Toilet leaking at base

[Uncle Ben]

Hey everyone. I'm not sure if this particular forum is okay for this question, but I did not find a more suitable one.
I have a small, fully finished, wood framed "shed" type of building that is used as a guest house. It has a plywood subfloor and thin faux wood flooring. I discovered that the toilet bowl was not holding a normal water level and it was leaking at the base of the toilet, which has since warped the flooring a bit, but this floor has suffered from water damage in the past, due to busted pipes after a hard freeze, so the flooring has various places that it is peeling up, which you'll see in the photos. This may be a factor in the toilet leak, but replacing the floor is not an option right now, just fyi.

I replaced the wax ring and re-set the toilet, and used a deep wax ring with a built-in flange, but it leaked just as bad. I decided that since the existing toilet bracket already has a built-in flange that I should probably use a wax ring without a flange, but I still used a thick wax ring...and it still leaked.

The next time I went with the thinnest ring, since the flange is above the floor surface, and I thought the thick ring might be overkill, and this time I also realized that the toilet bracket was not secure and the screws were all loose and could be pulled up with little effort. I rotated the bracket and screwed it down with new screws, so it is much more secure now. I had also bought toilet shims this time, to ensure the toilet would not rock at all, but after setting the toilet, and testing it for rocking, it did not rock at all, so that does not seem to be the issue. I also ran screws through the flooring in various places underneath where the toilet sits, just to help it sit as flat as possible...but the toilet still leaked after securing it.

I have set several new toilets over the years, but have never had an issue with leaks on any of them, so I'm not sure what I'm missing here, and am looking for suggestions on what I need to do differently.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!

 

[Shiftless]

Might that water be coming from the tank? Assuming it is a 2 piece toilet, the 2 bolts, the places where the tank bolts on to the bowl, is a possible source of leaks.

 

[FrankLee]

It looks like there's either a clog in the drain pipe or the tank is leaking.

The wax looks like it sealed, but I would still use a cone wax ring.

Is this on a slab, a crawl space, a basement?

 

[rlitman]

Are you sure the drain isn't clogged beneath the toilet? That's not the cause of the wax failure, but it doesn't help, and it's why you're seeing so much water there.

The wax IS still failed, if water is getting out. Wax is fine for a rock solid floor, but if the toilet has ANY movement (and it shouldn't regardless, but your floor probably has too much flex to begin with), wax is going to fail. I recommend the Fluidmaster Better Than Wax seal. The silicone gasket will handle anything the toilet flushes, and the closed cell foam underneath it seals against any air that might escape.

In theory, if the drain works, no liquid should ever reach the foam. But in your case with a clogged drain, I'd say you need to fix that first.

 

[Shiftless]

But in your case with a clogged drain,…

Does the O.P. have a clogged toilet drain?

 

[Uncle Ben]

Hey FrankLee. It is a wood-framed building sitting up on blocks, so it has a crawlspace. It has metal siding, so it's basically a nice "shed" building. I mis-called it a "ring with a flange" in my original post, but it was a cone wax ring that I used the first time. I later read that if the toilet flange has a cone, then the ring should not have a cone, so that is why I did not use a ring with a cone the 2nd time. When I did use the cone ring on the first replacement, it leaked right away. I guess I'll need to also check to make sure the tank is not leaking.

Hey Shiftless, good question about the tank. I should have checked out, but the way the water pools out from the left side of the toilet base makes it seem like it is not the tank, and each time I have picked up the toilet to attempt the repair (yet again), it has not felt wet on the outside of the toilet below the tank...but I will definitely check that closely, regardless.

 

[FrankLee]

Is the drain vented? Possibly clogged with a bird nest or other critter debris that fell down?

 

[Uncle Ben]

Wow, the responses are coming in quick. You guys are amazing!!
Each time I have replaced the wax ring (3x at this point), I fill and flush the toilet to re-test it, and it flushes completely normal, so there does not seem to be a clog.

rlitman, I will try the Fluidmaster Better Than Wax seal next, especially if that is supposed to be a better option for a floor that is not 100% solid.

 

[Uncle Ben]

FrankLee, the drain is vented, but crudely, since this is basically a glorified shed building, so the vent is just a 4" pvc pipe that rises up 5-6 ft on the back side of the building on the way to the septic system. There is no covering over the top of the vent, so it is possible that it could be clogged...but I should note that the toilet flushes perfectly fine.

