Time to upgrade my central ac unit.

[honda1998civic]

I haven't used my central ac in two years and just installed window units. I installed new windows and I'm ready for central ac. What is a decent price for central ac system? I have one quote for 7,000 inside and outside unit. Is it possible to just replaced the outside unit and inside coil or is it recommended to do entire replacement? The quote I have gotten is for 14 seer 4 ton unit trane brand inside and outside unit with a disconnect and thermostat upgrade. I live in south Texas so ac is a must. Heater is a toss up. Can I get some opinions on what are must haves on an ac system? Thanks

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

As long as the line set is sized right and flushed out good,there's no problem with changing just condensing unit and A coil.
As far as pricing,thats,a regional thing.
As far as brand goes I say go with something thats,easy to get parts/service for locally and has a decent warranty.
Don't get too wrapped up in big names/bells and whistles.

 

[honda1998civic]

10-4 thanks. So is it possible I could order inside and outside unit online and just have ac tech install and save some money or is labor what drives the price up on an installation?

I seen goodman 14 seer 4 ton online for 2380 inside and outside unit free shipping.

 

[driftpin]

Why are you even considering a 14 SEER unit? Get something more-efficient. And I don't recommend Goodman. I have a couple friends in the HVAC business and while they will install a Goodman unit for people who insist on them, reason of price usually, it's 'penny-wise, pound-foolish' to choose Goodman. When the Goodman unit has something fail, you still have to pay labor even if the part is free. And, Goodman parts are more-prone to failure. That's two different master license-holders for HVAC speaking, not a weekend warrior.

RHEEM or RUUD are what are the AC contractors recommend for most customers. I've had installed two whole-house AC's in the last few years and chose Bryant for the compressor and Carrier for the air handler (Bryant and Lennox for the other), SEER of 19.5. More-expensive but the difference in the electric bill was dramatic. August prior to the changeout was $285, August post-changeout was $130! That's one house. The other house, we added two additions, so you really can't compare before/after, but the bill was still lower than the 'before' bill in the second home, even with the square footage additions!

I just spoke with the HVAC master license holder who has done my work about getting a mini-split for the garage, 2 car, w/a loft. He's recommending a Mitsubishi, he said Fujitsu is very efficient, but not many people carry them. I'm meeting him next week at the house to get a bid on the garage install. We just did a big re-model including the garage configuration, and the garage is already wired for the 220 v mini-split.

http://www.rheem.com/

https://www.ruud.com/products/hvac/

http://www.bryant.com/bryant/en/us/

http://www.carrier.com/residential/en/us/

http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/us/residential/index.html

http://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/products

 

[Brian_WK]

10-4 thanks. So is it possible I could order inside and outside unit online and just have ac tech install and save some money or is labor what drives the price up on an installation?

I seen goodman 14 seer 4 ton online for 2380 inside and outside unit free shipping.

You can but you might have trouble trying to get a installer to do so. You may or may not have issues with warranty if that ever arises.

We figured 9 hours for a install for 1 guy on an a/c unit if there was only a simple supply air transition to the duct work and no electrician need to be called. We always replaced the linesets especially if switching from R22 to R-410a too much solder out there to risk it. 8 hour install and checkout then a 1 hour follow up within the next week. We also had a 1 year warranty on our labor besides the manufacturer's parts warranty.

Equipment costs will vary depending on SEER and brand.

Brian

 

[Trey T]

If there are techs in your area hungry enough for work, sure ask them to install them. Some people reported that techs don't like that for reasons related to warranty. Again, YMMV.

The money maker is not only on the service they provide but the retail price they're wanting to charge you. The retail price is very arbitrary; a $2380 wholesale can cost you $5000. The arbitrary pricing result in companies not advertising a "MSRP" on their website; this is good for the HVAC service men because they can make big bucks!!!

 

[yeldogt]

You should make sure the unit is sized properly -- this is especially true for areas with any high humidity season. Getting the correct size is most important

The better units are not only more efficient -- they are very quiet.

Units able to adjust output require a variable speed blower ... do you have a furnace? How cold does it get and for how long? Modern HP's really work well.

