Is outlet required in a bathroom

[dave67fd]

Older apartment we have owned and rented for many years and in great condition and have just sold. Bathroom has no outlet and was built that way. Inspector says we need an outlet installed.

I realize per code if it is a standard outlet it must be replaced with a GFCI but what are the requirements if "NO" outlet was there to begin with. Are we required to install one? If so I do realize it needs to be on it's own circuit.
State in question is Massachusettes.

Thanks

 

[sberry]

It is sold? What kind of inspector is this?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

What inspector?
A home inspector has no power to make you do anything.
Even a city inspector won't tag you for no outlet in a bathroom,unless the walls are opened up for other repairs the existing bathroom is grandfathered in.

 

[dave67fd]

Sold pending inspection. It is a Home inspector.

 

[Radix2]

Yes, definitely required by pretty much everyone...let the new owners put it in... just where they want it.

 

[CoogarXR]

Knock $500 off and tell them to fix it themselves.

 

[dave67fd]

Agreed, Wife just clarified the email from the Realtor that this was a "request" of items that be corrected from the buyer not the inspector. Told her to forget it as we came down on the price anyway.
Thanks all

 

[James-W]

It may not be a requirement but having at least one outlet in a bathroom is certainly a good idea. I mean, how does a woman dry her hair, or use her curling iron? Also, many guys have plug in electric shavers so how would they plug them in?

 

[Hilltopmasonry]

It may not be a requirement but having at least one outlet in a bathroom is certainly a good idea. I mean, how does a woman dry her hair, or use her curling iron? Also, many guys have plug in electric shavers so how would they plug them in?

We don’t have one in our 1950s house and it ***** big time. I can’t wait to remodel and fix it. I have to charge my toothbrush in my bedroom and the wife does her hair in the bedroom In front of the dresser instead of the bathroom


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[75gmck25]

Our 1940 house only had a light fixture over the sink with a 2-wire receptacle, which was useless for anything more than an electric shaver. My wife initially used one of my garage extension cords plugged into the bedroom next to the bath so that she could use her blow dryer in the bathroom.

When we added a bath ceiling fan/heater I ran 12/3 to the attic for a MWBC and broke it out to power the heater and the new GFCI receptacle.

Bruce

 

[bczygan]

Tell the buyers you'll knock $1.18 off the price and they can pick one up themselves.

Bill

 

[larry_g]

I'm perty sure that your not even 'required' to have electricity.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[ard]

Agreed, Wife just clarified the email from the Realtor that this was a "request" of items that be corrected from the buyer not the inspector. Told her to forget it as we came down on the price anyway.
Thanks all

If you want to play hardball, depending on the terms of the contingency, they may not be able to back out.

Clearly, the number of receptacles in the bathroom was not a secret- they made the offer knowing (or should have known) there wasnt a receptacle there.

Also, is this an apartment building or home? When was it built? Keep in mind that you are not required to continuously comply with building, plumbing, elect code as a building ages and codes change. It may well be that when the place was built there was no receptacle requirement. IF SO, the 'inspector' cannot tell you the bathroom is non-compliant. And the buyer cannot claim 'it failed inspection' if indeed that inspection is wrong.

I think it was around 1974 or so when they required an outlet in the bathroom

"we already came down" is OK. So is "while we appreciate the buyers concern, the bathroom was built and inspected in 1968, and was in compliance with the code at that time. The inspector is in fact in error, and we cannot consider a request for an upgrade to the current building codes"

 

[Lelandwelds]

If you want to play hardball, depending on the terms of the contingency, they may not be able to back out.

Clearly, the number of receptacles in the bathroom was not a secret- they made the offer knowing (or should have known) there wasnt a receptacle there.

Also, is this an apartment building or home? When was it built? Keep in mind that you are not required to continuously comply with building, plumbing, elect code as a building ages and codes change. It may well be that when the place was built there was no receptacle requirement. IF SO, the 'inspector' cannot tell you the bathroom is non-compliant. And the buyer cannot claim 'it failed inspection' if indeed that inspection is wrong.

