mrshaun
Well-known member
it didnt at first then it did, now it doesnt. if it does not show COO then why would you automatically assume it is not usa made. I hope snap on says something back to you guys...
snap on s80 not made in america??
- Thread starter tpolley
- Start date
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
because it's our experience that it isn't, if it isn't marked. there is simply no reason to NOT stamp MADE IN USA if it does in fact meet the criteria for US made.
mrshaun
Well-known member
that statement was asked and they still said usa made...
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
i think the issue is one of trust here. they have said a lot of things in the past. claimed to have made things "in house" when it wasn't, etc.......
The battery chargers are also still from China even if the website tell something different and the SO rep tell something different.....
They can say whatever they want.... only important is what they stamp on the tool, because thats what they can get sued for if its untrue. On the homepage it could be a misprint ...on 100.000 ratchets not... .....no USA stamp not 100% made in USA..........
They can say whatever they want.... only important is what they stamp on the tool, because thats what they can get sued for if its untrue. On the homepage it could be a misprint ...on 100.000 ratchets not... .....no USA stamp not 100% made in USA..........
I wouldn`t blame the government for everything.
Maybe Snap-on has grown too big.
Maybe 11 "Directors" and 10 "Board Committees" and 32 "presidents" and "vice presidents" in their management team are too much (Salary of a "vice president" in Kenosha: click
). Imagine the salary they cost without producing anything. Plus all the managers and directors from their overseas branches. They also have to earn the millions to buy all the companies: Eurotools ,Bahco, Hofmann,Cartec and the chinese plier manufacturer so the customer has to pay for that too. And also imagine the costs for all their sponsorships. They sponsor 4 NASCAR drivers (cost of sponsoring between 500.000 to 20 million !!! source: click + 5 dragracing teams + indy and Grand-am racing series....
So if the money is invested to grow with acquiring other companies and sponsorship etc. maybe there is no money left to increase productivity (new machines, robots) for their hand tool production...
There is also a limited customer base for Snap-On branded (and priced) hand tools and also the Blue-point tools are mostly overpriced so who can afford them except in USA, Canada, Japan a couple of western european countries and a few others. So prices will grow further because of growing production costs (wages, material, unproductiveness) (e.g. SO S936 109.-$ click (price from 12/2007) and now the successor 135.-$ that`s a price increase of about 25% in just 2 years !! (and nowadays with taiwanese gear assembly). A look in the Hazet catalog for example shows a price for the 72 tooth ratchet of 45.60 € (2007) vs. 48.05 € (2009). (coarse tooth 43.80 vs. 46.20)
and also:
From SO website:
"Premium price: Snap-on products and services compete in the premium segment of their respective categories. As the overwhelming choice of professionals, our customers have high expectations and are willing to pay more for products that deliver higher value."
So they also charge more because they can.
So the government has nothing to do with all above.
ps + btw: just take a look into the history books and look who opened Pandora`s Box and forced the Chinese (and Japanese) to trade with them. So now you can`t complain.
Maybe Snap-on has grown too big.
Maybe 11 "Directors" and 10 "Board Committees" and 32 "presidents" and "vice presidents" in their management team are too much (Salary of a "vice president" in Kenosha: click
). Imagine the salary they cost without producing anything. Plus all the managers and directors from their overseas branches. They also have to earn the millions to buy all the companies: Eurotools ,Bahco, Hofmann,Cartec and the chinese plier manufacturer so the customer has to pay for that too. And also imagine the costs for all their sponsorships. They sponsor 4 NASCAR drivers (cost of sponsoring between 500.000 to 20 million !!! source: click + 5 dragracing teams + indy and Grand-am racing series....So if the money is invested to grow with acquiring other companies and sponsorship etc. maybe there is no money left to increase productivity (new machines, robots) for their hand tool production...