I have mostly done Carrier/ Bryant ... getting it properly installed is the key. And all the good installers around me always include replacing the line-set when going from one freon type to the next ... most of the companies have 10 year parts warranties.

 

[honda1998civic]

Lots of good input.

I have been quoted for 14 seer by three different companies. That's why I figured that was decent..

As for the brand that was the brand recommended by a company I got a quote for. Said parts were easy to come by and inexpensive.

I live in south east Texas. It doesn't get cold down here for long so a heater is the least of my worries.

Also I was just trying to see if I could order me a better quality system myself and just get an ac tech to install it to save a little. But if the price increase is just part of the bonuses of having a license then I get it..

 

[yeldogt]

If you get an air handler w/ heat pump -- you have heat when you need it. What't the inside unit currently -- furnace or AH?

All this "parts hard to get" ... I don't get .... whatever dealer sells the product has the parts ... some companies like Lenox try not to make parts available on the open market .. but they still are covered by warranty and available.

The higher SEER units are going to have bigger condensers --a nd then they move to two speed and above.

 

[honda1998civic]

Inside is a gas furnace.. Another company quoted me today and they also went with goodman and Coleman. The goodman quote was for inside and out for 4300 so a lot less than another company. Sounds like a pretty good price but I'll see what other brand he can get me that isn't goodman. Thanks

 

[mustangacman]

Nothing wrong with Goodman. I installed mine back in 1998 and its still kicking. What makes a system last is how it is installed. And yes I have been in the HVAC trade since 1975. Mine now is a 12 seer. I will be replacing it next year with a 18 seer Goodman.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Why are you even considering a 14 SEER unit? Get something more-efficient. And I don't recommend Goodman. I have a couple friends in the HVAC business and while they will install a Goodman unit for people who insist on them, reason of price usually, it's 'penny-wise, pound-foolish' to choose Goodman. When the Goodman unit has something fail, you still have to pay labor even if the part is free. And, Goodman parts are more-prone to failure. That's two different master license-holders for HVAC speaking, not a weekend warrior.

RHEEM or RUUD are what are the AC contractors recommend for most customers. I've had installed two whole-house AC's in the last few years and chose Bryant for the compressor and Carrier for the air handler (Bryant and Lennox for the other), SEER of 19.5. More-expensive but the difference in the electric bill was dramatic. August prior to the changeout was $285, August post-changeout was $130! That's one house. The other house, we added two additions, so you really can't compare before/after, but the bill was still lower than the 'before' bill in the second home, even with the square footage additions!

I just spoke with the HVAC master license holder who has done my work about getting a mini-split for the garage, 2 car, w/a loft. He's recommending a Mitsubishi, he said Fujitsu is very efficient, but not many people carry them. I'm meeting him next week at the house to get a bid on the garage install. We just did a big re-model including the garage configuration, and the garage is already wired for the 220 v mini-split.

http://www.rheem.com/

https://www.ruud.com/products/hvac/

http://www.bryant.com/bryant/en/us/

http://www.carrier.com/residential/en/us/

http://www.fujitsugeneral.com/us/residential/index.html

http://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/products

Here we go again the armchair quarter backs with no experiance in the trades telling people what brand of equipment yo buy.
And yes I am a mechanical contractor.
Goodman has a 10 year warranty on parts like everybody else,there's nothing wrong with goodman equipnent.
Like I said buy what you can get local support for.

 

[Notgrownup]

My Goodman is 16 years old and just got it serviced, the contractor told me if I insisted on getting a new unit he wouldn't flinch on Goodman , and he's a Trane dealer....Goodman makes compressors and other parts for other so called Manufacturers I have been told... the high dollar systems cost high dollar to repair like those variable speed deals...good lord they are high...
I was quoted $4500 to re do my whole system turn key with a 15 I think seer Goodman 3 ton for my 1700 sq ft house...but he said I really didn't need it.
My boss was quoted $8000 for same size Trane. 2 different companies as well"

Bottom line, I will probably go with Good an again abs with the 10 year warranty, it's all good....

