Anyone collect vintage Taps and dies?

[rustyzman]

Since there are some screw extractors in here, I thought I would share a few of my oldest ones. Using screw extractors usually indicates a pretty rough day in general... The big one I think would indicate a Very Rough day (unless it is a pipe, but then this would probably be the wrong tool for the job.). Luckily, it remains unused.

 

[rustyzman]

Also a couple of thread restorers. These have been seriously handy over the years on things that were very much not readily replaceable or very custom, needing touch up.

 

[humber2]

Is the copper strip a user addition?

I needed a new OTC anvil as the original had seen some enthusiastic action before I could use it.

 

[rustyzman]

Is the copper strip a user addition?

I needed a new OTC anvil as the original had seen some enthusiastic action before I could use it.

Yes, I added that to it. I found the aluminum anvil is so easily damaged that I wanted something a bit easier to replace when needed. I think the snap on version of this tool has a brass wear plate. The shop I was at used a lot of this copper for a part we made, so I had lots of it available in the reject and scrap pile. Brass would be a better choice.
It is a great tool.

When I was still wrenching I had a three drawer cabinet about 18"x18"x12" on top of one of my side boxes at work that was all dedicated to drilling, tapping, bolt extraction and thread repair tools. Living in the land of rust makes bolt removal/thread repair very, very important as many out there know. That tool certainly saved more than one oddball irreplaceable part. Have both UNC/UNF and Metric chasers for it.

Later into the next career I used it to improve the overall threads on a big Yama Seiki lathe chuck drawtube that had incomplete, shallow threads from the factory. Had no other machine large enough to chuck it up in and pickup the thread to single point it. So this grabbed what little thread was on there and brought it down deep enough to make if function properly. Would have been a lot of downtime and money if we had to buy a new drawtube instead.

Really, anything to do with making or repairing threads is just inherently cool to me.

 

[humber2]

Here’s another system I have made by JW Pickavant in the 1960’s

 

[rustyzman]

Here’s another system I have made by JW Pickavant in the 1960’s

I like that set! Hand operated thread rolling system, very nice.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Really, anything to do with making or repairing threads is just inherently cool to me.

Agreed. You can't get more fundamental to fasteners than the fastening. And it looks like we have some similar tastes. I will see your extractors and raise you a reamer set.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

It's amazing how many approaches there were to thread restorers, re-threaders, and chasers. I just posted these "MAC" branded Mac Allied Tools Corp examples in the MAC thread, so I will keep it light and provide a link to see more here. These solid nut type chasers were fairly common, apparently, in the 50's, and Provincial thinks most of them came from JAW as the OEM, but I still have not seen another branded "MAC", and the "TALLMADGE, O." marking on these boxes makes me think they're earlier, probably late 40's.

There's a notice on the bottom of the boxes explaining that they are being color-coded for user convenience. The copper colored box with the copper-plated finish re-threaders are NC. The blue colored box with the blued steel finish re-threaders are NF.

 

[four.cycle]

RE: "...Provincial thinks most of them came from JAW as the OEM..."

Herbrand sold a very similar set of thread chasers - all nestled into a wood tray, inside a cardboard box. (Later packaged in a small plastic box.)

Looks like he's onto something.

(for those just joining: Jawco / Jaw Mfg. Co., P.O. Box 213, Reading, PA 19603-0213 / http://www.jawco.com/index.html )

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Herbrand sold a very similar set of thread chasers - all nestled into a wood tray, inside a cardboard box:

Cornwell, too. And the cardboard box on the Cornwell opened the same way, from the top. But the block of wood was natural and, while these boxes may have had end flaps, they were never meant to open like that. The tray just slides in and out. My other skepticism about Jawco as the OEM is Jawco starting in 1950. If I saw verified Jawco sets in the same wooden tray in the same sliding cardboard box, I'd be convinced and have to rethink my late 40s dating.

I have other thread restorers. I have to say I admire the compactness and simplicity of these nuts and running them on and off with a wrench.

