Is Harbor Freight getting too big for its britches?

[Sal Bandini]

we have a 2011 Sorrento 4 cyl with 150k + on it, has none of the issues you pointed out. it's holding up quite well.

The plural of anecdote is not data.

 

[jkesselr]

Did we not fill the Harbor Freight quality/price/tool truck comparison/lawsuit thread quota this week?

I thought we had.

Thanks OP for picking up the slack. Almost went a full 6 hours.

Thanks for adding something useful... If you actually read the OP instead of bumpin' your gums, you'd see that it was seeking discussion on business practices, not bitching about quality or price in and of itself. Nobody said the price wasn't still affordable, but hey, you do you, and keep adding worthless **** to threads for no apparent reason.

 

[6PTsocket]

I think many people are greatly bothered that harbor freight even worked their way out of stage one.

Maybe Chucky Homier's daughter will get back in the tool businesses start under cutting them.


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Wasn't Homier the compsny that showed up with a trailer truck full of stuff and sold out of the local armory or VFW hall for a few days? What happened to them? HF put them out of business ? As I recall, it was similar stuff.

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[thooks]

Harbor Freight did NOT kill Craftsman/Sears. HF simply has taken advantage of a company run in the ground by idiots.

 

[zendriver]

Wasn't Homier the compsny that showed up with a trailer truck full of stuff and sold out of the local armory or VFW hall for a few days? What happened to them? HF put them out of business ? As I recall, it was similar stuff.

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They did the tool shows, but eventually opened a retail store in his hometown Huntington, IN, selling the "Speedway" tools, that were "ok" but inexpensive, like old-school HF. I still have an air compressor, that is pretty good.

They also sold small Chinese tractors, little excavators and fork lifts. It was funny to see them setting outside for so long they were rusting. A few people purchased them, I guess they were all right.

He had a good size "world headquarters" as well and spend $1 million or so upgrading the local youth league (renamed after himself)

I just remembered he also had Homier Distributing Company (HCD) that also were a tool brand, as well as other import ventures, that was grossing $38 million a year or so.

http://www.buzzfile.com/business/H-D-C-260-356-9477

I don't know If HF had much direct effect on his operations. more so,It almost seemed like the store had just been "losing steam" (even though it was not that hot in the first place), be cause they just had a lot of **** and half opened cartons laying, the store was dirty and the people didn't care about ****.

Don't remember for for sure, but maybe he had health problems, last I heard, he was out of it all and the daughter sells imported clothing at the old store location.

For all practical purpose, Chuck was a success story in the world of Chinese import. IMO.

 

[kythri]

I think many people are greatly bothered that harbor freight even worked their way out of stage one.

You ain't kidding. The frothing-at-the-mouth HF hatred is quite amusing.

 

[jkesselr]

I guess I missed this frothing...

 

[Farmall450]

I dont use a ton of HF tools, but I like that they're stepping their game up. They've been going through and revamping each type of tool, and so far I like it. Except for the new power tools, I think youd have to be a fool to buy any of their cordless stuff.

The only thing that kills me, they've been doing a makeover to practically everything they sell, except for screwdrivers, sockets, and wrenches. I dont get it. Youd think that would be the first thing they'd update, as those are the bread and butter tools. Hopefully something is in the works.

I dont use their tools professionally, I'm a snap on guy, but I do use some of their stuff at home.

Agreed on the new cordless tools, at those prices you'd be a fool not to get DeWalt/Milwaukee and have more than 3 tools available.

 

[NitroGarage]

I did a quick analysis on the Hercules hex impact vs the m18 brushless (not fuel) hex impact. The whole setup on amazon with a 5ah battery and charger all purchased separately vs the kit from HF was something like $25 more for the Milwaukee. Similar for Dewalt.

That isn't a value to me.

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[Coach James]

Craftsman tools never even came close to tool truck prices

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I thought the same thing. 1/4-7/8 set of combo wrenches for $39, on sale for $29. That's what I paid for a couple of the last USA made sets and not even on the same planet as truck prices.

Coach

 

[kythri]

Craftsman (Sears) problem was the price stayed the same and quality went down, HF quality is going up.

As is the price.

As inflation increases, one of those things is invariably going to happen - Craftsman took the route of outsourcing rather than raising prices.

