Vintage? Wera "parallel tip" drivers similar to PB Swiss

[measuredtwice]

Found these Wera drivers that follow the VSM 35601 Swiss standard. The handles even look similar to the PB Swiss classic handles. Hopefully I'll get them in a couple of weeks. Wera also made VSM drivers with their current "Kraftform" handles but I don't care for the shape of the handle. Some love them but to me they feel like I'm holding a knot in a rope. So I was happy to find these classic handles.

I already have some PB Swiss drivers. But in another topic, @SRSemenza said he preferred the Wera VSM drivers.

I tried the PB Swiss drivers for slotted screws (regular sizes , not precision). Though I like parallel tips I do not like the PB Swiss parallel tips. They are "pre-rounded" , rounded corners and edges. You can see this "rounding / smoothing" in the pic above. I found that compared to others they slip out of the screw slot. I also found that others have a tighter fit.

Wera used to make a parallel tip driver in the same style as the PB Swiss. VSM 345 series. Same type of "stepped" tip as the PB Swiss and with 45 degree corners. But slightly thicker tolerance and hard crisp edges. . Those fit and grip well. They were discontinued some years ago. I have manged to get all but sizes #2 , #3. Still looking for those.

Seth

Seth has the Kraftform handles but the tips should be the same on the Classic handles. I found this photo on the web.

I'm looking forward to comparing the Wera and PB Swiss side-by-side.

 

[neophyte]

I recall there was at least one screwdriver or tool manufacturer that was selling drivers with the PB SWIS type slotted flat tips, that was not PB Baumann.
My recollection is the manufacturer may have simply been purchasing driver blades from PB and using their iwn handles rather than PB handles.
It might have been Wera, but it has been a while since I’ve seen them so I’m not sure.
I believe it was one of the German manufacturers though.

Wera could be making their own blades in that style as well, but the numbers on the tip are something I’ve only really seen on the PB drivers, so I presume the blades are just made by PB.

A note on that tip style.
While it is currently usually referred to as the Swiss or PB style flathead/slotted driver tip, I’ve actually seen tool catalogs from US tool companies from 100+ years ago, that show what appears to be similar tips an slotted screw driver bits made for the older brace drills.
I’ve also actually found older bits on ebay that also have that tip style, or something very similar.
At some point the tip style seems to have stopped becoming common, maybe do to breakage or extra cost of manufacturing, or maybe because it was harder to customize to different screw sizes.

The chamfered corners on the Swiss style flat head drivers seem to be unusual on regular screwdrivers, but high quality slotted screwdriver bits made for industrial use from the USA are routinely chamfered on the corners.

 

[measuredtwice]

I recall there was at least one screwdriver or tool manufacturer that was selling drivers with the PB SWIS type slotted flat tips, that was not PB Baumann.

I think PB Baumann is the old name of PB Swiss.

My recollection is the manufacturer may have simply been purchasing driver blades from PB and using their iwn handles rather than PB handles.
It might have been Wera, but it has been a while since I’ve seen them so I’m not sure.
I believe it was one of the German manufacturers though.

Wera could be making their own blades in that style as well, but the numbers on the tip are something I’ve only really seen on the PB drivers, so I presume the blades are just made by PB.

According to @SRSemenza, the tips are different than tips from PB Swiss. But I don't know if it is a matter of age and changes in manufacturing or who manufactured it.

I'm curious if there will be a COO on the box. They weren't intended for export to the USA so I don't know if they will have a COO.

A note on that tip style.
While it is currently usually referred to as the Swiss or PB style flathead/slotted driver tip, I’ve actually seen tool catalogs from US tool companies from 100+ years ago, that show what appears to be similar tips an slotted screw driver bits made for the older brace drills.
I’ve also actually found older bits on ebay that also have that tip style, or something very similar.
At some point the tip style seems to have stopped becoming common, maybe do to breakage or extra cost of manufacturing, or maybe because it was harder to customize to different screw sizes.

