The VISES of Garage Journal

[Old Radar]

Nice vise haul TX !

Interestingly, your Baby Wilton has nearly mirror image mars and file marks on both sides of the jaws. The PO obviously did the same kind of work with this vise repeatedly, then flipped the work piece and repeated.

Nice Stanley 700, too. I picked one up last year with the "presdwood" jaw faces.

 

[txlonghorn1989]

Rusty posted a link above - the page has the 76X, 74X and 700/702

Doh! I looked at the link. Even blew it up but I only looked at the pic in the catalog for model numbers. No 763 right there below is the 2" jaw clamp-on. I don't see any dates for that catalog. Tried looking at first 10-12 pages thinking there was probably a publish date somewhere. Did not find one.

 

[rusty65]

Nice vise haul TX !

Interestingly, your Baby Wilton has nearly mirror image mars and file marks on both sides of the jaws. The PO obviously did the same kind of work with this vise repeatedly, then flipped the work piece and repeated.

Nice Stanley 700, too. I picked one up last year with the "presdwood" jaw faces.

I suspect Wilton was using old tooling along with old worn castings. Making it to where more of the Baby’s had to be hand fit. I think the keys were stamped in large batches before final assembly.


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[txlonghorn1989]

Tex:
I believe the accepted date for the move from Chicago to Schiller Park is 1957.
But especially with the babies, Wilton used old castings and maybe the molds too well into the period of time after the move.

Ok. Are you in agreement with Rusty on dates of 1973-1976? That's almost 20 years of back stock. That's a lot. Hmmm. I see far more Schiller Park bullets than Chicago. But I'm new at this and I will absolutely defer to those with more expertise than me. Is there a main Wilton bullet thread where this is discussed ad infinitum?

Rusty, How did you arrive at those dates ('73-'76) for the baby Wilton?

 

[txlonghorn1989]

I suspect Wilton was using old tooling along with old worn castings. Making it to where more of the Baby’s had to be hand fit. I think the keys were stamped in large batches before final assembly.


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So you're not saying Wilton had backstock of static jaws/bases after their move from Chicago. You're saying they likely were using the tools and form from Chicago while manufacturing in Schiller Park?

 

[txlonghorn1989]

Nice vise haul TX !

Interestingly, your Baby Wilton has nearly mirror image mars and file marks on both sides of the jaws. The PO obviously did the same kind of work with this vise repeatedly, then flipped the work piece and repeated.

Nice Stanley 700, too. I picked one up last year with the "presdwood" jaw faces.

Thanks OR. Now I want to find a Power arm Jr for it. :0)

 

[rusty65]

So you're not saying Wilton had backstock of static jaws/bases after their move from Chicago. You're saying they likely were using the tools and form from Chicago while manufacturing in Schiller Park?

Yes that’s what I believe. I think with that model having low sales made Wilton less likely to spend extra money on new machines and fixtures.


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[Old Radar]

I don't see any dates for that catalog. Tried looking at first 10-12 pages thinking there was probably a publish date somewhere. Did not find one.

1958. You have to look at the site info below the actual catalog.

 

[txlonghorn1989]

Yes that’s what I believe. I think with that model having low sales made Wilton less likely to spend extra money on new machines and fixtures.

Okay. Bear with me please, am I getting this correct in imagining Wilton has "molds" or forms from Chicago along with their tooling to pour or cast the pieces (dynamic and static jaws) of the bullet vises? And rather than invest in new forms/molds for the pieces they just kept using the Chicago ones? It also sounds like it was not true across the full bullet line of vises.

I'm definitely curious to understand the logic behind that theory? What are the data points that lead to that conclusion? I'm not doubting you just curious about how that was arrived at.

 

[txlonghorn1989]

1958. You have to look at the site info below the actual catalog.

I see it. Thanks OR.

 

[Outlawmws]

I have a differing theory on the castings - when casting they want to pour as may vises as possible to use up the available molten steel. Its not a stop and start process. So if you do the math (and just tossing some random numbers out) if you have a 4 lb vise vs, a 40 pounder you have to cast 10X as many 4 pounders to equal the same weight or pour of 40 pounders.