There is also a limited customer base for Snap-On branded (and priced) hand tools and also the Blue-point tools are mostly overpriced so who can afford them except in USA, Canada, Japan a couple of western european countries and a few others. So prices will grow further because of growing production costs (wages, material, unproductiveness) (e.g. SO S936 109.-$ click (price from 12/2007) and now the successor 135.-$ that`s a price increase of about 25% in just 2 years !! (and nowadays with taiwanese gear assembly). A look in the Hazet catalog for example shows a price for the 72 tooth ratchet of 45.60 € (2007) vs. 48.05 € (2009). (coarse tooth 43.80 vs. 46.20)
and also:
From SO website:
"Premium price: Snap-on products and services compete in the premium segment of their respective categories. As the overwhelming choice of professionals, our customers have high expectations and are willing to pay more for products that deliver higher value."
So they also charge more because they can.
So the government has nothing to do with all above.
ps + btw: just take a look into the history books and look who opened Pandora`s Box and forced the Chinese (and Japanese) to trade with them. So now you can`t complain.
chadster1
Well-known member
Do you blame them?
woody 73
Well-known member
If I was a gambling Man I would say that we are headed for less and less of made in the usa,very very sad!
Now if this is the case so be it , but then I feel that I should not have to pay the sky high prices if the name says snappy and it comes from overseas.
Any thoughts out there...
Now if this is the case so be it , but then I feel that I should not have to pay the sky high prices if the name says snappy and it comes from overseas.
Any thoughts out there...
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
no......they have carved out thier market niche. BUT they will lose that niche in my opinion if they import hardline.
chadster1
Well-known member
I can't say that I disagree with you.
That is one of the reasons that I kept the USA F80 ratchets. I can see myself 20 years from now drinking a beer in my garage and pulling that ratchet out of my box and pointing to it and saying "Remember when......."
No
IF the product quality is unquestionable if a Snap-On product is made in the USA with union labor and the product is backed by a unlimited "no question asked" warranty and the sevice is top notch then no. But reading through this forum for a year now where customer have to chase their dealer to get their tools warranted or even back, when this text dissapeared from the website:
"All Snap-on® branded tools are made in the USA. Snap-on is on record as being a strong supporter of maintaining the integrity of the "Made in USA" label when the Federal Trade Commission was considering relaxing the standards. "
when i would have to wait a week (or longer) or so until the dealer delivers the tools i need or when identical tools are available for a lower price then yes i think the higher price don`t reflect what you get.
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This is a good and necessary discussion.. I'm pleased to see that people care. And before someone jumps on and says, "It's just the toolheads on Garagejournal" .. that's BS.. I knew A LOT of mechanics in the aircraft maintenance side of the business and without a doubt, 100% of them are of the same mind set.
benjamming
Well-known member
Monte,
SO plants are union? I didn't they they were (or at least not all of them). I'm speaking of US & Canada plants, of course.
SO plants are union? I didn't they they were (or at least not all of them). I'm speaking of US & Canada plants, of course.
SO know how sensitive the USA label is to American consumer of high end tools. It would be unprudent of SO not to mark their tools if it is so. The reason they did not mark it is beacuse it is really not made in US.
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
fixed
AFAIK snap on plants are under IAM contract. but i think moving the air tool plant from nattuck to north carolina ended that contract.
I agree with some of those things... but think of the world as a giant fish tank with those little pebbles you buy at the pet store at the bottom.
Now think of the US as the part of the fish tank with a huge 6" deep pile of those pebbles, and China and other 3rd world nations as the area on the other side with 1" deep pebbles..
What some want to do is shake the tank until both sides are equal .. say about 3".. which translates to better standard of living for them and lower standard of living for us..
The fact that we've got a government (both parties, and presidents as far back as the 1970's).. that is in the hands of lobbies and banks is not new.. but the Europeans who also have intrusive governments still manage to protect their labor a bit better than we do... over their, they're dealing with the EU and whether it's fair for Germany and France t subsidize Italy and Spain.. or Whether it's ok to send a factory to Solvania or Hungary.. but those are all, after all European nations with a long history of ups and downs.. What we have here is a government (Again both parties seem complacent on this).. that are "ok" with us sending labor to China where they are still to this day making soup out of unborn babies as a delicacy!!!The Godless Chicoms should be our enemy, but since we benefit from making cheap **** there, money talks and BS walks..
