Eaton CH Panel Major Fire Hazard

[n20junkie]

So my house has an Eaton CH, and I was under the belief that they were a higher quality panel with a lifetime warranty on the buss bar. my house has 2 Eaton CH panels, so I purchased 3rd 42 slot for my garage.

I installed the panel in the fall, and have just a few breakers in the panel. I was looking at some wiring and noticed a flaw in a lug. looked like the copper was hard when bending occurred and it caused a crack in the lug. Then I noticed ALL the lugs were cracked. Most lugs had multiple cracks, and all in the same place.

I called Eaton, they asked for pictures. I sent pictures then they wanted a picture of the panel sticker. I sent that. Then I get this in return:

"Hi ______,

This happens to be a CH type load center NEMA 1 , referring to the image below, I am not sure how these cuts coming up, hope the breakers installed were correct part numbers, also would like to understand the question you are referring to in the last mail."


Instantly blaming me for something that is clearly their issue! The only breakers installed were the ones that came in the box, along with an additional 3. All the slots that are open NEVER had a breaker installed on them.

If you purchased an Eaton CH panel recently, go check your lugs for cracking.

 

[purplezr2]

I'm not seeing the issue, are you concerned with the cracking edge on the copper parts from being formed?

Whats will all the orange wire?

 

[n20junkie]

Yup, those cracks come from both sides and remove half the conductors electrical path. Heat cycling will only cause further cracking with almost certain detachment of the lug.

If you look, the center of the folded 2 halves is also cracked already. The copper was way too hard when it was folded.

Orange wire is 30 amp wire for 220v machines like mills, lathes, small welders. I do a lot of metal work and running wire when you want to move a machine *****. So down both walls is a 110 or 220 every 4 feet alternating.

 

[sberry]

Well, since they asked for a reply tell them that the only breakers you used are ones that come with it. I got to agree, that looks bad.

 

[n20junkie]

I replied and called as well. This isn't an isolated incident, and their reply back is not what a maker of equipment that can build homes downshould reply with. Obviously an engineer didn't look at the sent images, or instantly the problem wold have been recognized instantly.

Just goes to show, if you see a problem, you have to be persistent with modern manufacturers to get resolution.

 

[mm08822]

The areas you are referring to are buss stabs not lugs.

Those fractures are definitely an issue now and will only become a fire hazard as further fracturing occurs at each stab.
They want the panel sticker for the production lot code. If there are any inked on/sticker codes in the back box include them also.
Get the part numbers of all additional breakers you have used and those sold with the panel package. Get the part number of the panel package, even if it means going back to the store to snap a pic.

If Eaton wont make good on it (soon), I would buy another (check it) and swap out the panel interior before using that panel any further. Hoping you originally purchased the panel from a big box store. Return the old POS to the store.

If EATON doesn't start being more proactive in this resolution, just tell them you are providing all of this information to the CPSC and instigate a recall.

Document everything - names, dates, pics, emails, phone calls, etc.

CPCS would probably be a little more responsive after them dropping the ball on FPE panels in the 80's.

 

[n20junkie]

That was the reply I received after sending them the picture of the box and it’s label with the panel PN. Pretty mich zero help from that person besides him “hoping I used the proper breakers”.

After leaving a rather assertive voice mail with the tech department, Rick called me from Eaton and seems very helpful unlike the last individual. He seems to understand the issue and the severity of the problem.

As most know, once a panel is in, that sucker is not coming out. I did get it from HD so the buy and buss swap crossed my mind. But I figured I would be a good guy, alert a manufacturer of a major safety issue and just get a new set of busses sent out to replace these. Hell I would even send these back so QC can see what went wrong.

This is the type of stuff that ruins a companies reputation when houses start burning down en mass. I was trying to help and first hit with nothing but accusations.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wow!

No words!!

 

[rlitman]

...This is the type of stuff that ruins a companies reputation when houses start burning down en mass. I was trying to help and first hit with nothing but accusations.

It is, though I suspect that we're talking about a small batch of failures. Enough that they may just prefer to let their insurance cover it.

Anyway, tech support is not PR or engineering, and I feel your pain in finding someone qualified on the first try. It hardly ever happens.

 

[mm08822]

This is the type of stuff that ruins a companies reputation when houses start burning down en mass.

I would be the good Samaritan here and report it to CPSC anyway. This should kick off a formal investigation and resolution of the problem. It is wrong for a $15/hr customer service rep to make life threatening decisions for the public and a corporation.