So the baby is likely going to have a LOT made at once. In order to keep the costs for the baby's down (it IS a lot less expensive vise "back in the day") you wind up with a LOT of them! proportionate to the larger vises. so they just made WAY more than they ever assembled in Chicago.

We also know from the Wilton Date thread, that Wilton might assemble other larger vises with Chicago castings. - likely to be a casting overrun that got stored, and then forgotten or buried till later and then assembled. Very possibly cause and effect of moving castings from Chicago to S. Park. for the larger castings some got placed so they were difficult to get to, then used up later when they finally were able to get to them....

That's my theory for what its worth. Pure conjecture, but It does have a certain logic.

 

[Shiftless]

C.T.S.:
That’s a very nice earlier Record. No wonder your customer is happy.
Do you have an economical way to ship vises across the pond? May I ask what shipping that one cost?

Outlaw:
That theory makes sense to me. Too bad we don’t have access to anybody that was around the factory during that time. Some guy that was in his twenties back then would be in his 80’s today.

Tex:
When you say you see more S.P. bullets than Chicago bullets, are you referring to just babies or all the other sizes? I only have 2 babies in my collection...both Chicago.
One is date stamped 2-46
The other is 12 and the year is hopelessly lost to wear.

BTW, is mine the oldest baby in GJ?

 

[rusty65]

Okay. Bear with me please, am I getting this correct in imagining Wilton has "molds" or forms from Chicago along with their tooling to pour or cast the pieces (dynamic and static jaws) of the bullet vises? And rather than invest in new forms/molds for the pieces they just kept using the Chicago ones? It also sounds like it was not true across the full bullet line of vises.

I'm definitely curious to understand the logic behind that theory? What are the data points that lead to that conclusion? I'm not doubting you just curious about how that was arrived at.

The vises were cast from wooden patterns in sand molds. The pieces then would have to be machined in lathes mills and drill presses that’s the tooling I’m referring to also.


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[rusty65]

C.T.S.:
That’s a very nice earlier Record. No wonder your customer is happy.
Do you have an economical way to ship vises across the pond? May I ask what shipping that one cost?

Outlaw:
That theory makes sense to me. Too bad we don’t have access to anybody that was around the factory during that time. Some guy that was in his twenties back then would be in his 80’s today.

Tex:
When you say you see more S.P. bullets than Chicago bullets, are you referring to just babies or all the other sizes? I only have 2 babies in my collection...both Chicago.
One is date stamped 2-46
The other is 12 and the year is hopelessly lost to wear.

BTW, is mine the oldest baby in GJ?

I had one dated 3-1945 and Wilton made many baby bullets for the military during ww2.


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[Shiftless]

I had one dated 3-1945 and Wilton made many baby bullets for the military during ww2.


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Thanks
Wouldn’t that be something to have a WWII tool kit complete with a baby bullet?!

 

[rusty65]

Thanks
Wouldn’t that be something to have a WWII tool kit complete with a baby bullet?!

That really would be something. From my understanding some were included in the kits made for setting up short distance communication lines.


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[Crack The Sky]

C.T.S.:
That’s a very nice earlier Record. No wonder your customer is happy.
Do you have an economical way to ship vises across the pond? May I ask what shipping that one cost?

Yeah thanks, it was a particularly nice one it was basicly 1 owner from new, i brought it from the original owners grandson who was clearing out an old workshop.
At the moment i use ebay to sell my vices (looking to branch out into private sales soon, ebay are taking way to much in the way of fee's) i'm not sure how much he paid shipping to ebay unfortunately, but last time i shipped a vice myself to the U.S it was about £30 i believe (so about $40US) i might look into this abit more though for future referance

Also, my latest haul of vices:
Record no.1
Record no.3
Record no.6 (paint is in great condition, and the rust looks to be pretty light, so an easy dissmantle and clean up job for me)
Cheap chinese "mighty" swivel vice
Cheap small woodworking vice (not sure on make, but looks either cheap chinese or maybe even japanese)

I also got a bunch of wood turning chisels and 15kg+ of spanners
the guy i got them all from any loaads of stuff, mainly a nice small metal lathe, really wish i had more money haha xD