The chamfered corners on the Swiss style flat head drivers seem to be unusual on regular screwdrivers, but high quality slotted screwdriver bits made for industrial use from the USA are routinely chamfered on the corners.

Interesting. I'd like to see those antiques. I know Grace USA makes similar drivers.

 

[Hytekrednek]

Grace makes some wooden handled drivers with the same tip type. They get mixed reviews, but mostly good.

 

[M6erfan]

Interesting MeasuredTwice, thanks for posting. Would love to see side by side with PB Swiss

Grace and Forster both make parallel tip screwdrivers USA

 

[neophyte]

I think PB Baumann is the old name of PB Swiss.



According to @SRSemenza, the tips are different than tips from PB Swiss. But I don't know if it is a matter of age and changes in manufacturing or who manufactured it.

I'm curious if there will be a COO on the box. They weren't intended for export to the USA so I don't know if they will have a COO.




Interesting. I'd like to see those antiques. I know Grace USA makes similar drivers.

PB Baumann is the older name for PB Swiss, but this isn’t the company I was talking about.
One of the German tool companies was selling screwdrivers with the PB style blades(which also had the etched numbers on the tips). When I saw the screwdrivers, I just figered the German tool company got the Swiss style blades from PB, but I never confirmed whether that was true or not.

The older bits I saw with the tip style weren’t from Grace, and as far as I know, they weren’t made for gunsmithing.
The bits were just in a large tool catalog, maybe from Sargent back when they manufactured a very large selection of tools.
I also came across a lot of brace bits on ebay with the same tip style, and I believe thise were from a different manufacturer than Sargent, one that I wasn’t familiar with.

 

[Hytekrednek]

slotted screws being used much more in years past compared to other style heads may be one reason they had more choices back then, or at least were easier to find. They do look elegant on some things like guns or old machines, but man are they frustrating. Good fitting bits and blade are a must to limit this frustration and decrease damage. I probably have 600 bits in my racks for use mostly in guns and reels, and 2/3's of them are flat/standard of many many different sizes. Second most is the collection of hex bits. Hex bits vary from maker to maker and some fit certain screws better than others. Having choices is a good thing. Probably another 1000 bits in bags and boxes that are extras, from old set, got good deal on, spares, etc that is overkill, but does come in handy.

 

[neophyte]

This is the Sargent tool Cataolg where I saw the drivers.
Some of the drivers have blades made from flat steel stock like traditional gunsmithing turnscrews.
Others are forged like traditional cabinetmaker turnscrews.
Sone have blades made from round rob like most modern screwdrivers.
A whole bunch appear to have two distinct sections on the tips, like the tip of the tip has been modified from a standard modern tapered flathead screwdriver.
In the catalog, on the original Catalog page numbers, the screwdrivers start on page 33 and go thru page 36, which winds up being page 43 of the PDF.
Page 120 shows the flathead brace driver bits, which are depicted larger so it’s easier to see the tip design. This page 130 of the PDF.
Sargent makes no mention of a special tip design, but the engraved illustration definately shows a modified tip design, and there is a standard tapered screwdriver tip like is standard nowadays shown on page 33 in the catalog.
https://archive.org/details/SargentToolBook1911Catalog/page/n15

 

[measuredtwice]

Grace makes some wooden handled drivers with the same tip type. They get mixed reviews, but mostly good.

I thought the tips might be soft for gun smithing but I'd like to try them if I get the opportunity.

Interesting MeasuredTwice, thanks for posting. Would love to see side by side with PB Swiss

Grace and Forster both make parallel tip screwdrivers USA

Thanks! I'm looking forward to comparing them.

PB Baumann is the older name for PB Swiss, but this isn’t the company I was talking about.
One of the German tool companies was selling screwdrivers with the PB style blades(which also had the etched numbers on the tips). When I saw the screwdrivers, I just figered the German tool company got the Swiss style blades from PB, but I never confirmed whether that was true or not.