 

[OldDoItAll]

You said, "I discovered that the toilet bowl was not holding a normal water level". I'm not a plumber but to me that would indicate that the bowl itself is leaking. A leaking wax ring or stopped up drain would not cause the water level in the bowl to drop.

 

[FrankLee]

Assuming it's an older 3 gallon tank, try pouring 3 gallons of water into the drain from a bucket.

If the vent is clogged, the water in the bowl could be siphoning out.

 

[FrankLee]

I recommend the Fluidmaster Better Than Wax seal.

Over the past four weeks, we had a bathroom completely remodeled. Our contractor use that seal. I used the toilet for the first time this morning and it took a good punch. I would use those in the future.

 

[cgrutt]

Not sure if this was already asked or not so apologies if already covered but is it leaking only when flushed or is tank losing water when at rest (no flush)? If the latter case could be bad seals in tank to bowl connection, a bad hose/gasket at water supply or a cracked tank. If leak occurs only when flushed points to bad wax ring or flange.

 

[rlitman]

Does the O.P. have a clogged toilet drain?

Yes, even if he thinks he doesn't.

edit: just thinking this through to completion and had to add:
If the drain works as intended, it is supposed to take water faster than the toilet can deliver. Which means that you shouldn't even get water on the floor if you bolt down the toilet without any wax.

You said, "I discovered that the toilet bowl was not holding a normal water level"...

That was the reason for my last bathroom renovation, and it's a red flag. My toilet hardly ever flushed right, and many times (but not always) I'd find the bowl water level low. There are a few things that can cause this, but the most likely is a slow flush.

Ideally (In a regular American toilet), a flush should clear the bowl almost completely, and then the fill valve directly refills the bowl with the hose that sprays into the tank overflow tube while it's simultaneously refilling the tank. If everything goes right, the bowl is full at the same time as the tank.

When the drain is partially clogged, the pipe stays full of water following the flush. That full drain pipe then siphons the bowl down while the bowl is being refilled, as the pipe drains over the next few seconds. The short length of pipe that's filling has enough volume to empty the bowl, but not much more than that, so the bowl may appear to flush (perhaps even "normally"), but the water hasn't made it out to the sewer.

In my case, about 8' downstream of the toilet, a san-tee was installed horizontally (and oriented backwards) where the tub drain entered and merged with the toilet drain. So solids getting flushed could hang up on that Y. But the problem here could be with a vent, or an incorrectly pitched pipe, a vertical drop meeting a horizontal drain without a wye-T, or any of a number of causes.

 

[Uncle Ben]

I will try pouring 3 gallons of water directly down the drain to check for a clog, and I'll be checking the vent pipe as well.

Also, if I do have a clogged drain, what would be the best way to unclog it without having the toilet seated?

 

[Uncle Ben]

.

 

[FrankLee]

Depending on the length and turns of the drain, a snake would be best, but a (old) garden hose may work. Running water from the hose down the vent may clear that too if clogged.

 

[rlitman]

I will try pouring 3 gallons of water directly down the drain to check for a clog, and I'll be checking the vent pipe as well.

Also, if I do have a clogged drain, what would be the best way to unclog it without having the toilet seated?

Well, assuming the flange seal is solid, I'd try that. But I wouldn't test with a bucket of water if there's any risk of it flooding the floor more. That's another reason I like the Better Than Wax seal. I've seen too many wax seals blow out when people try to clean a toilet line with a bucket of hot water. Wax can't take heat, pressure, or movement.

As for a clog, that's hard to say. It depends on how far down the line it is and how your drain is laid out. Dish soap and a hose might work (I've filled buckets in an adjacent tub when the hose was inconvenient). A toilet auger has about 3' of reach past the flange, so it's mainly designed to clean the lead bend. A drill snake isn't intended to be used in the toilet itself, so you'd need to pull the toilet again (another reason I dislike wax) and stick the snake in the flange. The snake will follow the drain path, but not the vent (unless something was installed incorrectly). If you have access to the vent pipe and it's plastic and there's no way in, you could cut it and reconnect with a clamp fitting, or install a proper cleanout tee for auger access.

