I'm looking at Porcelain Tiles in my garage but I've found absolutely nothing about using a floor jack (any make or model) or jack stands (any make or model) on this surface. My question goes out to those who have experience with their porcelain floors. Is this possible or what options are people actually using out there (i.e. EZ Lift)?
Porcelain Tile and Floor Jacks/Jack Stands
- Thread starter Dissent
- Start date
If your porcelain tile is installed properly it will be absolutely no issue. We use Jack's and jack stands with zero impact on our tile for the last 3 or 4 years.
I've posted several threads with photographs of our PEI 4 porcelain tile and how durable it's been for us. I think we have three small chips due to a dropped engine block and a magnetic drill from 7 ft up. The chips are less than 1/4 in in one case and approximately 1/8 in in the other two.
Working on a tile floor is amazing. It's like laying down on your kitchen floor to get under the car, and all fluid spills clean up with a brake cleaner and a paper towel. We typically steam clean it about once a month or when we finish big dirty jobs.
I've posted several threads with photographs of our PEI 4 porcelain tile and how durable it's been for us. I think we have three small chips due to a dropped engine block and a magnetic drill from 7 ft up. The chips are less than 1/4 in in one case and approximately 1/8 in in the other two.
Working on a tile floor is amazing. It's like laying down on your kitchen floor to get under the car, and all fluid spills clean up with a brake cleaner and a paper towel. We typically steam clean it about once a month or when we finish big dirty jobs.
Shea
Well-known member
This article will answer your questions:
allgaragefloors.com
Dispelling the Myths of Porcelain Tile for a Garage Floor | All Garage Floors
Answers to the most frequently asked questions about porcelain tile for a garage floor. Does it crack, withstand jacks, get slippery when wet, and more.
allgaragefloors.com
duneslider
Well-known member
Porcelain is harder than concrete. It should be just fine assuming install was good.
duneslider
Well-known member
I personally won't install any tile without an underlayment. I am a fan of ditra but there are lots of good options nowdays. If you have the time and money to do it twice you should have enough to do it right once.
ScaldedDog
Well-known member
We just used Redguard - nasty stuff - and had zero cracks in the six years we owned the house after. Six inches of concrete over a well prepped base with rebar.
Floor jacks and jack stands are a non-issue. I chipped my floor only one time, by dropping an entire Dana 44 that landed on the pinion flange. It would have chipped the concrete worse.
I found exactly two downsides to a well installed tile garage floor, other than the work involved, neither of which mattered much to me:
1) I picked a fairly light tile, and it seemed to stain and never seemed really clean. In fairness, I never really tried very hard to clean it.
2) They greatly expand your "search zone" for things you drop. Drop a socket from shoulder height and the floor won't notice. You, however, will have to look all over the garage for the thing.
Search my threads from around 2014 to see the install.
Mark
Floor jacks and jack stands are a non-issue. I chipped my floor only one time, by dropping an entire Dana 44 that landed on the pinion flange. It would have chipped the concrete worse.
I found exactly two downsides to a well installed tile garage floor, other than the work involved, neither of which mattered much to me:
1) I picked a fairly light tile, and it seemed to stain and never seemed really clean. In fairness, I never really tried very hard to clean it.
2) They greatly expand your "search zone" for things you drop. Drop a socket from shoulder height and the floor won't notice. You, however, will have to look all over the garage for the thing.
Search my threads from around 2014 to see the install.
Mark
TheSauceSpot
Member
What do you recommend at this point? I was thinking aqua barrier and then the Underlayment just to be as safe as possible. What’s the best option currently?
Thank you in advance.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I'd do ditra. I know I can trust it and it works. There may be cheaper options out there, but if you want the best, I don't think too many will argue against it
duneslider
Well-known member
I don't see much reason to use anything but ditra, it will also take care of the "aqua barrier". Ditra is easy to get too, at least around here both HD and Lowes stock it (not cheapest place to buy it, but it has saved me a longer drive to the supplier).
Laticrete stratamat is good too but isn't a water barrier like Ditra. If you need water management it probably isn't the right choice.
Nobleseal TS is also good but not easy for me to get where I am so I don't really use it much. I do use it for steam rooms/steam showers.
TheSauceSpot
Member
Really appreciate this advice. I will look into Ditra more as I am not familair at all with this product. If it saves me from a few $300 aqua barrier jugs too that’s a major bonus.
My biggest trouble is finding a good PEI 5 tile now. Haven’t found anything outside of a super thick paver.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Pei 4 will be fine
duneslider
Well-known member
In this application, I wouldn't even consider the Aqua Barrier. The ditra will do everything you need, and more. And zero reason to do both.