Interesting. The auction only showed one photo. I wonder if there is a COO or any other interesting details written on the back of the box.

Witte and Stahlwille also made VSM drivers. Someone on GJ said the Stahlwille drivers are made by Witte but I don't know anything about it.

The older bits I saw with the tip style weren’t from Grace, and as far as I know, they weren’t made for gunsmithing.
The bits were just in a large tool catalog, maybe from Sargent back when they manufactured a very large selection of tools.
I also came across a lot of brace bits on ebay with the same tip style, and I believe thise were from a different manufacturer than Sargent, one that I wasn’t familiar with.

Thanks for the info and catalog scans. I'm going to enjoy paging through the catalog this evening. I like to buy antiques when there's a good opportunity. I don't have any older than 1890s though. Here are the tips of two 1920 slotted drivers that were made in the USA.

 

[JBH]

One of the German tool companies was selling screwdrivers with the PB style blades(which also had the etched numbers on the tips). When I saw the screwdrivers, I just figered the German tool company got the Swiss style blades from PB, but I never confirmed whether that was true or not.

Witte/Stahlwille. Possibly Witte for HZ as well.

 

[SRSemenza]

The Kraftform (green / black) Wera VSM tips are definitely different than the current PB Swiss tips. I would do a side by side pic but I disliked the PB tip so much that I moved them along. Note they are the same style of tip ..... "stepped parallel, and cut corners, but still different.

It could be that Wera bought from PB Swiss but only if the tip has been changed since. Those classic handle Wera sure do look like PB Swiss handles.

I have all but two of the sizes in the Wera. But A friend finally tracked them down for me as NOS. I will probably have them in a few weeks.

That 45 degree ( more rounded on the current PB) helps when choosing the right size to completely "fill" the screw slot on a flat head screw with a tapered bottom on the head. Keeps it from having the blade corners sticking out and scraping / catching on a countersink hole.

Seth

 

[SRSemenza]

For example ....... screws in stuff like old door knobs.



Seth

 

[measuredtwice]

For example ....... screws in stuff like old door knobs.



Seth

Thanks for posting! Does the tip on this "classic" Wera 245 look similar to the tip on your "Kraftform plus" Wera 345?

 

[measuredtwice]

Witte/Stahlwille. Possibly Witte for HZ as well.

JBH, Who is HZ? Hazet? Or is there a company called HZ?

 

[SRSemenza]

Thanks for posting! Does the tip on this "classic" Wera 245 look similar to the tip on your "Kraftform plus" Wera 345?

Yes, I would say so ................



Seth

 

[measuredtwice]

Yes! That's what I was hoping.

 

[measuredtwice]

Got them today and I'm very pleased with the purchase. As Seth said, the Wera tips don't have that preworn rounding like they do from PB Swiss.

They weren't made for export to the US so I wasn't sure if it would have a COO. The box does say "Germany" on it. But it doesn't say "Made in". I don't know if Germany refers to the company or the COO.

When I get the chance, I'll take a photo showing the tips of the Wera and PB Swiss drivers side-by-side. I don't have the classic handles from PB Swiss so I can't do a direct comparison of the classic handles from both companies.

 

[measuredtwice]

I had difficulty getting a sharp photo so I stuck them on a scanner. The Wera is on the left and the PB Swiss is on the right. The Wera has sharper edges and the PB Swiss has rounded edges.

You might wonder why the PB Swiss looks so dark. It's just an artifact. Shiny reflective surfaces have a dark appearance in scans. The PB Swiss is shiny. The Wera is matte.

 

[measuredtwice]

Couple more photos...

Wera on the left. PB Swiss on the right.

 

[M6erfan]

Thanks for the pics. The tips look very similar but the PB Swiss look to be slightly better finished.

 

[measuredtwice]

Thanks for the pics. The tips look very similar but the PB Swiss look to be slightly better finished.

It looks like they have an extra polishing step. Seth found the rounding of the edges on PB Swiss drivers to be undesirable in use.