 

[four.cycle]

Hindsight is always 20-20. Unfortunately I do not have a photo image of the Herbrand set in the wooden tray inside the cardboard box, but as I recall, the tray slid out of the end of the box. (The box may have been just a cardboard sleeve - there aren't any listed on Ebay at the moment to grab a sample.)
(edit again) - pretty sure it was a sleeve - see the second photo in my post above - the set of thread chasers on the right. the 1951 advertisement shows an illustration of a box which opens from the top - none of the ones I've seen listed on ebay were like that - they were like the one in the catalog photo.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

see the second photo in my post above - the set of thread chasers on the right.

I saw it. And I saw that it slides in and out from the end. But it's not the same set. Outlaw has one just like it but with the box branded Cornwell instead of Herbrand, which strongly backs up Provincial's theory that all these various sets of the same solid nut chaser concept were made by JAWCO. See attached photo, which Outlaw provided in the 2021 GS thread where I first posted these. Seeing the Herbrand set with the color-coding (blue-NF, copper-NC) is also a very strong indicator of the same OEM.

the 1951 advertisement shows an illustration of a box which opens from the top - none of the ones I've seen listed on ebay were like that - they were like the one in the catalog photo.

Could be earlier then. They're all very similar, that's for sure. I'd just like to see an example that looked exactly like these "MAC" jobbies. Everything lines up as JAWCO except the Tallmadge and JAWCO's start date. I am trying to gather more info on the Mac Allied Tools Corp timeline in terms of addresses. I could be wrong. Again, there is a 1947 catalog with Tallmadge (just outside of Akron) as the address and a 1948 with Akron. It could be as simple as they just weren't too particular about the address. Maybe they did use Tallmadge and Akron interchangeably in the 50's.

 

[rustyzman]

Agreed. You can't get more fundamental to fasteners than the fastening. And it looks like we have some similar tastes. I will see your extractors and raise you a reamer set.

Sweet! I love how we both have the giant one! If we are going into reamers...this could get dangerous... I may have to dig out some more stuff...
I like that straight spline extractor set. I have a giant one for pipe as well as the classic Blue Point spline extractor set. I always fount the spline styles worked best overall for me as they don't expand the fastener as much.

 

[four.cycle]

I just spoke on the phone with Mr. James Arthur Williamson Jr., the son of the founder of JAW Manufacturing, in Reading, PA. (see post #289 above.)
Mr. Williamson was most helpful and happy to answer my questions.
For reasons I do not understand, I am not able to post this in the "JAWCO" thread.

Mr. Williamson Sr. was approached by two gentlemen from Europe, who made the discovery of a thread-chasing file in France just after WWI. By 1938, they had the money together to make it themselves (as the patent on it had expired) but by then WWII was on the horizon so they held off.
Mr. Williamson Sr. scouted out places where the device could be made, and he narrowed it down to either Akron, Ohio, or Reading, Pennsylvania.
After visiting both locations, he decided that Reading would be a better place to live, and they began making and marketing the tool in 1947, outsourcing some of their product from local machine shops. Mr. Williamson Sr. was the sales manager for the company at that time, which was then known as Krome.
The two older gentlemen, then in their 70s, sold the business to Williamson in 1950, and Jaw Manufacturing was incorporated August 29, 1950.

Jaw Manufacturing was the supplier to Herbrand for the thread chaser dies posted above (post #289.)
They are also the primary supplier for a number of other companies.

They do not supply the thread chasers to Snap-on of Kenosha, Wisconsin. Snap-on buys their thread chasers from A&E Manufacturing (formerly Lang.)

Mr. Williamson Jr. suggested I check my own thread chaser file to see if it was made by Jaw or Lang. He said it would be pretty easy to tell: Jaw cuts the teeth, Lang stamps them.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I just spoke on the phone with Mr. James Arthur Williamson Jr.

Thanks for taking the initiative, 4.c! Fascinating report. I have several questions, though.

...who made the discovery of a thread-chasing file in France just after WWI.