 

[Uncle Ben]

The toilet drain pipe comes out from under the crawlspace, and the vent pipe is coming up from a Y, just before the drain pipe goes into the ground, so I can remove the vent pipe and clean out at that Y.

 

[driftpin]

Put some blue food coloring in the tank and see where it leaks from. You can also put some in the bowl, and not the tank, and see what happens.

At a rental single family residence (SFR) we had a 'leaking yellow stuff' complaint, about the base of one of the toilets. Fortunately it's a 3/2-1/2, so the tenants were still able to be there.

The house has a crawl space. I've been in there many times for something or another. For this, we called a local plumber, they have been in business 100 years.

The waste pipe through the CBS foundation wall was blocked on its way to the front yard and the city sewer connection. We recently had the few remaining 4", 3" or 2" ductile cast-iron replaced, except for the vent stack for the bathroom giving trouble. Replacing that would be an expensive job.

The recent work on the other bathroom was all-new PVC Sch. 40 leading down to a 4" PVC waste pipe making its way to the CBS wall where the 25' run to the street sewer connection was. That was still 4" ductile cast iron. The plumber was the same one we had used before, and he had done the ductile cast iron replacement. He scoped the 4" waste pipe in the front yard and he found a blockage, nearly complete. Out came the industrial snake, 15' lengths, it took 3 from the side-yard 4" PVC cleanout I had asked for when that bathroom was remodeled, to clear the blockage. A yard water hose was running into the cleanout while the snake was working. After cleaning the obstruction, the camera scope showed a clean waste pipe all the way to the point of connecting to the city street pipe.

They did a good job, they used maybe 6 gallons of enzymes to battle the offal spilled, and about a week later, lime was spread at those places. No smell perceived by the tenants.

The toilet at the problem bathroom? The waste pipe to that branch had filled with water and t.p and offal, and the cause was the blockage at the main waste line. The wax seal had failed, and they installed a new one, and with the downstream obstruction cleared, everything worked as it was supposed to.

We warned the residents to only put t.p. and whatever they first had eaten into the toilet, and do not flush 'personal wipes,' "flushable" toilet cleaning pads, cat or dog litter (they have 2 cats and a dog) or anything else into the toilet.

I have a nice video of the scope ramming-into the blockage, and the hose stream washing it away into the city sewer.


Not sure what the hell this **** is, looks like that flat plastic carton wrapping tape you secure w/a banding tool. This is the business-end of the plumber's pro-quality coiled 'snake' and what it captured.

 

[gleman]

Put some blue food coloring in the tank and see where it leaks from. You can also put some in the bowl, and not the tank, and see what happens.

At a rental single family residence (SFR) we had a 'leaking yellow stuff' complaint, about the base of one of the toilets. Fortunately it's a 3/2-1/2, so the tenants were still able to be there.

The house has a crawl space. I've been in there many times for something or another. For this, we called a local plumber, they have been in business 100 years.

The waste pipe through the CBS foundation wall was blocked on its way to the front yard and the city sewer connection. We recently had the few remaining 4", 3" or 2" ductile cast-iron replaced, except for the vent stack for the bathroom giving trouble. Replacing that would be an expensive job.

The recent work on the other bathroom was all-new PVC Sch. 40 leading down to a 4" PVC waste pipe making its way to the CBS wall where the 25' run to the street sewer connection was. That was still 4" ductile cast iron. The plumber was the same one we had used before, and he had done the ductile cast iron replacement. He scoped the 4" waste pipe in the front yard and he found a blockage, nearly complete. Out came the industrial snake, 15' lengths, it took 3 from the side-yard 4" PVC cleanout I had asked for when that bathroom was remodeled, to clear the blockage. A yard water hose was running into the cleanout while the snake was working. After cleaning the obstruction, the camera scope showed a clean waste pipe all the way to the point of connecting to the city street pipe.

They did a good job, they used maybe 6 gallons of enzymes to battle the offal spilled, and about a week later, lime was spread at those places. No smell perceived by the tenants.

The toilet at the problem bathroom? The waste pipe to that branch had filled with water and t.p and offal, and the cause was the blockage at the main waste line. The wax seal had failed, and they installed a new one, and with the downstream obstruction cleared, everything worked as it was supposed to.