The overall perception is that quality ended up taking a hit, which didn't help Craftsman, but I'm sure that if they had raised prices and maintained, brand perception would have still diminished with the haters.

Overall, though, Craftsman quality or price was not the reason Sears tanked. Sears problems were far greater than price or COO of the Craftsman line.

 

[yamaha0343]

Harbor Freight did NOT kill Craftsman/Sears. HF simply has taken advantage of a company run in the ground by idiots.

Agreed. When Sears was a formidable company, tools were but a small part of it. That’s not how they got rich. They got rich from being the place where you could buy a wrench, a refrigerator, a shotgun, a pack of fruit of the looms, a tv, a mower, and a bbq put in a single visit. Then Walmart/Lowe’s/Home Depot showed up. HF was but a pimple on the (at one time very large) *** of Sears.

 

[davo727]

HF owner has to pay for that 100 million dollar painting somehow.

 

[kythri]

Given that the supposed artwork purchase was a decade ago, I'm sure it's been paid off a few times already.

 

[Jim c]

I have purchased my fair share of hf some of which went straight in to the garbage, and I feel like I am speaking with a group of recovering aa members aka hf members. Some of the stuff actually works, air conditioning gauges ( they are a steal with coupon 55.00) and the ac vacc gets the job done too ( only 10) . But those combination wrenches are like buying a pair of shoes made in China; you never know what size they really are until you get them home and try them out ( works about the same for wrenches as it does for shoes). Gigantic crescent wrench is a steal for 22.00 until you use it to tap on something and the pin falls out of the adjuster ( just like everything else, it would be great, EXCEPT for:.......). A long as you have an arc welder you can put their tools back together and keep em working. It really is not hard to make an improvement from that very low, low starting point. I don’t think that sears was damaged by hf. Also, I don’t think that hf is quality enough to replace sears for most Americans. Heck, we could all do much better by purchasing channellocks from Walmart, then go to Napa for some impact sockets, pick up some sk sockets or go to northern tool to complete your purchase. Btw, northern tool, itself, is a pretty good competitor to fill the void that sears has left behind. Just my two cents worth.
P

 

[jdlong]

If I was doing this for a living, I would be shopping HF very little. Nor would I be bashing them. Their market is casual and serious DIY as far as I'm concerned and until they get a parts and service department, that ain't gonna change. And to think you're going to get a $400 torque wrench for $80 is a fairy tale. Yea, they've upped their game but more for the serious DIY guy it seems. That can be a **** shoot and like anything else, you have to be selective. I got the 3/8 drive earthquake cordless impact and ratchet for DIY and for the coupon prices and I am impressed. I've done several jobs with them and they have more than paid for themselves. When they break, I'll upgrade. I may be dead before that happens. Who knows.

The "HF beats Snap on" is just a bunch of hype as far as I'm concerned and for me, it helps get wife approval on tool purchases.

 

[ScottsGT]

They did the tool shows, but eventually opened a retail store in his hometown Huntington, IN, selling the "Speedway" tools, that were "ok" but inexpensive, like old-school HF. I still have an air compressor, that is pretty good.

They also sold small Chinese tractors, little excavators and fork lifts. It was funny to see them setting outside for so long they were rusting. A few people purchased them, I guess they were all right.

He had a good size "world headquarters" as well and spend $1 million or so upgrading the local youth league (renamed after himself)

I just remembered he also had Homier Distributing Company (HCD) that also were a tool brand, as well as other import ventures, that was grossing $38 million a year or so.

http://www.buzzfile.com/business/H-D-C-260-356-9477

I don't know If HF had much direct effect on his operations. more so,It almost seemed like the store had just been "losing steam" (even though it was not that hot in the first place), be cause they just had a lot of **** and half opened cartons laying, the store was dirty and the people didn't care about ****.

Don't remember for for sure, but maybe he had health problems, last I heard, he was out of it all and the daughter sells imported clothing at the old store location.

For all practical purpose, Chuck was a success story in the world of Chinese import. IMO.

Oh man, I remember those tool shows. I would go on a Sunday just to see all the guys that came Saturday showing back up to get refunds on the plug in tools that died before the show left town.

 

[Blind1]

The Pittsburgh professional screwdrivers have been around for years and are pretty good
miles ahead of any of the trash western forge butter blade craftsman or husky drivers that are double the cost. Never used them but the Taiwanese chromed pro sockets don't look too bad. I'd agree on the wrenches though.

