mercifiknow
Well-known member
You were right about the cost!
Tools of Japan
- Thread starter Frankstools
- Start date
pizza
Well-known member
new adjustable wrenches. first impressions are very good. will write more soon.
TOP Hyper Adjustable Wrench Zero (Hyper Monkey Zero) HM-32
Lobtex Lobster W-ZERO Hybrid adjustable angle wrench UM30XGB
Lobtex Lobster W-ZERO Hybrid adjustable angle wrenchUM36XGB
FuzzyTiger
Well-known member
Very cool! I've heard good things about the lobster wrenches.
new adjustable wrenches. first impressions are very good. will write more soon.
TOP Hyper Adjustable Wrench Zero (Hyper Monkey Zero) HM-32
Lobtex Lobster W-ZERO Hybrid adjustable angle wrench UM30XGB
Lobtex Lobster W-ZERO Hybrid adjustable angle wrenchUM36XGB
On a side note I received my Koken 3726Z-280 and it has the same rough finish in the recessed switch area. Also noticed Hazet and Stahlwille ratchets have the same thing.
KnurledNut
Well-known member
Picked up a used set of 4 Muromoto Merry Palm Pliers. (Flat, round, needle, bent needle.)
Knipex and Lindstrom included in the photo for size comparison.
Knipex and Lindstrom included in the photo for size comparison.
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mercifiknow
Well-known member
Koken question:
I have the regular chrome ratchets in 1/4”-1/2” sizes and love them. Also have the standard sockets. I have not bought Zeal’s yet but need to get deep sockets now. Should I get the zeal’s this time or just standard? I do have a need for the thin/shallow socket walls as I’m working on German vehicles and Japanese. I normally have to use a set of 3/8” SnapOn deep sockets in the tight spaces but am seeing I need a full ratchet size range.
Thanks!
I have the regular chrome ratchets in 1/4”-1/2” sizes and love them. Also have the standard sockets. I have not bought Zeal’s yet but need to get deep sockets now. Should I get the zeal’s this time or just standard? I do have a need for the thin/shallow socket walls as I’m working on German vehicles and Japanese. I normally have to use a set of 3/8” SnapOn deep sockets in the tight spaces but am seeing I need a full ratchet size range.
Thanks!
Dave455
Well-known member
Personally, I would get the regular deep sockets.
Couple of reasons -
Firstly, part of the attraction of the Z Series / Zeal line is that they are low profile. A deep socket, by definition, isn’t low profile.
Secondly, you already have regular handles. The Z Series / Zeal sockets are designed to be used with handles from the same range, as the tolerances are reduced. A Z Series ratchet will work with a regular socket, but could be tight the other way.
Thirdly, for general use, the regular tools are going to be more durable. Yes, I know KoKen say Z series exceed the minimum standards etc etc, but I’m sure the regular tools do too.
Finally, if you have any sort of OCD, you will want your stuff matching, and the matte / satin finish of the Z Series won’t match the regular tools.
If you really need thin wall deep sockets, then Z Series is the way to go, but I use the regular tools on most of my work, including German cars, and have found no applications where I need something thinner. I do have some Z Series, but usually when I use it I need the low profile aspect.
Of course, if you simply like the Z Series, get some! This is Garage Journal after all….!
pizza
Well-known member
do you say that from experience? curious which ratchets zeal stuff doesn't fit well on so i can avoid them.
my deep (and other length) zeal sockets fit fine on my regular koken ratchet (3776N). not hard to get them on or off. i have not had issues with them on any other ratchet either (random cn/tw ****, nepros).
the only compatibility issue i've discovered with the zeal series so far is between the koken wobble-fix extensions and the standard (short) zeal sockets, but i'd say that's more the wobble-fix's fault if anything because the anvil insertion depth is nonstandard.
documented in detail here:
Tools of Japan
Koken adapter and ktc socket but needs the plastic.... Nice. One of the Japanese tool review youtubers I saw had wrapped plastic tape on the end of his impact socket in lieu of the plastic sleeve from the manufacturer.
www.garagejournal.com
if there is a reason to avoid zeal deep sockets, i would not guess that tolerance (ratchet compatibility) is it.
i would consider other issues that Dave mentioned though like:
- which you think looks cooler (i think the scalloped look of the zeal sockets is sweet)
- how thin-walled they are... look in the catalog. the dimensions are well documented. for example, 10mm deep wall zeal is 14mm wide, 10mm 6pt deep (both flat drive and surface drive variants) is 14.5mm wide. less of a difference than i thought.