I think it was around 1974 or so when they required an outlet in the bathroom

"we already came down" is OK. So is "while we appreciate the buyers concern, the bathroom was built and inspected in 1968, and was in compliance with the code at that time. The inspector is in fact in error, and we cannot consider a request for an upgrade to the current building codes"

+1 "This much and no further". I blame "flipping" tv shows.

 

[James-W]

I guess I look at things from a different perspective than other people do. Let me give you my take on this.

If I were to sell our house, not sure of the current value but I would guess it to be worth somewhere around $150K to $160K, and someone wanted an outlet in the bathroom, to clinch the deal I would have an outlet installed right away. I really don't consider that to be an outrageous request and after all, I do want to sell the house and I have a person who wants to buy it standing right in front of me. All he wants is an electrical outlet installed in the bathroom and he will sign the papers and the house is sold.

So I go ahead and have the outlet installed. It costs me a few hundred dollars but I sold the house and I will be getting a check for a sizable chunk of change. Is a few hundred dollars worth losing the sale over? The property taxes alone on our house are about $300 per month, so if my refusal to install an outlet causes the sale to be postponed for a few months until another buyer comes along, it will end up costing me a lot more money than having the outlet installed in the first place.

I am sure other members here will disagree with me on this issue, but that is the way I look at it.

 

[Stuff]

This could be a Pandora's Box. In an older apartment (condo?) it is probably not going to be a few hundred. Opening up walls to get an electrical cable back to the panel is not usually that cheap as no attic or basement. Add in the cost to fix the plaster and paint. Then might force an upgrade of panel to accept AFCI breakers so add even more money.

More than likely bathroom was build using a light fixture that had a built-in two prong receptacle. Then someone replaced fixture with modern one that didn't have the outlet.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

This could be a Pandora's Box. In an older apartment (condo?) it is probably not going to be a few hundred. Opening up walls to get an electrical cable back to the panel is not usually that cheap as no attic or basement. Add in the cost to fix the plaster and paint. Then might force an upgrade of panel to accept AFCI breakers so add even more money.

More than likely bathroom was build using a light fixture that had a built-in two prong receptacle. Then someone replaced fixture with modern one that didn't have the outlet.

Yep,once you start opening walls to feed a new circuit up there to feed it you're opening yourself to anything else the city wants you to do while you're in there.
Like hard wired smoke/carbon monoxide detectors or anything else they want.
A month and several thousand dollars later you might be ready to close things up.

 

[matt_i]

Everything is negotiable when trying to pave the way for real estate contracts to flow.

One has to look at how demanding the buyer is, what type of market, is their financing rock solid, etc, before trying to play hardball or not.

If they are going to be done at all, I usually tend to try to knock off the items that are easy for me to do, and concede money on the others. If its an issue that would be present for any buyer (e.g. roof leak) then I'd probably do the repair/pay to have repair done, no matter what.

 

[reader2580]

It appears that 210.52(D) of the NEC requires an outlet in a bathroom. However, the bathroom need only comply with the code at time the bathroom was built or remodeled. NEC probably did not require one back then.

Practically speaking, most people would want an outlet in a bathroom, but there is likely no code violation.

 

[electroman187]

If I had a buyer on the hook, I'd install that outlet in heartbeat if the sale was potentially at risk. The cost is a lot less than losing the buyer and then lowering the price another $5k.

The purpose of the required GFCI outlet within 3 feet of a basin is more for safety than it is for convenience. If it weren't required, people would be running extension cords to non-GFCI outlets and inadvertently jolting themselves.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

I guess I look at things from a different perspective than other people do. Let me give you my take on this.

If I were to sell our house, not sure of the current value but I would guess it to be worth somewhere around $150K to $160K, and someone wanted an outlet in the bathroom, to clinch the deal I would have an outlet installed right away. I really don't consider that to be an outrageous request and after all, I do want to sell the house and I have a person who wants to buy it standing right in front of me. All he wants is an electrical outlet installed in the bathroom and he will sign the papers and the house is sold.