I used to work contract for an outfit that did supplemental flights for Fedex into Shanghai back in 2006 and 2007 and I can tell you that we'd fly a MD11 freighter with a couple of Ferrari's and some Fedex envelopes inbound, and 200,000lbs of freight / goods outbound 2 times a day, 7 days a week... I saw the trade balance visually.. and you can bet that those Ferrari's were going to the new Chinese millionaire's that were making their millions on the back's of slave labor working 7 days a week 12 hours a day.. And you want the US worker to compete with that?
Anyway.. that's my rant..
You can not blame other country for the US having a unionized labor rate that make the US uncompetitive. The US created the unions, now they have to live with it. China did not force their goods on US consumers. It is the US demands that drive it (it is call supply and demand if you study economic). If American can not afford its own products, how do you expect the Chinese to afford American products.
No doubt we here in the US would be much better off if we created a Lesser Product, built by slave labor in a unsafe working enviroment. What would even be better is if Snap on could come up with a New finish for there tools, Maybe we could borrow the chinese's Lead Paint ideas. Its always the unions fault, How much profit is enough for these companies? Snap on's Net Profit has tripled within the last 5 years...
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honestly, I don't really give a rat's *** about the slave labor or unsafe working environment. without the "slave labor or unsafe working environment" they probably stave to death, or out stealing, a little food in their month is hell a lot better than no food from a humanitarian stand point. remember, that's a country has 1.5 billion people, without a social security system. you think the jobless here is bad....
I'm more concerned about the tools, the alloy steel material and production method. these are highly guarded secret of Snap On since day one, now in order to produce the tools "up to the Snap ON standard" in a Chinese factory, do you give the Chinese these technology or not? well we all know what's gonna happen next if the answer is yes.
what happens if the answer is "NO"? how could the Chinese tools to be "the same Snap On standard" with out using the same quality material and production process and equipment.
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
the "made to (insert brand name) specifacions" is nothing more than advertising hype.
chadster1
Well-known member
I actually would be surprised if you do get a response. Snap-on has some very strict rules regarding company secrets.
COO on the ratcheting mechanism is a company secret?
it's not a hype any more when you turn in your American made wrench for warranty and get back with a Chinese one. it's reality, and it's coming, fast.
the sad thing is, everybody is doing it, there's no way to stop the trend. unless somebody stands up and say "Fawk it!!, I've had enough, I'm starting a new company and making American tools here, like Snap On 90 years ago". and that guy needs to have **** load of money because when Snap On see it, it will buy it then kill it.
it's what kind of alloy composition, and how to make them, i.e. forging and heat treatment.
a perfect example, look at an optical lens from a Leupold scope and a cheap scope. there are thousands of factories all over the world can make the cheap lens to the exact shape shape as the Leupold, but maybe less than 10 can make as clear as Leupold, that's called secret, know-how, or the money.
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woody 73
Well-known member
I recall hearing stories many years ago that most people could afford snap on tools. I guess that I was under the impression the reason for the very high prices that snap on charged for their tools was due in part to the high labor.
If this was the case and snap on is not loosing any money then why outsource to china? I am not a business major can someone explain this?
If this was the case and snap on is not loosing any money then why outsource to china? I am not a business major can someone explain this?
SO is a tool maker, not a steel maker. Who say other tool makers can not buy the same steel from the same vendor. I am pretty sure SO metal is of iron based to keep cost down. There are other alloy known as superalloy that used nickel or cobalt as base material that are much stronger than iron based, but the cost is so prohibited that it is mainly used in the aerospace industry. Iron base alloy is not difficult to make. Heat treatment is not that big of a secret either.
The internal ratcheting mechanism is the heart of the ratchet. Taiwan make those for SO. SO made the body, but how difficult is that. The body does not need to be super strong. The ratcheting mechanism will break before the body. Taiwan know about metalergy, heat treatment and precision machining (as so does China).
The internal ratcheting mechanism is the heart of the ratchet. Taiwan make those for SO. SO made the body, but how difficult is that. The body does not need to be super strong. The ratcheting mechanism will break before the body. Taiwan know about metalergy, heat treatment and precision machining (as so does China).
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
the hype is the only thing that is dictated is price point......