The contractor came out on a Sunday to replace a blown capacitor one time when it was 110 degrees...$125.00... service call...I gladly paid it...and they ended up crediting my account for the part...the guy wasn't sure and I told him, it doesn't matter what the thing costs, just give me A/C and he did...lol

 

[yeldogt]

Goodman gets a bad rap because they sell to the general public -- every hack installs Goodman. Lots of them are poorly installed and not sized correctly. They also have a huge part of the "builder grade" market -- most manufacturers have a builder line .. Goodman really went after it. All the townhouses have Goodman or York (builder) screaming outside.

The builder line is basic stuff with thinner cabinets -- less compressor protections ... the normal stuff you would do with any product to cut costs. They are louder. Goodman bought Amana and they use Amana's name on the better stuff. Goodman's best stuff does not approach that of better Carrier or Trane lines -- the controls etc. Daikin bought Goodman a few years ago.

It comes down to what you want and need - and can afford. After I installed my first two speed compressor with variable speed blower about 13 years ago -- I understood the difference. My new place has a 5 speed compressor .. it was 91 yesterday ... my system changes speed all day long matching output to the set temp -- all silent. The inside makes no noise .. ever... and I have to look to see if the fan is spinning to tell if the outside uint is running on anything but 5 .. and then it's just humming.

It monitors the humidity level and will run with very low fan to take out humidity on those not too hot days .. but high humidity. I have had one service on the 13 year old carrier unit -- about 5 years ago -- taken care of with the 10/10 parts and service warranty.

The better units do cost more -- it's not all about efficiencies -- but they do save some $$ on electric. The new units are as much about silent comfort as saving $$ on energy.

 

[eddieK]

I haven't used my central ac in two years and just installed window units. I installed new windows and I'm ready for central ac. What is a decent price for central ac system? I have one quote for 7,000 inside and outside unit. Is it possible to just replaced the outside unit and inside coil or is it recommended to do entire replacement? The quote I have gotten is for 14 seer 4 ton unit trane brand inside and outside unit with a disconnect and thermostat upgrade. I live in south Texas so ac is a must. Heater is a toss up. Can I get some opinions on what are must haves on an ac system? Thanks

To get 14 SEER you have to replace the air mover.

Keep in mind the commutated motor is pretty awesome...and so is the commutated motor replacement cost. Today, a standard blower motor replacement (split capacitor style, 4 speed) runs about $400.00. A commutated motor replacement is about $1,600.00. Part of this excessive cost is that (at least today on the few I have had to replace) you MUST also update the circuit board.

 

[eddieK]

ALSO -

Goodman has improved, they took over the Amana tooling and their equipment improved dramatically, yet this equipment does not even remotely compare to Rheem (Ruud is the same Equipment, different sticker). Lennox and Trane.

You do get what you pay for.

More importantly, it is ALL about how it is installed.

Air conditioning is about dynamics, You must have the proper air flow, you must have matching expansion valves, proper pipe sizing and you must have a proper start up procedure, including a solid pressure test, a 500 micron evac and a final charge set by super heat and sub cooling.

Or - you end up paying much much more in the long (and short) run.

I've been doing this 40 yrs...I will not under any circumstances install equipment a client buys because A) I do not need the practice and B) I have no support system and ALL the phone calls when things I have no control over go hay wire.

 

[honda1998civic]

Ok. Check this out guys. What about a Coleman brand 15 seer 4 ton? Was quoted for Coleman for 4500 inside and out. 10 years warranty on parts AND labor...

And by a different contractor. Rheem 14 seer 4 ton for 4800 inside and out..

Opinions about Coleman?

 

[yeldogt]

Ok. Check this out guys. What about a Coleman brand 15 seer 4 ton? Was quoted for Coleman for 4500 inside and out. 10 years warranty on parts AND labor...

And by a different contractor. Rheem 14 seer 4 ton for 4800 inside and out..

Opinions about Coleman?

Coleman is Johnson Control ... they make York.

With any of the basic stuff -- it's all about the install ........... making sure they are putting in the correct equipment -- correct size. The ductwork is correct for the unit.

