Educate me - tap and die sets?

[whitesco]

I'd like to get a better tap and die set that I have (tiny HF cheap-O set I needed RIGHT THEN), and I've come across two Irwin sets but I can't figure out why one is 2x the price of the other. The more expensive one is Irwin/Hanson, but surely it's not JUST branding is it?

Hoping someone will see right off whatever I don't and school me a little on the difference...

The more expensive set (I'm seeing $475 - $700!!!):

66-pc Machine Screw / Fractional & Hex Die Set - Tools - IRWIN TOOLS

And the less expensive set ($220 - $275):

76-pc Machine Screw / Fractional / Metric Tap & Hex Die Set - Tools - IRWIN TOOLS

If the answer is "if you don't know the difference then you've got no business buying a tap and die set" I can live with that, but I'd like to learn a little something if I can.

My intended purpose is to have a general use set to repair/chase threads as needed, I will not need to cut new threads often if ever but I won't say never.

Thanks!

 

[Lucid Moments]

Look for a rethreading kit instead of a tap and die kit. They are significantly cheaper. There have been a couple of theads on similar subjects in the past and most of them are made by only a few different manufacturors. I have a kit from Lang and it has been great and IIRC I paid less than $100 for it.

 

[four.cycle]

^^ what he said. .If you only want to "fix" existing threads, do NOT use cutting taps or dies on them!

thread "fixers::

GolatTaylor / GolaTTaylor Tools, LLC., PO Box 10399, Fairbanks, AK / https://threadwizard.us/ / "Thread Wizard" thread cleaner /

Jawco / Jaw Mfg. Co., P.O. Box 213, Reading, PA 19603-0213 / http://www.jawco.com/index.html / "Nu-Thred" thread restorer file /

there are others on the market as well.

 

[GeoBruin]

This comes up often and the prevailing wisdom here seems to be that your shouldn't spend a bunch of money on a big tap/die set. Rather, as mentioned above, purchase a rethreading kit such as the Lang and it's many copies or a Jawco set. That will run you between $100 and $160 dollars depending on which way you go.

Then, buy a few taps/dies in the sizes you use most, and then pick them up as you need them for specific projects. Most will tell you that typical carbon steel taps, such as those that come in the big sets, will not serve you well in the long term. Rather, you want high speed steel. They are more expensive, and to my knowledge aren't offered in "complete sets", but they are available in several flavors (I have found McMaster to be a great place for HSS taps if you are willing to pay the "McMaster Tax". I'm sure others will have recommendations on where to get good HSS taps.

Good luck.

 

[whitesco]

Thanks kindly - a rethreading kit sounds much more like my primary use case. Sorry for not finding previous dicussions, my search-fu obviously needs some work.

 

[timgunn1962]

I think the more expensive 66-piece set tops out at 3/4", whereas the 76-piece set tops out at 1/2". Big taps and dies tend not to be cheap, so that probably explains it.

The "don't buy a set" advice above is good.

 

[kmacht]

They are both the same. The only difference is in what taps and dies and accessories is offered in each. The 76 piece set has alot of metric taps and dies where as the 66 piece set has none.

 

[slowtwitch73]

The kits ****.... esp Irwin.

Go to macmaster or msc and buy tap sets (3 of each kind of tap per size) and amass a good selection. I did this years ago when Enco was still kicking.

 

[Lucid Moments]

The kits ****.... esp Irwin.

Go to macmaster or msc and buy tap sets (3 of each kind of tap per size) and amass a good selection. I did this years ago when Enco was still kicking.

Did you actually read his post before replying? Doing what you suggest might be reasonable if he ran a full time fab shop, but only then, and he doesn't even need to cut new threads, just to repair existing ones.

 

[dogdog]

I have the sae large sets from hf and they are very decent quality, the metric set is from eBay that looks like the hf metric set. Both does a good job making threads I need and covers 80 to 90% of my needs up to M24 stuff.

The other odd ball needs like the 1/2 -28 for fuel nozzles or 5/8 something for gas connectors or M9x1.25 for brake caliper guide pins for example you can buy one offs.

If you think HF is too good for you, you can always spend some money on HSS or carbide sets and not the high carbon titanium nitrate coated ones or cobalt coated ones. Go to a machinist specific supply sites that supplies to industry and commercial customers and get it from them instead.

 

[Dave455]

As timgunn points out - the difference is the biggest size. The more expensive set has big taps included, and they are expensive.