I have written about it a lot on here but don't get hung up on the PEI 4 or 5 thing. That is only about the actual hardness/wear resistance of the glaze and not the actual tile. Frankly, a pei 3 is probably fine for a home garage. I would think any porcelain tile is going to be more than fine for a home garage. I would be more concerned with the COF (coefficient of friction), look for .6 or higher.
TheSauceSpot
Member
Would you recommend the .125 or the .3125 thickness of Ditra?
I am just under 1,100sq. Ft. of floor. This Ditra sure isn’t cheap! Looking to be about $2,500 just for this membrane material then whatever extras needed to install it and Glue the sections together to make it truly waterproof.
I guess like you have said before, do it once And do it right!
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I think the extra thick is just meant for heated applications.
You'll need double the thin-set plus kerdi band if you want to fully waterproof.
Their instructions are excellent. Make sure to read them
You'll need double the thin-set plus kerdi band if you want to fully waterproof.
Their instructions are excellent. Make sure to read them
rlitman
Well-known member
Not quite. There are THREE thicknesses. The middle 0.250" thick one is for a heating cable, and it has columns with rounded corners meant to wrap the cable around.
The thinnest one is the original, and the thickest one is for uses where the original may not have enough give, such as for natural stone over a wood joist floor with too much bounce.
Unless you're adding heat, only the original Ditra makes sense over a concrete slab, and even then, Ditra is probably overkill on a concrete slab for tile purposes. Any liquid applied crack isolation membrane (like RedGard) should be more than enough to handle minor cracks. Maybe something a little better than that would help if you plan to tile over a joint.
duneslider
Well-known member
You just need the .125" stuff, the thicker stuff is to get tile to meet up to hardwood flooring. Price has gone up on it for sure. However, I would look around and see if any of the tile suppliers will sell it to you. I know even the floor and decor in my area has it for under $1.90sq/ft (that might be the same price at lowes for the 323sqft roll). I haven't bought any in the last 6 months or so and I am pretty sure my local suppliers are less than floor and decor. I know at least a couple of the contractor places I go will sell to walk-in customers and better prices than you get at lowes, especially if you are buying tile and other materials there.
The question to ask is, do you really need it fully waterproof? If you are just worried about a little water vapor coming up through the slab I wouldn't worry about doing the kerdi band on the seams. The only times I have gone the full waterproof was in a laundry room with a floor drain where the HO was super worried about a leak and a bathroom that had a big shower with no door or curb to the shower. Normal amounts of water vapor will be handled just fine with the ditra.
The question to ask is, do you really need it fully waterproof? If you are just worried about a little water vapor coming up through the slab I wouldn't worry about doing the kerdi band on the seams. The only times I have gone the full waterproof was in a laundry room with a floor drain where the HO was super worried about a leak and a bathroom that had a big shower with no door or curb to the shower. Normal amounts of water vapor will be handled just fine with the ditra.
TheSauceSpot
Member
Really appreciate your input. I did get cracks in my slab as it settled So that was the main concern with tiling it. Hoping to prevent any issues down the road, the red guard is a good option too. Just didn’t want to half *** it!Not quite. There are THREE thicknesses. The middle 0.250" thick one is for a heating cable, and it has columns with rounded corners meant to wrap the cable around.
The thinnest one is the original, and the thickest one is for uses where the original may not have enough give, such as for natural stone over a wood joist floor with too much bounce.
Unless you're adding heat, only the original Ditra makes sense over a concrete slab, and even then, Ditra is probably overkill on a concrete slab for tile purposes. Any liquid applied crack isolation membrane (like RedGard) should be more than enough to handle minor cracks. Maybe something a little better than that would help if you plan to tile over a joint.
I do have a heated floor system in my slab so won’t be needing the thicker ditra for that but do appreciate the info on each use.
TheSauceSpot
Member
That’s a good idea. I can probably ask my contractor that helped with the garage build if he can get me it.
I’m not worried about the waterproofing now that you ask. I do have a drain installed across the entire entrance of my garage door. I genuinely thought that was the standard way of installing it. If I can just use it a precautionary measure or some extra insurance to avoid repairs down the road that is the main purpose of doing it. If red guard or something better gives me the same type of insurance I would go that route. I think my fear is that after my slab was poured some cracks did form eventually and I don’t want to regret not doing something and having a **** tile floor. At that rate I might as well just go epoxy… I hate even saying that lol
duneslider
Well-known member
I personally think ditra is a better product for a floor. You could do the redgard and it will probably be totally fine as well. But also remember that with either product you have to take into account joints in the floor, movement joints, expansion joints, etc. There is a lot to a proper install, not just what you do and don't put on the floor under the tile.