- what matches the look of your other tools more
- and finally what kind of stuff you work on. i can't say this from experience because i don't work on super rusty stuff, but i remember some people saying that the zeal fit on rusty fasteners might be a little tight.
would you recommend flat or surface drive for general purpose? is surface drive wobbly/sloppy on fasteners?
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GrantCee
Well-known member
Same here. I've experienced no incompatibility between Zeal, regular Ko-ken, and US-made 1/4 and 3/8 sockets and ratchets. None.
If someone has actually, personally, encountered "stuck" Zeal sockets on a standard ratchet of decent make, I'd like to hear about it.
Gregthegadgetguy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2021
- Messages
- 67
I have tested Zeal extensions and sockets on nepros ratchets in all sizes and will say the 3/8 cross compatibility fitment is much better than 1/4 and 1/2. The picture below shows it well.
1/2 ratchet with Zeal extension causes the quick release to stick down. 3/8 fitment is perfect on the extensions and Nepros socket fitment is just as good as Zeals. 1/4 with Zeal extension also has quick release stuck down but not really an issue because the button is still easily accessible
1/2 ratchet with Zeal extension causes the quick release to stick down. 3/8 fitment is perfect on the extensions and Nepros socket fitment is just as good as Zeals. 1/4 with Zeal extension also has quick release stuck down but not really an issue because the button is still easily accessible
Dave455
Well-known member
No, that was just what I read in KoKen’s literature.do you say that from experience? curious which ratchets zeal stuff doesn't fit well on so i can avoid them.
my deep (and other length) zeal sockets fit fine on my regular koken ratchet (3776N). not hard to get them on or off. i have not had issues with them on any other ratchet either (random cn/tw ****, nepros).
the only compatibility issue i've discovered with the zeal series so far is between the koken wobble-fix extensions and the standard (short) zeal sockets, but i'd say that's more the wobble-fix's fault if anything because the anvil insertion depth is nonstandard.
documented in detail here:
Tools of Japan
Koken adapter and ktc socket but needs the plastic.... Nice. One of the Japanese tool review youtubers I saw had wrapped plastic tape on the end of his impact socket in lieu of the plastic sleeve from the manufacturer.
if there is a reason to avoid zeal deep sockets, i would not guess that tolerance (ratchet compatibility) is it.
i would consider other issues that Dave mentioned though like:
the only koken sockets i own so far are zeal and nutgrip, but i want to try some of their regular line for fun next time i need a different set.
- which you think looks cooler (i think the scalloped look of the zeal sockets is sweet)
- how thin-walled they are... look in the catalog. the dimensions are well documented. for example, 10mm deep wall zeal is 14mm wide, 10mm 6pt deep (both flat drive and surface drive variants) is 14.5mm wide. less of a difference than i thought.
- what matches the look of your other tools more
- and finally what kind of stuff you work on. i can't say this from experience because i don't work on super rusty stuff, but i remember some people saying that the zeal fit on rusty fasteners might be a little tight.
would you recommend flat or surface drive for general purpose? is surface drive wobbly/sloppy on fasteners?
They state that the Z Series / Zeal tools are made to tighter tolerances to achieve a more secure fit. Not just between socket and fastener, but also between square drive and socket.
If that’s the case, and nothing is lost in translation, then a Z series ratchet will be well within tolerance and will definitely fit any socket, but a Z Series socket MIGHT be a tight fit on another ratchet.
In practice, I have a good deal of the regular line, and some Z Series / Zeal, and have had no issues. I only have the Z Series / Zeal in 3/8 though, so can’t vouch for others.
Greg makes a good point above though, regarding quick release ratchets. KoKen do explain that the detent geometry is different in the Z Series / Zeal (which it is).