Some other advice I’d emphasise -

1) Don’t buy a big set. I guarantee there will be loads of stuff in there you will never use, but you are paying a lot for it. One of those sets includes pipe threads!

2) Don’t buy a set at all. Just buy the sizes you need. If you buy a set most sizes will never get used, some will get used to extinction (and probably worn out) so you’re going to end up buying individual sizes anyway!

3) Do buy individual taps, or sets of three, from a good metalworking supplier such as MSC. Quality will be better, price will be reasonable, and there’s advice if you need it.

Yes, I read that you only want them for general repair / rethreading. All the more reason not to buy a costly set. Just buy “second” taps. They will work fine, and you will still save a load!

Over many years working in the rusty U.K. I’ve never needed much more than 1/4, 5/16 and 3/8 UNF on all my automotive projects! For metric vehicles, buy 6, 8 and 10mm.

4) The U.S. and the U.K. have a common culture, separated only by a different language. Anything made by Irwin we refer to as “Shite”, while my U.S. colleagues say “It *****”! I suspect we’re talking about the same stuff!

 

[Jim greengo]

I've got an sae set,and a metric set in my service van.
Both irwin,I think I paid maybe $100.00 for each at lowes.

 

[ItsNemo]

Ignore those who always say "don't buy a set", it's bad advice. They live up on a high horse where you can't do anything unless you buy it the same way a machinist using them 100x a day does and it's impossible for a cheap carbon steel tap to cut even one new thread. For the average DIY person at home, having a set with all the different sizes readily available at 8pm on a Sunday when they're trying to fix something unexpected is the best place to start off. Add good single taps/dies to that set if you know you're going to do dozens of holes for a specific project but only then...and luckily the set will have got you a complete complement of drive tools while you're at it.

 

[dogdog]

Titanium Nitride-Coated Alloy Steel SAE Tap & Die Set, 45-Piece

Amazing deals on this 45Pc Titanium Sae Tap And Die Set at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

Titanium Nitride-Coated Alloy Steel Metric Tap & Die Set, 45-Piece

Amazing deals on this 45Pc Titanium Metric Tap And Die Set at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

These are the two sets I have except the metric ones is not from hf.

I like to cover something I need when I need it. Not waiting ages for it to be delivered. If it falls out of the 80/90% needs then I just Chuck it out as SOL. Even though I probably won’t used 90% of the tap or dies.

You can browser this site or msc or granger not grinder lmfao and see what material of the tap and die they offered.


These guys are supply for industrial and commercial customers specific for machinists.

Travers Tool Co - Metalworking Tools and Industrial Supplies

Travers Tool Co. provides metalworking tools and industrial supplies from trusted brands. Enjoy Travers Tools' expert guidance and unbeatable deals to keep your shop running efficiently. Shop today!

www.travers.com

In general there are
High carbon
High speed steel (even that have different grades don’t remember the naming it’s M something)
Carbide

Then there are coatings like nitrate, or cobalt or what ever the new one is now like nitrogen freezed or something gimmicky.

 

[larry_g]

I suspect that you may find that the more expensive set is high speed steel where the cheaper set is high carbon steel. This is just a guess. As said above if your just unfuking damaged threads then thread restoring tools are needed. IF you are fabricating and generating new threads then thread cutting taps/dies are called for.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[gsuty17]

I bought the Gearwrench set on sale from Amazon during cyber-Monday for $144, so keep an eye out if it goes on sale again. It's inadequate for use as a machinist, but for home/hobby use it is great. Also, the ratcheting handles are awesome.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001GMVA64/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[ecotec]

Ignore those who always say "don't buy a set", it's bad advice. They live up on a high horse where you can't do anything unless you buy it the same way a machinist using them 100x a day does and it's impossible for a cheap carbon steel tap to cut even one new thread. For the average DIY person at home, having a set with all the different sizes readily available at 8pm on a Sunday when they're trying to fix something unexpected is the best place to start off. Add good single taps/dies to that set if you know you're going to do dozens of holes for a specific project but only then...and luckily the set will have got you a complete complement of drive tools while you're at it.

This…

And this method doesn’t just work for tap and die. With a lot of different tools that you do not necessarily need a set of… a set means you have a bigger chance of being able to finish a job.

And you can upgrade the ones that you use most.

Dave455 mentioned that most people use certain tools for their trade. He is not wrong… but having a larger compliment or range of those same tools allows one to finish uncommon jobs on off hours.

