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hvac BIG purchase help ?

sweetk30

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EDIT : MORE INFO of current installed stuff in post #24

looking at a new forced air furnace and a/c unit for the house .

1 local place quoted me a lennox 70k btu 2 stage model EL296UH070XV36B furnace installed @ 6,650.00 all supplys hooked up .

then the a/c side was a lennox 3ton single stage condenser model EL16XC1-036-230 . then the ex changer unit for the furnace CX-35 36b-6f quantum 10c53 . these were grand total installed of 4,600.00 .

grand total of just under $11,000.00 bucks .

any good / bad about this brand ?

any idea on price points ?

i plan to get a 2nd quote and go from there .

i was told by a friend who use to do hvac that he was a HEIL brand guy and no real problems .
 
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Jim greengo

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Lennox is like working on an old mopar,lots of model specific parts.
A lot of Lennox parts aren't stocked in omaha,they get brought in out of marshal town iowa.
Which isnt something people want to hear on a fri/sat night when they're sweating or freezing.
 

metlmunchr

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Agree with Jim. And, unless their policy has changed, no one but an authorized Lennox dealer has access to those proprietary parts so you're locked in to the dealer for service down the road, good or bad, as well as the sky high prices that come with "proprietary" anything.

Spent 20 years in the business, and Lennox would be dead last on my list because of their policies regarding parts, as they all break eventually.
 

Onator

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My .02 cents - $11k sounds high, way high. Get a 2nd quote and if you’re any what handy, check around your local HVAC supply stores to see what brand replacement parts are going to be available you and that they’ll sell to retail customers.
 
OP
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sweetk30

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oh i am handy . i have a few friends who can help . one makes plenums for the local BIG private supply store .

problem is lots of stores now wont sell to you unless licensed for nat gas work to many houses going BOOM around here .

..............................

thanks for the HUGE heads up on parts / pricing / shipping delays .

.............................

plan to get 2nd and prob 3rd quote .
 

yeldogt

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You want a good installer .... that's the most important.

Most products have 10 year parts -- many now have longer compressor warranties.

If you have high humidity -- the two stage AC units are nice upgrades. What is your heating costs? How big is the house .... ? How cold does it get.

In cold climates having more than two stages on the heat is nice also ....

Did you look into rebates or other state programs? Some offer free audits w/ blower door tests
 

Kaizen

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oh i am handy . i have a few friends who can help . one makes plenums for the local BIG private supply store .

problem is lots of stores now wont sell to you unless licensed for nat gas work to many houses going BOOM around here .

..............................

thanks for the HUGE heads up on parts / pricing / shipping delays .

.............................

plan to get 2nd and prob 3rd quote .


Online brother. Start at ingrahms or supply house for comparable units and watch your jaw hit the floor. I bet 4K for both units. Shipped to your door. It is a good idea to have a licensed guy do gas connections and verify all up to current code but the rest is monkey work.

Had an oil guy give me a quote on my furnace if 12k. Said it was almost dead which I knew to be bs. I could buy it for 1500 on line. That’s when I started maintaining it myself.
No idea if this is good but

https://iwae.com/shop/1-5-ton-14-se...ditioner-gas-split-system-upflow-ha11432.html

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karoc

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Where I’m at 3 ton system be around 4-6k with nothing special having to be done get old out and new in. But is your furnace induce high efficient one?That will need couple 4”pvc for flue pipe and another to bring in fresh air into furnace? Will you need another copper line set for high efficient condenser,that will also add to cost.But will all this in mind I still don’t see 11k
 

brewchief

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Agree with Jim. And, unless their policy has changed, no one but an authorized Lennox dealer has access to those proprietary parts so you're locked in to the dealer for service down the road, good or bad, as well as the sky high prices that come with "proprietary" anything.

Spent 20 years in the business, and Lennox would be dead last on my list because of their policies regarding parts, as they all break eventually.
Any licensed HVAC contractor can open an account and get parts at a lennox parts plus. Some equipment is also available to non dealers but the higher end stuff is reserved for dealers.