Current and recent Taiwan tools (most manufacturers) have been “generally” excellent quality. Most of my working tools are Taiwan with a smattering of USA. Works for me.

 

[ocloc24]

The Pittsburgh professional screwdrivers have been around for years and are pretty good
miles ahead of any of the trash western forge butter blade craftsman or husky drivers that are double the cost. Never used them but the Taiwanese chromed pro sockets don't look too bad. I'd agree on the wrenches though.

The sockets aren't bad for sure, the ratchets are great for their price, but they could both use an update.

The wrenches are completely worthless for anything other than paperweights. And the screwdrivers are ok for a junkyard kit maybe but I wouldn't consider them "good" screwdrivers

 

[BDT/NWMN]

Think of Harbor Freight as the land of make believe..
For a few dollars, You buy an expensive looking tool and make believe You are in the big league.
The failed tools will make You believe You were dreaming about buying quality stuff.
Some of the tools will make You believe they are actually good.
Disney Land will send You home with a Mickey Mouse Stuffed animal after an enjoyable visit.
Mad Magazine is filled with stories and illustrations that will leave You in hysterical laughter.
Saturday Night Live puts an extra enjoyable twist in the entertainment world.
Harbor Freight can beat all the competition of the entertainment world with their comparison ads, low prices, free admission, free tape measures, customer lineup at the return counter, and tooloid displays. It would be fun to cruise around Harbor Freight in a Pirate Ship, but that is where Disney Land does have HF beat.

 

[Strouty]

Harbor Freight did NOT kill Craftsman/Sears. HF simply has taken advantage of a company run in the ground by idiots.

Yesterday I saw a huge display of craftsman tools/boxes at Lowes.

 

[zendriver]

Think of Harbor Freight as the land of make believe..
For a few dollars, You buy an expensive looking tool and make believe You are in the big league.
The failed tools will make You believe You were dreaming about buying quality stuff.
Some of the tools will make You believe they are actually good.
Disney Land will send You home with a Mickey Mouse Stuffed animal after an enjoyable visit.
Mad Magazine is filled with stories and illustrations that will leave You in hysterical laughter.
Saturday Night Live puts an extra enjoyable twist in the entertainment world.
Harbor Freight can beat all the competition of the entertainment world with their comparison ads, low prices, free admission, free tape measures, customer lineup at the return counter, and tooloid displays. It would be fun to cruise around Harbor Freight in a Pirate Ship, but that is where Disney Land does have HF beat.

Your words hurt, but I'll make myself feel better by taking a look at the balance of my my bank account, which is not too shabby (if I say so myself), since I buy most of my stuff from Harbor freight verses paying 3-10 times as much - for pretty much the same thing, from a tool truck, or other overpriced brand-name product source.

If There truly is a such thing as a "badge of courage", and you sir, have just presented one, one to everybody that shops at Harbor freight!


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[DadsTools]

What we are seeing with Harbor Freight is the natural cycle of retail business. Companies start out small with low overhead, low cost, low margins. Companies grow and expand. Overhead goes up, cost goes up, margins hopefully go up. This is not unique to Harbor Freight. This diagram from marketing 91.com gives a good illustration of the cycle of retail.
View media item 83165We have seen the big retail giants go through this cycle. Look at Sears and Montgomery Ward. You can even see Walmart progressing through this cycle. Powerhouse companies like Apple are also moving through this cycle. Anyone remember the Herter's company? Right now HF seems to be in Cycle 2 moving into Cycle 3. Walmart seems to be in Cycle 3 moving into Cycle 4. It's a natural progression. Companies have to invest and grow or they die. Unfortunately the outcome is fairly certain at some point.

Man, I DO remember Herters! Haven't heard that name in a long time. They were a front line for the Asian Invasion in sporting goods. There were trickles of imports in a lot of retail/mail order outlets, but Herter put it all under one roof and with lots of house branding, something like HF did. Still have some of their stuff, and a couple of catalogs laying around somewhere. Some of their sales pitches were a scream, not far removed from snake-oil pitches. Today's HF pitches pale in comparison. Mad Man Muntz school of selling, or the later Muntz-inspired Crazy Eddie pitches. But it was old-school, and it's time has passed.