 

[whitesco]

Thanks everyone - I'm a hobbyist at best, DIY'r but not a pro by any stretch but I do have the dreaded Toolman OCD so I tend to buy sets if I get a new something or other, unless it's just prohibitively expensive. I wish I had machine shop/fabrication skills but as I said it's mostly to fix or clean up stuff that already exists. Good advice on the rethreading kits, I'll likely go in that direction and save the tap and die set for when I decide the rethreaders need a complementary set of something.

 

[slowtwitch73]

Did you actually read his post before replying? Doing what you suggest might be reasonable if he ran a full time fab shop, but only then, and he doesn't even need to cut new threads, just to repair existing ones.

No no no. A few hss taps isn't even close to on par of 'full time fab shop'. LMAO.

 

[Meursault74]

I just got this set from HF for slightly less than the coupon price shown here

PITTSBURGH SAE & Metric Tap and Die Set 60 Pc. for $34.99

Buy the PITTSBURGH SAE & Metric Tap and Die Set 60 Pc. (Item 60366) for $34.99 with coupon code 14441432, valid through February 5, 2023. See the coupon for details.Compare our price of $34.99 …

go.harborfreight.com

I never tapped any metal before a few weeks ago. I bought it to repair a faucet handle (single lever kitchen type). The set screw threading had stripped out when I was taking it apart to rebuild with new seals. Anyway, an aftermarket handle was available for $20, it worked, but wasn't that great as it was designed to fit a few models, it sat a bit crooked as well. (I returned it). An original Delta handle was about $30. I bought the HF kit, drilled out the handle to the next size up , tapped , and installed a stainless steel set screw. So in true GJ fashion for a few bucks more than an original handle I fixed the one I had and now I have a tap and die set. I'm sure it will be a good addition to my fixing supplies.

 

[woody 73]

Funny story and I swear by the almighty lord above that I do not look for tap & die sets, yet they follow me home. I took my wife last week to a garage sale to buy some drill bits and the nice man said woody I got this Ace tap & die set and he proceeded to show me the set. turns out it was missing a few pieces and he said Woody how about $25.00 dollars to which I said sold. Turns out I had some old stock Ace taps & dies and I completed the set.

Sigh I just wish toolboxes would follow me home.

 

[richfinn]

I have the Metric Lang rethreader set (it was very cheap and comes with a thread file) and half a dozen metric taps and hex dies/and tap sockets in sizes suitable for European vehicles if I have to cut a new thread.

Have a few thread insert kits that come with appropriate tools

Mostly though I use M6x1.00 and M8x1.25 sizes for automotive stuff

 

[cgrutt]

Ignore those who always say "don't buy a set", it's bad advice. They live up on a high horse where you can't do anything unless you buy it the same way a machinist using them 100x a day does and it's impossible for a cheap carbon steel tap to cut even one new thread. For the average DIY person at home, having a set with all the different sizes readily available at 8pm on a Sunday when they're trying to fix something unexpected is the best place to start off. Add good single taps/dies to that set if you know you're going to do dozens of holes for a specific project but only then...and luckily the set will have got you a complete complement of drive tools while you're at it.

+2

I'm not a professional and don't use tap and dies all that often but when I needed one because I cross threaded a bolt or stripped a screw I can't tell you how happy I was to have a set and get the job done without having to go to the store or order one. Also it's not always clear what particular size or thread pitch you happen tobneed and it's nice being able to pull out a few and match up the threads. I have Snap on sets in metric and sae. Only broke one that I can remember (and it wound up costing me a small fortune for a new fuel pump housing for my boat arrrgh) and had to buy a few one-offs for some sizes that didn't come in the set (oil pan threads, etc). For the few (well maybe more than a few) times I needed them I was glad they were in the box...

 

[Outahere]

 

[Zewnten]

For DIY the HF sets are fine but for fixing threads the Lang kits or similar will do you better. If you end up doing something like a fab project where you use lots of one size then yeah I'd buy better in that specific size, but for you quanity is more important.

 

[MJK]

The lang kit does most of what I need for a very reasonable price.

 

[BlakeTheCarGuy]

I use my Snap-on rethreading set a ton. It’s made by Lang which I didn’t know when I bought it but you can’t go wrong with the Lang set. It’s really good made in USA. I’ll be honest our master Kia tech who has been doing this for 25 years swears by his HF tap and die set it’s the one in the off white color/grayish color case. And to be honest everyone in the shop uses it because it’s really good. They are well machined taps. He said he thinks he bought it probably 10 or 12 years ago. I still need a tap and die set for work I’ve been using his. I’m honestly considering the HF set. Personally I’d buy a tap and die set you never know when you’ll get ahold of something that some monkey touched before you and it pulls threads and all with it. I had to redo several skid plate bolts today and used his tap and die set it done fantastic. I got laughed at on my other forum for saying that but honestly my other coworkers have the more expensive sets and they seem ok but the HF surprisingly seems well machined compared to others. Surprising I’m sure.