We warned the residents to only put t.p. and whatever they first had eaten into the toilet, and do not flush 'personal wipes,' "flushable" toilet cleaning pads, cat or dog litter (they have 2 cats and a dog) or anything else into the toilet.

I have a nice video of the scope ramming-into the blockage, and the hose stream washing it away into the city sewer.


Not sure what the hell this **** is, looks like that flat plastic carton wrapping tape you secure w/a banding tool. This is the business-end of the plumber's pro-quality coiled 'snake' and what it captured.

I bought a jetter kit for my pressure washer to clear a storm water line and the **** that came out of it was unidentifiable too.

I've become a fan of this guy.

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[The Cobbler]

I discovered that the toilet bowl was not holding a normal water level and it was leaking at the base of the toilet, which has since warped the flooring a bit, but this floor has suffered from water damage in the past, due to busted pipes after a hard freeze,

cracked toilet as a result of the freeze?

 

[gleman]

I'd check the tank to bowl gasket. The wax ring looks like it had a good seal to me.

 

[gleman]

cracked toilet as a result of the freeze?

That might be hard to see but if the water was weeping through a crack there should be a green, brown or black streak going toward the floor.

 

[PCustoms]

That flange should be on top of the flooring...

 

[Uncle Ben]

I'll check the toilet for a possible crack in it.
The busted pipes from a past freeze was from 3 years ago, after which we replaced the PVC water lines with pex. Then the next winter we kept the water trickled, and one day I went in there to check on it and the water had frozen in the sink, yet the faucet was still trickling out and the water was just overflowing from the sink onto the floor, so after that I realized that just trickling the water was not going to be enough and I would need to heat the room as well, which I did this past winter.

 

[whateg01]

Depending on the length and turns of the drain, a snake would be best, but a (old) garden hose may work. Running water from the hose down the vent may clear that too if clogged.

I wouldn't drink from that hose afterward

 

[HoosierMark]

I would not use dye to test for leaks. Just get a toilet bowl cleaner that turns water blue. It will indicate leakage. Toilets are pretty simple. Flush it, let it refill, shut the water supply off. Does the tank go down or the bowl go down? That will indicate a problem. If you can dump a couple of gallons of water in bowl and it flushes quickly, line is open. I have 40 some toilets I take care of, I always use a wax ring with a rubber part that fits in drain. My maintenance man recently told me he has been using the plastic rings with good success. First you isolate the problem then you fix it. If the tank goes down either the bolts securing the tank to the bowl or lose or the rubber ring between them is bad but that is unusual.

 

[dscheidt]

I would not use dye to test for leaks. Just get a toilet bowl cleaner that turns water blue. It will indicate leakage. Toilets are pretty simple. Flush it, let it refill, shut the water supply off. Does the tank go down or the bowl go down? That will indicate a problem. If you can dump a couple of gallons of water in bowl and it flushes quickly, line is open. I have 40 some toilets I take care of, I always use a wax ring with a rubber part that fits in drain. My maintenance man recently told me he has been using the plastic rings with good success. First you isolate the problem then you fix it. If the tank goes down either the bolts securing the tank to the bowl or lose or the rubber ring between them is bad but that is unusual.

or the tank is leaking. I recently replaced a toilet because the porcelain in the back of the tank was porous, and water was getting through it. It's possible it was cracked, but there wasn't a visible one.

Some water is very hard on the rubber parts, and the bowl tank gaskets fail.

 

[BillK]

I might have missed it in your comments but is it leaking all of the time or only when you flush it ?? How about taking the toilet outside and sit it on a clean dry surface. The pour a couple of gallons of water in the tank and see if it leaks out ??

 

[HoosierMark]

FYI a boot tray is very handy for sitting the toilet on when you pull it. It can even be set on a HF dolly to roll it around for removal. The tray has a nice lip to contain the water that might spill out and the wax ring remnants. A small shop vac is handy for water removal from tank and bowl also.

 

[rlitman]

FYI a boot tray is very handy for sitting the toilet on when you pull it. It can even be set on a HF dolly to roll it around for removal. The tray has a nice lip to contain the water that might spill out and the wax ring remnants. A small shop vac is handy for water removal from tank and bowl also.