I don’t own any surface drive so can’t comment on those, but I find the regular ”flat drive” to be very good. They have “off corner” engagement, and the “flats” of the socket are actually slightly curved, as shown below. I use mine on everything - automotive, machine tools, rusty industrial bolts etc, and have never had problems.
pizza
Well-known member
thanks for the info.
aside from QR button stick, do the zeal extensions lock reliably in 1/2" and 1/4" nepros ratchets, or is it borderline (or just fiddly to get it to lock)?
i bought nepros wobble-fix extensions and kind of regret it now, and so i'll be buying others to try.
i'm looking for recommendations for 1/4" and 3/8" extensions for koken zeal, koken regular, and nepros ratchets.
naturally, i'm considering koken zeal, koken regular, and nepros extensions.
zeal sounds questionable for the nepros ratchets.
has anyone tried the regular koken extensions (e.g. 3760 series for 3/8") on nepros ratchets? that's what i'm leaning towards. i do like the knurling.
Dave455
Well-known member
I can go and try one if you like. I can’t see there being any problem. Both are essentially “regular” tools, but the Nepros have a higher standard of finish.
Edit - they work just fine. There might be just a little more longitudinal float on the KoKen, but the extension I just tried is quite heavily used, the Nepros less so. In the real world you wouldn’t notice, KoKen extensions are very good to use.
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Gregthegadgetguy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2021
- Messages
- 67
I do not recommend 1/2 zeal extensions on Nepros, it’s not a good fit. The 1/4 size do lock and I actually prefer the almost flush QR but let’s be honest we all run quick spinners on 1/4 and 3/8 so it’s a non issue.
Zeal and Nepros do work good together in 1/4 and 3/8.
I have never really been a fan of wobble. I keep only one wobble in 1/4 and 3/8. I try to use the zeal universal joints when more flex is needed.
toddmorr
Well-known member
i have....3/8 zeal sockets on a Snap On stubby 3/8 nonflex dual80 ratchet. Really tight, unmistakably. And on an SK 45170, really tight. Certainly not a deal breaker, but I do have to work at getting them off.
BlitzcrankJapan
Well-known member
I have many Koken sockets and Koken Zeal sockets.
My recommendation for general use is normal Koken sockets.
The main disadvantage of the Zeal sockets is that the tolerances are held too tight. It's like getting lucky (or unlucky in this case) with a socket that is the perfect size to fit the nut.
The problem occurs when the nut is slightly deformed. Any minor nicks or rounding that smear the metal of the nut will make it hard to get the Zeal sockets on.
Even on late model cars I have found this problem many times when working on undercarriage bolts which are subject to road grime build up and rust. The nut often has to be scraped with a flat head or the socket knocked on with the end of the ratchet.
I also do not recommend surface drive sockets for general use. They work as advertised. How ever they fit loosely by design. This gives them some slop and a socket will not stay on a nut by itself. Or a nut will not stay in a socket easily.
My recommendation for general use is normal Koken sockets.
The main disadvantage of the Zeal sockets is that the tolerances are held too tight. It's like getting lucky (or unlucky in this case) with a socket that is the perfect size to fit the nut.
The problem occurs when the nut is slightly deformed. Any minor nicks or rounding that smear the metal of the nut will make it hard to get the Zeal sockets on.
Even on late model cars I have found this problem many times when working on undercarriage bolts which are subject to road grime build up and rust. The nut often has to be scraped with a flat head or the socket knocked on with the end of the ratchet.
I also do not recommend surface drive sockets for general use. They work as advertised. How ever they fit loosely by design. This gives them some slop and a socket will not stay on a nut by itself. Or a nut will not stay in a socket easily.
RoundedNut
Well-known member
Hmmm, by design and standards, all mating tools SHOULD have slop as "male" ends are to be slightly smaller and "female" ends be slightly larger. So the best quality tools should have a well defined amount of slop as opposed to being "tight", and should be compatible with all tools that meet standard dimensional specs.
Furthermore, the best designs will "tighten up" upon application of force or other use of the tool. This is why flank/side/etc profiles are a big improvement.
IMO, if these Koken Zeal tools are not fully compatible with standards, then they are an inferior design.
mercifiknow
Well-known member
Interesting. Sounds like I should choose the regular sockets.