So I go ahead and have the outlet installed. It costs me a few hundred dollars but I sold the house and I will be getting a check for a sizable chunk of change. Is a few hundred dollars worth losing the sale over? The property taxes alone on our house are about $300 per month, so if my refusal to install an outlet causes the sale to be postponed for a few months until another buyer comes along, it will end up costing me a lot more money than having the outlet installed in the first place.

I am sure other members here will disagree with me on this issue, but that is the way I look at it.

If I had a buyer on the hook, I'd install that outlet in heartbeat if the sale was potentially at risk. The cost is a lot less than losing the buyer and then lowering the price another $5k.

The purpose of the required GFCI outlet within 3 feet of a basin is more for safety than it is for convenience. If it weren't required, people would be running extension cords to non-GFCI outlets and inadvertently jolting themselves.

Me too. I installed 2 GFCIs (kitchen and bathroom) when I sold my first house. The realtor (who is a friend of mine) said that a lot of sales didn't happen because sellers wouldn't do things like that. She was even more surprised that it took less than an hour and cost me less than $20.

 

[engineer2]

Around here current code requires a dedicated 20 amp GCFI bathroom outlet. Of course, older homes would be grandfathered in, but new buyers ask for things to be current.

I had to update my elderly parent's kitchen to A-B GFCI outlets to make the sale go through. Got an IBEW relative to do it for $100. Easy in our area because everything is EMT. I would have done it myself, but I didn't need the question "Who did the work?"

 

[sberry]

I understand doing it prior as an incentive or to shove off discounts that now come with "home inpections". But this was in retrospect to chisel some from an agreement ********.

 

[Ji m]

If you substantially remodel your bathroom,
you must install a GFCI receptacle.

If you sell your old house, with it's old (but up to code at the time it was built) bathroom they can install their own outlet if they choose to.

Look at it this way,
you lived there for how many years without an outlet?

Why would you want to install one now for someone else to enjoy?

It's funny,
when you sell a house they try to put you through the ringer with "add this", "change that" and "include this other thing",

but when you're buying one the same agents treat you like they should charge extra for the oxygen in the house.

I would think about adding an outlet if the were "asking" for one,
but if they're telling you it's required I would just laugh and say no.

 

[ard]

but new buyers ask for things to be current.

So if the current code requires R45 insulation in the attic, and you only have R30, should you insulate the attics as part of a sale?

Would you say this is a reasonable request?

Should the buyer be able to cancel the sale because you wont upgrade the insulation?

How about upgrades to R-values in windows, based on 2017 building codes?

 

[rburke65]

No need to install an outlet. Request is declined!

 

[mm08822]

Nothing wrong with asking b/c if you don't, the answer will surely be No.

It's all about negotiation and how motivated each the seller and buyer is. I'd rather chase several small items than get squeezed into some big ticket items.

Carrying the house for another month or 2 can be $$.

 

[Autonomous]

So if the current code requires R45 insulation in the attic, and you only have R30, should you insulate the attics as part of a sale?

Would you say this is a reasonable request?

Should the buyer be able to cancel the sale because you wont upgrade the insulation?

How about upgrades to R-values in windows, based on 2017 building codes?

New building should meet new code. Old buildings will depend on where you live.

Installing a GFCI outlet should take $3 for an "old construction" double gang box, $10 for the outlet, $5 for the new wall plate, 30 minutes on YouTube and 30 minutes of actual work.
Seems like a bad idea to sour a sale over $18 and one hour of time.

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[yeldogt]

How many other items on the list ??? Is this part of the typical post home inspection seller shakedown list?

It the trend now is to negotiate price and then do another round after the home inspection -- 20 years ago you did them prior. Most of the home inspectors are not very good and point out obviously items that should have been noticed. Unfortunately, the back have basically made them mandatory.

The only ones that have to be addressed are the FHA and VA .. because some of the loans will not be approved unless the inspection is satisfied

 

[engineer2]

Would you say this is a reasonable request?