BTW, Best Muntz pitch line ever IMO:
We buy 'em retail and sell 'em wholesale; we make up the difference in volume!

How I do miss the old days.

Thanks for bringing back that memory.

 

[ocloc24]

Your words hurt, but I'll make myself feel better by taking a look at the balance of my my bank account, which is not too shabby (if I say so myself), since I buy most of my stuff from Harbor freight verses paying 3-10 times as much - for pretty much the same thing, from a tool truck, or other overpriced brand-name product source.

If There truly is a such thing as a "badge of courage", and you sir, have just presented one, one to everybody that shops at Harbor freight!


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Lol "basically the same thing". I have no problem with harbor freight but you are are truly in make believe land if you dont think there's much difference between an Indian made pot metal wrench and a properly treated quality steel wrench from Sk/Proto/Snap On. Have fun with your rounded off fasteners and broken knuckles. I love it when someone who uses their tools an hour a week tries to tell people who do this for a living that they are all wasting their money because their $7 wrench set "basically does the same thing"

 

[ARFLY]

Man, I DO remember Herters! Haven't heard that name in a long time. They were a front line for the Asian Invasion in sporting goods. There were trickles of imports in a lot of retail/mail order outlets, but Herter put it all under one roof and with lots of house branding, something like HF did. Still have some of their stuff, and a couple of catalogs laying around somewhere. Some of their sales pitches were a scream, not far removed from snake-oil pitches. Today's HF pitches pale in comparison. Mad Man Muntz school of selling, or the later Muntz-inspired Crazy Eddie pitches. But it was old-school, and it's time has passed.

BTW, Best Muntz pitch line ever IMO:
We buy 'em retail and sell 'em wholesale; we make up the difference in volume!

How I do miss the old days.

Thanks for bringing back that memory.

That pitch line is awesome.

 

[zendriver]

Lol "basically the same thing". I have no problem with harbor freight but you are are truly in make believe land if you dont think there's much difference between an Indian made pot metal wrench and a properly treated quality steel wrench from Sk/Proto/Snap On. Have fun with your rounded off fasteners and broken knuckles. I love it when someone who uses their tools an hour a week tries to tell people who do this for a living that they are all wasting their money because their $7 wrench set "basically does the same thing"

In all honesty I have some snap on, some craftsman, thorsen, a few SK and some harbor freight. Over decades I have not really noticed one brand over the other performing better.

if I round off a nut just because it's stuck not because I used a particular tool since my snap on around them off just as easily.

Regarding a seven dollar wrench, judging quality simply by its price to sis not make sense.

Would it be a better wrench if they raise the price to $27?

 

[Jim c]

The free tape measures really are pretty good. Hf would be safe to claim that their free tape measure beats snap on tape measure for precise and accurate measurements!

 

[jdlong]

Think of Harbor Freight as the land of make believe..
For a few dollars, You buy an expensive looking tool and make believe You are in the big league.
The failed tools will make You believe You were dreaming about buying quality stuff.
Some of the tools will make You believe they are actually good.
Disney Land will send You home with a Mickey Mouse Stuffed animal after an enjoyable visit.

********. Disney land is spending $50,000 on production tools keep $2,000 beater cars on the road.

 

[Sugarfryz]

The sockets aren't bad for sure, the ratchets are great for their price, but they could both use an update.

The wrenches are completely worthless for anything other than paperweights. And the screwdrivers are ok for a junkyard kit maybe but I wouldn't consider them "good" screwdrivers

I disagree about the wrenches, I use mine daily at work with no issues. I’ve been nothing but surprised. I bought them as an upgrade from my craftsman which the open end was utterly useless. Rounded off everything. I put a cheater bar on my hf wrenches for alignments daily with no issue at all.

 

[anndel]

Wow!, the prices at Harbor freight are going up?

Shop much anywhere else? I paid $20 for a ****** screen door closer at a mom and pop hardware store and GF paid almost 8 dollars for a small "smoothie" at some lame-*** chain. She paid almost 5 dollars for a head of cauliflower at the grocery store!

Along with our "new Prosperity" and the helpful Tarrifs, we also get prices going up everywhere big time.

BTW harbor freight did not kill sears.

Sears killed Sears

At least Harbor freight, has something more to offer to go along with their price increases

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Here in Hawaii, prices and taxes go up but not the pay.