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OP
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sweetk30

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current hot air furnace is around 10-11 years old . has pcv in/out . also the a/c setup is all there and working but same or older in age . no leaks in lines always stays charged .

have a 1" main gas line in from street and out of meter to the house . then 1" the length of the house and each item is tee'd off it for its own line . so flow is not a problem .

waiting on a call from a friend who still does it .
 

karoc

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10yrs old, are you having issues with it or lots of repairs? 10yrs is not old unless its heat pump. I change my system out this past winter and it was 35yrs old. Rheem system, not nothing special and no bells & whistles. Agree with danskio224, if you take every unit made and scatter all the parts you wouldn't be able to tell which parts are what cause they are all about the same. Just the design is little different.
 

Git

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I am just a homeowner but I found myself in a similar situation last Spring at the start of a heat wave when our AC Failed

Ended up going through Costco and their contractor. I get quotes from 2 other well known contractors in my area and no one could touch Costco's prices. (Costco was running a 15% discount at that time)

So from my research, the furnace your looking at (EL296UH070XV36B) is their Elite Series. In order they go -> Merit Series, ML196E, Elite Series and then their top is Dave Lennox Signature.

The AC your looking at (EL16XC1-036-230) and they have a similar product ranking -> Merit Series, Elite Series, Elite, Dave Lennox Signature, and DLSC is their top tier. That AC is considered an Elite Series

So the reason why I mentioned all that is basically your looking at their middle of their product line

Costco Contractor basically sold 3 packages, Silver, Gold and Platinum. As I recall, their lowest package, Silver, was around $10k for everything (I don't remember exactly) but it used the Elite Series Condenser with the Dave Lennox Signature Series furnace. (All 3 packages used the same furnace but there were also different thermostats and air filtration units).

So anyways, installation costs are going to vary greatly from region to region - so that is just one price point to think about, but it is fairly consistent with what you got so far. Note - the outside condenser is huge compared to the Carrier unit it replace which was 17 years old

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naturalgas

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Lennox is like working on an old mopar,lots of model specific parts.
A lot of Lennox parts aren't stocked in omaha,they get brought in out of marshal town iowa.
Which isnt something people want to hear on a fri/sat night when they're sweating or freezing.


I agree it was difficult chasing parts in my working days. I like Trane / American Standard for both furnace and AC units.


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Showkey

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Just changed out a NatGas furnace and Ac in November. Similar size and two stage unit as OP.

Lennox quote was almost the same @ $11k 10 year part 1 year labor. By far the most expensive with the lowest efficiency specifications on the AC side. The Lennox also did not want to change the return drop or the 23 year old electronic filter. He was going to install a pleated filter in the old housing. Guess that goes to the good install vs bad install.

Had 4 other quotes other brands from $7k and up. Some lower bids refused to work with the zone system already in service. One firm estimate the zone system at $4k extra .....so clearly he was not interested in working with the zoning.

Ended up at $8.2 zoned system with 10 year parts and labor warranty. New return drop and filter housing. Made the existing zone work but it was not broken.
 
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sweetk30

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10yrs old, are you having issues with it or lots of repairs? 10yrs is not old unless its heat pump. I change my system out this past winter and it was 35yrs old. Rheem system, not nothing special and no bells & whistles. Agree with danskio224, if you take every unit made and scatter all the parts you wouldn't be able to tell which parts are what cause they are all about the same. Just the design is little different.


units 1st half of life was run WRONG ...... owner installed and his PRO friend hooked up and fired it . . . he NEVER did the gas / air flow adjustments . the screws were in the factory settings . the furnace was on 15min / off 10 min all day long for years . we had local company come check it out and fixed / adjusted it and perfect since .

then the fan unit went south last winter and was 3 days out for replacement they had trouble to find . its going o.k. for now . . .

then the gas control valve was having problems and got bypassed and made to run single stage .

so its time for it to go and start fresh .
 

yeldogt

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Just changed out a NatGas furnace and Ac in November. Similar size and two stage unit as OP.