Yeah.. Um.. Uh... I was making reference to a earlier post, Where the Poster was insinuating that Snap on couldnt compete with China nor be profitable because of unions. I sure as hell dont condone Slave labor here in the US (which was what i was referencing in my earlier post), I feel that as a company that is making money they should spread the wealth thru there employees and provide them a decent wage and benefits package. I dont even want to try and get into China's financial system, but its becoming very clear that U.S employers love there system of Low pay, High volume or Low Priced Products. Sadly there are very few people in this world that actually care about things like Quality and actually Made in the USA badging. The days of owning something that was crafted with pride from a Worker and meant to last a lifetime has been Outsourced to a machine that can produce in numbers. I could care less about China... There government is making billions off there working class and Trillions off us. As Americans we are so screwed, We owe them Billions if not trillions and we also Make them Rich through are 10 for 1$ shopping prowlness.
China would have no problem designing a tool that is Comparable with Snap on, There is no doubt in my mind. And truthfully who says they dont already make some? I suppose there are alot of great tool companies out there that are much cheaper to own than snap on, but thats not the point. The point is there are people who care more about where a tool was built than How much it costs. Snap on tool prices are High, Yes.. but the service you get is first rate and until the recent changes in COO everyone though they were all USA. Evidently a few law suits have vs other tool manufacturers have forced there hand on stamping, disclosing etc... Who knows if the Dual 80's are entirely built here in the U.S? I have no idea but is rather discouraging not to see the stamp.
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Well, Mr. Antonio Klein must have my email in his recycle bin then.. cause I've still got no response.
But no worries.. if he and his pals are ready to take this 80+ year old company down the tubes.. I'm ok with that.. I've got other options from the EU and the USA still for tools that aren't made in China.. Dollar vote.
Snap on's Balance sheet is the envy of many a corporation..
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KENOSHA, Wis., October 29, 2009 (BUSINESS WIRE)--Snap-on Incorporated (NYSE: SNA), a leading global innovator, manufacturer and marketer of tools, diagnostics, equipment, software and service solutions for professional users, today announced operating results for the third quarter of 2009. Sales of $581.8 million declined 16.6% compared to a year ago; foreign currency translation contributed 3.0 percentage points of the sales decline.
Gross profit of $260.5 million represented 44.8% of sales compared to 44.7% a year ago, with Rapid Continuous Improvement (RCI) offsetting the impact of lower production volume and capacity carrying costs.
Operating earnings of $48.7 million include $4.7 million of restructuring costs and a loss of $5.3 million from Financial Services due to the July 16, 2009 termination of the financial services joint venture with The CIT Group, Inc. A year ago, operating earnings of $86.4 million included $1.4 million of restructuring costs and $4.8 million of income from Financial Services.
Cash flow from operations of $80.1 million increased from $21.8 million in the third quarter of 2008 primarily due to improved working capital management, principally as a result of an increased emphasis on inventory reduction.
Net earnings of $25.4 million declined $29.2 million from a year ago. The 2009 loss from Financial Services, when compared to the income earned in 2009, contributed $7.4 million of this decline. Higher after-tax interest expense and restructuring costs contributed another $6.4 million of the year-over-year net earnings decline
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This isn't a company that needs to cut costs.... not when they're gross margin's are in the 40's during the worse economy in 70 years!
Merkava_4
Banned
I just now fired off another question to Snap-on customer service. I asked them if the RKRF80 and RKRS80 ratchet service kits are made at their Elisabethton, TN facility. That should pretty much solve the mystery of this discussion when and if they answer back.
Were you being serious, or was that tongue in cheek? I'm just wondering..
Which part of my statement is untrue?
Similar situation with Proto. I have 3 of their new ratchets. Only 1 has USA on it. Also, quality is only so so.
How do you know if they give you an honest respond. They will probably tell you what you want to hear so you can get off their case.
Merkava_4
Banned
All I can do is take their word for it. I can't go barging into the Tennessee facility and start looking for ratchet parts being made.
I wouldnt call 3x profit growth in the last 5 years a bad thing regardless if there are union workers manufacturing tools or not. Snap on has no interest in being competitive with harbor freight tools or prices, There tools are destined to a specific genre Period. China didnt have to force its goods on us, We let them in the door and Greed has gotten us to the point we are at currently.
krusty the clown
Member Emeritus
seriously.......do you really think that lowering the standard of living in this country is the answer?
Sadly the answer to that question based on his response is YES.