How do you know you need 4T. When you say "inside" what do you have now. the inside can be an air handler or just the coil on your old furnace ..if so how old is the furnace?

Shopping by price is dangerous .. because install is so important.

 

[Showkey]

Here we go again the armchair quarter backs with no experiance in the trades telling people what brand of equipment yo buy.
And yes I am a mechanical contractor.
Goodman has a 10 year warranty on parts like everybody else,there's nothing wrong with goodman equipnent.
Like I said buy what you can get local support for.

Agree.........^^^^^^^^

Not to mention AC manufactures like water heaters have experienced a lot of consolidation:

First things first, however. While there are many brands of central air conditioners, digging deeper reveals that the majority of central air conditioners are made by a handful of companies, marketing merely makes it looks as if you have a wider range of choices. The major manufacturers are:

Trane, which also makes American Standard
Carrier, which owns Bryant, Payne and Tempstar
Lennox, which owns Ducane, Armstrong, Concord, Allied and AirEase
Rheem, which owns Ruud
Goodman, which makes Amana and Janitrol
York, which makes Coleman and Luxaire
Nortek Global HVAC, which makes Maytag, Westinghouse, Frigidaire, Kelvinator and others

Then remember many might be buying the same parts and components from the same sub suppliers. So driftpin the first four on your list are basicly the same two of the 6 big player left in the biz.

 

[eddieK]

Ok. Check this out guys. What about a Coleman brand 15 seer 4 ton? Was quoted for Coleman for 4500 inside and out. 10 years warranty on parts AND labor...

And by a different contractor. Rheem 14 seer 4 ton for 4800 inside and out..

Opinions about Coleman?

Coleman is a York product...look online about their aluminum coil issues.

Something to consider - a warranteed coil (condenser) is great. Except picture what a contractor encounters if this coil fails...Yes sir or maam...I know that you spent $7,000.00 - $13,000.00 on this system just three (4, 5, 7 or 8)years ago and that YOU know you have a warranted coil...BUT - including labor and refrigerant that coil warranty costs YOU $1,200.00 - $1,600.00.

 

[eddieK]

Agree.........^^^^^^^^

Not to mention AC manufactures like water heaters have experienced a lot of consolidation:

First things first, however. While there are many brands of central air conditioners, digging deeper reveals that the majority of central air conditioners are made by a handful of companies, marketing merely makes it looks as if you have a wider range of choices. The major manufacturers are:

Trane, which also makes American Standard
Carrier, which owns Bryant, Payne and Tempstar
Lennox, which owns Ducane, Armstrong, Concord, Allied and AirEase
Rheem, which owns Ruud
Goodman, which makes Amana and Janitrol
York, which makes Coleman and Luxaire
Nortek Global HVAC, which makes Maytag, Westinghouse, Frigidaire, Kelvinator and others

Then remember many might be buying the same parts and components from the same sub suppliers. So driftpin the first four on your list are basicly the same two of the 6 big player left in the biz.

This "arm chair" quarterback has been in the trade over 40 yrs...

Goodman is not top of the line, it was a viable option when it was CONSIDERABLY less expensive, now that they have come up in price considerably I no longer recommend it.

Lennox Builders model is the safest bet in my book, for the best quality for the cost. Those are (at least in my area) A/C pro and Aire-Flo.

Rheem has substantially raised the cost of their equipment the last few years and Trane was/is always expensive.

Today's aluminum micro-channel coils ARE an issue...I strongly suggest research on coil failures.

https://www.law360.com/articles/513602/goodman-faces-803m-in-damages-in-air-conditioner-action

 

[eddieK]

This is the most comprehensive manufacturer list I have ran across.

http://johnmills.net/work/history.html

 

[honda1998civic]

Hear you Guys loud and clear. So rheem would be a better choice? As far as less problematic? I understand installation has a lot to do with it but the bids that actually gave me fair price one guy works solo as his secondary job.

And the other bid was from a Firestone company that has workers under his license doing the work but has plenty experience..

Decisions, decisions

And would a 15 seer be a decent unit with rheem brand?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Ok. Check this out guys. What about a Coleman brand 15 seer 4 ton? Was quoted for Coleman for 4500 inside and out. 10 years warranty on parts AND labor...

