Consequences of unpermitted work

[polar8]

Most of these types of questions go to my building inspector... except this one

So far, I have followed the permitting procedure 100% for my garage build. Building, planning, electrical are all by the book. But when it comes to plumbing, there's I might need to break the rules to do what I want.

I want a full bathroom in my garage because it's a 2-story building with a bedroom upstairs. The idea is that it would be for guests. But my city (San Jose CA) will only allow 2 plumbing fixtures in the building. 3 or more (e.g. sink+shower+toilet) makes it a "secondary dwelling" which means I also need to get it permitted as such. But due to my small lot size, a secondary dwelling is not allowed.

I've had 2 plumbers come over and they both said the same thing. Rough in a connection for the shower, and as soon as the inspectors leave, open up the wall and install the shower.

That sounds like a great workaround but I'm wondering what the consequences might be for an illegal shower. Trouble with the insurance company if there's some kind of plumbing issue that results in water damage, and they find out about the illegal shower? Problems when it comes time to sell the house?

The whole thing seems really low-risk overall. But I'm just trying to figure out what the possible consequences might be, if any.

 

[redneckcharlie]

First question, why would u claim something like that in the first place if it happened? Do the plumbing correctly and itll be a non issue. I have to admit Ive done exactly what theyve suggested several times. Municipalities can be a serious pain to deal with at times. Even if u had a complete loss due to fire the insurance company is only going to concerned with the co u received in the end. Around here permit avoidance on interior items has more to do trying to avoid the assessor jacking the property taxes then code compliance.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Just install the right two fixtures. With this one, the sink runs every time you flush until the tank refills.

Or, leave out the sink. You can wash hands in the shower.

Or, install a sink but delete the faucet. Use bottled water to brush teeth.

Or, leave stupid California.

 

[jhark123]

^lol

 

[Hilltopmasonry]

A concern you would have is upon selling the residence then you would have to convert it back to make it legal again

I would not worry too much about the insurance aspect of it


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[kbs2244]

That kind of thing is not usually discovered until you sell.
And even then not unless the RE Agent gets carried away.

 

[Thumper68]

99.9% of all homes built before last week have unpermitted work in them. In all my years I have never seen a sale or ins claim denied for it, when I do "Hear" about it it is always someones cousins third girlfriends next door neighbors aunt who had it happen.

 

[ard]

If that shower catches fire and burns the house down, the insurance wont cover it!!!


(sorry, this from the electrical forum...)

The county likely would never find out. If they did, they can make you remove the offending installation.

When you sell it, you will need to disclose. Your realtor can help. My position would be "I can take the shower out so it complies OR you can accept the property with this issue- your call."

Im in a very very similar position now, with a bathroom in my barn. F em.

 

[Hilltopmasonry]

99.9% of all homes built before last week have unpermitted work in them. In all my years I have never seen a sale or ins claim denied for it, when I do "Hear" about it it is always someones cousins third girlfriends next door neighbors aunt who had it happen.

A lot of the towns around here are doing a required pre-sale inspection to make sure the house is up to code. The town will not allow the transfer of the property until it meets those codes


If no inspection is required then I agree it’ll probably never be caught however it depends on the jurisdiction

A friend of mine had a beautiful kitchen that he put in the basement for his mother-in-law and the town made him rip the whole thing out because it was never permitted

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[ard]

A lot of the towns around here are doing a required pre-sale inspection to make sure the house is up to code. The town will not allow the transfer of the property until it meets those codes

Which 'code'? The code in effect when the home was built, or last remodeled? Or the current code, based on the sale/inspection date?

I am not doubting you, but this just seems incredibly difficult to administer....

 

[Git]

When we bought our S Cal Tract Home in 2003 - there was an 'option' for another bedroom with it's own bathroom on the 2nd floor or you could leave it as an open space/game room. We went with the open space - but the builder still roughed in the plumbing for it anyways - I guess they like to keep their options open in case the first buyer backs out

So, if we ever decided that we needed another bathroom on the 2nd floor - I know right where everything is. Personally if I was in your shoes, I think I would take your plumbers suggestion but when adding the additional bathroom, at least try to do it in such a way that you could convert it back fairly easily

Pic is kind of hard to see but it shows the drain stack along with hot and cold water pipes coming up through the slab and capped off.

 

[Thumper68]

And there is a huge difference between Code and permitted, I do all my home improvements above code because I like it that way buy pull very few permits for my own stuff.

 

[TractorJeff]

My "accessory" building has pipes for water/electrical capped off. There is no permit to finish those 2 items. My answer to the Inspector is "they are there for the next owner to finish if he wants!"