I’ll weigh in the Koken sockets issue. I’ve found that if I put the regular sockets on my used SnapOn ratchets, they are difficult to remove and put on. Tolerances must be tight. If I put them on my Craftsman no issue (except the Craftsman’s ratchets break-lol).
I’ll weigh in the Koken sockets issue. I’ve found that if I put the regular sockets on my used SnapOn ratchets, they are difficult to remove and put on. Tolerances must be tight. If I put them on my Craftsman no issue (except the Craftsman’s ratchets break-lol).
pizza
Well-known member
more thoughts on these wrenches...
i say you can't go wrong with either.
the overall dynamic jaw wiggle on them is remarkably low. less than any other adjustable i've used. granted, i've used mostly ****** ones, but it seems a bit tighter than bahco 90xx series (specifically 9031-T) which i already thought was great:
these japanese wrenches are the best i've seen so far.
the TOP might have slightly less jaw wiggle than the Lobtex, but i think that may be because the Lobtex has an additional compressible element that the TOP doesn't have:
if i wiggle the jaw around gently (not enough to overcome the "G-Less" spring force), it feels similar to the TOP.
needless to say, in addition to low jaw wobble, you can't really get it out of your adjusted width by wobbling it either. i think this is at least partially due to the worm being split:
if i work the dynamic jaw around hard for like 20 cycles, i can get it to move maybe a hair, but i'm moving it in a way that wouldn't happen when you're working on fasteners.
on both, the worm is is nice and smooth without slop (backlash). the TOP has more worm adjustment friction than the Lobtex. i kind of like how the Lobtex is so buttery, but i think it would be possible to accidentally adjust it if you brush it against something just right. it wouldn't be that easy, but it is possible. the TOP on the other hand resists adjusting when i gently drag my thumb over it unlike the Lobtex. in addition, the TOP's worm is more recessed which would further shield against inadvertent adjustment. when resting on a table, the Lobtex's worm makes contact with the surface, but the TOP's worm does not. TOP shown above, Lobtex below:
the TOP's worm isn't so tight or recessed that it's hard to adjust though. it feels fine.
one quirk of the Lobtex is that they don't close all the way. they only close down to 8mm. i show this in one of the pics above (2nd pic with them all side by side). this probably doesn't matter, but i recently did a job where it would have. i was using an adjustable wrench to push a plastic collar (white) down a small diameter tube (green) onto a hose barb the tube was attached to:
i needed sub-8mm for that.
like i said, you can't go wrong with either, but i'm thinking that most people would go for the TOP. the TOP is also a little cheaper!
however, i'm keeping the Lobtex wrenches in my main bag because i like the clean look (and smooth feel and corrosion resistance) of chrome. also, the Lobtex wrenches are lighter per unit length because they have more material removed from the handle, and i like that a lot. if you have specific requirements for overall length and jaw opening, looking at the model specs could help you decide between them. the TOP also comes in more sizes.
i'm giving away the TOP to my brother, but i'm ordering a thin-jaw version for myself (TOP HT-32).
and for the real weirdos out there (like me), here's the VOC report:
the Lobtex was odorless out of the box. the TOP was smelly from whatever they oiled it with, but it's aired out now and is no longer smelly.
i often use tools in clean environments, and i don't like working with smelly **** when i don't have to. for example, i don't like the knipex cobra textured dip material because it reeks. it even smells up your hands for a while after you use the tool. the pliers wrench smooth dip on the other hand is odorless.
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Meursault74
Well-known member
I may have slipped into starting a Japanese Pliers Collection. I just purchased the Engineer Screw pliers, the rest I already had. Some may have been in the family going back decades.
Meursault74
Well-known member
4 of them are slip joint. When I took the picture, I was trying to show the "Japan" logos. I now see two of them don't show the slip joint in the picture. I guess my camera details aren't that good, but my word play is OK, huh? Only the Lineman on the left isn't a slip joint.
Qualitytools
Well-known member
But one can tell by the offset rivet
Meursault74
Well-known member
That's true, but I guess Ralf11 missed that in the few seconds he looked at the picture. I know slip joint pliers are not the most exciting of tools to scrutinize. These are however my only Japanese tools to contribute to this thread.