And by a different contractor. Rheem 14 seer 4 ton for 4800 inside and out..

Opinions about Coleman?

Coleman/evcon has been a manufacturer for other company's equipment for many years.
That's why I say go by warranty and ability to get parts,over name brands .

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Agree.........^^^^^^^^

Not to mention AC manufactures like water heaters have experienced a lot of consolidation:

First things first, however. While there are many brands of central air conditioners, digging deeper reveals that the majority of central air conditioners are made by a handful of companies, marketing merely makes it looks as if you have a wider range of choices. The major manufacturers are:

Trane, which also makes American Standard
Carrier, which owns Bryant, Payne and Tempstar
Lennox, which owns Ducane, Armstrong, Concord, Allied and AirEase
Rheem, which owns Ruud
Goodman, which makes Amana and Janitrol
York, which makes Coleman and Luxaire
Nortek Global HVAC, which makes Maytag, Westinghouse, Frigidaire, Kelvinator and others

Then remember many might be buying the same parts and components from the same sub suppliers. So driftpin the first four on your list are basicly the same two of the 6 big player left in the biz.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

This "arm chair" quarterback has been in the trade over 40 yrs...

Goodman is not top of the line, it was a viable option when it was CONSIDERABLY less expensive, now that they have come up in price considerably I no longer recommend it.

Lennox Builders model is the safest bet in my book, for the best quality for the cost. Those are (at least in my area) A/C pro and Aire-Flo.

Rheem has substantially raised the cost of their equipment the last few years and Trane was/is always expensive.

Today's aluminum micro-channel coils ARE an issue...I strongly suggest research on coil failures.

https://www.law360.com/articles/513602/goodman-faces-803m-in-damages-in-air-conditioner-action

Nobody said you were an armchair quarter back,but the guy who I quoted in my origional post was.
I've got plenty of 20 plus year old goodman units around omaha that I installed that are still running fine.
Theres also plenty of 20 plus year old ducane (coleman/evcon built) condensers out there that I've installed that are still running.
There's also plenty of weather king condensers out there ive done.
Like we've all said it comes down to the install,and also how the units are taken care of .
If you dont keep it cleaned out and the filters changed any ac or furnace will drop dead no matter what brand or what you pay for it.
There's no reason why any condensing unit shouldn't last 15 plus years no matter what the brand .

 

[Trey T]

^coleman is a Johnson Control product to be exact. It's not about the material, aluminum or copper, of the heat exchange unit (condensor or evap), it's the pipe design.

In residential, you have two types, tubular or microchannel, of heat exchangers. Microchannel is gaining popularity in higher efficiency units but have reported problems, particular Johnson Control products.

For residential, I believe the inverter type compressor will gain the popularity to achieve highest efficiency w/ using traditional tubular coil condensor or evap. Daikin/Goodman has one w/ 24.5SEER

 

[Showkey]

Coleman is a York product...look online about their aluminum coil issues.

Something to consider - a warranteed coil (condenser) is great. Except picture what a contractor encounters if this coil fails...Yes sir or maam...I know that you spent $7,000.00 - $13,000.00 on this system just three (4, 5, 7 or 8)years ago and that YOU know you have a warranted coil...BUT - including labor and refrigerant that coil warranty costs YOU $1,200.00 - $1,600.00.

Tend to agree but many manufactures have rust and corrosion problems.........good friend lives in Florida. Trane AC units upgraded to the gold series after the first in a series of coil replacements. Part was free but labor and refrig were getting him every three years like clock work. He was a first name basis with the service guy........and he thought he bought up on quality chain

 

[honda1998civic]

Just about sealed the deal on a rheem 14 seer inside and outside unit. Was told I would be haut wasting money if I went with a higher seer and dust change out my ductwork. So with what I can afford now I wanted to leave ductwork alone.

Also rheem does have the aluminum coils. Would this automatically mean to scratch this brand unit?