 

[ecotec]

Funny story and I swear by the almighty lord above that I do not look for tap & die sets, yet they follow me home. I took my wife last week to a garage sale to buy some drill bits and the nice man said woody I got this Ace tap & die set and he proceeded to show me the set. turns out it was missing a few pieces and he said Woody how about $25.00 dollars to which I said sold. Turns out I had some old stock Ace taps & dies and I completed the set.

Sigh I just wish toolboxes would follow me home.

I have one Craftsman set in the cellophane… with the ephemera… and the original receipt. I have a matching set unused… but not in the cellophane.

I spent less on these sets than I did on the HF sets they replaced.

 

[qdvuu]

I still have my old Craftsman tap and die set I got back in the mid-70s and it has served me well for my hobbyist needs, which involve more threading than the OP is looking for. Check out the used market.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

Already having a HF set, I purchased a lot of nos taps n dies on eBay that wasn't quite a set, but good quality and like $20 instead of 200.

 

[rdoty]

As a general "have whatever size you might need when you need it" the cheap kits are better than nothing. If you are actually going to be using taps get a small number of industrial high speed steel taps in the sizes you actually use - especially if you are going to be tapping steel. There is a BIG difference between a good industrial tap and a cheap tap.

Garage Journal introduced me to Harry J. Epstein - harryepstein.com. They carry individual Norseman taps at reasonable prices. For example, a Norseman high speed steel 1/4-20 tap is currently $3.70. If you are going to be using them heavily, get 2 or 3.

Note that if you are going to be tapping blind holes you will need multiple taps: taper (starter tap), plug, and bottoming.

 

[crasher98]

I had an unwelcome introduction to the topic of drilling and tapping a number of years ago when I jacked up a bolt hole in the frame of my jeep in the course of removing a rusty fastener. I didn't have any of the tools needed to fix this so had to read up on them -- probably came here to do it! -- and I decided what I needed wasn't a tap and die set, it was a drill and tap set, because the drill you use for a tapped hole isn't a normal size drill bit, it's a little smaller. I also decided that I probably would never need any dies, because I already had the Lang thread chasing kit and I couldn't think of any circumstances where I would need to cut my own threads on something. I figured I would just go somewhere and buy a bolt or a threaded rod or whatever.

Point being: maybe you should consider a drill & tap set, at least to start out with. And get a thread chasing set if you don't have one already since as others have stated, you aren't really supposed to use dies to clean up threads. Or so I read on GJ!

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

I have large metric and SAE tap/die sets (USA made HSS), but they are my last resort. Lang set is used for rethreading, and quality industrial grade taps are used for actual tapping duties. The sets are for the oddball stuff I don't have better taps for. I usually only buy spiral fluted taps as I can run them harder without having to clear chips and they work for blind holes.

 

[matthew]

A couple of thoughts:

1. Just a home gamer too, and I use taps a lot more frequently then dies. Whether for cleaning threads or cutting new. If I was picking essentials I’d just have the taps, most of the times damaged external threads are bolts that just get replaced.

2. I probably cut more threads than I clean out. Maybe just me, but it’s usually building or modifying more than repairing.

3. Taper - plug - bottoming. From most tapered to least. General sets usually only have plug taps. Which usually works, but if you have clearance to use a taper tap it cuts less at a time. Which in most materials will be less force, and less likely to break the tap. I think…

4. I break too many taps. And it’s usually small ones. Pay attention to getting decent small taps and it’s less likely to happen.

5. Starting holes straight is key to not breaking taps. A piloted tap wrench in a drill press is a good idea on parts where it’s a high risk of breakage.

6. I find 6-32, 8-32, 10-24 and 10-32 all get use. You might skip some bigger ones, depending what you’re doing. I’ve definitely used 7/16NC, but YMMV.

Recently I’ve bought some house brand taps from KBC. They seem better than hardware store taps, and are reasonably priced.