 

[xin]

CRAFTSMAN --- for the WIN!

 

[BDT/NWMN]

If I was doing this for a living, I would be shopping HF very little. Nor would I be bashing them. Their market is casual and serious DIY as far as I'm concerned and until they get a parts and service department, that ain't gonna change. And to think you're going to get a $400 torque wrench for $80 is a fairy tale. Yea, they've upped their game but more for the serious DIY guy it seems. That can be a **** shoot and like anything else, you have to be selective. I got the 3/8 drive earthquake cordless impact and ratchet for DIY and for the coupon prices and I am impressed. I've done several jobs with them and they have more than paid for themselves. When they break, I'll upgrade. I may be dead before that happens. Who knows.

The "HF beats Snap on" is just a bunch of hype as far as I'm concerned and for me, it helps get wife approval on tool purchases.

Show Her the ad with the Vulcan Welder and the ZW both hooked up to the same tubular three rail track. "Vulcan smokes Lionel Postwar ZW"

 

[BDT/NWMN]

With 850 stores, does Eric have to buy hinge oil by the barrel? I doubt I am the only one that will stop in just to pass some time and window shop.. Pretty hard to not find something that will be useful. I have made repeated purchases of their pneumatic 3" cutoff wheels, low cost impact sockets, and jack stands yep, for real. Pry bars have been ok, and have a couple sets of their magnetic based towing lights.

I enjoy going in there once or twice a year. The new tool boxes with extra depth are something I may consider for small parts storage; as I like the drawer configurations for that purpose. Who knows?

 

[Fender1325]

HF is stepping in to fill the void that craftsman left open now. Their pricing is fine. Competitive. Perhaps they realized it's more profitable to sell a product that will last somebody a few years rather than a few months and have to warranty it out over and over. I think they're doing just fine. I used to be embarrassed when I looked into my garage and half or more tools were HF. Now I don't mind really. They help me get a lot done that I otherwise would've forgone due to price. If it's something I end up doing often and enjoying, I upgrade to a higher quality American made product like welding for example.

 

[bubinga]

Well prices sure did go up that's for darn sure.

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[bubinga]

Well prices sure did go up that's for darn sure.

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And of course we all know less and less items qualities for the 20% off coupons.

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[Jim c]

I had not noticed the large price increases that are being discussed. But I have always felt that purchasing at hf was sort of “cost averaging”: you get everything at half price, but half of your purchase is junk and goes straight in the trash. So, the thought of hf raising their prices doesn’t seem to make sense? In order to make price increases work they would need to offer a somewhat better product. Seems like everyone figures out how to make the best out of their purchases as time passes. But this approach might not work so well when you are trying to make a living by using your tools to generate cash. You only have so much time available to you to complete a job, and above all else, you do not want that repair coming back in the shop again. You want to do it right, you want to do it fast and you want that job to help you to build your reputation among our customers so that they feel like when they come to your shop it is going to be done right. No questions. And so, under the conditions of a shop doing repairs, maybe spending a good bit more for your tools is not such a bad thing; you don’t have time to be messing around; you need to get that job done correctly and there is only one way to do it: with the best quality tools that you can afford that will get the job done correctly. We should make a master list of hf tools that might actually be worth getting. For the pro, I think that the list is gonna be pretty short from hf. Maybe the pro series Impacts? Maybe, but why not get sunex for a little more? And once you make a little cash why not step it up to matco?

 

[jonesg]

I wouldn't hire a pro who buys tools at HF.
even I prefer to avoid their junk.

 

[dusterdude]

Better than they used to be? Absolutely. As good as a Honda? I don't think so.

Three years ago when I was in the market for a new car, I was down to a Kia or a Honda. Talked to a friend who owned a service shop and sees every kind of car come through. He said Honda for long term durability, without hesitation. This fits with my experience.

Kia/Hyundai is a hell of a lot better than they were, or I wouldn't have been considering one at all. But I'm glad I chose the Honda.

My 2000 kia has 191,000 miles on it and still rollin.

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[Mechanical Noise]

I suppose I could be considered a "value oriented customer" and I expect HF to continue being a good choice for the foreseeable future.

If HF abandons customers like me, I don't think I'll have any problem getting what I want elsewhere. The Internet has made it easy. I don't feel any more loyalty to a particular store than they feel for me.