But my question is on heater btu. Was told I have 100,000 btu but in south Texas we don't really use heater. And it was always too hot with this heater so we used electric heater in the rooms. Would it be safe to downgrade to 75000 buy or just leave it at 100,000 btu? I mentioned it to the ac tech but he said if I have 100,000 btu he would recommend leaving it as such.

Opinions?

 

[truckman5000]

Do a heat calc. on the home in your area. Your probably looking as a 75k btu heat with a 4ton drive for a/c per. say.

 

[honda1998civic]

And where or who do i contact for heat calculation?

 

[LS6 Tommy]

As long as the line set is sized right and flushed out good,there's no problem with changing just condensing unit and A coil.
As far as pricing,thats,a regional thing.
As far as brand goes I say go with something thats,easy to get parts/service for locally and has a decent warranty.
Don't get too wrapped up in big names/bells and whistles.

Not if it's R22. If it is, he needs pretty much a completely new system.

Tommy

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Not if it's R22. If it is, he needs pretty much a completely new system.

Tommy

There's no reason to replace the lines if they're sized right and flushed.

 

[honda1998civic]

Ok. Well ac tech was talking about 410 refrigerant so I decided to get new inside and outside unit. But asked about rheem coil and said it was aluminum so I asked if he could get a copper coil instead. Still waiting to hear back.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

There's no reason to replace the lines if they're sized right and flushed.

Except they have to be silver soldered or brazed. So if it's an old 22 unit that was almost definitely soft soldered, they must be replaced.

Tommy

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . . if your quotes have not included LOAD CALC based on cumulative sizes of each specific room as compared to size of ductwork feeding the rooms . . .
. . . AND . . . whether critical cooling/heating areas have RETURN air ductwork also properly sized . . . . .
. . . .
. . . . . . THEN . . . you have NOT YET found a quality HVAC installation company.

If you have overheat problems in S. Texas with 100K Btu sure sounds like oversized furnace, but again it all depends on overall sizing and ductwork.

I'd sure want higher SEER than just 14 in S TX where A/C will be running almost year-round. My gut says you should be looking at 16 SEER.

OP . . . what kind of ductwork do you have?? Is it well-engineered and sized properly?? Are they sealed and steel ?? If you have those flimsy accordian-style duct "pipes," then start over with all new ductwork.

What kind of insulation and windows are in the house ??

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Except they have to be silver soldered or brazed. So if it's an old 22 unit that was almost definitely soft soldered, they must be replaced.

Tommy

You can use the same stay Brite 8 on the 410a systems as the r22 systems.
Never had any problems with leaks on them.
I've actually done more condenser and coil change outs to 410a systems already this year than all of last year.
I guess people are optimistic about the economy and are ready to spend money.

 

[d33pt]

Nothing wrong with Goodman. I installed mine back in 1998 and its still kicking. What makes a system last is how it is installed. And yes I have been in the HVAC trade since 1975. Mine now is a 12 seer. I will be replacing it next year with a 18 seer Goodman.

what makes a good install vs a bad install?

 

[gtae07]

I think we paid about $6k for a new unit last July. The coil in our old one was busted and given it used older refrigerant, the replacement cost was close enough to the repair cost we did the whole thing. We also upgraded to a heat pump, and what a difference that makes in the winter (over electric resistive heat... yes, that's right, the original system was AC only and used the "emergency" heat strips for all heat--we aren't the original owner and didn't pick that!)

I had a choice of higher-efficiency units but I did some payback estimates and the break-even date was further in the future than we plan to stay in the house. Sorry, future owner...

 

[honda1998civic]

Ok. My ductwork is metal tin like ductwork and wrapped with the insulation. Not sure about the ductwork size though. My return air has two openings roughly about 16x24"..

The costs for coil and outside unit was 600 dollars cheaper but I figured it wasn't that much difference in costs and for piece of mind to just get it all changed out.

Ac tech did say existing pad outside unit sits on may still work so no need for another one but would get definite measurement.

I'm not optimistic about economy recovery but since I replaced my house with double pane windows I didn't want ac units hanging out of them. I have about 12" blow in insulation in attic. No insulation in walls but outside is brick so helps a little.