Shiftless
Well-known member
That will be great to follow. Please start a thread.
Fireball Tool Hardtail Vise - The Best Vise On The Market???
- Thread starter dr_clyde
- Start date
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Simple enough. Send it!
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Yes, this one is clearly of inadequate strength
General Geoff
Well-known member
As far as I know, all of those options are on the table for those who pre-ordered. The US version is $3800.
Sorry, wasn’t meaning to flame anyone . . .
I learned of the preorder release from the first Instagram post on Sept 12th. Never saw the video that no doubt existed. Based off of my recollection of ordering that day and backup from the post sharing the web archive from then, all the comments on the existing YouTube and Instagram posts asking or speculating where the vise was made - all of which were asking at the time “where made?” or assuming made in the USA - none of which were ever answered by Jason, no COO was identified in writing. If he truly intended it to be made in the USA, don’t you think he would have highlighted that in writing knowing the marketing force and weight that has???
I don’t think the initial preorder was ever intended to be USA made. I wonder if he had prototypes cast in the USA and slipped up mentioning that in the now defunct video? That seems plausible from one of the Instagram posts asking about which version was making it to production and Jason did reply that one version was not going to be used because the lettering failed too many times. Perhaps there was a realization of the confusion about that, if that was the case, and with the rising furor about COO, the video is now gone. All speculation. Not knocking what you or anyone’s experience.
Now, the earlier post sharing the email saying Fireball did their best to make it known at Fabtec that it would be Taiwan made - that may be true verbally, I wasn’t there - but never was it in writing anywhere that I have seen from that time. What level of deception from not highlighting COO Taiwan plainly, if deception is the appropriate word, is an unknown. Did he intend to not identify COO as Taiwan to dupe a bunch of people? Can’t say. Definitely some level of screw up, how much I’m not going to debate any longer. Really I was wanting to share where things were with the shipping and date of order to give people an idea where things were at with shipping of preorders.
On the latter note, I see there is a new review posted on the Fireball tool website where the reviewer claims to have ordered on Sept 21 and received theirs December 22. If that’s true then the vise being delivered in order of preorder has gone out the window.
Peace.
Southernbuild
Well-known member
Now this is the kind of thinking I like to hear! Especially if you cast it yourself.
Eh, I'm sure the Fireball is a great vise but is it actually better than a big Reed? I'm sure it's stronger, but who the hell needs that kind of strength? Wouldn't be surprised if a Reed gets less in the way for some use cases.
cvairwerks
Well-known member
Look at the plans Jason did a couple of years ago for a shop built vise.
cvairwerks
Well-known member
Rzrbk8: I suspect they dropped the year from those dates. Last note I had from FT, they hadn’t made it close to my Oct. preorder yet. They were trying to get ramped up to 25 units a week.
I should have been clearer - I took the review dates to mean Sept 21, 2021 and delivered Dec 22, 2022. I preordered mine on Sept 12, 2021 and still do not have mine. Unless that was a typo by the reviewer - they meant Sept 12th, not 21st? I have exchanged messages with someone who ordered on 9/11/21 and they received theirs in December. So if the preorder delivery is holding true, then they haven’t even delivered the preorders from the first three days as of yet . . .
cvairwerks
Well-known member
I ordered mine the 3rd week of October 21, and the last message said shipping by the end of Feb. per the current schedule
You’re right. They are, but without the acknowledgment that something changed.
That’s first part of that press release that he missed, the recognition that there was a mistake and here’s what we do. It’s kinda like the teenager who replaced the bottle of stolen booze in the liquor cabinet later hoping his parents won’t notice it was gone for a few days. There was a wrong that was committed, just fixing the end result pretending nothing changed without admitting fault is not right.
As it sits now fireball would like us to believe it’s been this way all along and I don’t think that’s the case. We’re basically being gaslit into thinking the current offering is what was always offered.
Southernbuild
Well-known member
They are both very heavy duty 6" vices; the Reed is 185 pounds, which is similar to the Fireball one. I think the Fireball one opens a bit wider, though a questionable benefit for my uses.
The main features I prefer with the Fireball is replaceable jaws; my Reed is an early production model before they incorporated that feature, but I assume I can mill out a shelf to mount jaws in later on, if it becomes an issue.
And second, I do like the thrust bearing design of the Fireball.
Don't think I could ever wear either one out though
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Feels like it's time to move on. Businesses so rarely admit fault, same with most people.
cvairwerks
Well-known member
I think the Fireball one is closer to 250 pounds....