 

[tfi racing]

A lot of the towns around here are doing a required pre-sale inspection to make sure the house is up to code. The town will not allow the transfer of the property until it meets those codes
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A perfect example of the useless cubicle dwellers at city hall not having enough to do,so they devise more ways to tax and harass the homeowner...

 

[Hilltopmasonry]

Which 'code'? The code in effect when the home was built, or last remodeled? Or the current code, based on the sale/inspection date?



I am not doubting you, but this just seems incredibly difficult to administer....

Whatever the Current codes the town requires

For Example my parents bought a house that was built in the 60s in westchester IL in 2014. Before the town permitted the sale the previous owner had to have it inspected and had upgrade the required outlets to GFI‘s even though the house was never originally required to have GFI‘s


http://www.westchester-il.org/index.aspx?NID=265

Another town
http://www.northlakecity.com/pre-sale-inspections/

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[crf731]

I'd do what you need to do to get the inspector to pass everything. Then modify it to how you want it. I've owned and sold 5 houses and done plenty of my own unpermitted work.

Not once has anyone ever questioned anything or went down to the city office and checked to see if I pulled a permit for anything.

I wouldn't worry about it, especially if the work is inside where no one is going to see it unless you let them in.

 

[ddawg16]

As long as that bedroom is for guests and you don't rent it out....the inspectors will never make another trip to the garage.

But....if you decide you want some extra income and rent it out........if someone complains....they will be knocking on your door.

 

[denis4x4]

Fifty percent of the work in the building department here is inspecting non-conforming work on houses under sales contracts. A good RE agent will pull county records showing permits, etc. and compare those with the actual house. There may be issues that will affect insurance and possibly financing.

I must admit that I have several non-conforming issues..

 

[brownbagg]

just build it to code, code and zoning is too different issues

 

[Stuart in MN]

Worst case is they could tell you to tear the place down and start over That would be rare but it can happen - last year, there was a pretty sizable apartment building under construction here and the inspector caught something that was not being done correctly, and even though the building was essentially completely framed the contractor actually did have to take the whole place down and rebuild it.

 

[redneckcharlie]

In all my years of doing this professionally if the work done looks professional and not diy, nobody questions anything. Theres no reason to.

 

[01-7700]

My last house was in an area with no ordinances and no code enforcement - what a joy that was.

 

[Reata]

Like

 

[ScottsGT]

I see this issue come up all the time on HGTV with the house flipping couple. They buy it, find out its out of code and had to be removed/torn down.

That being said, and I hate to admit this, but I can understand the code enforcement in one respect. If 1 in every 100 homes in that area had added bathrooms, you know damned good and well a large percentage of those will be room rentals, etc putting heavier stresses on the infrastructure.

In rural areas it's based on the perk test of the septic system. You just cannot overload the infrastructure.

But I have read some posts on here where the local governments are just freaking whacked with their rules and the majority of the time, it's so they can tax the homeowner more.

 

[Lelandwelds]

My last house was in an area with no ordinances and no code enforcement - what a joy that was.

I didnt know how special my place was until I started reading about the craptastic government other people contend with.

 

[ADSR]

It's your house, do as you like. I've done many things like this building houses for customers. Even going as far as staging a false floor with a inch of concrete on top and calling it a crawl space. After the inspector passes, it all came back out, and passed the sq/ft law on the property.

 

[ADSR]

A perfect example of the useless cubicle dwellers at city hall not having enough to do,so they devise more ways to tax and harass the homeowner...

It's worse in Victoria than where you are. I work with these guys, they're brutal.

 

[Tunajoe]

Dude, you live in SJ.
You think if you ever sell, the buyers are going to care?
Rents/sales are astronomical in your area.
In my opinion, you'll make your house more desirable.
I lived in South San Fran in the early nineties and rehabbed and sold six different houses. None of the work was permitted and I never had one single issue with it.

 

[ard]

Whatever the Current codes the town requires

For Example my parents bought a house that was built in the 60s in westchester IL in 2014. Before the town permitted the sale the previous owner had to have it inspected and had upgrade the required outlets to GFI‘s even though the house was never originally required to have GFI‘s


http://www.westchester-il.org/index.aspx?NID=265

Another town
http://www.northlakecity.com/pre-sale-inspections/

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Quite the scam

There are no criteria listed anywhere....but then I dug deeper:

http://www.westchester-il.org/DocumentCenter/View/3459

The published policy seems to be quite different that 'every single code needs to be complied with'. In fact the stated policy has very little regarding electrical, other than 'exposed wires shall be safe' and 'panels shall be labeled'

Still, the 'scam' seems to be these little nazi inspectors can put down whatever they want, and the seller is coerced into paying to get the sale done. Or, your realtor slips them $500 and you get a clean inspection.


Thanks for the link. Shocking.