Lennox quote was almost the same @ $11k 10 year part 1 year labor. By far the most expensive with the lowest efficiency specifications on the AC side. The Lennox also did not want to change the return drop or the 23 year old electronic filter. He was going to install a pleated filter in the old housing. Guess that goes to the good install vs bad install.

Had 4 other quotes other brands from $7k and up. Some lower bids refused to work with the zone system already in service. One firm estimate the zone system at $4k extra .....so clearly he was not interested in working with the zoning.

Ended up at $8.2 zoned system with 10 year parts and labor warranty. New return drop and filter housing. Made the existing zone work but it was not broken.

I zone all my builds ..... it always surprises me that the so called pros don't do it. It's simple math. learn to do something and sell it ..... the people who do zoning do a lot of it ....why? Because it works ... adds comfort. Can make you money.

I did a build a few years ago with a guy who did not want to do it ... he was really talented. Told him I would take all the responsibility -- he did a great job and agreed it was the correct way to go once it got fired up. Again -- it's just math. CFM and BTU's
 

yeldogt

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Zoning a single room --- depends on the room size.

In my new build I zoned a large bedroom -- it required three duct runs to the room off the dedicated plenum w/ the damper. Using modern equipment with variable speeds ... as long as you provide a 25% buffer above what the lowest output CFM of the equipment -- you are good to go w/o noise and issues. The Carrier equipment figures it all out. This way the equipment can provide heat and cooling to that room even if nothing else is calling. Typically that never happens very often -- but you have to size for that. Modern zone equipment is actually always modulating --- it's slick stuff. This bedroom is on the NW of the building .... it's the coldest room in the winter and becomes the hottest room in the summer afternoons.
 

karoc

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units 1st half of life was run WRONG ...... owner installed and his PRO friend hooked up and fired it . . . he NEVER did the gas / air flow adjustments . the screws were in the factory settings . the furnace was on 15min / off 10 min all day long for years . we had local company come check it out and fixed / adjusted it and perfect since .

then the fan unit went south last winter and was 3 days out for replacement they had trouble to find . its going o.k. for now . . .

then the gas control valve was having problems and got bypassed and made to run single stage .

so its time for it to go and start fresh .
Dang,I also say it’s time.Like others pointed out it’s the installers and startup guy more than just name on equipment
 
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Jim greengo

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10yrs old, are you having issues with it or lots of repairs? 10yrs is not old unless its heat pump. I change my system out this past winter and it was 35yrs old. Rheem system, not nothing special and no bells & whistles. Agree with danskio224, if you take every unit made and scatter all the parts you wouldn't be able to tell which parts are what cause they are all about the same. Just the design is little different.

Try taking 3 differant g series model furnaces apart and tell me how interchangeable they are .:spit:
 

karoc

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I was not to clear my statement, which I was referring to condensers. Compressors are all about same Copeland or Tecumseh or maybe Sunburst?Dont know if Trane still makes their Climatuff compressors which are bad to bone.But after compressor all other parts are about same just different name.Na I can’t hang with your G series don’t know nothing about them.Still in trade but at commercial level, I can’t hang with you guys that service and install residential equipment
 

Jim greengo

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I was not to clear my statement, which I was referring to condensers. Compressors are all about same Copeland or Tecumseh or maybe Sunburst?Dont know if Trane still makes their Climatuff compressors which are bad to bone.But after compressor all other parts are about same just different name.Na I can’t hang with your G series don’t know nothing about them.Still in trade but at commercial level, I can’t hang with you guys that service and install residential equipment
I'm too old to climb up and down ladders on to commercial roofs anymore.:beer:
 

karoc

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I have set few Heil condensers and installed few furnaces over the yrs they were good back then and I'm sure they are even better now. Like other brands having a 20yr heat exchanger warranty is good thing. But I always thought that in New England states sweetk30 that York is the go to brand? In 90-93 I work in Massachusetts all AC systems were all York which was very nice.
 

yeldogt

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any feelings on HEIL products ?