I love my M18 wet/dry vac for stuff like this. **** up the last inch of water in the tank, and if you remembered to do a thorough cleaning, you can **** up water from the bowl too.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Thanks again everyone for the great feedback. I poured 3-4 gallons of water down the drain to make sure it drained quickly without any slowing (also did this at the drain waste vent/cleanout), and the water did not back up at all.

After checking that first, I finally discovered the issue as I was scraping off the last wax ring that I had installed, and while doing that I saw a small chip out of the porcelain on the underside of the toilet next to where the was ring sits. I wanted to be 100% sure that water was coming out from that chipped area, so I set the toilet on a step, hanging halfway off, and poured water in the bowl and got down on the ground to look up at the underside of the toilet and sure enough, water was coming out at the chipped area.

I had already bought a "better than wax" ring this time in case the uneven floor was the issue, but now I know that no matter how many new rings I put on there, it was never going to stop leaking, so I'll be buying a new toilet today.

 

[FullRaceMerc]

Congrats on figuring it out.

I've set a lot of toilets. And had a brand new customer-provided leaky toilet drive me nuts. As per usual I installed it & tested repeatedly as I continued my work. 3 or 4 flushes in it started leaking around the base.

It was one of those where the bolts are hidden in the side, which makes it awkward to set. The 1st time I figured I had fouled up the gasket while trying to find the holes. The 2nd & 3rd times I placed it on 2x4s, aligned it over the bolts, & set it straight down. When it leaked the 3rd time I took it to the shop to test.

With it sitting on saw horses, I filled the tank with a hose. Then looked underneath as it was flushed. 3 flushes were fine. The 4th flush & water started flowing from the front of the bowl.

Turns out it had a manufacturing defect. There was sort of a pocket up front that would hold a little leaky water each flush. By the 4th it was overflowing. Back to the plumbing house to show them the video. They were excited to see it, since they'd had several returned prior. What? You're still selling these with a known problem? Since the customer had provided the toilet, I wasn't on the hook for the warranty work. I charged the customer & he got credit from the plumbing house.



There are some things we normally do to prevent leaks. 1st it to make sure the flange is solid. If the toilet wiggles, the wax ring will eventually fail. We go under the house & make sure there is blocking under the flange screws. And add it if there's not.

I don't ever use the wax ring with the horn. I used to, but realized that with a 2" outlet from the toilet aimed into a 4" pipe there was no reason to have a funnel in between. It's just an unnecessary choke point.

Even though the instructions say to put the ring on the toilet, then set the toilet on the flange, I set the ring on the flange. That's where the alignment is critical, not the bottom of the toilet. Plus you don't have to worry about the wax falling off as you position the toilet over the hole.

Make sure the wax is room temperature. Too cold & it can crack.

Use plastic shims if needed if there's a gap that allows the toilet to rock. If you are using longer shims, be sure to not hit the wax with the shim.

Once the toilet is set & passes the testing, silicone it to the floor. Without that it can rotate over time. It looks bad crooked, & the movement can cause the wax to fail. The silicone also locks in the shims & hides them. I always leave a small opening at the rear. That way if the ring leaks it puts water on the floor where someone can see it, instead of holding it & rotting the subfloor.

I haven't tried the newer non-wax seals. After 40 something years I have a routine that works consistantly, & see no reason to risk a call back. Maybe the next time I set one at home I'll give it a try.

 

[driftpin]

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[The Cobbler]

good find on the leak > Glad you got it figured out

 

[Tchicken]

I am about to find out how good the synthetic rings are .. 50 year old toilet replacement in progress. The tank to bowl connecting bolts were so rusted one needed to be cut off ..

 

[Uncle Ben]

FullRaceMerc, thanks for the many great tips there!

 

[DGersic]

After checking that first, I finally discovered the issue as I was scraping off the last wax ring that I had installed, and while doing that I saw a small chip out of the porcelain on the underside of the toilet next to where the was ring sits. I wanted to be 100% sure that water was coming out from that chipped area, so I set the toilet on a step, hanging halfway off, and poured water in the bowl and got down on the ground to look up at the underside of the toilet and sure enough, water was coming out at the chipped area.

Pictures of this?

 

[Uncle Ben]