When I see the term "thread file" I picture an actual thread file, of the type that Joseph Nestor patented (1,694,229/Dec 4, 1928) and that Reif & Nestor famously made, prolifically, for many years. You can see one in the photo below and there's another one wrapped up in the NOS Blue-Point TF1124A packaging. They made many types, but the 4-sided 8-thread NU-TRIX No. 1 (11, 12, 13, 14, 16, 18, 20 & 24) type was the most well-known. (It was the thread restorer that the US Army Ordnance Dept specified for all 2nd echelon toolsets during WWII.) The wider one above that one is also a two-side (10 and 14) Reif & Nestor NU-THRED. Jawco also made them, but Reif & Nestor held the patent. Is that what you're referring to? Or are you referring to the solid nut type chaser/re-threader, which you later call a "die"?

Mr. Williamson Sr. scouted out places where the device could be made, and he narrowed it down to either Akron, Ohio, or Reading, Pennsylvania.

Those are interesting choices. Akron is where "Mac Allied Tool Corp" was. And the central and eastern Pennsylvania countryside was dotted with machine shops. Reif & Nestor, which I just discussed above, was located in Lykens, PA.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Jaw Manufacturing was the supplier to Herbrand for the thread chaser dies posted above (post #289.)
They are also the primary supplier for a number of other companies

What did he say about Mac Allied Tool Corp?!

 

[leg17]

I will continue the drift of this thread into screw extractor territory.
Here are a couple of early Cleveland Twist Drill screw extractor sets.
Both sets are marked with the patent date of July 28, 1914.
Patent No. 1,105,535 issued to Julius Roberts of Salina KS with extractors manufactured by Cleveland.
The smaller set looks to have had a paper label, now missing, as the rest of the box is appropriately 'grungy'.
The larger one has faint markings indicating Cleveland as the maker.

EDIT: The marked extractors in the larger set are mis-marked July 23. The smaller set, and the original patent, have the date of July 28. Sometimes you just can't trust your lyin' eyes.

 

[rustyzman]

Funny that you just posted an axle rethreader. I just shot a pic of mine. Cornwell branded.

Adding in the Sav-a-Stud set. One of the greatest thread repair tools of all time. Saved dozens of damaged studs with this. Of course in the shop you never knew the stud was chewed up until you removed the lug nut, then it was on you to repair it for free... My late mentor introduced me to this tool and I remember him for that nugget of knowledge every time I use it.

Also a Snap On rethreader set, complete with the files. I have sets of the General files too.

A Proto tapered spline extractor set and the classic Blue Point spline extractor set.

Then my all time favorites... The Geometric Die Heads. Only a Fette thread rolling head would top these for me, but those are bit out of my price range. Dial these in and make perfect threads all day.

 

[rustyzman]

I will continue the drift of this thread into screw extractor territory.
Here are a couple of early Cleveland Twist Drill screw extractor sets.
Both sets are marked with the patent date of July 28, 1914.
Patent No. 1,105,535 issued to Julius Roberts of Salina KS with extractors manufactured by Cleveland.
The smaller set looks to have had a paper label, now missing, as the rest of the box is appropriately 'grungy'.
The larger one has faint markings indicating Cleveland as the maker.

EDIT: The marked extractors in the larger set are mis-marked July 23. The smaller set, and the original patent, have the date of July 28. Sometimes you just can't trust your lyin eyes.

Wow, and I thought the metal slide box sets were old. Nice Sets!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Here are a couple of early Cleveland Twist Drill screw extractor sets.

Very nice. That reamer set I posted in the wooden box is Cleveland Twist Drill with a telegram codeword on the label on the lid.

Funny that you just posted an axle rethreader.

Mine is all S.A.E. except one opening that is 3/4"-20 marked "E.F." (Extra Fine). I had no idea what is was for, honestly, but poking around turned up Hudson Essex Terraplane.

 

[leg17]

I bought these K-D rethreader sets in the '60s. Used them a few times. They still retain the original mess.
Remember back when you tried to add something potentially useful to your tool box as often as you could afford to?