Chrome Vanadium Cody
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2021
- Messages
- 663
It is me who slipped up by not checking the back of my monitor to see the other side - offset rivets are indeed suspicious but not determinant
Qualitytools
Well-known member
I like your sense of humor, thanks for the laugh as I imagine you looking on the back side of the monitor
GrantCee
Well-known member
Hey, Metric Tech — looks like it's been two years since you got the KTC grease gun. I find myself in the market for a lever grease gun, and remembered this. Are you still liking it? Any issues? Do you miss cartridges?And a really nice KTC grease gun from Franks.
Anyone else have one of these?
I have the smaller (200cc capacity ?) one and initially had a hard time filling grease and bleeding air out of the gun. In one instance, i painstakingly filled grease into the gun and used a plastic mallet to get the air out using light taps BAD IDEA !!! the piston rod which was retracted and held in place by the notch slipped (due to the tapping) and all the grease that i had filled, shot out in a blob and landed on my living room floor !!
I have now learnt to fill grease efficiently (least air) using hands (gloves worn obviously) and purge air occasionally during use without de-coupling the tube/can from the pump handle completely. Now that i'm able to use it without getting half the grease on the floor/myself instead of my car, i'm very happy with it. It came with a flex hose and rigid tube attachment and i only use the flex hose which is of very high quality. I grease the U-joints on my Y61 Patrol (GU Patrol for the Ozzies) regularly and find it a joy to use since just a few pumps are sufficient. The inbuilt locking jaws of the delivery tube (flex and rigid) are better than the manual locking mechanisms found on other designs due to being slimmer and able to get into narrow spots. Some times the locking mechanism does not seal fully and a little bit of grease does escape but wiggling / adjusting the delivery tube position wrt to the grease ******/zerk will solve that problem.
Hope this helps.
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GrantCee
Well-known member
Good to hear! Perhaps you could help me understand how it works:
I gather from your description that to load it, you pull the side knob back and latch it into the notch. When it's filled, you move the knob out of the notch to allow the spring to push the grease into the head, correct? Big question: does the knob move to the front as grease is used, to give you a visual indication of how much is left?
Joe Piro
Well-known member
What is behind the polymer rings on the Nepros sockets?
I have almost figured out what brands of sockets to buy to replace lost tools. I am OCD enough to want uniformity for each drive size and type (shallow, standard or deep) but I will probably purchase different brands for 1/4. 3/8, and 1/2 inch drive. I've about decided to get the Nepros in 1/2 inch drive. However I am curious about what they look like behind the polymer rings. Are they as polished behind the ring as they are everywhere else? If I remove the ring, or perhaps don't replace them when they wear out, what will the socket look like?
I have almost figured out what brands of sockets to buy to replace lost tools. I am OCD enough to want uniformity for each drive size and type (shallow, standard or deep) but I will probably purchase different brands for 1/4. 3/8, and 1/2 inch drive. I've about decided to get the Nepros in 1/2 inch drive. However I am curious about what they look like behind the polymer rings. Are they as polished behind the ring as they are everywhere else? If I remove the ring, or perhaps don't replace them when they wear out, what will the socket look like?
sorry i dont have experience with Nepros sockets but i just wanted to say that you Sir, are at a completely different level of OCD altogether !! LoL
Thats right. To load grease (on my version of the KTC grease gun), you un-screw the grease tube from the pump (head), pull back the spring loaded handle and lock it into the notch. Then you fill the tube with grease (taking care not to bump the spring loaded handle out of the notch, which it is locked into currently) - best to use hands. after this, you screw the pump (head) back into the grease tube (again take care not to bump the spring loaded handle locked into the notch) and after it screws fully into the pump head, you release the spring loaded handle from the notch. Now it will push on the grease inside the tube but there will be some air too. Now you loosen the grease tube about 2-3 turns so that the trapped air escapes out. Take care not to loosen the grease tube too much !!
As you start using the grease gun, the spring loaded handle pushes on the grease and moves inwards/front (its a reasonably strong spring) but at some point, the air trapped inside will cause cavitation. Then you have to tap the grease gun gently a couple of times, unscrew the tube a couple of turns, release the air and you'll be good to go once again.