I mean, I have moved on. It’s just this thread keeps the discussion alive.
It’s not like I lose sleep over it. I don’t need one of these vises, I just think it would have been cool to have a nice USA made quality vise from a company that I like. I’m MUCH less excited about a Taiwan vise, despite the fact that I’m sure the vises are IDENTICAL and VERY high quality. It’s more the way it was handled I’m disappointed in.
When the time comes for me to make my choice I’ll make it. Until then I’ll mull it over occasionally.
I fully realize we won’t get any sort of admission of fault or any sort of apology. As a businessman myself I understand it’s one of the most embarrassing and difficult things to do to call your customer tail between your legs and admit you fucked up. But it usually ends up being better for everyone in the long run when I do. But hey. Jason is doing just fine and at this point it would probably do more damage than help to admit fault. He missed his opportunity.
I may make my own vise as a hobby project one day just to say I did it.
jdcompman
Well-known member
Just a data point. I ordered on Sept 12th, 2021 as well and do not have mine. Last correspondence I saw was that it was shipping "somewhere in Nov 2022." Nothing since then.
Not sure how easy it would be to mill the jaws out, they're probably some hard steel and the casting was poured over it? That would be an issue for endmills. I'd leave it as it is, but if you really want to go that way, it might be possible with some precision angle grinder work and finishing it off with a surface grinder (or a 'tool and cutter' grinder, used for repairing or making old-school solid HSS cutting tools, would work really fine for this sort of work - it could also grind it all out but it would take a lot of patience!).They are both very heavy duty 6" vices; the Reed is 185 pounds, which is similar to the Fireball one. I think the Fireball one opens a bit wider, though a questionable benefit for my uses.
The main features I prefer with the Fireball is replaceable jaws; my Reed is an early production model before they incorporated that feature, but I assume I can mill out a shelf to mount jaws in later on, if it becomes an issue.
And second, I do like the thrust bearing design of the Fireball.
Don't think I could ever wear either one out though
Thurst bearing is a bit overrated, I fitted one on my little 100mm York vise - it spins nicely but it's not some major advantage in my opinion. Anyway, easy enough to retrofit it to any vise. You can generally find them in appropriate sizes for the spindle. In case of more heavy duty vises where the spindle is held on the dynamic jaw with a front plate, you can just shim that plate a bit further away (or have a new single-piece one made with a milled offset inside). Or you could have the hole inside the dynamic jaw deepened a little on a mill, but I'd rather just modify that end plate...
Or an alternative to a thrust bearing - have a bronze washer turned in the right diameter and just slide it over the spindle. It will help with the friction a lot. Maybe even use a die grinder and cut a small spiral into it to hold some grease. A bronze washer thrust bearing will also withstand more pressure than a roller thrust bearing.
slowtwitch73
Well-known member
You can get oil impregnated washers/bearings.
Handyandy23
Well-known member
6.5" - Hardtail High Pressure Vise
US Made Total Cost: $3,800 shipping included to contiguous US Taiwan Made Total Cost: $1,800 shipping included to contiguous US We set out to create the best heavy duty vise on the market and along the way we had a couple decisions to make on where and how to manufacture this vise. This vise has...fireballtool.com
This is a somewhat interesting case study of the "Made in USA" only tool crowd. There's a lot of rhetoric thrown around on this site about reasons why US-made is the way to go for tools:
- the design is better
- the material the tools are made of is superior
- would rather pay more to support US jobs
The price difference isn't small, but if we're giving him the benefit of the doubt, that is the cost difference of doing business in the US vs Taiwan. COO seems to be the major sticking point for most, so I doubt he's adding a big markup on for US-made when he's losing customers over it. I'd bet the profit margin is similar for both vises.
I know it's a very niche market for a vise this big, and a portion of that niche are the people that want to show it off proudly and really want that big USA marking on it. So I'm not trying to call out anyone specifically, or say that anyone is copping out by not buying the US-made one.
But at the same time I think it shows the more realistic side to the "buy US made" argument. When it comes down to it, it's not enough to just be US-made for people to pony up double the money. In this case we know they're identical vises, and without the extra value trade off, many aren't willing to pay the price.
General Geoff
Well-known member
Does anyone here on GJ actually intend to purchase the $3800 USA-made one?
For $3800 I bet I can model my own, have patterns made, cast a few and machine them myself. Might even be able to pay myself a little while doing it. That’s so much money for a vise. Granted, it’s huge, but still.