 

[johnnyradiant]

There's a house in West Vancouver that the city council is going after. Not just parts but the whole darn thing. They're going to court to get the whole thing demo'd. They say there are no permits for what was built- they took permits out to build a house of one size and shape and built another. The owners say that it has gone through proper design and engineers have inspected it and it is fine structurally (plumbing and electrical too). If memory serves it's a $3m home. Why any would want to get into a ******* match with their city govt is beyond me.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

Clawfoot tub.

" Its a garage, of course there is a drain in the floor."

 

[firebirdparts]

just build it to code, code and zoning is too different issues

This ^ Don't get confused.

 

[jetnow1]

My sister is a real estate agent, and their policy is to verify what permits have been pulled for any property they represent as either seller or buyer. That said
they would never pick up that there was the shower installed as long as there
was a plumbing permit pulled.

 

[Hilltopmasonry]

Quite the scam



There are no criteria listed anywhere....but then I dug deeper:



http://www.westchester-il.org/DocumentCenter/View/3459



The published policy seems to be quite different that 'every single code needs to be complied with'. In fact the stated policy has very little regarding electrical, other than 'exposed wires shall be safe' and 'panels shall be labeled'



Still, the 'scam' seems to be these little nazi inspectors can put down whatever they want, and the seller is coerced into paying to get the sale done. Or, your realtor slips them $500 and you get a clean inspection.





Thanks for the link. Shocking.

I may be bashed for this but I actually agree with the inspections. I would not call it a scam although I do believe you have to pay for it so yea that *****. Yea they are are a pain it the *** and adds one more step to sell/buy a house but....

As a contractor I am constantly dealing with and competing with hack contractors coming in cheap and telling homeowners that they don’t want to deal with permits and the village. (Because they are unlicensed/uninsured and can’t get a permit) Well they do hack and dangerous work and most homeowners don’t know the difference. All the people see is their new “open” concept kitchen and new cabinets. They don’t see the electrical panel that was mutilated and they don’t see the plumbing that is not up to code

and the biggest thing is people around here do is frame out and “add” a bedroom in the basements but the problem is old homes do not have egress windows, Well if the house gets inspected before sale the new owners know that they have an illegal basement bedroom therefor a potentially deadly situation in the event of a fire. 90% of homeowners don’t know that

One thing on the list is that the house has working smoke and co detectors where required. After all these years you would think people would know to have one in their home

So in conclusion it is my opinion that there needs to be a balance of regulation with not getting too crazy

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[NUTTSGT]

You can do it legally or illegally. I know what I would do...follow the plumbers advice.

I was going to suggest what Leland mentioned...there are other varieties to check out also. For a guy in the garage, this might be perfect and easy to clean.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000R8CLHK/?tag=atomicindus08-20

https://www.neo-metro.com/comby

 

[yeldogt]

You would not have any insurance issue .. people keep bring up insurance not paying for things. You are insured against being stupid .. that's how many claims begin.

There are many builders who "rough in" for future bathrooms ... etc. The reason is because now it's approved ... in some areas getting a bathroom added is a big deal .. especially if on a septic system.

Around me RE transactions are checked against permits for older houses -- and how they are listed in the tax records. Towns are really worried about people adding full bathrooms in separate building because they become rental units with kids in the school system.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

It's not just about when you go to sell. Next time you get reassessed you can be pretty much screwed.

When I did windows on my breezeway my neighbor asked me why I got a permit, saying he was a "Home Improvement Contractor" and if you say you did the work yourself, they never ask for permits down the road. He did all kinds of things on his house without permits.
The Town did a reassessment a few years later and they raked him over the coals. Made him pay some pretty big fines, pay for new permits, fix a few things and get everything inspected. Fortunately, he hadn't done anything that was severely non-compliant.

Tommy

 

[bczygan]

It's a judgement call, based on your particular situation. And consider not just the present conditions where you live, but any possible future changes.

 

[DGersic]

Inspection here has been known to watch unpermitted work, like a shed or deck being built, wait for it to be done, then turn up to inspect the footings for compliance. Also, with no permit to show when the work was done, tax reassessment happens “now” vs. next time it would have been re-evaluated. It’s cheaper and easier to get a permit than to argue with the city. Even for interior work where it’d be easy to do without a permit, I go get one.


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[yeldogt]

Inspection here has been known to watch unpermitted work, like a shed or deck being built, wait for it to be done, then turn up to inspect the footings for compliance. Also, with no permit to show when the work was done, tax reassessment happens “now” vs. next time it would have been re-evaluated. It’s cheaper and easier to get a permit than to argue with the city. Even for interior work where it’d be easy to do without a permit, I go get one.


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The problem for the OP is that he has a permit -- he can't get the OK for the shower. This is another place were a local government passes things that have nothing to do with public safety.