'one size fits all' type thing in terms of what people are doing while not working towards a finished project, but also in terms of trying to classify whats being done 'to' vs 'in' the shop.
 

Bessy

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Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
994
Location
Ontario, Canada
I find myself doing a little bit of both. When it comes to working "on" the shop, I spend a whole lot of time dreaming up ways to make life more efficient for working on things in the shop, but very few of those ideas ever even make it to paper. Usually if it's a quick project like getting my drills/impacts out of a drawer to free up space, I'll knock something like that out. Now that it's done (took me an hour maybe to finish that project), I'm better off because I can just walk up, grab one and get to whatever I was looking to do.
Once I get my own shop however (working out of a section of Dad's now, as I'm living at home) I totally forsee spending a large amount of time just outfitting and getting a shop set up before i ever take on another project. With time however, I'll end up right where I am now, in a place that is more or less adequate for most projects, to the point that the projects still get done, but i'll never stop with "continuous improvement" as I move forward.
 

brownbagg

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 20, 2006
Messages
5,208
i think the best shop would just be a vacant metal bldg, no benches, no wall hanging, no nothing. just a place out of the weather, the more stuff i get, the more the shop becomes a warehouse
 

ka8apf

New member
Joined
May 7, 2017
Messages
2
Both at this time, I have projects I need to complete, but also I need to work on the
garage storage to give me room to work on those projects!
 
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