That said, I have used redgard as a crack prevention product and haven't had an issue. I prefer Laticrete Hydro Ban though, I think it is a better product and should be similarly priced just not as easy to get.
That said, I have used redgard as a crack prevention product and haven't had an issue. I prefer Laticrete Hydro Ban though, I think it is a better product and should be similarly priced just not as easy to get.
rlitman
Well-known member
Ohhh. Well, one thing to keep in mind is that Ditra has lots of plateaus formed in the sheet that are permanently filled with air. You attach the bottom flocking to the floor with a layer of thinset, but that doesn't fill in the underside of the profile. You then fill in the top of the profile completely with thinset, but every plateau will remain empty and therefore insulating.
I would look into how the requirements change when putting Ditra over a heated slab (I couldn't find it in a minute or two of looking). There's a possibility you may need to run the slab at a slightly higher temperature in order to compensate for the (relatively low) R value of the Ditra. Google searching is telling me Ditra Heat Duo (which includes a thermal break) has an R value of 0.35, and I would suppose original is much lower, but it's still non-zero. I know when I used an electrically heated mat in my bathroom (over wood, so no need for the thermal break), the manufacturer suggested I mix in a thermally conductive additive (graphite) to the thinset I used to fill in the profile up to flush (the first step after laying down the mat).
TheSauceSpot
Member
Just a quick price comparison. The Laticrete hydro is around 400 for 5 gallons. The red Gard around 150 for 3.5 gallons. That’s definitely a big difference considering I have just over 1,000 sq ft to do.
I have realized the Ditra price goes up a lot once you consider the install, thinset, a lot more labor than rolling out some paint. Hard to swallow that total expense on such a large space and like the post after this mentions with the idea that it almost insulates the floor causing me a potential issue with the heated floor system I think the Ditra is off the table. That Laticrete product being $1,600 minimum to cover 1,000 sq.ft. Is a lot too but at least I can easily do that myself one night.
This is definitely great information from you! Thank you.
TheSauceSpot
Member
This is a great point that I did not consider at first with this product. The price of it plus installing it then adding graphite. Then potentially needing to run my heated floor system hotter. It’s just adding up quick to almost push it off my table of options.
Leaning towards the red gard or laticrete roll on membrane right now but trying to do more research on each.
I’m also not sure how well it will Adhere to my power trowled smooth surface. (Regret paying extra for that now) Do you think I need to grind that down now before any membrane layer can adhere? It is Not sealed but they did use the giant fan looking machine and got it very Smooth - @duneslider - any input on that? Does the surface need to be ground down just to begin?
rlitman
Well-known member
For in-plane crack isolation (nothing will help you with uplift), they're probably better than ditra anyway, but there are peel and stick membranes that can supposedly handle more than the liquid products if your slab is really bad (I think mainly because they're thicker). With a new slab, we don't know it's history, but if we assume it was done right, then we're all way overthinking this.
duneslider
Well-known member
There are dozens of ways to skin this cat. I just want to put this out there though. Tile is a premium product and you should expect to pay a premium price for it to be done right.
Now, there are levels of installation that you can hit. With each level risk is shifted. As a contractor I had to assess the level of risk I was willing to take and what type of business I wanted to run. I will say I only use ditra on floors in my own house and most of the time for paying customers.
If a tile floor fails, there is only one way to fix it and that is a complete tear out. So, just remember that.
Here are your options (some of them anyway).
1. Just thinset tile down with regular thinset. This is still very likely to work well and potentially could last a lifetime if it is done well. You could have some Efflorescence issues if there are water issues under the slab and you haven't done anything to prevent cracking which may or may not ever be an issue. This would be good for a radiant floor.
2. Use a high quality flexible thinset (FlexBond is one example). This is still very likely to work well and potentially could last a lifetime if it is done well. Again, you could still have some issues with Efflorescence but it would do a lot to prevent movement cracking. This will be a slightly less good option for radiant floor. This thinset has more polymers in it so not quite as good heat transfer but I have no idea how much different but probably not enough to worry about.
3. Use a liquid membrane. (You do get what you pay for so remember that). (I'm not saying Redgard is bad but I haven't used it in 20+ years) This will decrease the efflorescence potential and help with cracking. It will also decrease the heat transfer some amount, again, no idea how much but probably not that much in all reality.