There is a few in my area using them . 1 guy said ha has had no real problems at all in years .

Heil -- is ICP. Used to put Arcoair (ICP brand) in my rentals back in the 90's. Carrier bought ICP -- forget when. Quite a while ago.


There are various reasons for different brands. Carrier makes Bryant -- Bryant was the line that all the oil companies sold. Carrier for the HVAC guys .. the plumbers who did HVAC would get another line.

Carrier and Bryant are the same units -- often the same unit will be packaged with two snap on labels ...one Bryant another Carrier. The last I looked Bryant did not list the most expensive model on the web site. It was available

As you go down the pecking order they use different brands. While carrier did make a "builder" model .... it was a limited line. They would use another line for middle of the road and builder grade. I used to use Arcoair because they positioned that brand as a high efficiency value brand with a quiet condenser -- that fit into what I was doing back then.

Looking at the Heil website ..... they sell the same 5 speed unit that I am using in my current build. I'm using the Carrier and I can see how they made simple changes to the outdoor unit in the Heil line to to make the case look different .... the guts I'm sure are the same. Sometimes the warranties are different. They may or may not offer it with the same infinity control ... although I'm sure they do.
 

HoosierBuddy

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any feelings on HEIL products ?

there is a few in my area using them . 1 guy said ha has had no real problems at all in years .

I've had a high efficiency Heil furnace for about 12 years or so. I think I've worked on it 3 times. Twice it needed the igniter sensor module changed. I keep a spare sitting next to it...so that's about a 10 minute job. A little pricey for what it is...I think supplyhouse sells the correct unit for $100 ish.

Once the fan started vibrating which I figured out was dirt build up on the blower. I took it out and cleaned it and put it back in. That actually too like 2 or 3 hours. Probably because my cleaning method was sketchy.

Other than that it's problem free.

This was one of the nicer ones they sold back then. Hi efficiency. Optional outside combustion air (I did that). DC variable speed fan motor. 2 stage 70,000 or 100,000.

One other comfort note. At the same time I installed that I upgraded my old mercury thermostats to digital. Much better. This furnace will hold 70 degrees all day long. With the mercury t-stat there was likely a 2 or 3 degree swing before it would call for heat. So about the time you'd be chilly and pull on a sweater, the heat call would finally come and it would run until you were starting to sweat and then shut off. I guess it wasn't that dramatic...but anyone still using a round old style t-stat with the mercury tilt switch needs to take that to the proper disposal site and get a new unit.

Phil
 

danski0224

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any feelings on HEIL products ?

there is a few in my area using them . 1 guy said ha has had no real problems at all in years .

The high end stuff is super quiet, if the ductwork is up to snuff.

Two people can stand next to a running condenser and have a normal conversation.

Use the so-called "super coil" evaporator. Big difference in cooling capacity and airflow restriction.
 

American Locomotive

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units 1st half of life was run WRONG ...... owner installed and his PRO friend hooked up and fired it . . . he NEVER did the gas / air flow adjustments . the screws were in the factory settings . the furnace was on 15min / off 10 min all day long for years . we had local company come check it out and fixed / adjusted it and perfect since .

then the fan unit went south last winter and was 3 days out for replacement they had trouble to find . its going o.k. for now . . .

then the gas control valve was having problems and got bypassed and made to run single stage .

so its time for it to go and start fresh .
What furnace do you have now? There really isn't much to a furance. It's literally just a gas valve, a fan, a heat exchanger and a control board inside a metal box.

$6,500 will buy you A LOT of spare parts for your current furnace. Shoot, considering most furnaces have 10-25 year HX warranties, you could probably outright buy a new HX, new control board, new blower, new draft inducer - basically completely replace every part of the furnace and still come out ahead.

If the heat exchanger still looks good, I wouldn't even begin to consider replacing the furnace unless it was some old 70% efficiency dinosaur from 1970.
 

American Locomotive

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Looks like most if not all parts are still available. Why not just get a new gas valve and control board if the heat exchanger still looks good?