Unfortunatly i missed out on a lovely old L.S.Starrett vice last week, it was to far away from me to be able to collect it, i was so disapointed haha

 

[RTM]

Forgot who asked for Stanley catalogs to date their #700 vise, but here is the link to all of them, not just a single year.

https://archive.org/details/internationaltoolcataloglibrary?and[]=Stanley&sin=&sort=-date

 

[txlonghorn1989]

...
Tex:
When you say you see more S.P. bullets than Chicago bullets, are you referring to just babies or all the other sizes? I only have 2 babies in my collection...both Chicago.
One is date stamped 2-46
The other is 12 and the year is hopelessly lost to wear.

BTW, is mine the oldest baby in GJ?

Just bullets in general.

Was the baby bullet one of their least selling vises? I could almost seeing both the biggest and the smallest maybe not hitting the sweet spot with customers.

 

[Fierljeppen]

rusty65 and outlawmws...Interesting and very plausible theories.

I'll add another theory. According to the 1950 Wilton catalog, tens of thousands of these vises had been incorporated into the Signal Corps' Portable Field Repair Kits. That's a lot of castings that were produced before the end of 1945. For better or for worse, the "Manhattan Project" ended WWII must sooner than anyone could have anticipated at the time, leaving a whole lot of unused "baby" Wilton castings that were produced, but not assembled or machined for sale to the public.

Like rusty65 mentioned, these vises weren't big sellers and the "Chicago" castings were available into the 1970's before it was necessary to make new molds. The first "Schiller Park" casting I've found on a "baby" Wilton, has a 1981 date stamp. I believe that to be the 5-year "expiration date", making the last "Chicago" casting to be around 1976.

Again, this is just a theory of mine and shouldn't be considered anything more than that.

 

[Outlawmws]

Hmmm, That ad is from 1950?

The model (catalog) number says 20S, (swivel base)

My baby with a 2-47 date says 200S?

TX's with no date, is a 920?

 

[Fierljeppen]

Every Wilton brochure and catalog I own, from (1945-1974) lists the "baby" Wilton as a 20N or 20S. Anyone else with Wilton catalogs should be able to verify this.

I'm not sure what you're implying?

 

[Outlawmws]

Making the assumption that the Catalog # actually tied to something on the vise, but as is often the case; No...

 

[txlonghorn1989]

What are you guys saying? The catalog doesn't necessarily equate to what is getting sold to customers as it pertains to vise model numbers?

 

[Outlawmws]

As I previously posted yours is a 920 mine is a 200S (it has a swivel, yours does not...) in both cases the catalog number is different: (20N for yours, 20S for mine)

Craftsman numbers are no better...

 

[htw]

Yeah thanks, it was a particularly nice one it was basicly 1 owner from new, i brought it from the original owners grandson who was clearing out an old workshop.
At the moment i use ebay to sell my vices (looking to branch out into private sales soon, ebay are taking way to much in the way of fee's) i'm not sure how much he paid shipping to ebay unfortunately, but last time i shipped a vice myself to the U.S it was about £30 i believe (so about $40US) i might look into this abit more though for future referance

...

According to the listing Ebay charged ~73£.

Shipping:GBP 73.03 (approx. US $96.46) Expedited Shipping to United States

 

[Krikorian]

Hello good night, greetings from venezuela. My name is Jorge Krikorian. I am 40 years old. I joined this site, motivated to gain knowledge and share it. I have a small workshop, and for a few years I have bought some vices, york and wilton. I hope to share the restoration work in this forum. Thank you very much for this space, good night.

 

[txlonghorn1989]

Welcome Jorge! We look forward to seeing your vises and their restorations.

 

[txlonghorn1989]

As I previously posted yours is a 920 mine is a 200S (it has a swivel, yours does not...) in both cases the catalog number is different: (20N for yours, 20S for mine)

Craftsman numbers are no better...

Thanks for the clarification. What do you think about this mark on the front jaw? Looks like a "N" or "M" or just a ding during or after manufacturing?