I've just got the Wera drivers and need more time with them to form an opinion but I think Seth makes a good point. I think the difference is most noticeable on the smallest drivers. Perhaps that's why PB Swiss started hollow grinding their new precision drivers instead.

 

[M6erfan]

It looks like they have an extra polishing step. Seth found the rounding of the edges on PB Swiss drivers to be undesirable in use.

I've just got the Wera drivers and need more time with them to form an opinion but I think Seth makes a good point. I think the difference is most noticeable on the smallest drivers. Perhaps that's why PB Swiss started hollow grinding their new precision drivers instead.

"undesireable in use"...I wonder why? I don't see a significant difference in design. 45° cut vs rounded? Of course I don't have both in hand to compare but after owning PB Swiss I would never go back to 'chisel tips' on typical screwdrivers.

Edit: Where Iv'e found the PB slotted tips to shine is on brass jets that are buried in carburetors, the rounded edges dont scratch or mar up the screw slot or the soft body of the carb. I can't tell you how many buggered up jets I've come across.

 

[measuredtwice]

"undesireable in use"...I wonder why? I don't see a significant difference in design. 45° cut vs rounded? Of course I don't have both in hand to compare but after owning PB Swiss I would never go back to 'chisel tips' on typical screwdrivers.

Edit: Where Iv'e found the PB slotted tips to shine is on brass jets that are buried in carburetors, the rounded edges dont scratch or mar up the screw slot or the soft body of the carb. I can't tell you how many buggered up jets I've come across.

I also really like the Swiss standard. I wouldn't want to go back to chisel tips either... unless opening paint cans.

I think Seth's point is that the polishing knocks off all the edges and that smoothness makes the drivers slip more as if they were already preworn from years of use. In contrast, many companies go the opposite direction and add anti-cam out ridges or laser etched grooves or diamond coatings so that the surfaces are less smooth and slip less. I just got the Wera drivers but time will tell whether I have the same experience as Seth or whether I come to a different conclusion.

For outsiders, I'll point out that this is critical discussion among tool aficionados regarding 2 good sets of drivers with minor differences.

 

[Spacey_G]

I think Seth's point is that the polishing knocks off all the edges and that smoothness makes the drivers slip more as if they were already preworn from years of use. In contrast, many companies go the opposite direction and add anti-cam out ridges or laser etched grooves or diamond coatings so that the surfaces are less smooth and slip less. I just got the Wera drivers but time will tell whether I have the same experience as Seth or whether I come to a different conclusion.

That's how I read it too. Referring to the couple thou radius on the edges of the tip, not the two large radii on each corner meant for countersink clearance.

 

[M6erfan]

That's how I read it too. Referring to the couple thou radius on the edges of the tip, not the two large radii on each corner meant for countersink clearance.

OK, now I got it. That looks like a tiny difference that could make a big difference in use.

Let us know what you think, measuredtwice. Thanks.

 

[SRSemenza]

Yes, basically what I found in my usage is that the PB Swiss tips slipped more due to the rounded edges and the rounded corners. The rounding is a bit more prevalent than it appears in the pics. I actually thought that my plane old Craftsman Pro drivers (chisel tip) grabbed better than the PB Swiss. The Wera were better than both and they have a tighter fit than the PB. This was in a head to head comparison on a wide variety of screws in several sizes.

I ended up doing the comparison between the CM Pros and the PB because I started using the PB and I was thinking these should be great, but they don't seem to be. So just to confirm I did the comparison. When I got the Wera I did it again.

I know others have found the opposite and really like the PB. But I didn't like them. It might depend on what they are compared to etc, etc. Your mileage may very.

Seth

 

[M6erfan]

Damn, now I want to try those Wera's...