4. Crack Isolation membrane or uncoupling membrane (ie. Ditra, Nobleseal, etc). These will do the best job of preventing moisture, efflorescence, and cracking. Hands down the best option. These will be a little worse for heat transfer but I think that talk is overstating an issue.
I really don't think any of these would negatively impact radiant heating in any way. I have haven't seen any data to show that but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I would also push for something to help with movement more with radiant since it will be heating and cooling with causes the tile to expand and contract. Tile and concrete don't expand and contract at the same rate.
Tile and thinset are both pretty good conductors of heat and will absorb and release heat similar to how concrete does. It is not going to act as an insulated layer.
Now, I am not a guy who would ever tile his garage but if this were a kitchen on a slab I can guarantee you I would be pushing ditra, and honoring control joints, and making sure I had proper movement joints, and left my perimeter clear. Is a garage going to take more or less punishment than a kitchen? Only you can decide what makes sense for you and and your situation. I will also say I am not aware of any floor I properly installed with a good quality thinset straight to concrete that failed. If budget really is an issue I would push towards Option 2 and make sure the install is spot on.
Also, good thinset will stick to trowel finished concrete better than it will stick to porcelain tile.
Now, there are levels of installation that you can hit. With each level risk is shifted. As a contractor I had to assess the level of risk I was willing to take and what type of business I wanted to run. I will say I only use ditra on floors in my own house and most of the time for paying customers.
If a tile floor fails, there is only one way to fix it and that is a complete tear out. So, just remember that.
Here are your options (some of them anyway).
1. Just thinset tile down with regular thinset. This is still very likely to work well and potentially could last a lifetime if it is done well. You could have some Efflorescence issues if there are water issues under the slab and you haven't done anything to prevent cracking which may or may not ever be an issue. This would be good for a radiant floor.
2. Use a high quality flexible thinset (FlexBond is one example). This is still very likely to work well and potentially could last a lifetime if it is done well. Again, you could still have some issues with Efflorescence but it would do a lot to prevent movement cracking. This will be a slightly less good option for radiant floor. This thinset has more polymers in it so not quite as good heat transfer but I have no idea how much different but probably not enough to worry about.
3. Use a liquid membrane. (You do get what you pay for so remember that). (I'm not saying Redgard is bad but I haven't used it in 20+ years) This will decrease the efflorescence potential and help with cracking. It will also decrease the heat transfer some amount, again, no idea how much but probably not that much in all reality.
4. Crack Isolation membrane or uncoupling membrane (ie. Ditra, Nobleseal, etc). These will do the best job of preventing moisture, efflorescence, and cracking. Hands down the best option. These will be a little worse for heat transfer but I think that talk is overstating an issue.
I really don't think any of these would negatively impact radiant heating in any way. I have haven't seen any data to show that but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I would also push for something to help with movement more with radiant since it will be heating and cooling with causes the tile to expand and contract. Tile and concrete don't expand and contract at the same rate.
Tile and thinset are both pretty good conductors of heat and will absorb and release heat similar to how concrete does. It is not going to act as an insulated layer.
Now, I am not a guy who would ever tile his garage but if this were a kitchen on a slab I can guarantee you I would be pushing ditra, and honoring control joints, and making sure I had proper movement joints, and left my perimeter clear. Is a garage going to take more or less punishment than a kitchen? Only you can decide what makes sense for you and and your situation. I will also say I am not aware of any floor I properly installed with a good quality thinset straight to concrete that failed. If budget really is an issue I would push towards Option 2 and make sure the install is spot on.
Also, good thinset will stick to trowel finished concrete better than it will stick to porcelain tile.
TheSauceSpot
Member
This reply hits the nail on the head man. I also skimmed over some threads with sealers and ts210 being used. I may go with the ts210 for now. Seems to be the most affordable option and I actually like the look of the bare concrete. I also don’t want to build a garage that I am now scared to hurt/use- a cheap, easily touched up option like a sealer seems to just make sense for now.
Got quotes on epoxy, tile, broke down the price of doing both myself as I am fairly handy. Even getting tile at cost it’s still a risk like you mentioned.
Ts210 seems to offer the best value. And if I hate it eventually I can see what is available at that time.
I want to say I saw a thread where you mentioned using either the ts210 or ps100 variants.
duneslider
Well-known member
If I ever get around to doing anything on my garage floor it would be a sealer like you mentioned. Although, my wife saw a garage with racedeck and said she liked it at least until she heard what it cost...
I'm cheap and lazy and think concrete works just fine the way it is but a sealer likely could help it clean up a little easier and make it look a touch better.