 

[va.grouseman]

Welcome Jorge.---You'd be surprised how many people have had a passion for collecting vises that didn't know that there was a whole nother group of people that had a passion for collecting vises.---Until they go to looking for information about some they've acquired.

 

[akasrick]

Forgot who asked for Stanley catalogs to date their #700 vise, but here is the link to all of them, not just a single year.

https://archive.org/details/internationaltoolcataloglibrary?and[]=Stanley&sin=&sort=-date

Nice vise and price. I have a 761 without mounting holes or any factory indentations to start a hole. I guess those type of vises all were being advertised as being multi mountable. Not to muddy the waters further, another adv. same book.

akasrick

The Verdict is in. The Unidentified Vise is a Stanley 746 3". Bought for $10. First three pics are as found. Last three pics are after a quick cleaning

Another catalog comes to light. Another 2 years comes off a timeline. 1934 catalog states the vises are provided with mounting holes.

akasrick

 

[3baygarage]

Here are pics of the unmarked jeweler's vise. At least I think it's a jeweler's vise. ??? Jaws are 1-1/8" wide. Well made little vise. Anyone recognize it?

Nice finds TX. I was wondering about the little vise. Just got this one. It’s been badly damaged.

1-3/8” jaws. I like the nice crinkle finish paint.

 

[PierceA]

3bay: its a shame someone gorilla-handed that little vise! I suppose that could be damage from dropping it on the floor and it landing 'just-right' on the side/slide and shattering the brittle iron.
Still a shame, the rest of the vise looks near mint! A good welder/machinist could do a repair on it. or maybe just keep it on a shelf and shed a tear now and then when you look at it?
PierceA

 

[Shiftless]

I agree with PierceA.
Keep it as is and display it with the good side forward.
I do that with a little Reed I picked up for very little $$ because it was missing a chunk of iron from the lower back corner of the slide.

 

[3baygarage]

3bay: its a shame someone gorilla-handed that little vise! I suppose that could be damage from dropping it on the floor and it landing 'just-right' on the side/slide and shattering the brittle iron.
Still a shame, the rest of the vise looks near mint! A good welder/machinist could do a repair on it. or maybe just keep it on a shelf and shed a tear now and then when you look at it?
PierceA

It is a shame. I was also wondering if it had fallen. Just might shed a tear every now and then as I plan to display it.

I agree with PierceA.
Keep it as is and display it with the good side forward.
I do that with a little Reed I picked up for very little $$ because it was missing a chunk of iron from the lower back corner of the slide.

That’s where it will go. I hope to mount it somewhere and eventually unite it with other small friends, broken and non.

 

[txlonghorn1989]

Nice finds TX. I was wondering about the little vise. Just got this one. It’s been badly damaged.

1-3/8” jaws. I like the nice crinkle finish paint.

Interesting. Mine also has the crinkle paint finish but with 1-1/8" jaws. I wonder who made these vises? But it looks like yours has got a swivel jaw?! Wow! I'm envious and understand the tears.

Edit: Never mind. It doesn't appears yours has a swivel jaw. Saw that "button" and thought it was a pin. Wondering if these were made by the same manufacturer?

 

[Outlawmws]

Thanks for the clarification. What do you think about this mark on the front jaw? Looks like a "N" or "M" or just a ding during or after manufacturing?

No Clue TX b

 

[Outlawmws]

3Bay, is the button on top a quick release, or a hardened anvil head?

 

[steaks&anvils]

Nice finds TX. I was wondering about the little vise. Just got this one. It’s been badly damaged.

1-3/8” jaws. I like the nice crinkle finish paint.

Boley. They have made this style of little watch and jewelry vises (vices...) for decades.

 

[dimwittedmoose51]

That $1200 baby bullet and powr arm is for that 1% we keep hearing about on the news.

My 2" BB came from a guy in Georgia and although the slide bar was crusty, I was okay with the $305 price tage. It's a 2/46 with the pat pend in the casting. My powr arm came from a free for all picker's sale at a farm ouot side of Cedar Falls IA. I wasn't sure what it was, but it said Wilton USA and she wanted $3 for it. IT spent 5 years sitting around doing nothing until the BB came along......lol

DM&FS