If this is formally addressed, then there is a much better chance for proper action.

Biggest question I have is: Where was the QC control for product release?

 

[rlitman]

I would be the good Samaritan here and report it to CPSC anyway. This should kick off a formal investigation and resolution of the problem. It is wrong for a $15/hr customer service rep to make life threatening decisions for the public and a corporation.

If this is formally addressed, then there is a much better chance for proper action.

Biggest question I have is: Where was the QC control for product release?

I don't think that CPSC would investigate this. They would file it as a report, and until some houses actually burn down, or at least a few dozen more reports are filed, it will probably go nowhere. Still, it is worth filing it.

Where was QC indeed!

 

[walta]

I just had a look at my CH panel it looks the same as n20junkie panel.

My panel was installed about a year ago.

Will someone with an older panel have a look?

While it is not pretty there is a lot of copper left intact, this maybe normal and time tested assembly.


Walta

 

[Norcal]

I seriously doubt it will cause a fire but it's piss poor QC. If I were to complain to any organization it would be to UL, they listed it, but they listed Zinsco/Sylvania also.

 

[exranger06]

This my Eaton CH subpanel that's about 2 years old:

I also have a Cutler Hammer CH main panel. My house was built in 1979 and I assume this is the original panel. It's pretty full, but I removed a breaker to snap this pic:

Both panels look fine with no cracks.

 

[reader2580]

I seriously doubt it will cause a fire but it's piss poor QC. If I were to complain to any organization it would be to UL, they listed it, but they listed Zinsco/Sylvania also.

Presumably UL got panels for testing that didn't have cracks.

There are folks here who think CH panels are great, but they like to call BR panels Zinsco II.

 

[Norcal]

Presumably UL got panels for testing that didn't have cracks.

There are folks here who think CH panels are great, but they like to call BR panels Zinsco II.

That would be me, the BR is the bottom of the heap & does have Zinsco heritage.

 

[checkthisout]

Understandable that one would want all the panels on a property to match but meh.....


Return it for a refund and get the Square D Homeline. Cheap and reliable!

 

[lmalcomb]

Will have check My shop.

 

[n20junkie]

Latest email:

from Rick:
“Grant I got this response back from our Quality Engineer this morning:
this cracking does happen during the forming process. We have made improvements since this particular one was built back in 2016.

The newer tooling does a better job but there is still some minor cracking. What I see in this picture would not deter from the performance of the bus stab

Rick Scronce | EatonCare Distribution and Control Solutions | Technical Support Engineer
Eaton | 175 Vista Blvd | Arden, NC 28704 | 877-386-2273 Opt 2 Opt 2 | [email protected]



So. According to the piss poor engineering, this is ok. Hopefully if someone down the road has a house burn down over this, they find this thread and have evidence for the court case.

 

[kwschumm]

Latest email:

from Rick:
“Grant I got this response back from our Quality Engineer this morning:
this cracking does happen during the forming process. We have made improvements since this particular one was built back in 2016.

The newer tooling does a better job but there is still some minor cracking. What I see in this picture would not deter from the performance of the bus stab

Rick Scronce | EatonCare Distribution and Control Solutions | Technical Support Engineer
Eaton | 175 Vista Blvd | Arden, NC 28704 | 877-386-2273 Opt 2 Opt 2 | [email protected]



So. According to the piss poor engineering, this is ok. Hopefully if someone down the road has a house burn down over this, they find this thread and have evidence for the court case.

It would be interesting on a couple of these stabs to monitor the temperature and see. Being hidden in use makes it a bit more difficult.

 

[n20junkie]

I requested a replacement buss regardless of the opinion. I also submitted pictures to UL with the explanation. I highly doubt the submitted sample was cracked like this.

 

[Norcal]

While I still stand by my opinion that that panel is not going to cause a fire, getting the panel or the interior replaced is best. Going to UL over the CPSC is best as more likely to see some satisfaction then the CPSC.

P**s poor quality control is evident in the photos.

 

[mm08822]

I requested a replacement buss regardless of the opinion. I also submitted pictures to UL with the explanation. I highly doubt the submitted sample was cracked like this.

You can just as easily submit to CPSC online. Someone has to start the reports. Maybe yours is the first or others are before yours. Plenty of pics posted here to go along with your submitted pics.

Something is really wrong.....how does EATON go from a reasonably formed, fracture-free stab used for years, to a POS and then to something just better than the POS?"