Joe Piro
Well-known member
I originally posted this in April 2021 when I started shopping for tool replacements. It was one of my first posts on GJ.
So to stay on topic.... I sincerely accept your comment as a compliment and GJ banter that I enjoy. But I wish I could just walk into a store and select from Nepros, KTC (regular tools), Ko-ken, Proto, Wright etc. ... I see from other posts that there are stores like this in Japan. So in lieu of a long trip, I'll have to purchase a variety of sets (and probably love them all) and re-sell my third and fourth choices and end up with all first and second choice selections.
I hope there will be some interest in discussing technical details if I start another thread about chrome plating and manufacturing.... but each step in manufacturing a Japanese socket (staying on topic) from forging to heat treating, embossing, polishing etc. is a distinct process and not all manufacturers spend the same amount of cost and overhead on each step. Hence some tools with excellent metallurgy have little in the way of markings (mfg'er, COO, size, etc.). Some have satin chrome instead of polished and some mix satin and polish. In photos, some of the zeal satin finish look more "pebbly" than satin.
For example, I can't wait to actually hold some Ko-ken sockets, It's hard to tell from photos, but although they are highly esteemed by many GJ members, they look like they are not machined to a close external "smooth" specification?
BTW I am a classroom instructor, and I know when I get carried away with detail some eye's glaze over with boredom... but others share the z-eal (LOL... on topic). I guess you're right.... I do take OCD to another level !
And I also wrote "Because I have overcome my obsession that all my wrenches and sockets must be made by the same manufacturer, I am interested in sampling different tools in order to choose."
So to stay on topic.... I sincerely accept your comment as a compliment and GJ banter that I enjoy. But I wish I could just walk into a store and select from Nepros, KTC (regular tools), Ko-ken, Proto, Wright etc. ... I see from other posts that there are stores like this in Japan. So in lieu of a long trip, I'll have to purchase a variety of sets (and probably love them all) and re-sell my third and fourth choices and end up with all first and second choice selections.
I hope there will be some interest in discussing technical details if I start another thread about chrome plating and manufacturing.... but each step in manufacturing a Japanese socket (staying on topic) from forging to heat treating, embossing, polishing etc. is a distinct process and not all manufacturers spend the same amount of cost and overhead on each step. Hence some tools with excellent metallurgy have little in the way of markings (mfg'er, COO, size, etc.). Some have satin chrome instead of polished and some mix satin and polish. In photos, some of the zeal satin finish look more "pebbly" than satin.
For example, I can't wait to actually hold some Ko-ken sockets, It's hard to tell from photos, but although they are highly esteemed by many GJ members, they look like they are not machined to a close external "smooth" specification?
BTW I am a classroom instructor, and I know when I get carried away with detail some eye's glaze over with boredom... but others share the z-eal (LOL... on topic). I guess you're right.... I do take OCD to another level !
pizza
Well-known member
@Joe Piro if you are so interested in surface finish, i suggest asking for pics of the specific socket sets you're interested in. maybe you'll get them 
here are some closeups of zeal sockets if you haven't seen them.
www.garagejournal.com
i don't have nepros in 1/2" but can take a rubber ring off of a socket from my 3/8" SAE set and take a picture if you want.
here are some closeups of zeal sockets if you haven't seen them.
Tools of Japan
I've read a few comments and reviews saying that Engineer pliers are a bit soft :sad:. Their screw removing pliers are useful if kept just for that task though. I really like the small PZ-57s. I have both the Engineer and the Tone screw removing pliers. That's what happens when you blindly...
www.garagejournal.com
i don't have nepros in 1/2" but can take a rubber ring off of a socket from my 3/8" SAE set and take a picture if you want.
GrantCee
Well-known member
The Ko-ken sockets I have are extremely smooth, with a very slightly "brushed" finish to them — not mirror polished like U.S. sockets tend to be. It can't be felt, but it can be seen under just the right lighting.
Those with a satin finish (the bottoms of ZEAL sockets, and the nut-grip sockets) are slightly "pebbly", as you often find on the better German tools.
Every piece of Ko-ken tooling I own exhibits very close attention to detail and superb workmanship.