I’m seriously looking into it. A good friend of mine’s family has a pattern shop and foundry here in town and we discussed this over lunch today. If there are so many people willing to buy a cool Taiwan vise for $1800 that he’s backordered months, I bet we can sell 6” heavy duty USA vises at or near his import prices and still make money. Vises are NOT rocket science. They’re very simple tools, you just need a good, robust design and good components and materials to make a durable long lasting one.
I was happy to pay the pre-order price for a USA vise. I’d pay the current import price of $1800 for a USA vise. I’d probably go as high as $2k. But $3800?
That begs the question of how much is a USA vise worth to you?
90% of people probably won’t care about where a vise is made. The 10% who do probably won’t want to pay prices beyond what the imports cost past a certain percentage. Is 10% over import too much? 25%? Double? Wilton sells a lot of $800-$1500 USA made vises, that’s quite a premium over the import ones. I’ve bought 2 brand new Wiltons in the last decade. No complaints, I plan to own them for the rest of my time owning tools.
I buy a LOT of USA made goods and they’re usually more money but not to this extreme.
I’m going to get some quotes and run the numbers mostly as an experiment and just out of curiosity. Who knows, maybe I end up making some vises to see what the hang up is. Maybe I just buy Jason’s vise and I’ll lose interest in the whole thing. Maybe he’s right and you can’t make things here anymore.
I’m seriously looking into it. A good friend of mine’s family has a pattern shop and foundry here in town and we discussed this over lunch today. If there are so many people willing to buy a cool Taiwan vise for $1800 that he’s backordered months, I bet we can sell 6” heavy duty USA vises at or near his import prices and still make money. Vises are NOT rocket science. They’re very simple tools, you just need a good, robust design and good components and materials to make a durable long lasting one.
I was happy to pay the pre-order price for a USA vise. I’d pay the current import price of $1800 for a USA vise. I’d probably go as high as $2k. But $3800?
That begs the question of how much is a USA vise worth to you?
90% of people probably won’t care about where a vise is made. The 10% who do probably won’t want to pay prices beyond what the imports cost past a certain percentage. Is 10% over import too much? 25%? Double? Wilton sells a lot of $800-$1500 USA made vises, that’s quite a premium over the import ones. I’ve bought 2 brand new Wiltons in the last decade. No complaints, I plan to own them for the rest of my time owning tools.
I buy a LOT of USA made goods and they’re usually more money but not to this extreme.
I’m going to get some quotes and run the numbers mostly as an experiment and just out of curiosity. Who knows, maybe I end up making some vises to see what the hang up is. Maybe I just buy Jason’s vise and I’ll lose interest in the whole thing. Maybe he’s right and you can’t make things here anymore.
General Geoff
Well-known member
I get the impression that doing quality ductile iron castings of that size, shape, and mass is not something easily done at just any old foundry. Add in union labor rates, EPA, and OSHA compliance, and I absolutely believe the actual cost to manufacture something like that being $3k in 2023 dollars.
General Geoff
Well-known member
Just doing a little bit of searching, Amazon has the Wilton 800S which is about as close in mass/size/quality as you can get, USA made, to the Fireball Hardtail, and the seller (Toolmarts) wants $4627 for it. Assuming it's actually available/still being made. Wilton's own website shows no retailers with it.
slowtwitch73
Well-known member
I don't think anyone 'needs' the vise.
General Geoff
Well-known member
I wish you the best of luck, my friend
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I doubt you could come close even if you don't value your time, for a comparable vise
Plus you are ignoring the cost of all the equipment you would need, which is appropriately amortized into the overhead costs in Jason's price.
What makes you think I don’t have the equipment I need? I own and operate a fabrication and machine shop. I have CNC milling and turning as well as a full support shop of manual machine tools. A local friend and colleague has a full time pattern shop and foundry that supplies industry with tools and castings way larger and more complex than a bench vise. Most of my friends are also business owners with large capacity machine shops or manufacturing businesses. If I wanted to, I’m pretty dang sure either myself or friends of mine have whatever tools we need to make anything we want.
I also know how to value my time, and I doubt very much making one single vise could be argued as spending time wisely. But if I was to make one, I’d make a dozen and sell the other 11. Then I’d get paid for my time. And if I can sell 11, then I’ll make another dozen and sell those. And if I get stuck with 11 vises, then I have 11 vises and I’ll have had fun spending some time and money learning about building vises. I’ve spent more money on dumber stuff than developing a potential product and working in my shop building tools I like.