No. Buyers ask for unreasonable things all the time because they think pointing out flaws gives them the upper hand in negotiations. Take it as is, have it done yourself, or I can add $5000 to the selling price to take care of it.

 

[APEowner]

New building should meet new code. Old buildings will depend on where you live.

Installing a GFCI outlet should take $3 for an "old construction" double gang box, $10 for the outlet, $5 for the new wall plate, 30 minutes on YouTube and 30 minutes of actual work.
Seems like a bad idea to sour a sale over $18 and one hour of time.

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This estimate assumes that there's an easy way to get power to the box. In and old house that may not be the case. Actually, in a new house that may not be the case.

 

[MoonRise]

New building should meet new code. Old buildings will depend on where you live.

Installing a GFCI outlet should take $3 for an "old construction" double gang box, $10 for the outlet, $5 for the new wall plate, 30 minutes on YouTube and 30 minutes of actual work.
Seems like a bad idea to sour a sale over $18 and one hour of time.

Not always so simple and straightforward though.

Doing electrical work? That usually means that you need to get an electrical permit. Submit plans and permit fee. Doing the electrical work in the bathroom often triggers the building inspector(s) to then require updating various other items up to current Code requirements.

Like at a least, requiring you to run a separate dedicated 20 amp circuit back to the electrical panel. No room in your panel for this new circuit? Oh, that means a new panel. Oh, you are replacing the electrical panel, that means you have to replace all the breakers in there with AFCI breakers. Oh, your panel was upgraded and the incoming wire feeder is no longer adequate. Replace that, meaning the POCO has to come and shut off power to the house and the drop to the house gets replaced. Etc, etc, etc.

So your $18 and one hour 'project' turns into a several thousand dollar multi-week project with multiple inspections.

As to the OP and being 'required', it all depends on what the Code requirements were at the time the dwelling was built. If it 'was' OK when built, then it (almost always, but not 100% always) is still Ok now.

YMMV and all that.

 

[ard]

Punch some EMT down from the attic, surface mount a 4x4 with a single gang GFCI.

Done!

 

[reader2580]

New building should meet new code. Old buildings will depend on where you live.

Installing a GFCI outlet should take $3 for an "old construction" double gang box, $10 for the outlet, $5 for the new wall plate, 30 minutes on YouTube and 30 minutes of actual work.
Seems like a bad idea to sour a sale over $18 and one hour of time.

This wouldn’t be code legal without a separate 20 amp circuit. 2014 or 2017 code would also require arc fault protection.

Some buyers insist only a licensed electrician fix things.

 

[four.cycle]

easy peasy!

 

[mm08822]

Punch some EMT down from the attic, surface mount a 4x4 with a single gang GFCI.

Done!

And crooked too.

 

[Ji m]

This wouldn’t be code legal without a separate 20 amp circuit. 2014 or 2017 code would also require arc fault protection.

Some buyers insist only a licensed electrician fix things.

^
^
^
^
This!

20 amp home run that can only be on with another bathroom outlet, but nothing else.

You can't just run a line from any other location.

So,
no outlet at all (in an old bathroom) = within code

15a or 20a outlet jumped off a nearby circuit (work connected today) = not within code/fail.

 

[Ji m]

And crooked too.

dont forget to run CATV next to it,
cutting across the outside of the house at a 45 degree angle.

 

[Ji m]

Sold pending inspection. It is a Home inspector.

FWIW,
the ultimate authority on this is the Electrical Inspector.

As long the house met code when it was built,
and you haven't done any work without pulling permits,
you have nothing to fear from calling the REAL electrical inspector in that city/town and asking them what is required.

Then give the inspectors name to the HOME inspector in case he has any more questions.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

FWIW,
the ultimate authority on this is the Electrical Inspector.

As long the house met code when it was built,
and you haven't done any work without pulling permits,
you have nothing to fear from calling the REAL electrical inspector in that city/town and asking them what is required.

Then give the inspectors name to the HOME inspector in case he has any more questions.