Interestingly, the coarse and fine threads are colored copper and blue/black, as the earlier posted MAC sets.
Am I sensing a common supplier, likely neither one of the brands shown?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Am I sensing a common supplier, likely neither one of the brands shown?

If you mean neither "MAC" or K-D, that's what 4.c and I have been noodling on incessantly about, and what prompted his call to Jawco. Provincial thinks the OEM was Jawco. I had never seen the copper/NC vs blue/NF thing until the note on the "MAC" sets, but 4.c turned up a photo of a later Herbrand set in a plastic case where that distinction was maintained. Now your K-D set. Somebody started it, it sure looks like it became an industry standard, and it may very well all lead back to Jawco.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I have to say, respectfully, after doing a little poking around, I am even more leery about the 'French thread file story' as the origins of JAWCO that Mr. Williamson, Jr. told 4.c.

As I said, it seems to willfully ignore the famous and popular aforementioned Reif & Nestor tool, patented in nearby Lykens, PA, for what sure looks to be an earlier version of the same exact tool that Jaw Mfg of Reading would later make.

Reif & Nestor had been around for a long time. They had tremendous street cred.



They trademarked the name NU-TRIX for a 4-sided thread file in 1927, patented the 4-sided file in 1928, re-upped the TM in 1938, and, as I said, made and sold them for decades prior to, during, and after WWII. Here's a postwar ad.



The earliest ads I can find for a Jaw Mfg thread file is 1955. It was a very small classifieds box.



When they started advertising it with photos, it was called the NU-THRED (admittedly, a much better name than Reif & Nestor's, but clearly a direct copy effort!) and it looks exactly like the NU-TRIX tool that Reif & Nestor were making for decades, in shape, function, and TPI sizes!



Here's the TM story in a nutshell. Reif & Nestor TM'd NU-TRIX in 1927, first use 1927. JAW TM'd NU-THRED in 1979, claims first use 1946, which I suppose might be the pre-JAW Krome compan Mr. Williamson mentioned. But in 1946 the NU-TRIX tool they obviously copied (again, not French in origin, but a from an old established company one county to the west in Pennsylvania) had already been around for 20 years.



It looks to me like the patent that ran out was Reif & Nestor's, not French, and they moved to an area where the resources and labor for making it were already existing.

I don't mean to be harsh. Strictly speaking, it all seems technically legal. And I appreciate Mr. Williamson even picking up the phone to take 4.c's call about the solid nut type chasers, which is very unusual. But it's a little fishy.

 

[4lug39]

I call this drawer. Well that *****!
I've had these for years but never used them. I prefer the square style extractors.These have saved my *** more times than I can count.Not a thread chasher/saver. This one was worth ever penny. Most of the time its just a 10-32 or 1/4-20 in a frame I'm installing lines or wiring on but a few times I have snapped a tap off in a block or some blind hole all because I was in a hurry and not using the tap correctly.

 

[rustyzman]

I call this drawer. Well that *****!
I've had these for years but never used them. I prefer the square style extractors.These have saved my *** more times than I can count.Not a thread chasher/saver. This one is the one was worth ever penny. Most of the time its just a 10-32 or 1/4-20 in a frame I'm installing lines or wiring on but a few times I have snapped a tap off in a block or some blind hole all because I was in a hurry and not using the tap correctly.

Ah, Walton Tap Extractors... When the bad day of drilling out a broken bolt and re-tapping it goes that extra mile to "oops, the tap broke". Another tool worth its weight in gold when it works for you!

 

[four.cycle]

@leg17 post #297

Cleveland / Cleveland Twist Drill Co., Cleveland, OH / drills, screw extractors / patent 1105535 Jul 28 1914 Julius O. Roberts /

thank you for the patent information. this is all the documentation I have on the company:



< edit > that patent date stamp definitely appears to be 23, not 28. but wrong patent dates stamped on older tools is more common than one would like to believe, unfortunately.

 

[humber2]

If you have, as a backup, a set of 4 prong tap extractors remember to not be using 3 flute taps.

 

[four.cycle]

hopefully we'll get it figured out. thanks for the info.