 

[measuredtwice]

They're less than the price of the Harbor Freight screwdrivers that someone posted recently as a good deal. I got the 6 piece (4 - 10mm set) for 12.90 Euro. There's also 10 Euro 5 piece set (4 - 8 mm). Those prices include VAT and shipping within Germany. Unfortunately, I did not find any sellers willing to ship directly to the USA (I asked) so I had to use a mail forwarding service.

 

[measuredtwice]

I've gotten a chance to use the drivers enough to give some feedback.

Although I do appreciate the difference in the sharpness/roundedness of the edges noted by Seth, I'm not particularly sensitive to slipping. I mostly notice the difference when using the size 1 or 2 slotted on slippery little high polished stainless screws. I don't really notice a difference with the size 3-6 drivers.

I like both the Wera and PB Swiss slotted screwdrivers. To me, there is not really a functional difference that justifies spending more money on the PB Swiss drivers. I would be fine with just the Wera drivers. But those fancy Swiss Grip handles from PB Swiss are certainly comfy and I don't mind spoiling myself with good tools. . The Wera drivers are a good deal at a fraction of the cost of PB Swiss and might be worth considering if you want the benefit of VSM 35601 Swiss standard and don't want to spend a lot of money. They might also be worth considering if you want acetate handles and are worried about the smell of the PB Swiss acetate handles. The Wera drivers don't smell at all. The PB Swiss acetate handles are made with a different type of acetate and some say they smell like vomit... some say they smell like vanilla... and some say they smell like vanilla vomit.
Another possibility is to buy the Swiss Grip (that's what I did) that have santoprene handles instead of acetate.

 

[M6erfan]

I've gotten a chance to use the drivers enough to give some feedback.

Although I do appreciate the difference in the sharpness/roundedness of the edges noted by Seth, I'm not particularly sensitive to slipping. I mostly notice the difference when using the size 1 or 2 slotted on slippery little high polished stainless screws. I don't really notice a difference with the size 3-6 drivers.

I like both the Wera and PB Swiss slotted screwdrivers. To me, there is not really a functional difference that justifies spending more money on the PB Swiss drivers. I would be fine with just the Wera drivers. But those fancy Swiss Grip handles from PB Swiss are certainly comfy and I don't mind spoiling myself with good tools. . The Wera drivers are a good deal at a fraction of the cost of PB Swiss and might be worth considering if you want the benefit of VSM 35601 Swiss standard and don't want to spend a lot of money. They might also be worth considering if you want acetate handles and are worried about the smell of the PB Swiss acetate handles. Another possibility is to buy the Swiss Grip (that's what I did) that have santoprene handles instead of acetate.

Thanks for the follow up

FWIW, my PBS classic handles smell like vanilla. Seriously.

 

[measuredtwice]

Cheers! I've got a little collection of VSM drivers growing--haha! ...vintage Felo W. Germany (pre 1990), Wera old logo (unknown age but more recent) and recent PB Swiss. There are also some Stahlwille VSM drivers available in the USA but they are pricey and I haven't tried them yet.

 

[measuredtwice]

I don't have the classic handles from PB Swiss so I can't do a direct comparison of the classic handles from both companies.

I received some classic handle PB Swiss and now I can compare the handles directly. They are VERY similar but not identical. They even have similar marks with different brand names, of course.

The PB Swiss handles smell like vanilla. The Wera handles have no odor. I like the classic handles but the Swiss grip handles look and feel more like a premium product.

Happy to have all these sets from both Wera and PB Swiss.

 

[measuredtwice]

Finally got around to taking a few comparison photos of the Wera and PB Swiss classic handles. Similar but not the same.

PB Swiss on top and Wera on bottom

Oops switched up the order here. Wera on top and PB Swiss on the bottom.

 

[Steve_P]

Couple more photos...

Wera on the left. PB Swiss on the right.

The amount of material removed from the corners of both blades is ridiculous- this is where the force is applied, not at the center; the most valuable material is missing.
I know I'll get flamed by the parallel tip slotted screwdriver fans for pointing this out. I'll stick with my crappy Wihas

 

[measuredtwice]

The amount of material removed from the corners of both blades is ridiculous- this is where the force is applied, not at the center; the most valuable material is missing.
I know I'll get flamed by the parallel tip slotted screwdriver fans for pointing this out. I'll stick with my crappy Wihas

Discussing this sort of stuff is what we do. Not a problem.