Same thing with the AC. 10 years old is not particularly old. It's probably an r410a system anyways.
 

American Locomotive

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Okay, at 22 years old the AC is getting pretty long in the tooth. But, once again, if it's working fine there is really no reason to replace it. A new R410a system will not pay for itself.
 

Showkey

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Okay, at 22 years old the AC is getting pretty long in the tooth. But, once again, if it's working fine there is really no reason to replace it. A new R410a system will not pay for itself.

Agree but there is merit in proactive replacement on your time line and price/feature comparison.

Versus the AC craps out on the hottest week in July and there’s a long wait for install or poor choice in units and pricing.

22 years is close to end of life.
 

American Locomotive

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I guess what it comes down to is 2 or 3 weeks without AC is worth premptively spending $6000 that you might not need to? That system could go another 20 years. Who knows. For me personally, I could deal with just opening a window and running fans for a little while if my system died during the summer. I would not bother preemptively replacing a perfectly working AC system. However, I am in good health, and it doesn't usually get above 90 here during the summer, so I can deal with heat for a bit. That might not be true for OP.

For the furnace? I would just order a spare control board and gas valve if I had doubts, rather than replace the entire furnace. Ofcourse it doesn't hurt to take a look at the heat exchanger...
 

danski0224

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Almost all people I have encountered fold their bravado quickly when the AC takes a dump when it's needed.

Even those that won't actually die as a result of a broken AC system act like it.

If one lives where it gets below freezing, a dead furnace (beyond reasonable repair, not a cracked HX scam) can result in property damage.

An "emergency" replacement usually leaves no time to make system modifications, much less actually installing it correctly.

I always recommend a proactive approach to HVAC equipment replacement (and there is no way to accurately call end of life). This keeps the down time on your schedule, not on or near the coldest/hottest day of the year.
 

American Locomotive

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The only thing that can condemn a furnace beyond repair would be a cracked HX. There is nothing to a furnace. They have like 5 parts. It's a gas valve, heat exchanger, control board, a blower and maybe a draft inducer. You can keep one of every part (save the heat exchanger) on the shelf for well under a grand. Shoot, heat exchangers for most furnaces are not too unreasonable either. Certainly a lot less than $6,000 installed.

If your AC dies, just get a $200 window unit to tide you over until it can be replaced.

"Proactive replacement" of HVAC equipment is just absurd and wasteful with the highly variable life span of HVAC equipment. Just be prepared. Keep spare parts on the shelf, a few space heaters, and a window AC in the basement. That will keep you covered for 99% of scenarios without needing to spend $11,000 every 10 years on a new system.

But I am also a handy person that understands a furnace is just about the simplest thing ever, and not some big scary box full of enigmas.
 
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danski0224

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The only thing that can condemn a furnace beyond repair would be a cracked HX. There is nothing to a furnace. They have like 5 parts. It's a gas valve, heat exchanger, control board, a blower and maybe a draft inducer. You can keep one of every part (save the heat exchanger) on the shelf for well under a grand. Shoot, heat exchangers for most furnaces are not too unreasonable either. Certainly a lot less than $6,000 installed.

And just exactly how many HVAC companies are testing a furnace with a combustion analyzer to determine if the HX is indeed cracked?

And if it is, and if you can get one, and if you have to pay someone to do it, how much is the labor going to be? News flash- suppliers DO NOT stock HX's for older equipment- it has to be ordered and shipped in. Some, like Lennox, raise prices on older parts because they can and want to sell a new piece of equipment. Can a repair that is >/= about half of the replacement cost of a new one (whatever it is) be justified?

So many here ***** and whine about HVAC repair prices, yet so-called "book time" for automotive repair is given a pass.

"Flat rate" is no different from "book time".

If your AC dies, just get a $200 window unit to tide you over until it can be replaced.

Yup, and when the AC dies in the middle of the heat wave, the stores that sell window AC units will be out of stock. Good luck with that one.