 

[mm08822]

While I still stand by my opinion that that panel is not going to cause a fire, getting the panel or the interior replaced is best. Going to UL over the CPSC is best as more likely to see some satisfaction then the CPSC.

P**s poor quality control is evident in the photos.

Would you really plug a 60A or 100a cb onto those stabs and then sleep well?
What if someone was running a big a$$ electric heater in the dead of winter? There would be a lot of thermal stress created.

 

[teamextreme]

Considering the amount of metal left even after the cracking, I'm not sure I'd be terribly concerned. What's the max branch circuit size, 100A? I have to believe the amount of metal bus remaining can easily support 100A. What would concern me more would be fatiguing and further cracking if breakers are removed and installed frequently, which isn't normally the case.

 

[n20junkie]

The cracking is a sign of bigger issues with the metal. Just because the crack visually ends, almost always means it continues much further. The copper wasn't properly annealed before the stabs were formed. It's like a cracked windshield. A small crack today is one bump away from a huge crack. Dealing with cracks is literally my day job as an aircraft mechanic. Huge books are written about major accidents resulting from poor heat treating.

I kicked and screamed enough it seems. They said they will mail out a new interior.

 

[mm08822]

Considering the amount of metal left even after the cracking, I'm not sure I'd be terribly concerned. What's the max branch circuit size, 100A? I have to believe the amount of metal bus remaining can easily support 100A. What would concern me more would be fatiguing and further cracking if breakers are removed and installed frequently, which isn't normally the case.

100A was the largest I found w/o pulling cut sheets. Although highly unlikely, that stab could have two 100A cb's attached to it. Thermal stress = further fatigue.

 

[Norcal]

The cracking is a sign of bigger issues with the metal. Just because the crack visually ends, almost always means it continues much further. The copper wasn't properly annealed before the stabs were formed. It's like a cracked windshield. A small crack today is one bump away from a huge crack. Dealing with cracks is literally my day job as an aircraft mechanic. Huge books are written about major accidents resulting from poor heat treating.

I kicked and screamed enough it seems. They said they will mail out a new interior.

Good to hear while there was more drama then there should have been, replacing the interior is the only option. I still like the type CH panels but there are those who say "CH" stands for cheap and handy, the BR series are marketed as "engineered value" which is a another word for cheap, seems like the cost cutting is filtering down to other product lines.

 

[nsula_country]

I'm an Eaton panel board fan. At my day job I prefer Allen-Bradley all day. I have Eaton CH panels in rentals, our house, and our shop. The shop panel is the newest (2015 or 2016). I will check mine. I think I would have noticed cracks if they were present though.

A replacement buss was the ONLY correct response received from Eaton.

CT

 

[Skiff Builder]

Thks for posting. Going to check out friends who just installed one.

 

[TomC750]

Off the CH subject a bit, I have a BR in my shop. what is the downside or potential for failure?

 

[rhastings80]

I just checked one of my 3 panels. I put in a 200 amp main Eaton CH panel-board in 2016 and two 125 amp sub panels in 2017. I just checked one sub-panel and its has the same cracking on the bus bar. I'm not pleased as I bought these as they are suppose to be a premium brand / model but I guess I should of just bough the Square-D Home-line or some other cheap brand.

 

[n20junkie]

I am talking to both Rick and this other guy from tech center. Rick says they will send a new set of internals, the other douch says that the parts are not user replaceable and only a swap with HD will do.

Someone is lying. Being that it takes a whole 2 1/4 screw to remove the entire center buss and breaker, I assume Rick isn't the lier. I completly don't trust the indian call center guy. He sounds like one of those nigerian scammers when the emails.


“Hi Grant,

The problem in this panel is that its main busbar is having the issue, and unfortunately the main busbar is not offered as a renewable part for the load center. If it would have been a renewable part which we could have offered, we would have shipped the same to the field, but in this case the whole main busbar need to be replaced which is only possible in the factory, we request you to please replace the whole unit and get a new one in place of it.

We regret for the inconvenience caused.

Thanks & Regards,
Aditya Awasthi | EatonCare Distribution and Control Solutions | Technical Support Engineer
Eaton | 175 Vista Blvd |”


Email chain from Rick:


“Grant give me your mailing address and the plant will send you a new interior.