I wouldn’t do it if I I either A, didn’t like it or B, didn’t make money doing it.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
You are missing the point. I didn't say you don't have the equipment.
Just like you aren't valuing your time, you aren't applying any value for your equipment.
Having everything to do it doesn't mean his price is unreasonable. If you also owned a foundry, would that part be "free" too?
If you want to make one, absolutely go for it and lots of people here would love to see it.
At no point did I say any of it was “free”. I would either be doing this as a profit making venture or as a hobby, one or the other. Justifying a cost is different than pretending it doesn’t exist.
If I can’t do it and make any money, or it costs me more than it makes I’m willing to do the experiment for fun. I don’t need to make shop rate 24/7, I’m allowed to use my machines and resources for things I enjoy and not be expected to turn a profit, just like if I was to use my shop to make parts for a personal hot rod or something.
If it turns out I CAN make money and pay for everything and it works out, then I’ll set up a vise company LLC, put in a PO and run these on the clock and buy them from my company like any other customer.
It is a bit insulting to think I can’t do math and look at things like cost of goods, labor costs, opportunity cost of my tools and all the other costs in manufacturing. It’s what I do for a living. If my machines were running three shifts 24/7 it wouldn’t really make sense to shut down and make a vise just to see if I can. But I have nights and weekends and the occasional free spindle during the week I can utilize without cutting into the rest of the shop’s work.
The risk is if no one wants to buy the parts I get stuck with the cost of the prototype and the first run of parts. I don’t have any sales, so it’s a risk to make these on spec. It is a relatively small risk given what I already have for tools and machines and what it would take to make the first run. Some time, some money and some material. I can risk that. Even if it doesn’t work out, I’ve got less invested than a lot of other hobbies. If it does work out, I can sell some vises.
I won’t really know until I get some real quotes and actually spend a few hours doing some homework. But my gut says if I make a dozen or do vises and sell them I can make these for less than Jason. Will it be exactly the same? No. I don’t want to make a fireball vise. I want to make MY vise if I’m going to bother. Is it cost effective to make ONE vise? Also no. Probably not. If I bother, I’ll make at least 12. But Jason’s not making these one at a time either. So we’ll see.
I'd be interested in seeing what you can come up with. A $1000 price point super beefy USA made vice would be intriguing.
I think 1k OTD would be a bit optimistic, I’d be shooting for similar to Jason’s import pricing but a little less. I don’t want to go quite as long as he has, that almost 3 overall length is very niche and would eliminate a lot of potential sales. But if the demand is truly there for that size of vise I’ll for sure look into it.
Southernbuild
Well-known member
I might be mistaken, but I thought they were pretty close in weight. I checked the Fireball site, but didn't see the weight listed. Surprising for a vise like this...
Southernbuild
Well-known member
Good points I completely missed!
I'll definantly try your bronze washer idea when I reassemble it.
Though, as stout as this handle is, its not like I'll be spinning it crazy fast anyway...
Southernbuild
Well-known member
Similar or lower price point, for a made in America monster vice! Are you accepting preorders yet? I'm probably a buyer if you're serious about this venture.
Hephaestus29
Well-known member
I bought an OLD Rock Island for 65.00 years ago, it’s got a 6” jaw and about 26” long. I haven’t found anything It hasn’t been able to clamp sufficiently yet.
cvairwerks
Well-known member
On his second channel, in the video talking about the differences between the built up vise from plans and the hard tail, he says the prototype hard tail is between 260 and 270 pounds.
So, there's a lot of factors at play here and I'm still looking into costing this out. I've spent the last week or two working on this in my free time at the shop.
I think it would for sure be feasible to make a USA made vise for significantly less than Jason's vise. The question is how inexpensive can it be while still maintaining the integrity of the product and making enough profit to make it worth while.
So far I've designed a prototype and am getting quotes for the work and materials.
Based on the numbers I've gotten back so far, I think a realistic price point for me to make a vise would probably be somewhere between Jason's two vises.
My current target would be to make and sell a 6" USA made vise for between 2k and $2800.
Now, whether or not there's a market for a $2800 vise is another whole kettle of fish.
Wilton is hit or miss on their pricing, but depending on the vendor and if they're on sale, the 600N is between $1500 and $2200. The Milwaukee Morgan is about $1500 and the 6" Orange is about $1500 but that's a fairly specialized vise and not really comparable to a general shop vise. Still a USA bench vise though.
So we've got a spread of $1500 to $3800 in the current available offerings.
I think there's room in the middle. Maybe only a few people a year want one. Who knows.