Reiff & Nestor is still very much alive and well. First time I've heard of them.
I am certain I have one of those square thread restorers around here somewhere. Not a clue where it might be.

 

[leg17]

Ah, Walton Tap Extractors... When the bad day of drilling out a broken bolt and re-tapping it goes that extra mile to "oops, the tap broke". Another tool worth its weight in gold when it works for you!

Yeah, WHEN it works for you. Well said.

 

[rustyzman]

Yeah, WHEN it works for you. Well said.

Yeah, when that does not work I usually end of sacrificing old carbide endmills until the tap is dust (along with some carbide endmill dust). Need to build that tap disintegrator one of these days...

 

[rustyzman]

Reiff and Nestor makes some pretty decent HSS taps. Just went through some making M2.2x.45 STI helicoil threads. Only company that actually had that odd little size in stock and not just a phantom tool in an online catalog.

KBC tools sells them. Side note, KBC is a nice smaller tool supply house that will sell to anyone, not just businesses.

 

[leg17]

Yeah, when that does not work I usually end of sacrificing old carbide endmills until the tap is dust (along with some carbide endmill dust). Need to build that tap disintegrator one of these days...

You have to break a tap a certain way for those things to work. Usually you just have to move on to plan B and re-order extractor parts, just in case they might work next time. I always had EDM available at work anyway.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

All extractors tend to have an instantaneous and strong polarizing effect on mechanics from what I have seen. Some guys will at least try them. Others just look at them as something that's soon to be stuck or broken off inside something else that's already stuck or broken off and go right to the welding or drilling techniques.

 

[Provincial]

Case in point: I recently had to remove 5 (of the 12) bolts that had broken off in the mounting flange of a drive motor on a small excavator. They were 14MM (which is about 9/16" coarse thread). First, I heated the flange near each hole to break the rust bond between the flange and the broken bolt threads. I tried drilling and using an easy-out - no go. I tried welding a washer and nut on - no go. I finally had to put it on the milling machine and use an end mill to put a centered hole in each broken bolt and then move the table around to cut away the bolt, leaving just the treads behind. Even after all of the bolt except the threads was removed, it was very difficult to remove the remains left in the flange! I had to use a carbide end mill on the ones I tried to weld a nut on.

This is why so many people go straight to machining out the broken fastener.

 

[leg17]

All extractors tend to have an instantaneous and strong polarizing effect on mechanics from what I have seen. Some guys will at least try them. Others just look at them as something that's soon to be stuck or broken off inside something else that's already stuck or broken off and go right to the welding or drilling techniques.

Come on into the shop in the morning.
Third shift guy says "a bolt broke off on machine ....."
I think to myself "this might not too bad"
Third shift guy then utters those dreaded words "we tried to get it out but......."
I think to myself "this is going to be bad"

 

[four.cycle]

^ I think we had a similar conversation here in a different thread, in which I said something to the effect of:
I sold a boatload of those "E-Z out" widgets. Spiral ones. Square fluted ones.
We took a whole mess of them back as "warranties" - our policy was "refund or replacement" on Indestro, regardless of the manufacturer's not offering any sort of warranty on them.
I've never used one that solved the problem.
If I snap a bolt off now, I just junk the engine case and find another one to work on. Fortunately lawnmower engine repair affords one that luxury.

 

[humber2]

This style allows for left and right wiggling to get more penetrating oil into useful spaces.

 

[d42jeep]

Those look similar in design to my Blue Point/Ridgid extractor set. I personally hate easy-out type tools and won’t use them. I prefer to accurately drill out broken off bolts and either remove the remaining threads or use helicoils.
I found these ”Handy” taps at an estate sale yesterday.
-Don

 

[KYBOSH]

Excellent thread. I learned something new today.

 

[gpw_42]

Blue Point TD-2500 set:

The tap handle seems to be a replacement, and the geometric Craftsman 6-32 tap is definitely a replacement. Everything else seems to be original to the set, which I acquired at an estate sale in 2020, see post 3614 in the 2020 GS thread: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/2020-garage-sale-thread.439709/page-91#post-8650028