I'd clarify a few things for those who haven't used them...

Knocking off the corners isn't what makes them parallel. It's the profile that is parallel...

The corners are knocked off for countersunk screws. Also, the amount of the material missing seems to follow screw size. And the real tiny drivers have barely anything off the edges.

 

[M6erfan]

The amount of material removed from the corners of both blades is ridiculous- this is where the force is applied, not at the center; the most valuable material is missing.
I know I'll get flamed by the parallel tip slotted screwdriver fans for pointing this out. I'll stick with my crappy Wihas

The chamfer is very shallow. The depth of insertion would mean that the tips are in full contact withe the slotted fastener at the edges. You're not losing anything by having chamfered tips (at least on my PBS drivers).

I like and have Wiha too.

 

[measuredtwice]

I also like and use Wiha. But one gripe that I have with most German screwdrivers is the 6.5 is only sold as 1.2 mm thick. Klein and many other USA made drivers have 1/4 driver that's around 1.0mm thick. The PB Swiss and these vintage Wera VSM are 1.0 thick for the #4.

I also have some Felo drivers that have parallel tips but the corners aren't knocked off.
They were made in W. Germany so they are decades old.

 

[measuredtwice]

Here's a comparison photo of PB Swiss, Klein and Wiha driving a common countersunk screw. The PB Swiss 6.5 mm fills the slot perfectly. The Klein 1/4" also is an excellent fit but the corners do stick out because of the shape of the countersunk screw. The Wiha 5.5 just wedges in at the very tip and doesn't fill the slot. The Wiha 6.5 (not shown) doesn't fit at all. All these screwdrivers are good screwdrivers but they don't all fit the same. Standard screw sizes have a range so having lots of choices is a good thing.

 

[neophyte]

I also like and use Wiha. But one gripe that I have with most German screwdrivers is the 6.5 is only sold as 1.2 mm thick. Klein and many other USA made drivers have 1/4 driver that's around 1.0mm thick. The PB Swiss and these vintage Wera VSM are 1.0 thick for the #4.

I also have some Felo drivers that have parallel tips but the corners aren't knocked off.
They were made in W. Germany so they are decades old.

It used to be standard to manufacture slot head screwdrivers with very thin tips, because the people who used the screwdrivers could then file the tip back in case they needed the tip thicker for crews with wider cut slots.
You could also easily run a fole across the rapered sives of the driver if you needed the screwdriver slightly less wide.
If the screwdriver tip snapped, you could place the screwdriver on a whetstone, and rub each side successively, to thin the tip again, or to make a very fine tip for the occasional screw with an iltra thin slot.
Nowadays, most people don’t know to do this, and on plated drivers it’s not as easy or desirable since it removes the plated finish.
Also, for bit screwdrivers, the bit steel tends to be very hard.

 

[measuredtwice]

It used to be standard to manufacture slot head screwdrivers with very thin tips, because the people who used the screwdrivers could then file the tip back in case they needed the tip thicker for crews with wider cut slots.
You could also easily run a fole across the rapered sives of the driver if you needed the screwdriver slightly less wide.
If the screwdriver tip snapped, you could place the screwdriver on a whetstone, and rub each side successively, to thin the tip again, or to make a very fine tip for the occasional screw with an iltra thin slot.
Nowadays, most people don’t know to do this, and on plated drivers it’s not as easy or desirable since it removes the plated finish.
Also, for bit screwdrivers, the bit steel tends to be very hard.

I remember my grandfather teaching me to reshape and tune a worn screwdriver on an Arkansas stone. I think that's less common today for the reasons that you mentioned and stuff just gets tossed and replaced. The diamond hones available today make quick work of it though.