"Proactive replacement" of HVAC equipment is just absurd and wasteful with the highly variable life span of HVAC equipment. Just be prepared. Keep spare parts on the shelf, a few space heaters, and a window AC in the basement. That will keep you covered for 99% of scenarios without needing to spend $11,000 every 10 years on a new system.

But I am also a handy person that understands a furnace is just about the simplest thing ever, and not some big scary box full of enigmas.

I would never tell someone to just simply replace stuff "just because". Being proactive *****- why replace a water heater before it starts leaking all over the place? That's just stupid. /s

However, when you factor in a piss poor existing installation (most of the time), customer complaints related to that piss poor install or oversized equipment, the "I'm moving soon" story which means that a home inspector will call out older but functioning HVAC equipment then a replacement can be justified.

Why rip out a functional kitchen or bathroom "just because"? That's a waste of money and resources and landfill space too.

Spare parts can go bad. Seals in a gas valve. Circuit boards can deteriorate (although this is less common). Why tie up a couple/few hundred dollars in spare parts inventory "just because"? That's a waste of money too. An igniter and flame sensor, absolutely have an extra one. Those don't go bad in the box.
 
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American Locomotive

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It's all about analyzing your risks, mitigating potential damage, having contingency plans in place.

Yup, and when the AC dies in the middle of the heat wave, the stores that sell window AC units will be out of stock. Good luck with that one.
Let's look at OP's location: Finger Lakes region, NY. The average high is 83°F in July, with lows of <60°F at night. The worst they're going to experience is mildly uncomfortable afternoons that quickly turn into cool summer nights. I can endure that for a few weeks if it means not spending $6,000 years before I had to.

If OP can't tolerate a few weeks of 80 degrees, and is worried about his system failing, then he could be "proactive" and buy a window air-conditioner now for $200 as an insurance policy. That's better than $6,000 now to replace a system that could go another 10 years.
I would never tell someone to just simply replace stuff "just because". Being proactive *****- why replace a water heater before it starts leaking all over the place?
That's apples vs. oranges. A water heater that lets go on a finished level of a home can cause tens of thousands of dollars in damage. An air conditioner that let's go in an upstate New York house is just going to cause tens of days of mild discomfort.

My water heater lives in my unfinished basement with a stone floor. Our last water heater just went 27 years before it started leaking. We would have replaced it 2x unnecessarily by now if we were "proactive". Even if my heater was in a finished space that could cause damage, I would do things to mitigate risk before replacing it proactively. I'd have a large pan that drains outside with an alarm sensor and an emergency automatic shut-off valve. Failure proof? No, but neither is a new heater, either.
Spare parts can go bad. Seals in a gas valve. Circuit boards can deteriorate (although this is less common). Why tie up a couple/few hundred dollars in spare parts inventory "just because"? That's a waste of money too. An igniter and flame sensor, absolutely have an extra one. Those don't go bad in the box.
There is no guarantee a brand-new furnace will be reliable either. New devices are statistically far more likely to fail than ones that have been running a while. Look up "Bathtub Curve".

A few hundred dollars for a control board and a gas valve to put on the shelf is an insurance policy. If you pay $6,000 for a furnace and replace it every 15 years - you're effectively paying $400 year. You could replace the gas valve and circuit board every single YEAR in your existing furnace for that amount.

It's up to the OP to decide what sort of risk he's willing to deal with. For me, $11,000 is a serious chunk of change, and I'd rather just keep a gas valve on the shelf and a 10k BTU window unit in the basement if my HVAC let go at a bad time. I'd basically only do a full replacement for a failed HX that's NLA. For me, I've calculated the risks and decided it's something I can deal with it if the time comes. Maybe for OP, that's not the case.
 
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sweetk30

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Location
finger lakes area upstate ,ny
My area of figer lakes its mid 90's a lot . Lots of humidity . The way mother nature is changing its getting warmer / humid in summer seasons here .

2 elderly fam members here with me have a few medical problems and reliable hvac is a must for there cummfort .
 
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