Rick Scronce | EatonCare Distribution and Control Solutions | Technical Support Engineer
Eaton | 175 Vista Blvd | Arden, NC 28704 | 877-386-2273 Opt 2 Opt 2 | [email protected]
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Description: cid:[email protected]: cid:[email protected]

From: Grant
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2018 2:17 PM
To: TRC, Technical Resource Center
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Attn: Rick

Rick,
I am not comfortable with the level of cracking on these. Thermal cycling will only cause further crack propagation with possible serious-dire consequences. I have machinery that will be connected to this load center and will be using its maximum capacity. It isn’t a box that will be used solely for 15-20 amp breakers.
Is there any way to get a set of replacement busses sent to me somehow? If not, is there an elevated level of authority that can authorize?

Grant

On Mar 29, 2018, at 12:01 PM, TRC, Technical Resource Center <[email protected]> wrote:

Grant I got this response back from our Quality Engineer this morning:


this cracking does happen during the forming process. We have made improvements since this particular one was built back in 2016.

The newer tooling does a better job but there is still some minor cracking. What I see in this picture would not deter from the performance of the bus stab

 

[ard]

Unless you want to burn bridges with these guys, delete their direct contact info. Add [PM for contact info if needed] if you think members here might need it.

Just a suggestion.

Agree that without SIGNIFICANT metallurgy studies, analysis and testing, it is impossible to decide that those cracks are stable and will remain stable for 50 years. It seems you realize this from your aircraft work....

 

[LXCam]

Well it's a damn good thing this panel will never fly.

Btw, both responses you got from the factory support guys are correct. The India guy is spot on but you're not listening to what he is saying. That part in its self is not something that is field serviceable. Since both Phases are factory assembled along with the insulated bracketry that is most likely riveted together, you can't just replace the individual buss. Fortunately the other guy has enough sense to just send you a new interior.

Now I'm wondering just how many interiors dude B will need to examine to find you one that you'll accept.

 

[finn]

Has anyone actually ever had a real problem with this panel, or had first hand ever seen a failure?

The cracks look intimidating to a layman, but the cross section is still pretty beefy, and the thermal stress theory is a real stretch.

Does anyone who commented have any credentials qualifying them to pass judgement on these parts, or is this a case of “ it looks bad to my untrained eye, so it must be a disaster waiting to happen”?

Just asking.

I have no opinion myself, as I have no information as to the temperature profile in actual use , and mechanical loads the part sees when installing or removing breakers, or when an earthquake shakes the house.

 

[PLOWJEEP]

I used Cutler Hammer CH equipment when I built my home in 2002. The local supply house sold this and Seimans. The CH line appeared to be much nicer quality. The BR and the Seimans looked similar. I would be interested to know if the catalog number on this panel and one that you would buy at a supply house are the same.
The fact that Eaton chose to compete in the big box store market place throws up a red flag. These manufactures normally make a less expensive product to compete at the Home Depot price point. Some of them even have a different customer service for the products sold at a big box store, which might explain the response from the first person that you spoke with. I wish you luck with this, Brian

 

[rhastings80]

I checked both of my sub-panels and they both have the cracks on the bus bar. The part number on both is ch24l125cp

 

[finn]

I checked both of my sub-panels and they both have the cracks on the bus bar. The part number on both is ch24l125cp

Has your house burned down yet?

These guys will probably suggest you sleep in a motel tonight, just to be safe.

 

[n20junkie]

Has anyone actually ever had a real problem with this panel, or had first hand ever seen a failure?

The cracks look intimidating to a layman, but the cross section is still pretty beefy, and the thermal stress theory is a real stretch.

Does anyone who commented have any credentials qualifying them to pass judgement on these parts, or is this a case of “ it looks bad to my untrained eye, so it must be a disaster waiting to happen”?

Just asking.

I have no opinion myself, as I have no information as to the temperature profile in actual use , and mechanical loads the part sees when installing or removing breakers, or when an earthquake shakes the house.

Do you honestly believe the panel UL tested and certified had this cracking issue?

I have an extensive background in metallurgy. Both educationally as well as practically. These cracks are a symptom of a much bigger issues IMHO.



This batch of panels was enough of an issue that the manufacturer changed their process to fix it. So it is far beyond cosmetic. This problem seems like it happened only for a short period of production because they used to be flawless and they have since corrected it. Being these panels are 2 years old we have no information yet. But we go through all these hoops to prevent fires, yet install a flawed load center?

Small gauge single strand aluminum wire was just fine for a while. Right up until it wasn’t fine.