 

[CJM8515]

i have a few sets. the lang restore set (well craftsman..same thing), and HF carbon and the better gold colored ones. I have frequently used them with great success and never had an issue. i dont fabricate but rather use it mostly to clean up threads and bolts. i found that you can cut new threads on bolts and nuts if you are careful and go slow and use some sorta of fluid (like tap magic for instance). i bought an M6 and M8 set by irwin as well.

 

[AirMech#406]

For thread chasing, Lang is the best bang for your buck. Snap-On, Craftsman, and others take the Lang set, put their name on it, and jack up the price 2x-3x.

This is the cheapest place I have found them. They have a cheaper 40pc set. but I recommend the master set I have linked below.

Lang LNG971 48 pc. SAE & Metric Thread Restorer Kit

Lang LNG971 48 pc. SAE & Metric Thread Restorer Kit at Great Prices | National Tool Warehouse

www.nationaltoolwarehouse.com

 

[M635_Guy]

Thanks everyone - I'm a hobbyist at best, DIY'r but not a pro by any stretch but I do have the dreaded Toolman OCD so I tend to buy sets if I get a new something or other, unless it's just prohibitively expensive. I wish I had machine shop/fabrication skills but as I said it's mostly to fix or clean up stuff that already exists. Good advice on the rethreading kits, I'll likely go in that direction and save the tap and die set for when I decide the rethreaders need a complementary set of something.

Even though they look very similar, you should essentially think of a thread repair kit and a tap/die set as different tools. As a DIY'er, my Lang thread repair kit has been incredibly useful - it has made things that would have been job-stoppers or in a couple cases big-time issues into just a simple additional step to finishing the job.

 

[Ricky Joe]

Get a set from eBay. You can get a good quality vintage set for around fifty bucks, maybe less. I just sold my lathe and gave the young man who bought it my Handy set in a wooden box that I’ve used for years, with no issues. I just ran across an old Craftsman set as I’ve been sorting out my mess. It is good quality, also. For chasers I have Snap-On, Herbrand, and Blue Point. All are sufficient. And you need a thread file. Back when I had my garage I had an out of state company bring me a trailer that had burnt the bearing on the axle. It had damaged the threads extensively. My recommendation was to replace the axle and send the truck on its way. The company wanted me to fix the axle, so I spent the weekend hand filing the threads with a thread file. I was able to restore the threads, but the bill was pretty dang close to what it would have cost to replace the axle.

 

[RoninB4]

The material being threaded/repaired doesn't seem to be mentioned, nor does the size. They both should be considered. Tapping/repairing mild steel, brass, or plastic are less problematic than tapping/repairing something in SS, cast iron, or heat treated steel. SS can be a PITA to work with due to work hardening, type of SS, and/or the condition the existing threads are in. I don't attempt making/repairing threads in anything less than HSS, plain carbon steel may/may not work. That's just my experience and my opinion. Size of tap/die can make a difference as well. For threads smaller than 1/4 it's quite easy to snap off a tap, larger taps made from plain carbon steel may work ok for repair.

From the video posted above even 3 holes started producing wear characteristics on many of the taps. The question is just how many repairs will you do before your taps start getting dull and risk breaking off in the next hole? Won't offer comment on the re-threading varieties, never use them. A full plain carbon steel set may be ok for occasional re-threading jobs, it may let you down one day. It's up to individual choice. Buying a few common higher quality HSS taps/dies is a good choice too. It depends upon what the buyer expects. A machinist has an opinion based upon expectations for work performance just like anybody else. To flatly state that opinion is "bad advice" is uninformed nonsense. Buy what suits your budget, expectations, and are aware of the limitations of your choice. There is no single choice that fits everybody's requirements.

I prefer using HSS for new/repairing threads because that hole is usually too important to take unnecessary risks, any threading job is already risky enough. I use what gives me a good chance at the results I want. This is just my experience and my opinion. What I choose to do may not be suitable for you. Almost everybody here has offered what I consider good advice, the choice is up to you and what you consider important.

 

[turner66]

For thread chasing, Lang is the best bang for your buck. Snap-On, Craftsman, and others take the Lang set, put their name on it, and jack up the price 2x-3x.

This is the cheapest place I have found them. They have a cheaper 40pc set. but I recommend the master set I have linked below.

Lang LNG971 48 pc. SAE & Metric Thread Restorer Kit

Lang LNG971 48 pc. SAE & Metric Thread Restorer Kit at Great Prices | National Tool Warehouse

www.nationaltoolwarehouse.com

Same as Kastar which is slightly less expensive on Amazon

Amazon.com